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JG52XRay
05-31-2004, 10:19 PM
After long hours of flying all the planes in this sim and after many books i have read it is clear that for some reason the fw190 is being put on the butchblock ..data from test pilots at wright field 1944 shows the fw190 pilots seat was well placed to inhibit blackouts and if a pilot tries to turn the fw190 in this sim they blackout for an ungodly time ......and i have flown all the russain planes and found that not only do they turn faster at higher rate of speed the blackout is minamal to none at all now will you explain to me to reason geforce is not apllied to la and yak or why it is 50 X worse in fw190 i think some documented proof of this is in need for i am looseing my pateints with the constant casteration of the fw190

JG52XRay
05-31-2004, 10:19 PM
After long hours of flying all the planes in this sim and after many books i have read it is clear that for some reason the fw190 is being put on the butchblock ..data from test pilots at wright field 1944 shows the fw190 pilots seat was well placed to inhibit blackouts and if a pilot tries to turn the fw190 in this sim they blackout for an ungodly time ......and i have flown all the russain planes and found that not only do they turn faster at higher rate of speed the blackout is minamal to none at all now will you explain to me to reason geforce is not apllied to la and yak or why it is 50 X worse in fw190 i think some documented proof of this is in need for i am looseing my pateints with the constant casteration of the fw190

3.JG51_BigBear
05-31-2004, 10:49 PM
I always thought that the point at which the pilots blacks out is constant for all a/c. As for the seat in the FW's, they reclined on stiff springs to help eliviate g-forces. I doubt its modeled in the game.

LEXX_Luthor
05-31-2004, 11:51 PM
In the Difficulty Menu you can turn off Blackout


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:
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Stalker58
06-01-2004, 04:49 AM
_______________________________________
In the Difficulty Menu you can turn off Blackout
_______________________________________

..not online on FR servers I afraid.

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

Willey
06-01-2004, 05:04 AM
In all planes the pilot blacks out at 7g. Having it later in FWs would mean individual black out level for each plane, and that's quite much work to research all the data needed for modelling this. Maybe the BoB will feature this.

Zen--
06-01-2004, 05:59 AM
Lots of things are wrong with the 190's in game and have been since the IL2 original days...but the plane is not crippled or impotent, infact these days its more powerful than it ever was back then despite the imperfections we see.

It may very well be that the blackout comes on sooner in a 190 than in other planes. It may also be that the forward view may be incorrect. The stall modelling might be overly done. It may not accelerate as well as it did in real life nor climb as well.

It may or may not have these things wrong with it and for some it's easy to get blame the game, the model or that the other guy has it easy in his Yak or whatever. But the plane is still dangerous despite these limitations and it is still possible to get kills in it.

When you boil down to it, the plane is as deadly as you want it to be. It will do some things well. There are some things that it cannot and should not do however and the 190 pilot, perhaps more than others, really has to understand his plane's strengths and weakenesses. He must be able to compensate for the disadvantages it naturally has due to it's design and the way it's modelled and he must be able to compensate for the intangibles that may be wrong as well, like black outs, stalls and other things we all complain about.

To be successful in the 190 you have to be able to take it as it is and learn to fight in a manner where all of it's disadvantages are minimized as much as they can be. That means don't be in a position where the blackout modelling is even a question...attack in another fashion so that you don't have to pull G's and risk incipient spin, blackout and E bleed.


This is what I love (and hate) about the 190. It's not an easy plane to fly. It's still one of the most complexly modelled planes in the game even though to the casual observer it may not seem like it. It is the kind of plane that really does take extensive practice to get good results with and one that really does have the performance available but that at the same time requires great care to extract.

My only suggestion is that if you think that the blackout modelling is worse in the 190 than other planes, learn to fly where you don't need it. E fighting is a good example and is something that the 190 is pretty good at...and as an E fighter, the thought of pulling a blackout turn never enters your mind because of how wasteful it is for energy.

Patience is key with the 190, that and a light hand on the stick. Take the long view when flying it and don't be in a hurry in a dogfight...use proper E fighting discipline and let the aggressor manuever himself into a bad position.


To me flying a 190 is like practicing the art of aerial Judo...be subtle and use the enemies energy against him.


Just my thoughts, S!~

-Zen-

VW-IceFire
06-01-2004, 02:52 PM
I think Oleg has mentioned that advantages and disadvantages from the pilot being in one place or another with regards to G forces is not modeled. There's only so much CPU power to go around...

FW190 is the best fighter available for the Axis side as far as I'm concerned. The Dora is an absolute joy to fly (in 2.01 is back to being VERY deadly). You NEED to understand your plane and be familiar with how you will engage an enemy and follow them through various manuvers (in a FW190 you never follow, you end up where they will be to shoot them).

I'm with what Zen said...know the plane and avoid the situations that you shouldn't be in.

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BigKahuna_GS
06-01-2004, 03:27 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ _______________________
data from test pilots at wright field 1944 shows the fw190 pilots seat was well placed to inhibit blackouts and if a pilot tries to turn the fw190 in this sim they blackout for an ungodly time .
__________________________________________________ ________________________


You should try flying the P51, you black out faster than any other high speed plane. I think there is a link between high speed and lag issues online, blackouts can be pretty severe. Even very subtile adjustments during high speed can bring on graying/blacking out from my experience.

Oleg has said that german & russian planes had reclining seats so he gave them a higher g-load tolerance than US & British planes. From the summer of 1944, all 8th Air Force fighter pilots were issued G-suits. I imagine that at some point Brit pilots were issued G-suits also. Oleg has said that he might consider modeling g-suit usage in. I have sent him information about 8th Air Force fighter pilots being issued G-suits but I have heard nothing back.


________

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



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faustnik
06-01-2004, 03:35 PM
I agree with Kahuna. The P-51 blackout is as bad or worse.

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VMF-214_HaVoK
06-01-2004, 03:43 PM
Im not sure if the Mustangs blackout is worse or not. But I do know I have had blackouts that last for about 10 secs and more. I havent flown the 190 enough comment on its length of blackouts. Im sure they are just as bad.

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BBB_Hyperion
06-01-2004, 11:41 PM
With the Autolink Interface you are able to track the g load of every plane . You will find that the g load is the only factor for blackout in a plane in fb. Differences on pilot seating postion are not modeled. Blackouts on 190s were really rare.

Regards,
Hyperion

LEXX_Luthor
06-02-2004, 01:13 AM
Hyperion:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Differences on pilot seating postion are not modeled.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, that's another thing. If the seat is at the center of gravity the pilot gee loads felt are minimized.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

IKNO
06-02-2004, 01:18 AM
Wow.

Zen's post was perhaps the most eloquent and accurate prescription for 190 flying I have ever encountered.

BigKahuna_GS
06-02-2004, 04:36 AM
S!

Yes very nice post Zen. There are several planes that take considerable thought in flying and tactical analysis in order to survive, the P38 and P47 come to mind.

__________________________________________________ _________________________
BBB_Hyperion

posted 01-06-04 22:41
With the Autolink Interface you are able to track the g load of every plane . You will find that the g load is the only factor for blackout in a plane in fb. Differences on pilot seating postion are not modeled. Blackouts on 190s were really rare.
__________________________________________________ __________________________



I have been communicating with Oleg over the last 4 months about G-suits and black outs when pulling G's. I have it in an email that Oleg sent to me that he factored in the position of the seat in german & russain planes. Maybe something has changed during the patch, but it was very clear to me that german and russian planes would have a slight advantage and black out later than US and Brit planes.


____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

EFG_Zeb
06-02-2004, 04:49 AM
LEXX LUTHOR said "Yes, that's another thing. If the seat is at the center of gravity the pilot gee loads felt are minimized."

I'm affraid this is wrong Lexx, G load acts the same all over the airplane, whether the seat is at the CG or not. Now for blackout or redout, it is a biological matter. A reclined seat makes the distance between the heart and the feet (or head) of the pilot less, in effect delaying the onset of blackout or redout...

"See, Decide, Attack, Reverse or Coffee Break" E.H.

WWMaxGunz
06-02-2004, 06:06 AM
Hyperion, can you say where to get this G-meter software? I know of Devicelink but
not where the program you mention is.


Neal

Seal306Tigers
06-02-2004, 01:26 PM
Hi XRay

about ur question i can tell u that i blackout in LA5 or 7 more then i want and longer to...sometimes untill crash...u know it depends of speed and how u push your stick...but also the way u have set the stick on FB....u can't expect to have the same results on diferent planes if the settings of stick are the same....well thats my opinion of a gammer...not as blue or red..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifoverall the planes are ok, i guess..

regards

306TigerSeal

S!

BBB_Hyperion
06-02-2004, 01:35 PM
Found the display program on russian forum suchoi.ru udpspeed is the name forgot the link when needed can upload on my webspace. You can change request string and instrument look with it to create a g instrument.

Did also a program that logs gamedata to a file for fm analysis.

Regards,
Hyperion

JG52XRay
06-07-2004, 05:12 PM
Thanks to all for your input about blackouts and i do agree with most but , as far as why the fw190 is subject to such bad blackouts is still my question if the seats are not modeled and G's are a result of speed and centrifical force should'nt the results be faily equile in most all planes .......I have been flying online sims for over 5 years and have been a fw190 jock all but the 1st few months I have a great rep as a fw pilot and know what she can do and more so what not to do with this thoughobred of a fighter but this is the first sim that I ecountered that has taken away pros that the fw190 had and this consernes me.......and when i host a server with the blkouts disabled im badgered about it by ppl who fly the other planes i mentioned that are not hindered by blkouts.....i just say this is how we make the blkouts even and more fair .........but would it not be easy for oleg to just get a little more balanced with the g force effects in the game .....as one of you say seats are not modeled and g force IS g force .......it seems to me that there has to be individual data for each type plane so why not set them more balanced and more true
anyway thats where my thinking is ty &lt;S&gt;JG52*XRay

LEXX_Luthor
06-07-2004, 07:05 PM
What happened to that high Fw elevator authority? Is that why the Fw simmers are blacking out more?

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fehler
06-08-2004, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
What happened to that high Fw elevator authority? Is that why the Fw simmers are blacking out more?:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly Lexx! In fact, I am a fan of reducing the balckouts and structural failures of P51 wings! Why? Because then I will be able to turn inside of them at high speeds in my "Blacking-out-190!"

What people here are failing to realize is the blackouts (Supposedly) happen at the same G amount. If you blackout faster than your opposition, that means you can pull those G's (Turn tighter at high speeds) than he can.

Defensively, that means he cant follow your move. Offensively that mean you can pull lead shot on him at highspeeds when he is floundering around trung to turn fast. Either way, the plane that can blackout faster can reach it's sharper instantaneous turn rate faster.

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WWMaxGunz
06-08-2004, 02:28 AM
What happened to FW elevator authority?

It got more, so blackout is quicker with more G's reached.

P-51 even moreso, wings able to snap off at lower speeds and some imply strongly
it is weak wings not quicker response.

Which plane should have the higher pitch agility at high speed? 109 has the least
at highspeed and maybe most at lowspeed, no?

FW's didn't get blackouts fast enough so there was a post campaign for more elevator
and now... blackouts easier but still not enough elevator???? Crazy! Or something.


Neal

Fehler
06-08-2004, 02:37 AM
No, no, that's not what Im saying Neal. First off, if a person is routinly blacking out in a 190, he is not flying the bird properly. He is making his maneuvers too sharply and the plane will bleed too much energy. That is auto-death in a 190; speed is everything.

What I am saying is that I invite P51 drivers to get their black-outs reduced, even eliminated. (That would mean that they cant pull the sharp turns that I can in a 190 and I will be better off.. hehe)

It's kind of like the 50 cal spread issue. I hope they get that to a tighter pattern. Most of the people I have flown against would miss me a lot more if they didnt have that 50 cal shotgun pattern! So, by all means, lets make the 50 grouping tighter! LOL!

You see, the very things people cry about are the things that actually play into their advantage (Sometimes). So I really dont mind correcting those issues.. heh

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JG5_UnKle
06-08-2004, 06:11 AM
Sssssh ! Fehler
Don't give the whole game away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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