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Anca1ag0n
07-10-2004, 12:52 PM
I have a really stupid idea to offload - sorry everyone.

I've just been reading (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=399105135) a thread about the seemingly miraculous performance of the American P51's and P47's that fought in Operation Bodenplatte (new years day 1945). Heavily outnumbered by LW fighters, and with tactical disadvantage, they managed to dispatch huge numbers of 109s and 190s for almost no loss.

Debate raged between the US-whiners who accounted for this entirely by the superior quality of the American fighters, and the Luft-whiners who instead pinned the blame on psychological factors: the inexperience (and low morale?) of the newly recruited LW pilots, who had been briefed that this would be a ground-attack mission rather than one that would involve intensive dogfighting.

Given the almost unbelievable result of that day's combat, I'm guessing that it can only be accounted for by both sides being correct: The American fighters were very much more capable than the 109s and 190A's sent against them (faster, more durable, much easier to fly, and about equal in sheer turning ability). However, it's also true that most of the American pilots were well trained, experienced, and motivated, whereas the Germans ones were nearly all raw recruits (supplemented by the dwindling remnants of the overworked and exhausted club of Luftwaffe 'experten').

OK, now for the really stupid idea: I bet that if we equalize the second factor (the better quality of American pilots) then the Germans come off much better. Why not re-enact the battle? If the US-whiners think the late-model 109s are overmodelled, then make them fly G6's, or even E4's. The Americans can fly Yak-3P's, if they don't like their Mustangs and Thunderbolts. I predict that against 5 to 1 odds, and with the tactical disadvantage of having only just taken off, Yak-3P's will get beaten by 109-E4's, provided the pilots on each side are of roughly equal caliber.

Anca1ag0n
07-10-2004, 12:52 PM
I have a really stupid idea to offload - sorry everyone.

I've just been reading (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=399105135) a thread about the seemingly miraculous performance of the American P51's and P47's that fought in Operation Bodenplatte (new years day 1945). Heavily outnumbered by LW fighters, and with tactical disadvantage, they managed to dispatch huge numbers of 109s and 190s for almost no loss.

Debate raged between the US-whiners who accounted for this entirely by the superior quality of the American fighters, and the Luft-whiners who instead pinned the blame on psychological factors: the inexperience (and low morale?) of the newly recruited LW pilots, who had been briefed that this would be a ground-attack mission rather than one that would involve intensive dogfighting.

Given the almost unbelievable result of that day's combat, I'm guessing that it can only be accounted for by both sides being correct: The American fighters were very much more capable than the 109s and 190A's sent against them (faster, more durable, much easier to fly, and about equal in sheer turning ability). However, it's also true that most of the American pilots were well trained, experienced, and motivated, whereas the Germans ones were nearly all raw recruits (supplemented by the dwindling remnants of the overworked and exhausted club of Luftwaffe 'experten').

OK, now for the really stupid idea: I bet that if we equalize the second factor (the better quality of American pilots) then the Germans come off much better. Why not re-enact the battle? If the US-whiners think the late-model 109s are overmodelled, then make them fly G6's, or even E4's. The Americans can fly Yak-3P's, if they don't like their Mustangs and Thunderbolts. I predict that against 5 to 1 odds, and with the tactical disadvantage of having only just taken off, Yak-3P's will get beaten by 109-E4's, provided the pilots on each side are of roughly equal caliber.

PBNA-Boosher
07-10-2004, 03:34 PM
It's a very good idea, but it would require very strict guidelines based on lives, and difficulty settings. I know I couldn't do it. Besides, you have to realize that the damage that a virtual pilot in FB takes before he turns for home is a ton more than what a real pilot would accept. In FB you're not fighting for your life, your playing a game. So the stress, the desparation of each pilot will not be met. Players will be fighting to the death and most likely not using teamwork. They will fly until their wings are chopped off, instead of returning to base if they discover a fuel, hydraulic, or oil leak. It will not be a true "re-enactment." At most, it will be an estimate, a guess.

Boosher
_____________________________
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you..."
-Gandalf

gombal40
07-10-2004, 03:44 PM
see this site about bodenplatte

http://www.bodenplatte.tk/

DaBallz
07-10-2004, 04:45 PM
Bodenplatte was a success for the Luftwaffe.
But in the big picture it was a disaster.

The question is about the "Y29 miracle".

At forward air base Y29 in Belgum the Germans
attacked the base with a huge numerical superiority.

The American situation was the group of P-51Ds
was taking off on an escort mission to escort
heavily loaded P-47Ds on a bombing/strafing
mission.

The set up was the P-47's were already airborne
waiting for the P-51s to join up.
As the P-51's were taking off the Germans arrived.
The P-51's were fully loaded except
externals or bombs.
The fuselage tanks were full.
The P-47's carried a full loadout of fuel and bombs.

As soon as the Germans were spotted the P-47s
dropped all external stores and ran defense.
This was critical to the defense of Y-29.
Those P-47s claimed 7 German fighters.

The P-51 drivers took off right into a fire fight.
Some guys were firing as they retracted their
landing gear.

In the fight that ensued, no P-47s from the tactical
unit were lost, not were any P-51s. 23 kills
were confirmed for the P-51 drivers.
One kill has since been added, to bring it
to 24 confirmed (that kill was confirmed last year!).

Estimated advantage was 5:1 for the Germans.
At least two group leaders, "experten" were
killed over Y29, and combat accounts describe
at least two extremely good german pilots
being shot down.

The flip side was the germans had tripped
over a real hornets nest. They had
run afoul of arguable the best fighter unit
in the USAAF, the 352nd.

http://352ndfg.com/Home/Y-29/legend.htm

Call it as you like, those were not all rookies
in the German planes. But to say the P-51s
took off defensless is also incorrect. The 366th
tactical fighter group ran an effective distraction
and defence allowing the P-51s to takeoff.
But the P-51 drivers did take off HOT.

One more point, those P-47 drivers were not
experianced dogfighters. They were trained
at ground support and bombing.
They claimed 7 kills.......

That's why it's called the "Y-29 miracle".

One sad note is that the air war had lost all
sense of sportsmanship or chivalry.
More than one account makes it clear they
kept hosing the plane as the pilot bailed
to kill the enemy pilot.


Da...

WUAF_Badsight
07-10-2004, 05:16 PM
that air battle proves absolutly Nothing about certian planes design performance

all it shows is that one groupe of people performed a lot better on a certian day that another group of guys

to say its proof of the Mustang being anything other than a inferior low alt turn fighter is rediculous

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
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DaBallz
07-10-2004, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
that air battle proves absolutly Nothing about certian planes design performance

all it shows is that one groupe of people performed a lot better on a certian day that another group of guys

to say its proof of the Mustang being anything other than a inferior low alt turn fighter is rediculous

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badsight, your name fits you well.
This thread is not about turning.
it is about trying to duplicate the situation
in the game and re-enact it.

Also you still fail to bring any data
to the table, try backing up your repeatative
rambelings and supplying some proof.

Da...

WUAF_Badsight
07-10-2004, 05:44 PM
repetitive ?

unlike what you do right ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DaBallz
07-10-2004, 05:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
repetitive ?

unlike what you do right ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not hardly, you offer nothing.
I offer a suporting argument and sources.
Go ahead, say it again.....

Da...

WUAF_Badsight
07-10-2004, 05:55 PM
yea same Pony fanboi **** over & over & over

the american plane fans seem to have their head in the sand & only come out to whine about Jap planes

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
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owlwatcher
07-10-2004, 07:22 PM
This is just one of the many air fields attack in Bodenplatte.
Recreating it most likly would put the germans on the losing end.
Loses from friendly fire would have to be rolled for.
The range of the mission also would hurt the Germans.
Lastly the surprize element was lost.
Even putting averge pilots on both sides the US would come out on top because the averge US pilot would still be better trained. I reason this as to more time in the air.
The P-47 & P-51 are the planes that won the air war over Europe. Better built,maintained and the fuel was better. As said before easy to fly
compared to say a Me-109.
Also the leaders (Airfeild Commander)at ASCH were on there toes as they wanted some early patrols in the air. Ground fire by the US was also alert at the time.
As to which plane it sounded like it was mostly headon attacks.
Here I would assume the germans should come out on top with there cannons,seems the sh-ty 50.cal won the field.
Not a battle to prove good or bad on either side just another day of fighting.

faustnik
07-10-2004, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anca1ag0n:
I have a really stupid idea to offload - sorry everyone.

I've just been reading (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=399105135) a thread about the seemingly miraculous performance of the American P51's and P47's that fought in Operation Bodenplatte (new years day 1945). Heavily outnumbered by LW fighters, and with tactical disadvantage, they managed to dispatch huge numbers of 109s and 190s for almost no loss.

Debate raged between the US-whiners who accounted for this entirely by the superior quality of the American fighters, and the Luft-whiners who instead pinned the blame on psychological factors: the inexperience (and low morale?) of the newly recruited LW pilots, who had been briefed that this would be a ground-attack mission rather than one that would involve intensive dogfighting.

Given the almost unbelievable result of that day's combat, I'm guessing that it can only be accounted for by both sides being correct: The American fighters were very much more capable than the 109s and 190A's sent against them (faster, more durable, much easier to fly, and about equal in sheer turning ability). However, it's also true that most of the American pilots were well trained, experienced, and motivated, whereas the Germans ones were nearly all raw recruits (supplemented by the dwindling remnants of the overworked and exhausted club of Luftwaffe 'experten').

OK, now for the really stupid idea: I bet that if we equalize the second factor (the better quality of American pilots) then the Germans come off much better. Why not re-enact the battle? If the US-whiners think the late-model 109s are overmodelled, then make them fly G6's, or even E4's. The Americans can fly Yak-3P's, if they don't like their Mustangs and Thunderbolts. I predict that against 5 to 1 odds, and with the tactical disadvantage of having only just taken off, Yak-3P's will get beaten by 109-E4's, provided the pilots on each side are of roughly equal caliber.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, there is no reason to change planes. The P-51s and P-47s are very good fighters in FB. Fw190s and 109s will be weighed down by bombs and subject to intense flak. I wouldn't gine the LW pilots a numerical advantage. Although historic, you have to compensate for the fact that pilot skill will be roughly even in an FB battle. The USAAF pilots will be facing experienced LW pilots in a recreation.

Our squad has recreated this battle several times against the 4th FG. The fight is always a good one and has gone either way depending as usual on one or two key events.

If you can't handle 109s or 190s when flying the P-51 in FB, practice more. The P-51 is great in FB, as it was in reality.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com) is recruiting
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=31)

plumps_
07-10-2004, 10:17 PM
DaBallz, could it be that the glory of the legend is blinding you slightly?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DaBallz:
In the fight that ensued, no P-47s from the tactical
unit were lost, not were any P-51s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From the 352's web site:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The 390th claimed 7 enemy aircraft in this attack taking a loss of only one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Another one:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DaBallz:
Estimated advantage was 5:1 for the Germans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the 352's web site 65 German fighters took off vs. 20 US fighters. That's not exactly 5:1, is it?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anca1ag0n:
Heavily outnumbered by LW fighters, and with tactical disadvantage, they managed to dispatch huge numbers of 109s and 190s for almost no loss.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're overestimating the German advantage.

Numbers
US: 8 P-47, 12 P-51, unkown number of AAA gunners (!)
Germans: 65 Me-109 and Fw-190 took off. Normally some have to return due to technical problems.
That's rather 3:1 for the Germans than 5:1, not even counting the AAA that was credited with seven kills and may have damaged others so they had to leave the battle.

Fuel/weight:
US: Fully loaded with fuel, which makes manoeuvring difficult but leaves a broad safety margin for long fights with all kinds of alternatives including returning to England. P-47s jettison their bombs immediately.
Germans: After 50 minutes of flight time their limited range allows only a short time over the target, which reduces their numerical advantage. Manoeuvrabilty reduced by bombload.

Altitude
US: P-47 in the air, below the cloud ceiling, probably higher than Germans, so they have a slight advantage. P-51 taking off.
Germans: Altitude 500 m, preparing for ground attack, altitude advantage compared to P-51 is small.

Fatigue
US: P-47 just took off, P-51 during take off. Fresh pilots.
Germans: 50 minutes of low altitude formation flying to stay invisible to enemy radar take their toll.

Mission:
US: Mission hasn't started yet, easy to adapt to a surprising situation.
Germans: 50 minutes into the mission, ready to destroy ground targets, they get bounced by the P-47s, which diverts their attention from their target already believed so close. Heavily loaded with bombs they can't counter the P-47s' initial attack.

Territory:
US: Fighting over own territory. Supported by friendly AAA, bailing out into safety, if necessary. Advantage of the home team.
Germans: Fighting against enemy air and ground forces.

Teamwork:
US: P-51s take off together and provide cover to each other. Start as a rather small, but compact group.
Germans: Confused by attack from the P-47s. Possibly the leader got shot down in an early stage, which then would have prevented a coordinated reaction.


My impression after reading the stories is that gunnery, teamwork (and luck) were the keys to winning the battle, and this traces back to pilot training. There were several head-ons reported where the German pilots didn't hit but the US pilots did.

-----------------------------------
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My Missions (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/missionen-en.html)

[This message was edited by plumps_ on Sat July 10 2004 at 09:28 PM.]

lrrp22
07-10-2004, 10:54 PM
Wow...that is the finest bit of rationalization I have seen in quite some time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Your impressive piece of mental gymmnastics has now convinced me that being bounced on take-off by 60+ enemy fighters attacking at combat speed is actually a tactical *advantage*! Who'd a thunk it?

Seriously though, I agree that pilot skill likely was the deciding factor in the outcome, but ignoring the Mustang's performance under these circumstances strikes me as rather naive. If the Mustang was even half as unwieldy at low speed as many of you want to believe it was, no amount of pilot skill would have been able to overcome the situation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by plumps_:
DaBallz, could it be that the glory of the legend is blinding you slightly?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DaBallz:
In the fight that ensued, no P-47s from the tactical
unit were lost, not were any P-51s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From the 352's web site:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The 390th claimed 7 enemy aircraft in this attack taking a loss of only one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Another one:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DaBallz:
Estimated advantage was 5:1 for the Germans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to the 352's web site 65 German fighters took off vs. 20 US fighters. That's not exactly 5:1, is it?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anca1ag0n:
Heavily outnumbered by LW fighters, and with tactical disadvantage, they managed to dispatch huge numbers of 109s and 190s for almost no loss.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're overestimating the German advantage.

Numbers
US: 8 P-47, 12 P-51, unkown number of AAA gunners (!)
Germans: 65 Me-109 and Fw-190 took off. Normally some have to return due to technical problems.
That's rather 3:1 for the Germans than 5:1, not even counting the AAA that was credited with seven kills and may have damaged others so they had to leave the battle.

Fuel/weight:
US: Fully loaded with fuel, which makes manoeuvring difficult but leaves a broad safety margin for long fights with all kinds of alternatives including returning to England. P-47s jettison their bombs immediately.
Germans: After 50 minutes of flight time their limited range allows only a short time over the target, which reduces their numerical advantage. Manoeuvrabilty reduced by bombload.

Altitude
US: P-47 in the air, below the cloud ceiling, probably higher than Germans, so they have a slight advantage. P-51 taking off.
Germans: Altitude 500 m, preparing for ground attack, altitude advantage compared to P-51 is small.

Fatigue
US: P-47 just took off, P-51 during take off. Fresh pilots.
Germans: 50 minutes of low altitude formation flying to stay invisible to enemy radar take their toll.

Mission:
US: Mission hasn't started yet, easy to adapt to a surprising situation.
Germans: 50 minutes into the mission, ready to destroy ground targets, they get bounced by the P-47s, which diverts their attention from their target already believed so close. Heavily loaded with bombs they can't counter the P-47s' initial attack.

Territory:
US: Fighting over own territory. Supported by friendly AAA, bailing out into safety, if necessary. Advantage of the home team.
Germans: Fighting against enemy air and ground forces.

Teamwork:
US: P-51s take off together and provide cover to each other. Start as a rather small, but compact group.
Germans: Confused by attack from the P-47s. Possibly the leader got shot down in an early stage, which then would have prevented a coordinated reaction.


My impression after reading the stories is that gunnery, teamwork (and luck) were the keys to winning the battle, and this traces back to pilot training. There were several head-ons reported where the German pilots didn't hit but the US pilots did.

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/missionen-en.html

[This message was edited by plumps_ on Sat July 10 2004 at 09:28 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

widgeon
07-11-2004, 06:03 AM
The book, Green Hearts-First in Combat with the Dora 9, offers a very good description of the situation surrounding operation Bodenplatte. It describes thier flight (JG 26) and gives 1st person accounts of the mission.

I think it very much helps explain why it was a disaster as a mission, and perhaps sheds some light as to how the above described situation may have come to be.

There were certainly some well experienced pilots flying that day, but the majority were not.

Anyways, the whole book was very good and very much recommended.

http://www.eagle-editions.com/ghrfbk.htm


Widgeon

DaBallz
07-11-2004, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by widgeon:
The book, Green Hearts-First in Combat with the Dora 9, offers a very good description of the situation surrounding operation Bodenplatte. It describes thier flight (JG 26) and gives 1st person accounts of the mission.

I think it very much helps explain why it was a disaster as a mission, and perhaps sheds some light as to how the above described situation may have come to be.

There were certainly some well experienced pilots flying that day, but the majority were not.

Anyways, the whole book was very good and very much recommended.

http://www.eagle-editions.com/ghrfbk.htm


Widgeon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, the Luftwaffe spin doctors are out tonight.
Great job, No P-47s were shot down.
One was damaged beyond reaair and one P-51
was badly damaged.

5:1 disadvantage is the USAAF number.

You can not spin the Germans into a disadvantage
when they were already airborne and moving
at high speeds. The P-47s were the key for sure.
They were in position to defend.

Excellent stuff guys. At least you are providing
more rebuttal than WUAF_BADSIGHT.

Da...

NN_EnigmuS
07-11-2004, 07:45 AM
it's stange but i've not the same sources over Y29 airborn at bodenplatte it was a defeat yes but not as much as you said:

from docavia Nâ?15 on FW:
in the fight,near than 10 mustang(meyer was going for a patrol with some of his guy) and some spitfire Mk14 and P47
they're was 21 pilots lost in combats in Jg11 side(dead,injured,captured)for the lost of 5 mustang and 3 spitfire in aircombat and near 10 C47 destroye and 20 monoengine burn on the floor

plane of Jg11 was Fw190A8/9 and Bf109
the first meyer victories of this day was only because of luck he had becasue he open fire from the ground to a Fwa8 who was straffing and hit it lol,the Fw crash on C47 parked on airfield

it was a great lost for Jg11 because lost 1/3 of his pilots and his best chiefs

from aerojournal number28 ofdec-jan03:
not the same story again lol who's right
4 mustang destroyed in air,one P47 and one spit
american plane in air:18P47 and 12 mustang
for 50 ennemy plane FwA and Bf109?

Jg11 was first attack by P47 B&z them and then by P51 taking off
some victories claim never exist as the lieutnant R.v.Brulle one in his P47(pilot was alive and well for give his story after the war lol Leutnant Georg FĂĽreder)
if you read well most of the victories where made against plane trying to straff and not in pure DG

if you read the captain william whisner story you will clairly see that point:he had 4 victories after his first one(fw190)he was hit a lot(hits of 20mm in each wings,left aileron with no response and loss of hoil) but he arrived to destroye 3 other plane one Fw who was in straffing,one Fw190 in DF(probably a a8/r2 lol)and finally a 109 who was straffing too

for the first meyer victory in y29 event here it said he destroyed a Fw190 whitout having gear up yet lol

just for said that there was not a lot of dogfight in those victories because lot of german plane was involve to straff and spend all their ammo on ground and then come home,with luck of not being destroye by AAA,and ennemy fighters

the bodenplatte operation was made for destroying plane on the ground not in the air,and was tacticaly non sense.

http://www.nnavirex.com/public/enigmus.gif

NN_EnigmuS
07-11-2004, 07:51 AM
oh i forgot some P47 firing their rockets over ennemmy fighters in B&Z lol and hit some lol as Melvyn paisley

and in the same book there is some german saying how they was hit and crash etc...
and as you can see in what they said they was hit when they were straffing and when they was coming home,as i said earlier it was their order not to go in DF

http://www.nnavirex.com/public/enigmus.gif

widgeon
07-11-2004, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:

Wow, the Luftwaffe spin doctors are out tonight.
Great job, No P-47s were shot down.
One was damaged beyond reaair and one P-51
was badly damaged.

5:1 disadvantage is the USAAF number.

You can not spin the Germans into a disadvantage
when they were already airborne and moving
at high speeds. The P-47s were the key for sure.
They were in position to defend.

Excellent stuff guys. At least you are providing
more rebuttal than WUAF_BADSIGHT.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I was'nt giving a rebuttal, just trying to give a source of info to those interested. Obviously you have already read the book. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Not everyone who replys to this board is here to prove a point, or join an argument.

Widgeon

Grendel-B
07-11-2004, 08:03 AM
When talking about Bodenplatte and especially this "Y29" you must always take notice of the strategic situation and the conditions of the whole attack. If you try to prove anything about the planes themselves and their performance based on this battle, you're totally on the wrong tracks and mainly showing your clueleness about aerial warfare.

Primary thing about the German pilots of this battle was that most of the pilots were thrown into the battle from Galland's reserve. Those pilots were mostly inexperienced and lacked actual combat experience. Their training had concentrated on attacking bombers. They had no training on fighter-bomber operations, strafing or fighter combat. They were meat on the table for any medium trained Allied pilot.

A lot of those green German pilots had trouble to hit even stationary ground targets.

They could have been useful against the heavy bombers, their minimal training had fully concentrated to that, but they were mostly easy targets on any other mission. Now they were ordered into something, thay they were in no way prepared for. It was recipe for disaster and so it happened. I am not at all surprised for the success of the P51s and P47s at "Y29", because not even overwhelming superiority in numbers helps if the pilots are not up to the task. This was proven countless times during the war, on all fronts.

In my opinion this operation is all but impossible to recreate in a simulator, because the pilots would need to be on totally different skill levels - and the numbers are a problem too. It could be done as a "what if" scenario, if the German side had more experienced pilots, but is that what you would like to do?

VirtuaaliLentoLaivue Icebreakers
http://icebreakers.compart.fi/

Finnish Virtual Pilots Association aviation history articles:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/

owlwatcher
07-11-2004, 11:55 AM
Wondering ,The germans planes were not carrying any bombs?

From my reading I saw no mention of bombs being used by the luffwaffe

Right or wrong on this note.

BaldieJr
07-11-2004, 12:58 PM
Tedious are these threads. +1 for me.

PS- in keeping with an old forum tradition, allow me to remind you of one very important fact: Cherry. You may continue cramming ideas of each others rears.

DangerForward
07-11-2004, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
Wondering ,The germans planes were not carrying any bombs?

From my reading I saw no mention of bombs being used by the luffwaffe

Right or wrong on this note.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because of the range, no bombs were carried on the fighters as they needed to use drop tanks. No sure about the 190Fs that did the flight though.

"Six Month to Oblivion" by Girbig gives a good blow by blow on the whole Bodenplatte operation. I think the Germans took most their casualties from AA fire, including friendly. The fighter to fighter combat if I recall played a small part compared to the beating the Germans took from the flak. I think some units took lost 10% just crossing the lines from flak.

DangerForward

FI-Aflak
07-11-2004, 07:21 PM
If I had the choice of dogfighting even odds in any of the planes from IL-2, I would choose a P-47. I love it. Its a good fighter if you handle it well, you can escape most anything by diving, and you can take a good amount of damage. And it'll have a roomier cockpit, which is good for me at 6.5' tall.