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Herbstlicht
08-25-2017, 09:08 PM
Some in my opinion "fixes" to help the Highlander moving from low-medium to medium high tier:

#1 Guard switch speed. For parts of his kit to work (naming crushing counter) this is something basic. I really wonder how this could happen at this phase of the game. You gave him a mechanic as an alternative to go instead of the "ordinary" parry, so he, specially after the defensive meta nerf will have very interesting options after parry, but seemed to have forgotten that your players should actually be able to use those mechanics. So .. please increase the guard switch speed or at least change the responsiveness so crusher counter strike can be used.

#2 Crushing Counter Strike: Make the timing the same as the Warden one to allow usage on reaction. It is a lovely addition to his toolset, it is really strong, but it is almost not usable against fast attacks (at least on console). Right now, it feels like some gamble you are more likely to loose then to win. Might already (because you can start attacking from there) help and mitigate part of the problem that gets further fixed with the following ...

#3 Hyper Armor: It comes relatively late into his attacks, what feels kinda bad. He has no move (from neutral) that is faster then 600 ms. He has no hyper armor from the start. Deciding to start a heavy when your opponent goes for a light attack, will only cancel your attack. So with an earlier hyperarmor activation, you too can try to dictate the speed of battle.

In my opinion, the first two changes are more like bug fixes, with the third making a slight mechanical change that moves away from "trading with heavies" to "able to initiate maybe alongside faster characters". I do think this would seriously strengthen him, without making him overpowered. Still, people could react to pretty much everything he has, with the biggest advantage here for assassin characters due to the strength of dodges against him (dodge attacks are extremely strong against pretty much all his mixups).

His maybe little gimped playstyle would switch from "clumsy" to "controlled and technical", guess that what you guys wanted from the start. Highlander could not start trade wars with the heavy hitters and real heavy classes. He would not become a fast character. He simply would get another way to initiate that can't be easily canceled with a light (or cent heavy for this case ..). His counterplay and defense would actually become high risk high reward.

Even with our eyes set on the future and the possible defensive meta fix, this should still be in line. Of course, specially his crushing counter, would be really strong. But still, not so strong people would never use the parry. There is stamina damage, situational awareness that might make you go for a kick into toss etc. - like a lot of options to consider.


Anyway, I hope the community might discuss this (I am just a mediocre Rep 8 Highlander (almost 9) as I am typing this) and maybe even correct me on maybe some wrong assessments. But I gave this a lot of thought, did dig into Reddit etc. before making this post.

AzureSky.
08-25-2017, 09:11 PM
you are supposed to initiate at a long distance with celtic curse, highlander have the highest hyper armor times, you can take a hit and do a lot more of damage, thats his playstyle, i agree with the guard switch speed and parry speed (they changed the first one in the other patch but didnt update the parry switch stance time, its still the older one)

Tyrjo
08-25-2017, 09:16 PM
I don't know about guard switch being different since they normalized all heroes a couple of patches ago. I think he's lacking in HP (125 almost assassin level) he should have like 140. That'd be a start. Else I think we should wait and see a bit more.

SenBotsu893
08-25-2017, 09:21 PM
I don't know about guard switch being different since they normalized all heroes a couple of patches ago. I think he's lacking in HP (125 almost assassin level) he should have like 140. That'd be a start. Else I think we should wait and see a bit more.

funny how many people say 125 is low for Higlander. apparently its fine for Kensei wich is supposed to be vanguard.

Tyrjo
08-25-2017, 09:35 PM
funny how many people say 125 is low for Higlander. apparently its fine for Kensei wich is supposed to be vanguard.

True, Kensei could use a buff in that matter too. Kensei have good dodge ability though, which Highlander doesn't really have.

Knight_Raime
08-26-2017, 07:59 AM
I'll just tackle each by number:

1) His switch speed is not the problem here. I can and do switch my block in time to block lights. His switch speed is not slow nor was it forgotten when all other heros got their buffs to switch speed.
The reason you are not switching and counter crushing on reaction is because there is a 200ms start up delay for crushing counter. Meaning the frames in which that attack starts does not start till 200ms into the attack animation. Crushing counter is not a substitute for parry. Being able to switch on reaction to be able to CC an attack would be insanely broken. Which is also why standard guard heros while they can now flail their guard around as fast as an assassin can't parry instantly and have to wait for the switch animation to finish.

2) Personally i've found the timing for his specific crushing counter to be easier/more forgiving than wardens. But as far as I know neither is different. Please speak for yourself. It may have been several months and you probably don't remember but I still do. While being on console isn't as great as being on PC it's not an excuse for your bad reaction time or sub par equipment. I play on console. I can react to most lights on reaction. And if hooked up to a monitor with decent response time I can parry pk/valk lights much more consistently. You've hid behind the console argument in the past and I told you back then it was rubbish. it still is. FPS will let you see an attack better. But not react to it better. For that you need to be good and have a proper tv/monitor. TV's do not have that great response time. So even if you did see the attack better it's not going to fix response time issues. You can get a decent monitor for this for around 120-150$ USD.

3) Hyper armor works just fine. It doesn't need to be earlier.

You see Highlander has to read opponents to actually get in on someone. He's not like the warlord that can react to anything. He does need tweaks. But none of the ones you suggested.

Thasnatos
08-26-2017, 08:49 AM
funny how many people say 125 is low for Higlander. apparently its fine for Kensei wich is supposed to be vanguard.

Kensei is a pure Vanguard. Highlander is a Hybrid of Vanguard and TANK. Look at Lawbringer HP he has 150 and he's a Hybrid of Vanguard and TANK.
And for the same faction look at Raider he's a bloody Vanguard yet his HP is still higher than Highlander, Raider has 140 HP.

T.h.e.Notorious
08-26-2017, 10:49 AM
Kensei is a pure Vanguard. Highlander is a Hybrid of Vanguard and TANK. Look at Lawbringer HP he has 150 and he's a Hybrid of Vanguard and TANK.
And for the same faction look at Raider he's a bloody Vanguard yet his HP is still higher than Highlander, Raider has 140 HP.

You got the point. Highlander is hybrid of vanguard and heavy. He's more heavy though. Thus 140 HP is minimum. 150 optimal.

Herbstlicht
08-26-2017, 11:03 AM
Well, a character doesn't automatically need a lot of HP to be tanky. Recovery frames, reactibility, iframes etc. give different characters difference forms of defence, some pretty strong. Moving him up to 140 or 150 HP would surely not hurt him and make him way tankier. But it would not fix his clumsy feeling gameplay. As a technical fighter, I personally imagine something I got a lot of controle of. But with him and his sad delays to a lot of his kit, you are forced more into trading, using your crushing counter against heavies (what is actually pretty nice because almost no one seems to be able to parry those lights after a gb feint) and rely on a feint and mixup heavy game. Not that it is a bad thing overall, but his overall low stamina pool does not make for the most of exiting playstyles. Anyway, He is not bad and still is fun, though that mostly derives of the amazing blade he is swinging.

Knight_Raime
08-26-2017, 07:07 PM
Well, a character doesn't automatically need a lot of HP to be tanky. Recovery frames, reactibility, iframes etc. give different characters difference forms of defence, some pretty strong. Moving him up to 140 or 150 HP would surely not hurt him and make him way tankier. But it would not fix his clumsy feeling gameplay. As a technical fighter, I personally imagine something I got a lot of controle of. But with him and his sad delays to a lot of his kit, you are forced more into trading, using your crushing counter against heavies (what is actually pretty nice because almost no one seems to be able to parry those lights after a gb feint) and rely on a feint and mixup heavy game. Not that it is a bad thing overall, but his overall low stamina pool does not make for the most of exiting playstyles. Anyway, He is not bad and still is fun, though that mostly derives of the amazing blade he is swinging.

Except the only delay that exists on his kit is the caber toss if done from neutral.
Everything else is literally just timing that you need to learn.

I believe he's not meant to be someone to trade. If he was built for trading he'd be able to do it on reaction ala warlord or have armor and lots of HP like goki who is literally built to trade. The super armor I believe exists for you to trade in niche instances. Not as a main method of getting in. Considering you can fast flow in to offensive stance on almost anything even whiffs I believe he's meant to get in with mix ups.

His stamina pool is fine as is. leaving OF needs to not cost anything though. and maybe some stamina reduction on moves inside OF.

IMO the right buffs for him are:
~removing stamina cost of leaving OF
~reduce stamina cost on all OF attacks
~remove start up delay of cabers toss
~fix his GB issue
~fix his heavy feint into GB issue so it can be input seemlessly like everyone else

That's it. I could maybe see an HP buff if it was very small. And maybe a damage increase in some attacks. if slight. But as I mentioned already highlander is vastly different to how the game is normally played. and people are stuck on that thinking he's really bad. When honestly he's super strong. Just due to some small issues he's slightly UP.

UbiJurassic
08-26-2017, 11:52 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Herbstlicht! Highlander definitely seems to be on the weaker side, from the community's perspective and we've been listening to a lot of the feedback that coming in on him.I'll definitely makes note of the discussion here, so keep talking it up everyone! The more feedback we can get to highlight potential areas for improvement, the better. :)

AAR0NDAAW3SM3
09-15-2017, 04:41 AM
if the higlander doesn't get buffed in the next update, myself and 5 people I know have decided to delete the game and vow not to redownload it. If it were up to me the character would be removed entirely. If you comment with opposition to this post the Ill just disregard it, because you're just turd and you play an over powered unfair advantage character. if you are higher than rep 5 with the highlander then you should probably get some sun, GO OUTSIDE LOSER. #Season3KilledForHonor

Alustar.
09-15-2017, 10:02 AM
if the higlander doesn't get buffed in the next update, myself and 5 people I know have decided to delete the game and vow not to redownload it. If it were up to me the character would be removed entirely. If you comment with opposition to this post the Ill just disregard it, because you're just turd and you play an over powered unfair advantage character. if you are higher than rep 5 with the highlander then you should probably get some sun, GO OUTSIDE LOSER. #Season3KilledForHonor

Lol I love angst you posts like this. It's humorous to see a forum lurker call out gamers on not having a life! XD

Quiet_Wolf283
09-15-2017, 02:54 PM
Well, I really enjoy playing the Higlander (Rep 11, Gearscore 180) and I get enogh sun. :)

I would appreciate it, if he would be a Little bit faster and get just a bit more health.

We.the.North
09-16-2017, 03:03 PM
I'm curious about the DATA. A lot of player seems to think Highlander is on the weak side of things, but in Dominion, I see them dominating more than getting fed upon.

I know from a Shinobi's perspective, Highlanders are my ABSOLUTE WORST match up. That match up is totally unfair and one sided. A single heavy (which is really hard to react tho due to the celtic curse mix up potentiel) will lead to an automatic 2nd top heavy follow up. With gear and the 2nd feat, those 2 heavy together one shot the Shinobi.

We.the.North
09-16-2017, 03:08 PM
I'm curious about the DATA. A lot of player seems to think Highlander is on the weak side of things, but in Dominion, I see them dominating more than getting fed upon.

I know from a Shinobi's perspective, Highlanders are my ABSOLUTE WORST match up. That match up is totally unfair and one sided. A single heavy (which is really hard to react tho due to the celtic curse mix up potentiel) will lead to an automatic 2nd top heavy follow up. With gear and the 2nd feat, those 2 heavy together one shot the Shinobi.

Alustar.
09-16-2017, 04:05 PM
I'm curious about the DATA. A lot of player seems to think Highlander is on the weak side of things, but in Dominion, I see them dominating more than getting fed upon.

I know from a Shinobi's perspective, Highlanders are my ABSOLUTE WORST match up. That match up is totally unfair and one sided. A single heavy (which is really hard to react tho due to the celtic curse mix up potentiel) will lead to an automatic 2nd top heavy follow up. With gear and the 2nd feat, those 2 heavy together one shot the Shinobi.

This is a case of outside looking in, it's easy to judge that based on how it effects you personally. And while i agree it's bs that a Shinobi can get two shot under the right circumstances; it's just that. Circumstantial. As highlander I have a problem with most assassins, (which is freaking hilarious coming from a PK main) the only benefit I have going for me in that regard is experience as an assassin.
As a Shinobi you'd be better off trying quick hit and run tactics. You have excellent range and speed, not to mention follow up light hits coming from the same side are guaranteed. Hell I'd wait for the attempt at OS the hit them with a grab that leads into sickle rain.

We.the.North
09-16-2017, 08:01 PM
As a Shinobi you'd be better off trying quick hit and run tactics. You have excellent range and speed, not to mention follow up light hits coming from the same side are guaranteed.

Light + Light is 28 damage. 33 with gear stats on. A Highlander has 125 hp. In other words, I need to be able to "light-light" him 4 times in a row to kill him. If during that time he catches me ONCE with a heavy attack (keep in mind, those heavy attack have hyper armor so my light+light wont stagger him), I'm dead.

I'm perfectly aware of what Shinobi can and can't do. I'm just stating the obvious truth :

- A Shinobi has to successfully "out-play" a Highlander 3-4 times to kill him*.
- A single mistake and the Shinobi is dead against the Highlander. (Dominion with 2nd feat unlocked and gear stats on)

That's not balanced. To come back to the initial discussion, here's my perspective from a Shinobi point of view : There is no way in hell I'd accept buffing the Highlander in any way if Shinobi remains untouched. That match up is already completely once sided.

As for other match ups, I do believe Highlander is in a very good place. He's not the strongest and he's not the weakest. I wouldn't touch him.

Alustar.
09-16-2017, 10:22 PM
Light + Light is 28 damage. 33 with gear stats on. A Highlander has 125 hp. In other words, I need to be able to "light-light" him 4 times in a row to kill him. If during that time he catches me ONCE with a heavy attack (keep in mind, those heavy attack have hyper armor so my light+light wont stagger him), I'm dead.

I'm perfectly aware of what Shinobi can and can't do. I'm just stating the obvious truth :

- A Shinobi has to successfully "out-play" a Highlander 3-4 times to kill him*.
- A single mistake and the Shinobi is dead against the Highlander. (Dominion with 2nd feat unlocked and gear stats on)

That's not balanced. To come back to the initial discussion, here's my perspective from a Shinobi point of view : There is no way in hell I'd accept buffing the Highlander in any way if Shinobi remains untouched. That match up is already completely once sided.

As for other match ups, I do believe Highlander is in a very good place. He's not the strongest and he's not the weakest. I wouldn't touch him.

I never said Shinobi doesn't have his work cut out for him, but with his speed a d the slow activation on the hyper armor without a Celtic Curse cancel hit your lights are faster than the hyper armor.

Also note: assassins should not be trading hits with heavies like HL. Shug, and WL. I've learned that the hard way.

Lastly, this isn't a subject on Shinobi, I've been a proponent of giving him a tweak anyway. That doesn't mean however that the HL is perfect. The heavies even with Hyper armor are extremely parry-able, which means deflecting them should be even easier.

We.the.North
09-16-2017, 11:11 PM
Lastly, this isn't a subject on Shinobi,

Hence the :


As for other match ups, I do believe Highlander is in a very good place. He's not the strongest and he's not the weakest. I wouldn't touch him.

Pier_Donia
03-17-2018, 06:11 AM
He definitely needs something done.

Personally I'd rather have a little more speed.

There is almost no point in having crushing counter on him, since you cant react with it.

Being able to react with it would fix most of his problems.

As of now, he just gets eaten alive in duels.

Which I am willing to place money on, that anyone here who is against a speed increase, avoids like the plague.

If you are beaten in a duel by a highlander, he is not just a little better than you, he must be amazing compared to you.

Kahuf1
03-17-2018, 08:11 AM
He definitely needs something done.

Personally I'd rather have a little more speed.

There is almost no point in having crushing counter on him, since you cant react with it.

Being able to react with it would fix most of his problems.

As of now, he just gets eaten alive in duels.

Which I am willing to place money on, that anyone here who is against a speed increase, avoids like the plague.

If you are beaten in a duel by a highlander, he is not just a little better than you, he must be amazing compared to you.

Hi there, I agree with "he have to get something". Rep 13 highlander here and I see him pretty good against "normal and slower" heroes. But assasins and conq, he is pretty weak. Every aggressive fast hero dont let u to go to Offensive stance which is core for Highlander.

So sugestion:
- Deffensive opener with fastflow to offensive stance
Just rework his off stance emote animation to 1 handed push enemy away. No damage, maybe little stamina damage, no guaranteed damage, just fast push enemy away with fastflow to off stance.

Thats it.

BarbeQMichael
03-17-2018, 11:42 AM
Faster lights and better dodge recoveries, and HL would go from garbage to B or even A -tier.

Kahuf1
03-17-2018, 12:37 PM
Faster lights and better dodge recoveries, and HL would go from garbage to B or even A -tier.

I do not agree with fastering game anymore... there is tons of spam moves. If everyone have 400ms like lights, no else will be usable.

Slow heroes are fine, if they have some other oportunity.

BarbeQMichael
03-17-2018, 05:37 PM
I do not agree with fastering game anymore... there is tons of spam moves. If everyone have 400ms like lights, no else will be usable.

Slow heroes are fine, if they have some other oportunity.

No 400ms from neutral, 500ms are fine. They don't even have to be from all directions, as long as they have them from some direction(s). That is the reason why raider, shugo and highlander are practically useless when going above average in mm-rating because they lack fast attacks, and excluding raider they also have horrible dodges.

UbiJurassic
03-17-2018, 06:31 PM
Woah, this is definitely an older thread.

I appreciate you all for reviving discussion on Highlander and for discussing feedback on him, but let's move this over to a new thread so people don't get confused reading the previous posts about pre-rework Highlander. ;)