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View Full Version : Why is wardens 50/50 still in the game?



AnEnticingSquid
08-25-2017, 04:58 AM
40 damage top heavy, fast zone, extremely fast sprinting light, 2 hit light combo, crushing counter, confirmed heavy on gb, am I missing anything? And yet he still gets his vortex that can be spammed constantly with little punishment. Why is this still in the game? Every warden I fight, if i am close to winning just starts the 50/50 in hopes of winning through sheer luck. And it works..
A lot. Why do they keep obviously broken mechanics in the game for so long? I know they nerfef the stamina cost and it used to be A lot worse, but it is still completely viable...

mrmistark
08-25-2017, 05:23 AM
honestly I feel like his shoulder bash shouldn't be considered really a 50/50. The cancel into gb is so animated now and he also doesn't fly 30 feet like he used to. It's more like a 50/50 that either the shoulder bash or gb will even land. A dodged shoulder bash is a free gb so I wouldn't consider it "little punishment" (unless you're playing highlander haha, too soon?), you can interrupt both by a quick light attack unless you're too far away but with most characters a back dodge would put you out of range for a free gb to punish a shoulder bash/gb wiff. his shoulder bash mixup is easily dodgeable for a free gb so if you're smart that's really not a great mix up for the warden meaning he has to do it in neutral if he doesn't want to be punished if you understand the mix up placements and are watching for it. 40 damage for a top heavy in comparison really isn't that amazing. His zone is fast but all zones cost a lot. His rushing light is easily parried, if you see him running towards you maybe that'd be a good que I'd think, that or he's going to try and gb probably. His side lights are pretty good and crushing counterstrike is alright but super situational. All in all, I think good pressure on any Warden will really help. In my honest opinion, from a console perspective, maybe I've just been playing for too long, but after his last nerf Warden seems kind of limited and lackluster

My point being I think he's fine.

Moondyne_MC
08-25-2017, 05:28 AM
Haven't had to worry about Warden as a class on PS4 in a long time. Light attacks will interrupt both sides of his "50/50" if you can't read it well enough to react yet. If a Warden spams SB/GB mixup, you spam light attacks.

brashtralas
08-25-2017, 05:37 AM
It is a 50/50 and there's nothing to read. The warden is my most/second most played class. If I see you dodge, I can just grab. You stand your ground? I'll bash you.

Double roll away? Now we're back at neutral, but I have more stamina.

It's a poor mechanic people accept because other classes are even more imbalanced(as though balance is mutually exclusive), and it should be replaced with more viable moves in his move list.

Sneaky-Patches
08-25-2017, 06:29 AM
Haven't had to worry about Warden as a class on PS4 in a long time. Light attacks will interrupt both sides of his "50/50" if you can't read it well enough to react yet. If a Warden spams SB/GB mixup, you spam light attacks.

I play shinobi, and I can't get a light attack in inbetween bashes...

Antonioj26
08-25-2017, 06:35 AM
Haven't had to worry about Warden as a class on PS4 in a long time. Light attacks will interrupt both sides of his "50/50" if you can't read it well enough to react yet. If a Warden spams SB/GB mixup, you spam light attacks.

Not anymore, with timesnap removed 500ms lights can't interrupt.

Rikuto01.tv
08-25-2017, 06:41 AM
Pffft yes they can. Play a quicker character.

Antonioj26
08-25-2017, 06:49 AM
40 damage top heavy, fast zone, extremely fast sprinting light, 2 hit light combo, crushing counter, confirmed heavy on gb, am I missing anything? And yet he still gets his vortex that can be spammed constantly with little punishment. Why is this still in the game? Every warden I fight, if i am close to winning just starts the 50/50 in hopes of winning through sheer luck. And it works..
A lot. Why do they keep obviously broken mechanics in the game for so long? I know they nerfef the stamina cost and it used to be A lot worse, but it is still completely viable...

It's a strong tool but he really doesn't have a ton going for him. If they do dash attack/zone cheese that can be annoying but it's reactable. Top heavy only good for light parrys, wall stuns, and oos and when put in that context it's just okay in terms of punishes compared to others. Double lights are only good in conjunction with SB since the initial is so slow. Crushing counter is a great tool I'll give you that, but throwing in confirmed heavy on gb is silly since 95% of the cast can do this or have a decent substitute. His zone is balanced by the fact that it's a free gb if it's blocked. His SB has already been nerfed to the point where he can't 100-0 anymore, he can really only get off 4 at most if he starts with a full bar and that's 72 damage for reading you correctly 4 times in a row.

I still think overall he's a strong character but without his SB he's more a less a crappier Orochi with crushing counter strike. Also it's not really luck, it's from reading you. Pro poker players don't consistently win because of luck, they do because of reads.

Antonioj26
08-25-2017, 06:54 AM
Pffft yes they can. Play a quicker character.

If they can then it's got to be character specific since I've tried this with warden and lawbringers top lights and it doesn't work for either.

Draghmar
08-25-2017, 08:38 AM
Pffft yes they can. Play a quicker character.
That's really your argument? Or just trolling?

I've tried side light with Nobushi on lvl3 bot and manage only interrupt when I knew he will do it because he dodged. But just on reaction for SB when he was close was not possible for me. Second SB is somehow easier - probably because light is queued and start faster then if I would do it normally.

Lights helps when you know someone is spammer - just poke here and there. That will make them think. ;)

Knight_Raime
08-25-2017, 09:17 AM
It is a 50/50 and there's nothing to read. The warden is my most/second most played class. If I see you dodge, I can just grab. You stand your ground? I'll bash you.

Double roll away? Now we're back at neutral, but I have more stamina.

It's a poor mechanic people accept because other classes are even more imbalanced(as though balance is mutually exclusive), and it should be replaced with more viable moves in his move list.

"nothing to read." I don't believe you understand your terminology. Reading is knowing what your opponent is going to do before he does it.
Reacting is doing an action directly because you saw something.

Because anything Warden can do from canceling his SB puts him in neutral you can accurately react to what warden does. If any of his things he could do were around soft feinting instead you might have a point. But there is a clear difference in animations when the Warden cancels to whatever he's attempting to do.

Your examples are poor because that is the person reacting to the start of the dodge. Which of course is going to get them caught. A dodged SB gives a free GB. and because the Warden is forced to cancel their bash very early on all a player needs to do is have that time down. and then the vortex becomes much less of a threat.

If we were talking pre nerf SB where stamina cost on it was irrelevant and you could cancel super late you'd have a point again. But his mix ups are perfectly predictable for anyone who spends ample time sparring with one. I have with my sparring partner who plays primarily warden. And because of that I never have to worry about SB really.

If I merely sit there and wait it forces the Warden to do something instead. Which takes the power away from warden completely. If you cancel into GB I tech it since it's from neutral. If you cancel into top light I can parry you and punish you. and you can't cancel to parry me since I'm waiting on you to do something. So you entirely end up relying on me making the move first. and because I don't you can either try to let it fly and hope I don't dodge it or cancel it and try to open me elsewhere.

Lastly it's not a 50/50 for 3 main reasons:
1) Double dodge gets me out without having to make any decision. yeah i'm down stamina. Doesn't mean much when Being OOS in general is basically harmless. Point is i've escaped your vortex. Giving me a chance to react to it again should you attempt.

2) Anything he can do is reactable. As I already mentioned this is because it's a hard feint which puts you back into neutral. 50/50's are generally about forcing someone to guess. Warden's vortex doesn't force anyone to guess because there is no soft feinting. That's the only way a GB will ever work in a 50/50.

3) it's not a 50/50. it's a mix up because he can either cancel into an attack, cancel into SB, or cancel to parry. 50/50's are only about 2 options. No more.

Lastly basically everything about his kit is 100% viable and is used frequently even in top play. People just don't like that his kit uses an unblockable often. Which is fine. People can have their preferences. But that doesn't make it a factual problem. if Warden's "50/50" was a real problem we'd have seen him win tournies a lot. But not only has Warden not. But he's actually been falling down in the tier lists. While people like warlord and pk have been reigning since the beginning. Warden is really strong. But he's not amazing at anything. A master of nothing. and that's exactly why he's balanced.

RoosterIlluzion
08-25-2017, 10:16 AM
honestly I feel like his shoulder bash shouldn't be considered really a 50/50. The cancel into gb is so animated now and he also doesn't fly 30 feet like he used to. It's more like a 50/50 that either the shoulder bash or gb will even land. A dodged shoulder bash is a free gb so I wouldn't consider it "little punishment" (unless you're playing highlander haha, too soon?), you can interrupt both by a quick light attack unless you're too far away but with most characters a back dodge would put you out of range for a free gb to punish a shoulder bash/gb wiff. his shoulder bash mixup is easily dodgeable for a free gb so if you're smart that's really not a great mix up for the warden meaning he has to do it in neutral if he doesn't want to be punished if you understand the mix up placements and are watching for it. 40 damage for a top heavy in comparison really isn't that amazing. His zone is fast but all zones cost a lot. His rushing light is easily parried, if you see him running towards you maybe that'd be a good que I'd think, that or he's going to try and gb probably. His side lights are pretty good and crushing counterstrike is alright but super situational. All in all, I think good pressure on any Warden will really help. In my honest opinion, from a console perspective, maybe I've just been playing for too long, but after his last nerf Warden seems kind of limited and lackluster

My point being I think he's fine.


40 damage top heavy, fast zone, extremely fast sprinting light, 2 hit light combo, crushing counter, confirmed heavy on gb, am I missing anything? And yet he still gets his vortex that can be spammed constantly with little punishment. Why is this still in the game? Every warden I fight, if i am close to winning just starts the 50/50 in hopes of winning through sheer luck. And it works..
A lot. Why do they keep obviously broken mechanics in the game for so long? I know they nerfef the stamina cost and it used to be A lot worse, but it is still completely viable...

Warden is **** now. His shoulder bash/GB has to be decided in less than a second. If you hesitate, you'll charge.
I think his should bash should be faster, like headbutt or conquerors shield bash. Take the cancel into GB out and make it quicker. And his base GB is **** too. No reach.

Kaijudub
08-25-2017, 10:23 AM
SB makes him a noob stomper but once you figure that out, he's flawed in higher level play.

Take his sb away and you might aswell remove warden from the game.

Lyskir
08-25-2017, 10:43 AM
Warden is still a strong hero but balanced now, no need for nerfs

Aarpian
08-25-2017, 10:43 AM
Warden doesn't have a 50-50 except after landing a light attack. You can dodge roll away.