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kweassa1
08-20-2017, 01:17 PM
Tip: There are a few interesting features with Highlander Offensive Form (OF)

1. Heavies can be canceled and directly transition into Fomkick, Caber toss, or lights by individual command input right after heavy is activated.
2. Fomkick can also be canceled and directly transition into Cabtoss in the same manner.


Now, some of you may have seen my arguments with the "centurion tracking is bullshi*" people, in which threads I've explained multiple times how the "tracking" in FH works. Most usually, attacks are made up of two parts: an "activation" phase, and an actual "committed". The former is when your character begins his swing/thrust/whatever from his natural form, and the latter is when he/she actually extends the attack into a full blown swing/thrust/whatever.

In the former phase, your character will "adjust" his "aim" according to the relative position of the target. This is what makes it possible for most attacks in the game to find their mark. However, in the latter phase, the attack is committed and from that point on, your character cannot adjust anymore.

So, the proper way to dodge attacks is to dodge at the latter phase, not the former phase. When you dodge at the former phase the attack will "track" you (or rather, your dodge was determined a failure and the animation will show you that as a result the attack will adjust its course to land on you).

Think of it as swinging a bat to a pitcher's throw. The batter looks at the incoming ball, and at the very beginning phase of the swing he adjusts his swinging up or down to meet the ball, but once the swing is out, it's committed. It's basically the same.

...


So, what happens with the above technique is basically the application of the same principle. HL goes into offensive form, and "fakes" a Fomkick. The opponent reacts and dodges, but as he dodges the Fomkick is canceled and Cabtoss comes out. Since the opponent went into the dodge before the Cabtoss was "committed", the Cabtoss tracks and grabs any dodge -- left, right, backwards, any dodge.




https://youtu.be/FUanHWCO820

- 00:25 ~ 00:31 : catches side dodge
- 00:38 ~ 00:42 : Raider reacts to Fomkick with a backstep(rear dodge), Cabtoss grabs it.




https://youtu.be/Gfg7mJEUfSE
- 00:11 ~ 00:14 : catches side dodge
- 00:36 ~ 00:49 : catches side dodge
- 01:01 ~ 01:04 : same principles applies with a successful crushing counter light-into-OF




https://youtu.be/CCDeLX1_udw
- 00:24 ~ 00:27 : a bit of mistake and delay, but incidentally Warlord happens to backstep. Cabtoss reaches out and grabs.
- 00:44 ~ 00:47 : do these BOTs have "DEEP LEARNING" or something??? That's one way to escape the fomkick-cabtoss
- 00:59 ~ 01:04 : another cabtoss grab
- 01:20 ~ 01:25 : and another rolling escape
- 01:53 ~ 01:57 : and a very distinct view of the angular adjustment of cabtoss



https://youtu.be/Q72qEiR53Yk
- 00:10 ~ 00:19 : problem with assassins... sometimes they parry that
- 00:23 ~ 00:30 : fast left, right dodges? Doesn't matter. Cabtoss grabs.
- 00:40 ~ 00:45 : A very, very interesting case. I dunno if this is the result of the AI learning my moves, or simply dumb luck... but the Orochi actually doesn't respond to the "faked" fomkick at all. And then, when Cabtoss is actually coming out, he dodges to that move. The explanation I've laid out above applies -- the Orochi dodged the right attack and did not dodge too early, and that's how he was able to backstep away from Cabtoss.

Alustar.
08-20-2017, 02:27 PM
My only problem with this, is that going for a canceled kick into Caber isn't likely to work too often, you can just slap him out of it.

I worked on my timing with it against bots, then took it live and that's pretty much what happened.
Against slower characters I can get it in. Just not assassins yet

kweassa1
08-21-2017, 01:15 AM
My only problem with this, is that going for a canceled kick into Caber isn't likely to work too often, you can just slap him out of it.

I worked on my timing with it against bots, then took it live and that's pretty much what happened.
Against slower characters I can get it in. Just not assassins yet

That's very true. That's why HL's have the OF-light. :)

It's not a straight-up 50:50 (or more like 33:33:33) like the Warden's vortex because there are some clear-cut conditions for the maneuver to work, and you really need to set it up.before hand to futz-up the other guy's thinking process. IMO I think that's why the HL can be considered better 'balanced' than other classes.

The 33:33:33 "multiple choice is"

* opponent doesn't dodge -> Fomkick into heavy combo
* opponent dodges -> Fomkick cancel into Cabtoss
* opponent attacks -> light (or just a straight-up Fomkick if its a slow light)

Alustar.
08-21-2017, 01:26 AM
That's very true. That's why HL's have the OF-light. :)

It's not a straight-up 50:50 (or more like 33:33:33) like the Warden's vortex because there are some clear-cut conditions for the maneuver to work, and you really need to set it up.before hand to futz-up the other guy's thinking process. IMO I think that's why the HL can be considered better 'balanced' than other classes.

The 33:33:33 "multiple choice is"

* opponent doesn't dodge -> Fomkick into heavy combo
* opponent dodges -> Fomkick cancel into Cabtoss
* opponent attacks -> light (or just a straight-up Fomkick if its a slow light)

I see the potential for mix up mind games, and I'm getting the hang of snagging people, though I think that's what's going to separate the more capable players is being able to fluidly switch from a feinted OS-heavy into a light then into a grab then again from another feinted heavy into a kick, I love the many variables and difficulty with managing range, it's really frustrating for me though cause I'm becoming a victim of everything I loved about the peacekeeper. I'm just glad I know her well... >_>

Mia.Nora
08-21-2017, 01:44 AM
Now, some of you may have seen my arguments with the "centurion tracking is bullshi*" people, in which threads I've explained multiple times how the "tracking" in FH works. Most usually, attacks are made up of two parts: an "activation" phase, and an actual "committed". The former is when your character begins his swing/thrust/whatever from his natural form, and the latter is when he/she actually extends the attack into a full blown swing/thrust/whatever.

In the former phase, your character will "adjust" his "aim" according to the relative position of the target. This is what makes it possible for most attacks in the game to find their mark. However, in the latter phase, the attack is committed and from that point on, your character cannot adjust anymore.

So, the proper way to dodge attacks is to dodge at the latter phase, not the former phase. When you dodge at the former phase the attack will "track" you (or rather, your dodge was determined a failure and the animation will show you that as a result the attack will adjust its course to land on you).

Think of it as swinging a bat to a pitcher's throw. The batter looks at the incoming ball, and at the very beginning phase of the swing he adjusts his swinging up or down to meet the ball, but once the swing is out, it's committed. It's basically the same.

...
.

HL videos seems ok. Just a note about your high horse stance on Centurion bullsh*t; the way you formulated FH tracking works is just your personal interpretation of how it might be working, and it is wrong. If what you said were true, Shugoki charged heavy would track down the opponent dodging back, but it does not. Moreover Centurion's charged attack is the only attack in the game that isn't stuck on obstacles between attacker and its target staggering the attacker. Instead it simply goes around it, a behaviour no other attack in the game has. Also no other attack in the game is capable of catching a rolled away opponent.

A simple hint; do not make up your own facts when using those facts as the proof for your opinions.

FH developers dug a hole for themselves when they decided to make charged heavies behave with tracking to make it connect regardless of positioning instead of having a hitbox with a launch direction (the way every other attack in the game works). Now they are stuck in that hole.

kweassa1
08-21-2017, 01:55 AM
HL videos seems ok. Just a note about your high horse stance on Centurion bullsh*t; the way you formulated FH tracking works is just your personal interpretation of how it might be working, and it is wrong. If what you said were true, Shugoki charged heavy would track down the opponent dodging back, but it does not. Moreover Centurion's charged attack is the only attack in the game that isn't stuck on obstacles between attacker and its target staggering the attacker. Instead it simply goes around it, a behaviour no other attack in the game has. Also no other attack in the game is capable of catching a rolled away opponent.

A simple hint; do not make up your own facts when using those facts as the proof for your opinions.

FH developers dug a hole for themselves when they decided to make charged heavies behave with tracking to make it connect regardless of positioning instead of having a hitbox with a launch direction (the way every other attack in the game works). Now they are stuck in that hole.

It must really burn you up inside knowing what I said makes sense, and is probably right, doesn't it. ;)

Keep dreaming your version of fantasy. Never change. ROFL

(ps) I think you'd make good friends with creationists. "There is no direct evidence that evolution is true!!" *nyuk nyuk*

Mia.Nora
08-21-2017, 02:08 AM
It must really burn you up inside knowing what I said makes sense, and is probably right, doesn't it. ;)
Keep dreaming your version of fantasy. Never change. ROFL
(ps) I think you'd make good friends with creationists. "There is no direct evidence that evolution is true!!" *nyuk nyuk*

Not even remotely. I already debunked your theory in the post you replied by pointing out that Shugoki Charged Heavy should have also tracked the opponent dodging back, if what you said to be true. But it does not, because it simply does not work that way. You simply made something up, and did not even think twice before accepting as fact.

But I am really amused that you really believe in what you say so hard that, you can actually rely on the things you made up as facts to back your other claims.

Tundra 793
08-21-2017, 02:18 AM
It must really burn you up inside knowing what I said makes sense, and is probably right, doesn't it. ;)

But, what you said doesn't make any sense. If your idea of how tracking works is correct, that means that no single move in For Honor has a minimum or maximum range and will ignore all potential obstacles.
If for example, a Centurion charges up any unblockable, and you dodge back, despite having put twice the distance between you and the Centurion, his attack will still connect simply because you dodged too soon. If you dodged behind a rock, or a pillar his move will still connect, bypassing any obstacles you've put between you.

I don't agree that this is either how the game works, nor even how it should work.

Mia.Nora
08-21-2017, 02:20 AM
But, what you said doesn't make any sense. If your idea of how tracking works is correct, that means that no single move in For Honor has a minimum or maximum range and will ignore all potential obstacles.
If for example, a Centurion charges up any unblockable, and you dodge back, despite having put twice the distance between you and the Centurion, his attack will still connect simply because you dodged too soon. If you dodged behind a rock, or a pillar his move will still connect, bypassing any obstacles you've put between you.

I don't agree that this is either how the game works, nor even how it should work.

Ignore him, he just made it up. Like I said, if it were true Shugokis would be warping towards dodging opponents with their charged attacks same way.

What happens is that unlike other attacks that have a hitbox in the direction of attack (including jump direction in lunge attacks); Centurion's charged heavy's have a brand new mechanic for connecting, simply because unlike Shugoki, Raider swings, Centurion swings are too short to cover a meaningful area to actually pose a threat with just a hitbox collusion detection. And since they didn't want any side dodge at the moment of charge start to make it obsolete developers could not use the same lunge mechanics on his charged attacks, due to charged attack is not committed until it is released (unlike lunge attacks that go off immediately). So they decided to make it trace and connect regardless of positioning at the release of charged heavy, provided that enemy was in range at the time of starting the charge.

That's why we see all the ********, where people getting hit around corners, behind centurion or way too far away from him after a roll away; simply because as long as you were in his range at the moment of charge start, it does not matter where you are at the moment of release. That is the part that needs fixing. It needs to calculate path of launch at the moment of charged heavy release, as a lunge towards target BEHAVING SAME WAY every other lunge does.

That mechanic is unique to Centurion since other characters with charge attacks have big weapons with meaningful hitboxes not to need that. It is a hole they dug up for themselves to compensate for small size weapon wielding character having a charged attack.

PablO_Chaconn
08-21-2017, 06:45 AM
Kweassa1 has pretty much got it right ! Have to agree with him . I dodge 90% of cents tracking moves due to dodging in later stage

watsonclan335u
08-21-2017, 07:29 AM
Very well written and documented, everyone should carefully read this. Very perceptive and well done.

Alustar.
08-21-2017, 10:55 AM
Not even remotely. I already debunked your theory in the post you replied by pointing out that Shugoki Charged Heavy should have also tracked the opponent dodging back, if what you said to be true. But it does not, because it simply does not work that way. You simply made something up, and did not even think twice before accepting as fact.

But I am really amused that you really believe in what you say so hard that, you can actually rely on the things you made up as facts to back your other claims.

I like the use of the line "already debunked that" as if you are the foremost authority on the matter. I dodge 80% of legion kicks, jabs that aren't fully charged, and eagles talon attacks. Hell I even dodge and deflect their light it's hit.
So there I just "debunked" your debunking. Have a nice day

Herbstlicht
08-21-2017, 11:00 AM
Hm, not joining the mechanics discussion and the centurion stuff here. But, for the highlander, his kick into knockdown is dodgeable. Depending on spacing and timing, a simple backdodge does the trick - but thats for assassins only. Sadly, in case of this attack, a simple roll out does the trick if you want to be safe and reset to neutral. The pretty fast lights (400 ms) sadly mostly trade with your opponents lights and you can't spam them due to high stam cost. So its overall very interesting and strong against some slower heroes, but assassins can deal surprisingly well with this move. Good thing though is that you will see those dodges in duels only, in Dominion people roll out or fall for it, there was no in between for me yet.

Knight_Raime
08-21-2017, 11:01 AM
a nice thread. Yeah tracking for the most part is dictated by people dodging early.

Ontari
08-21-2017, 12:14 PM
Centurion tracking just hit the new BS level.

Playing as shugoki, with hyper armor on. I'm doing a heavy, cancelled in a demon's embrace, right when centurion charges his heavy.
What happens?
I go into embrace, and the f***er, standing in front of me, lunges into the air, ROTATES AROUND MY SHUGOKI WHO MISSES THE EMBRACE, AND HITS ME IN MY BACK!

Seriously, you want to defend it still? It's the only character in the game that can do such ridiculous things. Not only it looks dumb as f**c, but it is also ******ed in its very concept -.-

But I get it. The ones who play centurion getting easy kills will defend this ill-designed move to their graves.

Alustar.
08-21-2017, 11:26 PM
Centurion tracking just hit the new BS level.

Playing as shugoki, with hyper armor on. I'm doing a heavy, cancelled in a demon's embrace, right when centurion charges his heavy.
What happens?
I go into embrace, and the f***er, standing in front of me, lunges into the air, ROTATES AROUND MY SHUGOKI WHO MISSES THE EMBRACE, AND HITS ME IN MY BACK!

Seriously, you want to defend it still? It's the only character in the game that can do such ridiculous things. Not only it looks dumb as f**c, but it is also ******ed in its very concept -.-

But I get it. The ones who play centurion getting easy kills will defend this ill-designed move to their graves.

Not a Centurion player here and I can say with 100% accuracy that dodging Centurion is easy. I do it on my Highlander!

kweassa1
08-22-2017, 01:15 AM
Centurion tracking just hit the new BS level.

Playing as shugoki, with hyper armor on. I'm doing a heavy, cancelled in a demon's embrace, right when centurion charges his heavy.
What happens?
I go into embrace, and the f***er, standing in front of me, lunges into the air, ROTATES AROUND MY SHUGOKI WHO MISSES THE EMBRACE, AND HITS ME IN MY BACK!

Seriously, you want to defend it still? It's the only character in the game that can do such ridiculous things. Not only it looks dumb as f**c, but it is also ******ed in its very concept -.-

But I get it. The ones who play centurion getting easy kills will defend this ill-designed move to their graves.

You didn't get hit by "tracking" -- the "tracking" is merely a visual representation of what already happened in the system. For whatever reason the axial alignment was off on your Demon's Embrace. The Cent uses Eagle's Fury -- which already at this point it was determined you failed to respond to the Cent's EF -- and therefore the result is determined a 'hit'.

If it was some other class using a different attack, it would simply look like the weapon swing turned a little bit more, or the character turned a bit more on his heels and landed an attack. Unfortunately since the attack was 'airborne', the visual representation looks weird.


"Tracking" doesn't effect the game at all. Nobody gets hit by an attack they are not supposed to be hit with. People get hit when they make a mistake and fail in defense. It doesn't matter if the cent turns in air, or does a jumping 540 degrees moonsault or shi* -- the only relevant fact is you failed in defense, and therefore you got hit.