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View Full Version : Suggestion to overhaul Shinobi's feats. (detailed feedback, mods please consider)



Sneaky-Patches
08-19-2017, 06:26 PM
I think shinobi could really use an overhaul of his feats for 4v4 modes, and id like to offer some changes to feats alone. Problem is currently Shinobi is the worst hero in the game for group fighting, yet his feats are almost entirely set up to encourage group fighting. He is a ninja, and as such I think his feats should be set up to play to his stregnths, and to give him some gadgets that are more fun to use, and useful. After 20 reps with shinobi, id like to breakdown the ones he currently has and then offer some changes after that. thanks.

Problem currently is, all of his combined feats are stacked trying to offset how much shinobi is lacking in group fighting, something he is still terrible at when stacking every feat you have towards that weakness. Would've been cool if this class had a bunch of different tools on cooldown to keep your enemy guessing (as that's the whole point of a ninja, using underhanded tricks, traps, and gadgets to fool or misdirect your enemy)


Current gadget breakdown, and why they are overwhelmingly lacking


Feat 1
Stealth... Shinobis best feat, you need this. It's a necessity. Bounty hunter & (to a lesser extent) KIAI are just less effective.

Feat 2:
Throwing stars have a cooldown timer like 3 times longer than orochis kunai for the same damage. They are very underwhelming. You get to use it like 2-3 times in a full match, and because Shinobi is bad at group fighting, having a cone of fire at the expense of a decent cooldown or better damage is extremely useless.
Smoke is bad, you can quad dash away and already have stealth so smoke is pointless. Due to unlock and backroll being slow and inneffective, youll currently just get some orochi SR in, or other heroes just ZA into the smoke and plough through you.
Revenge attacks got nerfed, and regardless shinobi is so unbelieveably terrible in group fights that again, this is pointless. It's like giving a 4% damage buff to a lvl 2 player entering a rep80+ lobby.

Feat 3:
nuki kubi (stam regen on successful hit) you already have a hero that has plenty of stam anyway, also you won't be continuing any chains for that long to need it as you will be countered, and on the defensive long before then. If you are smashing someone so bad that you need unlimited stamina, then you dont need unlimited stamina.
Slip Through (increase attack damage for a second after a dodge) 100% useless, it doesn't even proc on dodging into kick into heavy. And you don't have a standard dodge attack as shinobi like all the other assasins anyway, it doesn't work except on deflects (but again, good luck deflecting your opponent to death, with deflect damage that won't stack, won't refresh and you have to wait 14 seconds before you can apply bleed again or else it won't count) super underwhelming.
Sharpen blade prob the best to run with, but again shinobi is hands down the worst group fighting hero so this is a poor feat.

Feat 4:
Yama uba (getting some health back on successful attacks). A good feat but it's just here to offset how gimped you are with health anyway, then you also get it towards the end of a game so...Its still the best in spot though, unless you want to use Nail bomb, or arrow storm (or whatever its called), these feats are OK and dont need change.

In stark comparison, I can run "kiai", "kunai", "sharpen blade", and "nail bomb" with orochi and decimate the entire team with a plethora of great gadgets(edit: I should add, the reason these gadgets are so great on orochi is because kiai works very well with orochi because his side heavies can be hard to read for stunned opponents, and sharpen blade on orochi is incredible because his moveset is excellent for group fighting), or zerker with both of his traps, throwing axe and fire flask. But I feel like I get to throw some shooting stars twice a round with Shinobi and that's kinda it? He should be one of the best with gadgets and snaky underhanded tactics in dominion/ elimination to make up for the inability to take on groups in a conventional way.

Solution

First, I think the Stealth feat should just be a given to shinobi and not take up a slot as a nice incentive to counter his poor moveset for group fighting. Then add in some better feats and just remove the useless ones (or leave them there if people wish)

FEAT 1 (basic offence/defence)
1) Move "smoke" to this slot. Shinobi's should have better vision in smoke and either add a small shield buff like before OR allow shinobi to remain locked onto enemies in smoke. (because its still bad after the recent update)
2) Tweak "KIAI" (stun scream) so it extends a litte bit further to the left and right hand side to stun a gank squad and allow quick repositoning AND/ OR allow it to activave a half a second faster. OR instead of KIAI, you could add in "Flash bombs". They would work like KIAI, but activate in a full circle around the player applying the same stun affect as KIAI. Shinobi would quickly throw a bomb down stunning everyone briefly. Flash bombs would be twice as quick as KIAI to activate, but the cooldown in 1.5 times longer.
3) Add orochisKunai here but increase the cooldown time by 1.5X

FEAT 2 (anti gank- group fighting feats)
1) Add in a feat called Caltrops. Caltrops can be quickly sprinkled on the ground with a very sneaky & quick animation. Caltrops are like a super weak "bear trap" that only lasts on the ground for 40 seconds or so before disappearing. They slightly damage the opponent (tiny amount of bleed damage) and trap them for 1/2 the time of a bear trap. ( to balance it, players can still CGB while trapped). Once stepped on they "Activate" for 1.5 seconds before disappearing, any enemies standing on caltrops during the "activation" stage will get stuck (so a gank group running over them will all get stunned). Can also be used when running (Or supersprinting) to thwart off attackers (BUT! this new debuff for "runners" can fully ignore caltrops) or used to set quick ambushes if you can predict your enemy's movements. Has a faster respawn time than "Bear trap".
2) Add in a gadget called "Poison Bomb". This is the exact same as smoke, except it applies 1 bar of poison damage to enemies in the cloud upon detination. Enemies that continue to stay in the cloud for longer will continue to take poison damage. Shinobi, can also 1) See much better through the smoke. & 2) Still lock onto people from inside the smoke. This will be an excellent tool to disperse ganks and force the enemy to to back off for a few seconds.
3) Change "Slip through (passive) (from tier 3) to 'Shadow training (passive) and place in tier 2. Shadow training drastically increases Deflect damage. It adds a 2.5X- 3X deflect damage multiplier to attacks coming from off screen, and a 2x multiplier to enemies you are locked onto. (can change multiplier values around for necessary balance)

FEAT 3 (projectiles):
1) move "poisoned" throwing stars here, but drastically reduce their cooldown & slightly buff the "stagger" effect by 2 feet or so (how far enemies get knocked backwards) (but not their stagger time, leave that the same). The "poison" effect adds the stun effect to the enemy for 4 seconds or so. It is affected by debuff res stat. OR the poison effect could either add a small amount of bleed/ or a stam regen debuff for a few seconds. Alternatively If the stun (and other added effects) is OP, just the other changes will do (cooldown/ stagger), but the primary goal is a much quicker cooldown for this feat, but not an overly damaging gadget.
2) Add in a very low damage throwing knife. Could use the "Sai" knife as the model for the animation. Its the knife Shinobi already has on most of his clothing (the 3 pronged dagger one). This knifes primary goal is to pin the enemy in place for 7 seconds or so (unless hit which immediately frees you from the pin)(you also cant be hit with unblockable animation-lock moves from this pin, like cents charged heavy or shugokis hug etc. but will still take damage and be knocked free). The goal of this gadget is to "pin" one enemy in place while you have 7 seconds or so to fight the other enemy. Perfect gadget to help in 1v2.
3) add in a blow gun that applies slightly more (100% bleed) damage (than zerkers throwing axe), but at the cost of a longer and telegraphed animation.

FEAT 4 (leave as is):

These feats are good, although Arrow storm could use better UI that more accurately indicates the landing zone of the arrows, as its a little lacking in comparison to catapult or highlanders spar storm.

Having better ninjaish gadgets would at least make this class more unique in dominion games and much more fun to play, while also defining Shinobis role a little more. It wouldnt break him in 1v1 either. I dont think he will ever be as good as the other assasins when being ganked (due to the moveset) but giving him solid ways to use great gadgets, disperse ganks, and fool enemies would be a welcome change, and might be a cool way to level the playing field in a different way. Because right now shinobi is lacking pretty hard in 4v4, and having bad gadgets I think is a huge part of it. Thanks for reading, feel free to disagree with ones you didnt like, or offer other suggestions!

Sneaky-Patches
08-19-2017, 09:53 PM
Anyone agree/ disagree? I really think he could use some feats that aren't pointless and bring more to the class.

UbiNoty
08-19-2017, 11:12 PM
Hey Sneaky-Patches! Thanks for the detailed feat breakdown and feedback! I'm not aware of any plans just yet to do any Shinobi feat changes, but I'll forward it over to the team because I think they'd appreciate it either way and would enjoy seeing some feat feedback as opposed to the more common hero feedback :)

Sneaky-Patches
08-19-2017, 11:33 PM
Hey Sneaky-Patches! Thanks for the detailed feat breakdown and feedback! I'm not aware of any plans just yet to do any Shinobi feat changes, but I'll forward it over to the team because I think they'd appreciate it either way and would enjoy seeing some feat feedback as opposed to the more common hero feedback :)

Awesome! Thanks a ton :) it's be great to get a few more feats that are a little more crafty, or non-passives to mess around with.

tumenergia
08-19-2017, 11:52 PM
Totally agree with throwing stars cool down being huge and want to add the fact that they often miss aswel... Maybe add something that target's? Blow pipe of a throwing knife.


I love the idea behind slip through feat but it doesn't really seem to work all that well.
Using it at the moment. But think about using sharpen blades instead.