PDA

View Full Version : 190 in the vertical



XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:59 PM
Hi all,

Just a question, I've installed only recently the 1.11 over the 1.1

In the 1.1, I was really able to use the 190 in the vertical.

With the 1.11, I've again problems again the Russian fighters in dives or zoom climb (lot of stalls too).

Am I doing something wrong or is it just like that?

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 09:59 PM
Hi all,

Just a question, I've installed only recently the 1.11 over the 1.1

In the 1.1, I was really able to use the 190 in the vertical.

With the 1.11, I've again problems again the Russian fighters in dives or zoom climb (lot of stalls too).

Am I doing something wrong or is it just like that?

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:03 PM
Welcome to the Luftwhiners. Clint-ruin will be here shortly to tell you that you are wrong and he has a track of it to prove you wrong



"Of all my accomplishments I may have achieved during the war, I am proudest of the fact that I never lost a wingman. It was my view that no kill was worth the life of a wingman. . . . Pilots in my unit who lost wingmen on this basis were prohibited from leading a [section]. They were made to fly as wingman, instead."
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann "Karaya One"

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:27 PM
He, he, I've noticed that this Clint is rather pavlovian on these subjects /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

No honestly, the 190 in 1.1 looked rather realistic, good instantenaous turn rate, energy bleed in sustained turns.

In 1.11, try to use this good instanteneous turn rate and you stall!

Btw, after 1.1, there had been a strong red whining about the vertical capacities of the German fighters, that's perhaps the reason /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:55 PM
From Youss's and Olegs posts, the 190A series is supposedly 'spot on' in terms of speed, climb rate, etc. Cube's tests of Il2Compare data vs 'real life' test data seem to bear this out more or less.

Elevator authority was increased in 1.11 after considerable user lobbying. So much so that it's now quite an easy plane to stall out. There is however an issue with sudden elevator/elevator trim pullouts which allow something like a 17 to 43g dive pullout with no blackout until after the move is completed. In normal flight conditions it's just a plane that requires a steady hand to control. You might want to look at decreasing your pitch sensitivity in the controls menu - if you want to do this just for flying the 190, you can set up a '190' pilot with its own independant control bindings from any other sets you have.

I think this is maybe just another case of Oleg caving in to pressure from the users and then having another set of people complain about the results. Oleg has already sort-of replied to someone about the FW190's stalls - wasn't the question he was asked as far as I know, but he answered it anyway :>



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 11:11 PM
Wasn't the 190 known for snap stalls if pushed to hard?

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 11:16 PM
clint-ruin wrote:
There is
- however an issue with sudden elevator/elevator trim
- pullouts which allow something like a 17 to 43g dive
- pullout with no blackout until after the move is
- completed.

???? What you posted is pure BS.

I fly the 190 all the time. If you're moving fast and load the plane with G's you will black the hell out, lose control and face plant. And before the blackout you grayout. "17 to 43G's???" ROTFLMAO...

Do you have any idea how fast you'd have to be going to pull 10Gs let alone "17." Where on Earth do you get your nonsense?

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:21 AM
Forget it, for the most part you need an exaggerated situational advantage.With those ridiculous climb and turn times of those ufo soviet fighters you have a severe unhistorical tactical restriction.
Oh yeah that 800 kph elevator response is such a tactical advantage,right.Well geuss what? If those vvs UFOs werent so utterly uberized you wouldnt get on my 6 in the first place!!!!They are a joke.Sorry its true.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:26 AM
Agreed, what a load of rubbish...where are those G numbers coming from. I find the F190's need to be flown very gingerly in pitch. Very little stick motion when pulling hard in a turn. If you think you can just snatch that stick back to the stop and not have the airplane depart then hey head to the arcade!

Man oh man...I do enjoy the FW190's! Love them and if one maintains high E they are glorious.

Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:32 AM
Yep she's a beauty to fly now although the roll rate is too fast and we do get too much elevator authority at high speeds. Heres proof that many of us so called 'Luftwhinners' aren't just after an unfair advantage we just want it (and all other aircraft) to fly right.


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:52 AM
Yeah its fine with me if they put more speed effect on the control responses.It was still superior in real life.

ZG77_Nagual
09-27-2003, 12:55 AM
Interesting - I had no trouble going from 1.1b to 1.11 in the 190. You just have to go easy on the stick - but she's still all there. The la7 climb may have got a boost however - and you really do have to watch your e. Planes the the p39 - with it's excellent energy retention - can gain alot in a shallow dive - and keep it better than you expect. 190 will still outdive and outturn the competition at high speeds - and the inst turn is great for snapshots. I'm guessing you maybe over controlling a bit.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 02:41 AM
"From Youss's and Olegs posts, the 190A series is supposedly 'spot on' in terms of speed, climb rate, etc. Cube's tests of Il2Compare data vs 'real life' test data seem to bear this out more or less.

Elevator authority was increased in 1.11 after considerable user lobbying. So much so that it's now quite an easy plane to stall out. There is however an issue with sudden elevator/elevator trim pullouts which allow something like a 17 to 43g dive pullout with no blackout until after the move is completed. In normal flight conditions it's just a plane that requires a steady hand to control. You might want to look at decreasing your pitch sensitivity in the controls menu - if you want to do this just for flying the 190, you can set up a '190' pilot with its own independant control bindings from any other sets you have.

I think this is maybe just another case of Oleg caving in to pressure from the users and then having another set of people complain about the results. Oleg has already sort-of replied to someone about the FW190's stalls - wasn't the question he was asked as far as I know, but he answered it anyway"

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thanks for the laugh mate.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 03:02 AM
I don't recall the exact post, but Oleg implied that stick sensitivity changed, not modelled elevator authority.

Barfly
Executive Officer
7. Staffel, JG 77 "Black Eagles"

http://www.7jg77.com

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 06:43 AM
I posted something similar CHDT. It just seemed that the 190 was a little more effective at retaining energy and going vertical after first patch. In 1.11 it just seems a little less effective. I think the 190's performance is pretty close, it is the VVS planes (and P-39) with their exaggerated performance that is the problem.

This would make the 190 perfect IMHO:

-Proper DM, but is still tough.
-Decrease in roll-rate at very high speeds.
-Decreased elevator response at very high speeds (though this should remain one of the 190's strengths).
-The "auto" feature working properly, as it is now 100% prop pitch gives best performance.
-Removal of "the bar" (IMHO it has been proved). I can live with it as is though.
-Elimination of "1 or 2 hits = big performance hit" bug.
-Elimination of "sawing off wing with one bullet from long distance" bug.

Hopefully the last two will come with re-worked damaged model.

And of course the fixing (detuning) of the VVS planes (and P-39). But like you I am also worried about making honest remarks. The 190 was excellent after the first patch but seems rather ordinary now. At least it hasn't returned to the dog it was, yet. And good luck getting La and Yak drivers to admit there is something wrong. At least the P-39 guys seem to admit that something is off.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 09/27/0305:54AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 07:34 AM
To those *stupid* enough to commit to a turn in a Focke Wulf (you just don't GET it, do you?)....some advice.

PRE-FEED rudder into the turn to ward off those accelerated stalls. Instead of kicking a little rudder while banking and pulling, kick the rudder a bit first and then move the stick. Anticipate turns with rudder.

And try to remember....instantaneous turn, good. Sustained turn...BAD. If you don't have the shot within 1/3 of a circle....you don't have the shot. Zoom out of there, get your energy and speed back up, reverse in the vertical (pitchback, Split-S or do the dreaded LW Stomp wingover reverse if you're a real stud) and attack again.

I've found the 190s to always be pretty close to what my impression is of how they should fly. Never got "into" them enough to tell whether they were more than +/-10% off (like the old assertion that the A4 was underpowered), but whenever I flew one, it acted like a FW190 to me.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 08:10 AM
Stiglr wrote:

- PRE-FEED rudder into the turn to ward off those
- accelerated stalls. Instead of kicking a little
- rudder while banking and pulling, kick the rudder a
- bit first and then move the stick. Anticipate turns
- with rudder.

Good advice. Flying planes like the 190 and P-47 will really teach you how to use, and the importance of, rudder control. Also, I don't go into the vertical unless I have a HUGE speed advantage and I am positive no other enemies are around.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 09/27/0307:11AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 09:08 AM
feiz wrote:
- clint-ruin wrote:
- There is
-- however an issue with sudden elevator/elevator trim
-- pullouts which allow something like a 17 to 43g dive
-- pullout with no blackout until after the move is
-- completed.
-
- ???? What you posted is pure BS.
-
- I fly the 190 all the time. If you're moving fast
- and load the plane with G's you will black the hell
- out, lose control and face plant. And before the
- blackout you grayout. "17 to 43G's???" ROTFLMAO...
-
- Do you have any idea how fast you'd have to be going
- to pull 10Gs let alone "17." Where on Earth do you
- get your nonsense?
-

Hm, yeah. Where did he "get his nonsense"? Learn some more about the game and planes before you make an idiot of yourself, feiz.

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yyqit&tpage=3&direction=0



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 10:55 AM
Good lord, thanks for finding that one Heart-C! I knew I'd seen screenshots someone posted of it happening once, and Ugly Kid even analysed it to G numbers but I couldn't find it in the search. I spent about 40 minutes trying to find the bloody thing and gave up.

I was wrong on the numbers though: 14 to 28 rather than 18/43.

Ugly Kid says, after looking at HeartC's track here: http://members.aol.com:/desaintexyp/private/gtest2.ntrk

______
The last manouver seemed a bit drastic I looked at the stick where you started the pull up. I got 848 km/h TAS at 1:46 and 243 m altitude. The end of the manouver is at 794 km/h 1:47 and 56 m. The max. error in time is 1 s thx to the ingame watch but you will get anything from 14 to 28 g for that leaning to the higher value. Yes, that is defenately not in order. Aerodynamically the manouver is still barely within stall limit so what you're seeing here is two things. 1) The force need for that pull-up with FW stick force per gee is about 340 pounds and 2) The pilot reaction to gees comes a bit slowly. So in the end the second applies to complete sim and the first applies partly to FW (allowing too high deflection at a high speed) and to the complete game (allowing increase of pull-up force that fast). So you should send that to the dev. team and see what they will say about that.
______

Here's Cube's analysis:

http://www.zmogausteises.lt/fb/FW190climb.jpg


I don't need to post a track saying "you is wrong", LW_lcarp, I just need to be able to read.

It's a handy skill.

You should try it someday.



http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_parasite.jpg

Need help with NewView? Read this thread. (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj)

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 11:25 AM
About the G's, all the aircrafts in FB can get too much G: they can fly all like svallows before a storm, making too sharp turns, it's pehraps fun like that, but not very realistic!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:34 PM
I agree CHDT. It's a general problem, because with no plane in IL2 or FB overstress due to over-G is modelled. I see this as one major downside in FB's realism. Warbirds, Aces High and even EAW for example have over-G airframe failure. The thing however is that it becomes especially obvious and usable in the 190, because it's the only plane which loses no notable control authority even at very high speeds.

Regards
heartc

=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:43 PM
I had gotten used to the somewhat difficult flight characteristics of the 190A... now it seems almost too easy.. Even though I suck online, I liked flying a plane that most others didn't like because it was too 'hard'...

<img src=http://home.insightbb.com/%7Edspinnett/NonSpeed/SpeedToys.jpg </img>
http://hometown.aol.com/spinnetti/

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 12:54 PM
Except for the flap trick and the loss of energy, the most credible 190 was the last-patched 190 of IL-2. In FB, I've sometimes the feeling that the 190 is a bit too light.

Cheers,



Message Edited on 09/27/0312:04PM by CHDT

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 01:02 PM
clint-ruin wrote:
- From Youss's and Olegs posts, the 190A series is
- supposedly 'spot on' in terms of speed, climb rate,
- etc. Cube's tests of Il2Compare data vs 'real life'
- test data seem to bear this out more or less.


Yes this is true. Cube test shows LW planes being quite spot on. FW190 being a bit overmodelled, and Bf109 a bit undermodelled (except G2). That's OK. Problem is Cube test also shows that VVS seems to be way overmodelled. Then, LW looks crap relative to VVS.

I don't want a rocket climber bullet proof 109, I just want to outclimb La7's.



<center>http://www.geocities.com/dangdenge2004/arau.txt



|TAO|

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 03:30 PM
Well all 190 flyers have accepted that the plane needs at least to have its control response adjusted to model effects of very high speed,meaning less response.
The fact of the matter is, as it is ,it is of little practical tactical value.
The fact that certain vvs planes exceed their accepted specifications in climb by 25-95% and turn by 10%+ means the german planes(which are within + - 5% or less in those areas)have to seek an exaggerated alt/speed advantage, because the energy bleed is not present in those vvs planes that are doing these super-turns and climbs.

So the effect is that the vvs are not only much superior in angles fighting,but with the exception of max dive speed(which is easily dealt with)are superior in energy fighting as well.And that is total B.S.

XyZspineZyX
09-28-2003, 02:10 PM
a4/a5 climb 16m/sec with 1,32ata 1540ps //eric brown test

all 190a climb in objedata are with 1,32ata

in game use a5 erh√¬∂hten ladedruck 2050ps 1,65ata,that are 30% more power as with 1,32 ata.

a5 is too slow with 2050ps,she is without bombrach 10km/h faster as a8,

that means 595km/h sealevel.