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UbiJurassic
08-15-2017, 02:32 AM
Greetings Warriors,

With the start of Season 3, we know many players are excited to see and use Highlander on the battlefield. In anticipation of your feedback, we ask that you leave your thoughts regarding balance for the Highlander here. This will allow us to better organize your initial feedback regarding the hero.

If you’d like to leave feedback regarding the Gladiator, you can find the feedback thread for that here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1725462-Season-3-Gladiator-Feedback-Forums).

Thanks and enjoy the battlefields!

sliceoflife555
08-15-2017, 04:55 PM
Why is the Highlander considered a Hybrid rather than a Heavy? He's Slow, hits like a truck, and even uses a Defensive stance as his default stance. Yet, he's labeled as a Hybrid??

kweassa1
08-15-2017, 06:39 PM
The superior block trait on light @ Defense form, and the uninterrupted light attack @ Offense form actually needs to be switched.


The current problem is that the Offense form is fairly limited due to lack of defense.. and while I understand that conceptually Offense form is offense, and Defense form is defense, in terms of gameplay people become way too sparing of Offense form and only use it at very distinct, certain parts of the fight -- and would generally rely on Defense form like 80%~90% of the time.

Therefore, switch the light traits out.


(1) At defense form, attacks are limited but still some amount of pressuring the opponent may be used with lights that aren't interrupted by block (a la Shugoki) -- and this actually aids with defensive capability since opponents are more careful of possible mix-ups with lights when HL is in Defense form.

(2) At offense form, the short but fast lights should have superior block attack properties, so @ Offense form literally "offense is best defense" -- because blocks and parries are disabled, basically you pressure the opponent with threats of UB heavies, and then use your own light attacks to block out incoming enemy attacks so that Offense form can be used more aggressively... instead of just being a gimmicky combo finisher move

ChampionRuby50g
08-15-2017, 06:44 PM
The Highlanders feats are a little bit dissapointing, compared to the Gladiator. Too early for me to say anything else (:

lMoosel
08-15-2017, 07:34 PM
So far I have mixed feelings, I've found some ok mixups but his GB needs to be addressed. It needs more range and as it sits now he gets next to nothing off a parry. If that's because he's tooled towards the up coming meta then it's understandable. He seems to be very outclassed by anybody with fast attacks even with armor trades.

kweassa1
08-15-2017, 07:45 PM
So far I have mixed feelings, I've found some ok mixups but his GB needs to be addressed. It needs more range and as it sits now he gets next to nothing off a parry. If that's because he's tooled towards the up coming meta then it's understandable. He seems to be very outclassed by anybody with fast attacks even with armor trades.

- Heavy Parry - light or zone1 (guaranteed)
- Heavy Parry - light - OS(offense stance) - mix-ups (a la Kensei)
- Heavy Parry - light - OS - light(guaranteed) - mix-ups
- Heavy Parry - heavy button hold - OS - mix-ups


- light Parry - heavy button hold - OS - UB heavy (guaranteed)
- light Parry - heavy button hold - OS - kick - UB heavy (guaranteed)


Doesn't really need the GB... although it does irk a bit in positioning stuff like walls or ledges.

Highlander is basically a Kensei 2.0 with better UB feint game.

kweassa1
08-15-2017, 09:16 PM
Sorry, wrong info.

1. No guaranteed normal attacks after heavy parry.
2. Heavy parry - OS(Offense Stance) - Light guaranteed
3. Light arry - OS - UB heavy guaranteed
4. Light arry - OS - kick - UB heavy guaranteed
5. OS - kick - UB heavy guaranteed (if kick hits, UB heavy hits)

S0Mi_xD
08-15-2017, 10:46 PM
The superior block trait on light @ Defense form, and the uninterrupted light attack @ Offense form actually needs to be switched.


The current problem is that the Offense form is fairly limited due to lack of defense.. and while I understand that conceptually Offense form is offense, and Defense form is defense, in terms of gameplay people become way too sparing of Offense form and only use it at very distinct, certain parts of the fight -- and would generally rely on Defense form like 80%~90% of the time.

Therefore, switch the light traits out.


(1) At defense form, attacks are limited but still some amount of pressuring the opponent may be used with lights that aren't interrupted by block (a la Shugoki) -- and this actually aids with defensive capability since opponents are more careful of possible mix-ups with lights when HL is in Defense form.

(2) At offense form, the short but fast lights should have superior block attack properties, so @ Offense form literally "offense is best defense" -- because blocks and parries are disabled, basically you pressure the opponent with threats of UB heavies, and then use your own light attacks to block out incoming enemy attacks so that Offense form can be used more aggressively... instead of just being a gimmicky combo finisher move

I need to agree here, this is the first thing i noticed.

It is a good balanced hero, but his superior block counter is much to easy and if people getting the timing it will be a similar problem like superior block from Conqu on heavy attack.

I had the same idea like kweassa1, swap the traits of the light attacks from offense and defense stance.

KotoKuraken
08-15-2017, 10:55 PM
Can we not have have innate unblockables in Dominion? It's like you took the unblockable feat and made it apply 100% of the time, and you can't guard against outside Highlanders. Parrying is almost impossible, especially since you still get staggered in Revenge

Haemmerst0rm
08-15-2017, 11:31 PM
I got highlander to rep 1 level 10. My opinion is the next: He is a good hero, he is fun to play. But there are really some issues you guys have to check out:

- He is way too slow
- He is too easy to be guardbroken (let highlander attack you while youre blocking, and when theyre done you just GB him and hit him hard).
- Highlander needs GB after a parry, his GB range is WAY WAY WAY TOO SHORT. Come on. Is he a T-rex with very tiny arms or what? Look at his height! Look at his musscles! If he cant get a decend GB, then he is literally ****ed.
- He is not good in 1vs1.
- His stamina pool might be too big, he can do more then 5 unblockable heavies without being out of stamina. (This is the same issue as centurion with his massive stamina pool and endlessly delivering blows until the opponent is dead).

And the biggest ******** thing is:
- I cannot grab warlord in revenge with the unblockable offensive grab. How broken is that? Come on! Its a ******* unblockable!

Stahlrusse
08-15-2017, 11:33 PM
The Sprint attack kills only 1 or two minions, whereas sprint attacks of other heroes kill more than that. It looks ridiculous when the HIghlander swings his huge sword and kills only one minion. Please fix this.

Jasado
08-16-2017, 12:02 AM
Highlander cannot guarantee any directional heavy from a grab. That is f**ked up.

Highlander cannot grab from a parry, so he can't even take advantage of a grab to shove someone into a wall since he can't heavy from a grab. That is f**ked up.

If you parry into offensive stance, the kick is not guaranteed, so you have to 50/50 with a Caber Toss (which doesn't have steamlined timings) and hope they dodge into it, just to land an Offensive Stance heavy. Which does less damage than a DEFENSIVE stance heavy overhead. That is f**ked up.

Highlander's Stamina costs need to be reduced. These costs are nuts. Especially in offensive stance. Since I have to cancel into it out of a parry, then do a minimum of 3 moves just to hope I confirm some damage, I am at severe risk of being OOS for playing BETTER? What?

This character has no double light specials, so why are there so many situations you only allow a light attack confirmation?

Also, on the subject of lights, the previous feedback from Kweassa and that other guy are on point. Swapping the Offensive and Defensive stance Light Attack properties makes a lot more sense in execution. Frankly, even if you don't, the range of offensive stance lights are way too short - even after a parry, especially on slanted ground, I can't even land an Offensive LIGHT attack because it won't reach or the attack goes through their body and doesn't hit. That and the huge stamina costs, I can't take advantage of the properties the light attack gives because I risk OOS or can't finish the combo because of stamina.

Zone attack needs super armor, the very people you need it against are the ones most able to interrupt it with faster attacks. If you gave it hard stagger on normal block that would be nice, you say yourself it's one of the heaviest weapon's in combat history, the claymore. Currently it's free parry fodder after the first swing, heavy stagger on normal block would reduce this versus multiple people and make considering the second or third swings being canceled or not for chip damage a valid choice rather than suicide.

Offensive Stance overhead should be a premiere killing attack, like berzerker's, kensei's, and raider's combo zone. It does less damage than a defensive stance overhead. Please fix that. When I land a kick I should drop a dome cleaving meaty overhead claymore chop both players feel. Currently it's just a whack.

Really though, overall I have to say props. I love this character's intended design. It just needs some polish to work effectively in the game. Highlander is very cool, but some things definitely seem off or completely overlooked. Please investigate.

Jasado
08-16-2017, 01:28 AM
To follow up politely, please spend a good 5 minutes in the reddit for competitive for honor, where they provide frame data and testing among the best that shows all my worst concerns and fears about Highlander are basically confirmed. While Gladiator seems to be at an okay starting point, Highlander, absolutely, is not. Poor damage, poor health, but is supposed to trade with super armor, and the super armor is slower than warlord or shugoki? The only thing confirmable off a LIGHT parry is the first hit of zone, same for grabs...and his lights are so slow people can parry them. Eventually people will feint a heavy to trick him into doing his light to counter it, then parry his light for their best punish, meanwhile he has literally no followup from a normal parry, and his "best" confirm from the best kind of parry (a light one) is a huge portion of his stamina to do only 25 damage that also can't execute. The more I learn and test and share with other Highlander players the worse and worse it gets. Who playtested this character before release? People are already saying he's worse off than Kensei with frame data to back it up. Offense stance is a joke for damage and his two mixups, kick with caber toss, and celtic curse crossups are both easily learned to avoid and will be downloaded in shorter time than Kensei overhead ender. :(

Trbevis
08-16-2017, 01:30 AM
He is an absolute joke so far haha, for a big viking guy with a ridiculous size sword hes insanely quick, and especially for the assassins whos dodge and only half the time manage to escape that 6 metre long stupid sword hahaha

kweassa1
08-16-2017, 01:39 AM
The gaping irony is that the HL isn't too bad at all IF WE SUPPOSE THE META-FIX WAS INCLUDED WITH SEASON3 -- because under that standards, the HL would just have a slightly weaker parry punish than most, but have better post-parry mix-up tactics than most.

As it is, the HL is basically playing under the rules of the meta-fix by himself. :D

kweassa1
08-16-2017, 01:57 AM
As for the parry regime I think I've got it figured out.


vs. heavy attacks
- no reason to use parry
- use supblock light for immediate counter attack - OF(offense form)- mix-up
- if for any reason you've parried a heavy, parry-OF-light- mix-up

vs. light attacks
- use parries vs. light attacks only
- parry-OF-heavy
- parry-OF-kcik-heavy

RLTygurr
08-16-2017, 02:18 AM
Managed to get Highlander to rep 1 lv 15 today, and I've got a fair bit of experience against all the other heroes with him.

The fact that his guard break range is so short is only made worse by the lack of any real punish unless there's a wall nearby (his throw range is surprisingly large). Even so, it feels awkward to only deal 40 damage with a top heavy since it seems like such a powerful move from the animation, sound effect, and everything else. Overall, that particular move is very much the standard by which the rest of Highlander's damage numbers are judged, and since this is less than even a warden's top heavy (which is confirmed off of a light parry as well as a wallsplat) does more damage and a berzerker's top heavy does 55 damage (15 more) for nearly the exact same attack speed. I feel like this doesn't really make sense in practice.

As some people mentioned above, the light attack properties feel backwards, but with the offensive light attacks being so blindingly fast, I can't imagine not interrupting an opponent's attack unless it had hyper armor.

His dashing heavy is one of his primary opening abilities, as it's able to be delayed pretty late, which causes a lot of people to fail in their parry attempts. I feel like it may need an adjustment or two in stamina cost to switch directions with the move, simply because it feels like this is the main move people use as it opens up a lot of combos.

I feel that his parry punish needs to be just a bit more streamlined. As it stands, you get nothing on a heavy parry unless there's a wall involved that holds them close enough for you to guard break them, and you get (at most) a zone attack cancel (which eats up about 60% of your stamina bar alone) from a light parry. This seems like way too much of a price to pay for not much damage. I'd recommend allowing you to switch into offensive stance immediately upon throwing or parrying someone, with a single offensive heavy guaranteed. This reduces his overall stamina cost to do the roughly the same amount of damage (enough to actually beat an opponent with a parry when both are at critical health) as any other character's parry punish.

I'd like some more control over Highlander's zone attack. Right now, it feels like I have no control over where he's spinning and it becomes necessary to cancel after the first hit in order to conserve stamina while trying to clear soldier waves. It feels like a nobushi zone but much more stamina draining and killing less soldiers per swing.

In all, I love playing Highlander. He's a breath of fresh air in a meta that's been so focused on not taking damage and he's a unique character in both his design, sound design, and play style. I love what you guys have done with him and for the most part he's one of the most balanced characters in the game. However, his sheer number of options at any given time is staggering, which can make it a bit difficult to defend against him at all.

kweassa1
08-16-2017, 02:30 AM
Managed to get Highlander to rep 1 lv 15 today, and I've got a fair bit of experience against all the other heroes with him.

The fact that his guard break range is so short is only made worse by the lack of any real punish unless there's a wall nearby (his throw range is surprisingly large). Even so, it feels awkward to only deal 40 damage with a top heavy since it seems like such a powerful move from the animation, sound effect, and everything else. Overall, that particular move is very much the standard by which the rest of Highlander's damage numbers are judged, and since this is less than even a warden's top heavy (which is confirmed off of a light parry as well as a wallsplat) does more damage and a berzerker's top heavy does 55 damage (15 more) for nearly the exact same attack speed. I feel like this doesn't really make sense in practice.

As some people mentioned above, the light attack properties feel backwards, but with the offensive light attacks being so blindingly fast, I can't imagine not interrupting an opponent's attack unless it had hyper armor.

His dashing heavy is one of his primary opening abilities, as it's able to be delayed pretty late, which causes a lot of people to fail in their parry attempts. I feel like it may need an adjustment or two in stamina cost to switch directions with the move, simply because it feels like this is the main move people use as it opens up a lot of combos.

I feel that his parry punish needs to be just a bit more streamlined. As it stands, you get nothing on a heavy parry unless there's a wall involved that holds them close enough for you to guard break them, and you get (at most) a zone attack cancel (which eats up about 60% of your stamina bar alone) from a light parry. This seems like way too much of a price to pay for not much damage. I'd recommend allowing you to switch into offensive stance immediately upon throwing or parrying someone, with a single offensive heavy guaranteed. This reduces his overall stamina cost to do the roughly the same amount of damage (enough to actually beat an opponent with a parry when both are at critical health) as any other character's parry punish.

I'd like some more control over Highlander's zone attack. Right now, it feels like I have no control over where he's spinning and it becomes necessary to cancel after the first hit in order to conserve stamina while trying to clear soldier waves. It feels like a nobushi zone but much more stamina draining and killing less soldiers per swing.

In all, I love playing Highlander. He's a breath of fresh air in a meta that's been so focused on not taking damage and he's a unique character in both his design, sound design, and play style. I love what you guys have done with him and for the most part he's one of the most balanced characters in the game. However, his sheer number of options at any given time is staggering, which can make it a bit difficult to defend against him at all.

Again, the following are guaranteed:
- heavy attack parry (hold button) - OF - light
- light attack parry (hold button) - OF - hvy

Mia.Nora
08-16-2017, 02:39 AM
Crushing Counterstrike on ALL sides is OP.

Before git gud crowd loses their marbles, just swallow your anger and read below.

Highlander has Crushing Counterstrike on all sides where his light beats incoming attack and deals very high damage, the same skill Warden has on top lights. The way this is put in action is exactly the same way with Valkyrie light superior block game. This is a skill I practiced often with my Valkyrie lights superior block property, instead of parrying incoming attacks I just light into my opponent's incoming attack. Since Valkyrie after parry game is not very strong anyway, I often choose to do so in a safer way that deals with feint games better.

Here is the thing; on Valkyrie this is pretty balanced since her lights do quite low damage. On the other hand Highlander Crushing Counterstrike, just like Warden's, deals a tremendous amount of damage. This means any attempt at going on offensive vs Highlander, even with lights, is extremely lopsided in terms of risk vs reward. If he beats incoming attacks in a 1 in 3 rate he comes on top of that trade.

Highlander toolkit is strong enough with its mixups. I tested his Celtic Curse Top>Side mixup vs Warden Top light with 500ms thrown without changing guard direction (already on top block); and Highlander still beats it in terms of speed. He has UI on his heavies for trading. And those are just defensive bits in his kit without Caber Toss mixups.

When on top of those Highlander has access to crushing counterstrike on all sides he becomes way too dangerous to attempt to on offensive against. This is forcing me to turtle real hard vs him. Last thing we want in this game is another moveset that forces people to turtle real hard due to how heavy it punishes on mistakes. On the Highlander's case, throwing any attack is a mistake.


A move that is so easy to pull off, that punishes any attack will result in making heroes without unblockables to be obsolete vs Highlander. Champs without unblockables already play subpar, and frankly unblockable attacks are not the healthiest thing in the game in the first place. Unless this is addressed gameplay will become even more so bland and boring.

Jasado
08-16-2017, 03:18 AM
Unfortunately, his light attacks are slower than a Centurion's heavy. His parry frames do not start until around 300ish ms into the move, so counting guard switch speed and attack start up, it is actually impossible for him to counterstrike anything on reaction besides heavy spam. He cannot reactive counter lights period. Also, the attack is slow enough that you can feint a heavy and parry his light on reaction, giving you the largest punish window in the game. This is especially effective if you are suspicious that he is baiting you. So, unless you are both repeatedly spamming heavies/easily read dodging or jumping attacks with long startup and refusing to feint, there isn't really a situation where he can "spam" crushing counterstrikes.

Alregard
08-16-2017, 03:27 AM
I have mixed feelings here. Played him around 5 hours. Impressed that the kick guarantees a heavy. Though I didnt know the parry punishers, I still think:

- His damage is incredibly low! He needs a buff for all his heavys!
- Dodge forward attack should be feintable: Every competent player can parry that pretty easily still (or deflect)
- His counterstrike is made nearly obsolete (agiainst light attacks) because he is SLUGGISH! I would say I have not too bad reactions, but somehow it seems he wont throw out his light attack but rather blocks even though I gave it the input. Thats a real downer there... For example, Wardens counter strike works just fine and I score it everytime i forsee the enemy top light attack, unlike Highlanders...
Seems like he has some sort of unnecessary delay. Cant understand why I can parry, but cant counterstrike. This is my most urgent problem with him!
- Minionclearing: Chains are medicore for it, Zone pretty good, but what the hell his sprint attack is pure ****. Two big swings, killing two minions?!? Need a big buff there as well.
- I would suggest some nerfs as well just after playing him for 5 hours, so dont take me too serious there: OF kick should not guarantee a heavy (only the grab) and OF lights are a tad too fast. But he really needs a damage buff for all of his heavys...
- As most guys here already said, his GB range sucks...

Cant remember anything else of the top of my head. He has big problems vs fast attacks. His life would be much easier if he has a proper reaction with his light attacks, I am sure there must be a attack delay!

Rahnzan
08-16-2017, 03:39 AM
People keep talking about offensive stance mix-ups. What the hell are you people talking about?

I can do an unchainable heavy, an unchainable light, a kick, or a weird throw that all cost most of my stamina. Woopdie-do the kick cancels into caber. "Hey kids, want to make a grab cost 75% of your stamina for no benefit?" The proper response to the kick is striking so congratulations on bombing yourself when your cancel eats their response.
The heavy cancel into light isnt even worth it because you can just do the light, save some stamina and avoid a parry because they didnt have time to watch it happen.

You leave superior block lights on defensive alone. What the hell good is a reflex move I have to engage first to use?! I dont sit in offense all day telegraphing my intentions.

Alustar.
08-16-2017, 03:45 AM
I don't think he needs anything but something to do after parry. But other than that image is working fine.
Counterstrike is deflect for tanks. It's a timing issue. Work on your timing individually for each classes lights. Some lights may be harder than others.
The unblockables don't need any damage buff. They are an at will unblockable with the greatest reach I've seen and it's not hard to cancel then. More damage mean giving them more incintive to be spammed.

Jasado
08-16-2017, 03:55 AM
I don't think he needs anything but something to do after parry. But other than that image is working fine.
Counterstrike is deflect for tanks. It's a timing issue. Work on your timing individually for each classes lights. Some lights may be harder than others.
The unblockables don't need any damage buff. They are an at will unblockable with the greatest reach I've seen and it's not hard to cancel then. More damage mean giving them more incintive to be spammed.
Spamming heavies get you parried and they do less damage than defensive stance heavies to begin with. You simply have a very rose tinted view, because hard data on the movesets and capabilities both show he is incredibly in need of help before people simply adapt to his very few saving graces that also have clear counters. Many very good players have gone indepth about it.

TheUberDome
08-16-2017, 03:56 AM
Highlanders defensive mode doesn't feel defensive at all, why even give him the ability to parry if he can do barely anything to punish them. As for the "offensive" mode. 5 lights from that mode and you're out of stam, all they need to do is throw a light at you as soon as you go into that mode and you get damaged without dealing anything. He honestly feels so half arsed. As for ways of improvements, he should have hyper armour on the offensive mode similar to shugoki. That way you're not always at a disadvantage when trying to play offensively. As for the hyper armour on his heavy attacks, it starts way too late into the attack to be of any use.

Jasado
08-16-2017, 03:57 AM
Highlanders defensive mode doesn't feel defensive at all, why even give him the ability to parry if he can do barely anything to punish them. As for the "offensive" mode. 5 lights from that mode and you're out of stam, all they need to do is throw a light at you as soon as you go into that mode and you get damaged without dealing anything. He honestly feels so half arsed. As for ways of improvements, he should have hyper armour on the offensive mode similar to shugoki. That way you're not always at a disadvantage when trying to play offensively. As for the hyper armour on his heavy attacks, it starts way too late into the attack to be of any use.
700ms in, to a 1000ms attack. 85% of movesets beat it on reaction.

Jasado
08-16-2017, 04:00 AM
His zone attack is a joke. It works in 0 percent of situations you need it in. It has to have super armor, stagger, or be faster. At least 2 of these 3 things to be anything other the hidden move to combo out of a grab or light parry for 1 hit.

His Celtic Curse is already being read, unless the initial attack is unblockable to force a reaction, mixups don't mean anything.

Rahnzan
08-16-2017, 04:01 AM
He's got a lot of options to blow stamina out his kilt for no gain. Caber is useless: aside from a parry (which is wonky) youve got to throw out an attack, hold heavy, wait a second, and then hope your opponent isnt pressing a single button. All for the benefit of throwing him on the ground with just enough stamina to top heavy and gas yourself. But you cant even use the regular top heavy to punish them, you have to use the UB which costs even more stamina for less damage or risk not even swinging your sword as you try to get timing down - or rapid tapping R2 hoping it doesnt register as the UB.

You could heavy into OS and raw caber but thatll never hit and again, you dont have enough damage to make the huge sum of stamina worth it.

Ive only been able to get by in my skill bracket by ignoring offense entirely. And whats the heavy even for? I cant open with it, I cant interrupt with it because OS takes forever to activate. The only good use is external spam on someone busy. Anyone with a shield is waiting to parry it and you cant feint it so youre basically aski g to get punished.

bmason1000
08-16-2017, 04:48 AM
Is his guard break range shorter than berserker?

mrmistark
08-16-2017, 06:07 AM
Well, my thoughts as an Xbox player after I played him for about 4 hours today.

Here are my fixes to make him make sense and make him just overall more usable:

Stance unspecific: deal overall more damage. Decrease the speed on heavy attacks. Give his zone attack uninterrupt and his rush attack a larger area of attack.

Defensive stance is overall fine as is with just a couple minor tweaks: this stance compared to offensive stance should deal less damage of the two. Celtic curse and its soft feint should be able to be hard feinted. Gb should have more reach and give him the same option as every other character for parry punish and get rid of crushing counter strike for this stance.

Offensive stance: this stance should not be able to parry, but should be the mode to crushing counter strike as it would help keep him in this mode. This stance, as an offensive stance, should deal more damage. Lights should have slightly more range, his heavy ub should cost a little more stamina though his lights, throw and kick should cost a little less.

My biggest gripe in all honesty:
GETTING HIT BY A TEAMATE SHOULD NOT FORCE YOU OUT OF THIS MODE! Happened every time. Working someone 1v1 when a random teammate comes in, doesn't even hit enemy, just hits me and ruins my throw into ub heavy for the kill.

kweassa1
08-16-2017, 06:15 AM
People keep talking about offensive stance mix-ups. What the hell are you people talking about?

I can do an unchainable heavy, an unchainable light, a kick, or a weird throw that all cost most of my stamina. Woopdie-do the kick cancels into caber. "Hey kids, want to make a grab cost 75% of your stamina for no benefit?" The proper response to the kick is striking so congratulations on bombing yourself when your cancel eats their response.
The heavy cancel into light isnt even worth it because you can just do the light, save some stamina and avoid a parry because they didnt have time to watch it happen.

You leave superior block lights on defensive alone. What the hell good is a reflex move I have to engage first to use?! I dont sit in offense all day telegraphing my intentions.

How does any Kensei use feint mix-ups?

For example:


● incoming heavy attack → counter with supblock light → hold heavy button down = goes into OF during your opponent's hit recovery

From that point you have a slight frame advantage which allows you to:

(a) use a UB heavy if opponent remains passive
(b) use the OF light to stop-hit opponent if he attacks
(c) cancel OF into a GB if the opponent dodges

The mix-up potential the HL has is pretty similar to the situation the Kensei is in when he gets out his unblockable.

kweassa1
08-16-2017, 06:18 AM
Is his guard break range shorter than berserker?

It's just about a particular situation with heavy parries, in which for some reason , bmason, and my guess is its a bug or a glitch of a sort, nothing more. My guess is they'd probably address it with one of those mandatory hotfix patches that usually comes after a big update.

mrmistark
08-16-2017, 06:19 AM
Also for everyone saying he is "parry fodder" it's actually one of the best parts about him. Everyone always guard breaks after a parry. It's muscle memory. I learned today it's more benificial to Let them parry it if they aren't valk or nobushi cause every other character will wiff giving you a free hit. I know it's a guaranteed light, I never got countered on a normal heavy when I threw it out though (seemed free but cannot confirm)

mrmistark
08-16-2017, 06:35 AM
I will say his mix up potential is very promising. I think people are forgetting you can come out of Offensive stance by pressing the hard feint. It's perfect honestly cause you can ub heavy into hard feint into gb. Another thing, his DEFENSIVE stance is just that, defensive. Quit throwing out Celtic curses all Willy nilly like a bunch of scrubs and use its hyper armor. Wait for them to come in, let it fly, get the hit into auto offensive stance. I've had a lot of success with this chain: incoming attack startup -> Celtic curse->soft feint into side heavy for trade holding heavy button-> release quickly for a very quick ub heavy. Regenerate a bit of stam as they regroup themselves -> ub heavy startup -> soft feint into throw->ub heavy-> ub heavy startup-> hard feint back into defense stance-> gb-> light attack

I only use the kick when I see them starting up a slower attack as it's too punishable. His lights in offensive use too much stamina and are used only when the opponent light spams his ub moves.

mrmistark
08-16-2017, 06:39 AM
Also it'd be great if his recovery from an ub heavy in offensive stance didn't take so long. Seems like it takes a full 3 seconds just to start up another one or is that just me?

D4F0R
08-16-2017, 12:08 PM
How to balance highlander and make him on par with every other character, give him side heavy on gb, Gb on heavy parries.. actually make him able to gb on heavy parry. top heavy on light parry.. thats ALL. 4 things.

Either that or take them away from everyone, he isn't strong enough for that to be taken away

Stahlrusse
08-16-2017, 12:47 PM
You have to buff the Highlanders Damage on Heavies.

I just played my raider and not only are his movements and heavy attacks faster, they also deal more damage. The Raider is pretty fast compared to the Highlander and murders him easily on these aspects.

Highlander in general feels very clumsy, which would not be a disadvantage if his damage would be higher than it is now.

IDubbaDownI
08-16-2017, 01:24 PM
** Noticed a bug ***
The hero moveset indicates that Celtic Crush can initiate chains. This works fine for the Light, Heavy chain or the Heavy Heavy chain. Does not work for the Light Light Heavy chain.
In other words. After you use Celtic Crush, you can not chain into a light attack.


I disagree with switching the offensive and defensive lights.

As it is right now, I like the idea of offensive stance being this brief stance of aggression. I seem to be most effective when I quick transition into it and play a couple mind games with my opponent and then back to defense.

With quick lights, you can disrupt opponents moving in or anticipating your heavy. The mind games with the cancels from heavy to light, heavy to kick and many more are awesome.

Loving this character

dragon7jdc
08-16-2017, 02:22 PM
Greetings Warriors,

With the start of Season 3, we know many players are excited to see and use Highlander on the battlefield. In anticipation of your feedback, we ask that you leave your thoughts regarding balance for the Highlander here. This will allow us to better organize your initial feedback regarding the hero.

If you’d like to leave feedback regarding the Gladiator, you can find the feedback thread for that here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1725462-Season-3-Gladiator-Feedback-Forums).

Thanks and enjoy the battlefields!

feedback: i thought all projectiles were reduced to 50 damage. why highlander deals 80 ?
i like the hero and will try him once he is unlocked.

Nickeloneon
08-16-2017, 03:16 PM
I love the Highlander, he is so fun to play. I do think he needs a bit more damage output for how slow he is. Also not even getting a guaranteed defensive light on heavy parries feels bad.

Alba_Gu-Brath
08-16-2017, 05:49 PM
After playing him for a few hours, most of which was wrought with frustration and disappointment, i finally started to get a handle on him. Still tough to play. I think once i learned you can chain the UB heavies in OS that made a difference. The other big thing is i had to isolate my mentality depending on the form i was in. Since we are all familiar with with playing a simultaneous offensive/defensive game, i had to only concentrate on defense/evasion when in DS in order to get the distance between me and the enemy. And just worry about putting them on the ground and following up with his when in OS. Once there was distance between us that gave me time to switch into OS or use Celtic Curse to initiate. If i went into OS positioning of the enemy so i could effectively kick - UB -UB-UB, or kick - caber toss -UB-UB-UB. Once the kick got off the follow up moves were devastating and usually dropped their health damn near by 3/4. The key i realized is that up close highlander is a sitting duck due to the long charge up of his offensive stance and slow swings. with a little bit of distance, not too much though, he was much more effective at getting in his disables and following up with the damage

tosxmasterr
08-16-2017, 06:41 PM
hmmm I seldom use the light parry into OS but if the heavy is assured i might have to start. Thanks for the info

tosxmasterr
08-16-2017, 06:56 PM
Highlander cannot guarantee any directional heavy from a grab. That is f**ked up.

Highlander cannot grab from a parry, so he can't even take advantage of a grab to shove someone into a wall since he can't heavy from a grab. That is f**ked up.

If you parry into offensive stance, the kick is not guaranteed, so you have to 50/50 with a Caber Toss (which doesn't have steamlined timings) and hope they dodge into it, just to land an Offensive Stance heavy. Which does less damage than a DEFENSIVE stance heavy overhead. That is f**ked up.

Highlander's Stamina costs need to be reduced. These costs are nuts. Especially in offensive stance. Since I have to cancel into it out of a parry, then do a minimum of 3 moves just to hope I confirm some damage, I am at severe risk of being OOS for playing BETTER? What?

This character has no double light specials, so why are there so many situations you only allow a light attack confirmation?

Also, on the subject of lights, the previous feedback from Kweassa and that other guy are on point. Swapping the Offensive and Defensive stance Light Attack properties makes a lot more sense in execution. Frankly, even if you don't, the range of offensive stance lights are way too short - even after a parry, especially on slanted ground, I can't even land an Offensive LIGHT attack because it won't reach or the attack goes through their body and doesn't hit. That and the huge stamina costs, I can't take advantage of the properties the light attack gives because I risk OOS or can't finish the combo because of stamina.

Zone attack needs super armor, the very people you need it against are the ones most able to interrupt it with faster attacks. If you gave it hard stagger on normal block that would be nice, you say yourself it's one of the heaviest weapon's in combat history, the claymore. Currently it's free parry fodder after the first swing, heavy stagger on normal block would reduce this versus multiple people and make considering the second or third swings being canceled or not for chip damage a valid choice rather than suicide.

Offensive Stance overhead should be a premiere killing attack, like berzerker's, kensei's, and raider's combo zone. It does less damage than a defensive stance overhead. Please fix that. When I land a kick I should drop a dome cleaving meaty overhead claymore chop both players feel. Currently it's just a whack.

Really though, overall I have to say props. I love this character's intended design. It just needs some polish to work effectively in the game. Highlander is very cool, but some things definitely seem off or completely overlooked. Please investigate.


Couldnt agree more ma dude. He's ok in a gankfest (but who isnt) but against high level players...openers dont connect and i cant flow into OS without getting interrupted, Hes a timing character and that wont work in this game.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
08-16-2017, 08:48 PM
I LUV how getting parried by a Centurion on a spinning side heavy cancelled from the dashed top heavy effectively ends the match because you're instantly exhausted and WAAAAAAAAAYYYY to slow to ever escape a Centurion's stamina draining spam. F**KING nerf the F**KER

iAlwaysL0se
08-16-2017, 09:49 PM
I managed to get the Highlander very close to rep 1 yesterday. I used him across all game modes and I must say, DAMN is he fun to use! I feel like he is off to a decent start and definitely has a higher fun factor to play as. The kits between him and Gladiator feel like what we should have gotten in all heros from the start which is a lot of options but I digress.
Here's what I found.

4v4 modes
Highlander can excel in 4v4 modes because of his UB chains and ability to deal decent damage and interrupt people with kicks and throws and his range is solid. However, him being double teamed by two assassins is extremely difficult to stay alive because 1. his guard changed speed is fairly slow 2. his light attacks are like a standard hero's heavys and are easily dodged or parried. 3 his heavy's feel even slower than shugoki 4. parry's against multiple opponents doesnt yield any rewards really other than a bit of distancing. 5. his zone attack for getting ganked is HILARIOUS, it goes in whatever direction he feels like swinging but i do like that it can be canceled after the first and second swing. 6. health pool seems pretty low 7. he's just not fast enough to defend and reapply pressure back. 8. Stamina pool feels a bit low too, parry into Offensive stance to UB chain and stamina is gone after two swings and if one of them is parried you are OOS.

Duel/ Brawl modes
Highlanders performance in these modes definitely depends on your skill/ knowledge with him. His mix ups are pretty dope but after an opponent fights you a few times they can easily dodge his kicks, grabs, and nearly any attack except the dashing heavy mix up usually catches a lot of people off guard. You almost have to revert to turteling utilizing his crushing counters (Which are ****ing awesome!) while throwing in mix ups to bait out attacks. In these modes he feels like a drag to play especially against anyone who can spam light attacks and have crazy range in their guard breaks (PK, Warden, and kensei to name some). You dont get much in terms of a parry punish unless you're near a wall and all you really get is a light off a wall hit or a throw into the UB mix up if you're lucky. It feels as though he has no parry game and using GB's with him is also useless because of his attack speed. You'll GB someone, throw out a light that takes a millennia to come out, get it blocked and then get GB'd yourself or get parried/ deflected. It's sad but the easiest wins for me was capitalizing off of the crushing counters and UB mix ups, essentially playing turtle which is sad.

Overall

I feel his lights need to be sped up a bit more ( I know the Claymore is MASSIVE and you still feel that weight in him but damn son!)
The UB Top Heavy should do serious damage like zerkers because the sheer fact it does less damage than defensive stance Heavy is just silly. It's an UB being thrown down unto his enemies with the rage and power of the celtic gods! We should feel and see that damage.
The active state for the UI( uninterruptible stance) Stance needs to happen sooner. I cant count how many times I would try to trade with the UI Heavys and still get interrupted because my attacker is faster and the hyper armor didnt activate on time. He should not be a character built on timing for trades when he's so slow.
His health pool seems too low to be trading hits with characters. Especially those who also have hyper armor like a Zerker or TurtleLord I mean Warlord. A real good Zerker can put some pain on you when trying to trade.
Zone attack needs to be more controllable and needs something like hyper armor or added stagger on hit/ block, in its current state it doesnt always go the direction you want it to and it is extremely easy to counter.
Offensive stance lights needs some work. The range is too short.
He needs some parry options and a more usable guard break with some range, a light attack off of a parry at least considering his speed. Overall though I gotta give it to you guys this time, you made some extremely intriguing characters that don't seem like cancer this time and have been a blast to play as and fight against.. I hope i got my points off clearly, runing onf three hours of sleep here.

KilluminatiSH
08-16-2017, 09:59 PM
I really love the design and his intended purpose, but he is too flawed. I've almost gotten him to rep 2 and these are a few of my points.

1. He is TOO SLOW, it's quite easy to make kills with him against average players, but against ones that have learned to play against him? Too difficult. Every attack he throws, including lights, can be guard broken. I've seen assassins stick to my *** waiting for me to heavy to gb, or to switch to my offensive stance so they can barrage.
2. His super armor triggers too late, his Celtics attacks can be interrupted.
3. Against a decent Lawbringer, Conq of Warlord, he is too crippled. Lawbringer just needs to block once and he interrupts your entire combo, and sticks to you. He is too heavy to dodge pushes, headbutts and shield bashes. It's not impossible, but success rate is at about 10% due to his ridiculous recovery times.
4. Stamina cost. Stamina cost. Stamina cost. His offensive stance is necessary to open up defensive players, who do nothing but wait, but what's the point in using it if after 2-3 lights your stamina is gone? And the damage? Barely 1.5 bars
5. Guard break. His guard break does nothing for him. Not even a light attack connects sometimes, and that's even if you get a guard break. Parries do absolutely nothing for a HL, it makes no sense. I see T-rex arms HL memes coming up.
6*. If I swing that giant sword 3 times I'll only take out 3 minions, and if an Orochi zones he wipes out half a minion army. What's up with that?

Overall, I love the design, the character, the moves and look, but as it stands once people get to know how he works, he'll be useless. Please give him the necessary buffs, and please do not make us wait 4 months for it.

Vakris_One
08-16-2017, 11:39 PM
Well I must say the Highlandsr is a bit underwhelming to fight against. He is the easiest character to parry that I have met - his attacks are incredibly slow and telegraphed. This poor chap probably wouldn't even find respite in Realistic mode.

He cannot get any kind of heavy from a grab, which makes him the only character in the game to not get a free heavy from a grab and he doesn't have anything that makes up for this handicap. The poor guy swings twice and half his stamina is gone. I actually let him land the first swing (or dodge it if it is the offensive stance unblockable) and parry the second for maximum stamina depletion and he's into OOS in 2-3 moves tops.

His only real way of dealing damage is to turtle up and fish for punishes but he gets next to nothing from a parry. His only real use is in a 4v4 gank squad where he can swing his unblockables with relative immunity. And his health pool is far too small to trade hits with anything but a squishy assassin.

I feel as if his catchphrase should be, "Buff Ma Class". He needs either a damage boost to his hits or a Shugoki-esque health pool. I feel that Highlander is meant to be a glass cannon rather than a tank but then he should be doing way more damage on any hits he can score.

WARRIOR_238
08-17-2017, 12:35 AM
Not sure this has been mentioned but AWESOME JOB WITH DETAIL!!! The character looks awesome!!!

For sure need improvements on speed and counter guard break. 1v1 this character is terrible but playing dominion is awesome. Not sure on skirmish due to no one playing that anymore.

Knight_Raime
08-17-2017, 02:19 AM
As with my other feedback in the other sticky thread keep in mind most of my time is against my sparring partner and against high level bots. I will create a seperate thread holding my complete thoughts with both heros once I get them up through rep one and a little past that.

So here is the deal. Highlander plays differently compared to everyone else in the cast. For the most part for honor is a reactionary game. There are a few things you need to guess or read for certain match ups or mix ups. But for the most part you see something and react accordingly. Highlander is different. You have little reactionary tools. Instead you have to READ your opponent right. this means you need to know your opponent is going to say...dodge attack. before he does it in order to properly deal with it.

Highlanders problems withholding I believe this is the main reason why so many people are struggling to get anything done with him. Also unlike the gladiator I don't believe he's really designed for 1v1. But that's just me.

With that said and done though I would say as the game currently as is he doesn't fit well. This is because of how awkward his parry punishes are in relation to the rest of the cast. And how much he has to give out (health/stamina) wise in order to get comparable results for damage/pressure. So what should we do as a quick fix?

Well guard break needs to be sorted for him. either he gets it off of most parries. Or he gets it off of none. It being inconsistent as is (regardless of how I feel on the reward VS parries) isn't acceptable and should be addressed asap.

From there we need to decide what his primary method of getting in should be. Trading. Or mix ups. If trading he needs a much bigger health pool. close to warlord. But not at warlord. If he's going to be mainly about mix ups his stamina pool either needs an increase or his moves need to cost less stamina. or perhaps a small mix of both.

Once the defensive meta changes drop in (OOS and parry and gb changes) we can revisit him with every other character and see if these quick fixes should stay (aside from the GB fix ofc) or if they should be reverted. I'm only suggesting these quick fixes as I 100% believe those changes will not drop till season 4. that's months away. it would be unacceptable to leave him as is for that long.

kweassa1
08-17-2017, 02:38 AM
I'm not too sure of brushing him off as "underwhelming" at all. The only reason people might think this way is because in comparison, the Gladiator's is relative much more "cheap" and "easymode". Of course, I wouldn't say the HL is a very strong or OP class, but so far the potential I see in it is a solid, well-balanced mid to upper-mid tier -- but only when used to max potential. It's the type that rewards sophisticated mind-games and a very sturdy, "to-the-basics" management. As many people have mentioned, you really need to get the hang of the use of OS and DS with the HL.


One of the biggest misconceptions people have commented, IMO, is when they say "HL is too easy to block, counter, or parry".

This is basically what happens when someone tries to go all offensive with DF-based skills. -- clearly, DF mode skills are literally for "defensive" use. So swinging big, telegraphed heavies or lights that have innate counterattack motion attached in front of the actual swinging clearly doesn't cut it too well.

I mention this again, but the basic mentality of the HL, IMO, is that he's a Lawbringer + Kensei. When in defense, you need to be patient like a Lawbringer. After successful defense or counters, and gaining the initiative, it's at that moment you need to switch into Kensei mode by going into OF and that's when you're really prepped to use attacks. So, of course it's easy to block, parry, counter HL when he swings his DF based skills -- that's no different from a Lawbringer just swinging his heavies and lights in straight-up combos without setting the opponent up other skills or mind-games.


Another misconception I find is that because guaranteed attacks from parry are weak, that people think even being defensive doesn't pay off/

But frankly speaking, IMO, the HL really doesn't need parries at all -- his DF lights are his parries. The most recent version of FHDV lists the DF supblock light attack damage as 30 -- which, if it is true, it's certainly not spectacularly high, but it's not too low either -- it's about an average side heavy damage with other classes.

So instead of parrying heavies -- GB -- and then do damage, with the HL you simply cut out the GB part and directly counter it with damage, and at the same time go into OF... from where you go into mix-ups. Against light attacks, you can certainly try to to use your lights against those as well, but if it proves to be too difficult, a conventional light parry into a guaranteed OF heavy is also not too shabby.


IMO once people get the hang of this class, and then set out to develop their variety of combat patterns associated with OF mode feints and cancels, things will look a lot different.

Alustar.
08-17-2017, 03:43 AM
I have to agree with Kweassa on pretty much everything. I find he's great against pretty much anyone if you know how to use his kit. But that goes for every character on the roster. Managing your stamina and stances along with varying your mix ups is going to be the separates the higher skilled players from the rest.

Yes he is slow, but he also has superior reach and access to some of the most devastating combos I'd cycled well. It's a dance, and I love it.

kweassa1
08-17-2017, 04:22 AM
I have to agree with Kweassa on pretty much everything. I find he's great against pretty much anyone if you know how to use his kit. But that goes for every character on the roster. Managing your stamina and stances along with varying your mix ups is going to be the separates the higher skilled players from the rest.

Yes he is slow, but he also has superior reach and access to some of the most devastating combos I'd cycled well. It's a dance, and I love it.

Well... for what it's worth, it's certainly a hecukva lot more interesting and fun to play the HL than the GL...

The GL... literally, has 0 "depth"... a "Peacekeeper easymode" is what I call it.

A real Peacekeeper could do its nimble "dancing around the opponent" bit, but the player still needs some considerable experience and skill since it's difficult to open them up -- a drawback all assassins share as a price to their mobility. The GL?? Do the same dodge-mashing, but also enjoy the full benefits of unblockables spammed during every part of your movment... spam in when dashing, spam it when dodging left, spam it when dodging right, spam it after an attack, just spam it anyway... :rolleyes:


Like, "0 depth". There's nothing to really "study" or "learn" with the GL. It's just one of those classes that force reflex-based defenses. The same sort as vortex=shi*. If anything's disappointing, the basic design of the GL IMO is just pure laziness.

Alustar.
08-17-2017, 04:31 AM
Well... for what it's worth, it's certainly a hecukva lot more interesting and fun to play the HL than the GL...

The GL... literally, has 0 "depth"... a "Peacekeeper easymode" is what I call it.

A real Peacekeeper could do its nimble "dancing around the opponent" bit, but the player still needs some considerable experience and skill since it's difficult to open them up -- a drawback all assassins share as a price to their mobility. The GL?? Do the same dodge-mashing, but also enjoy the full benefits of unblockables spammed during every part of your movment... spam in when dashing, spam it when dodging left, spam it when dodging right, spam it after an attack, just spam it anyway... :rolleyes:


Like, "0 depth". There's nothing to really "study" or "learn" with the GL. It's just one of those classes that force reflex-based defenses. The same sort as vortex=shi*. If anything's disappointing, the basic design of the GL IMO is just pure laziness.

Yeah as a PK main since launch I actually feel kind of jipped in that regard. It makes me really hope for a rework of the original roster after the final season cause this is pretty bad.
On the flip side to that I now know what it's like to go against a PK and be a slow *** slab of meat, its rough, so honestly I'm glad I ran PK to rep 15

SwellChemosabe
08-17-2017, 06:31 AM
In my experience so far, having only been able to get the Highlander up to lvl 10 with the time I had to play, I gotta say it was pretty ****ing impressive. He seemed really well balanced. He had super armor on heavy attacks which was nice considering his attack are slow as **** and highly telegraphed, but if mixed up right could be devastating. His counter attack was a nice alternative to parrying, much easier to do (at least in my opinion) and much more rewarding. Parrying only ever allowed me to land light attacks, never a heavy. His offensive form was absolutely bewildering and utterly confusing at first but now I see it as a really nice way to mix things up and put your opponent on edge. You can really put pressure on your opponent with those unblockable heavies and uninterruptible lights, not to mention that caber toss and kick (immensely useful I think). Overall, I'd say Ubi did a great ****ing job designing this character and I plan on maining highlander for the majority of season 3 (see if I can't get him to rep 10 before anything else)

Draghmar
08-17-2017, 07:49 AM
I don't know why people say he is slow. From what I see his speed is at the same level as other classes. The only thing that is really slow about him is his movement speed which is considerably slower then everything I've seen so far - it's hilarious when minions run faster then me.

kweassa1
08-17-2017, 08:38 AM
I don't know why people say he is slow. From what I see his speed is at the same level as other classes. The only thing that is really slow about him is his movement speed which is considerably slower then everything I've seen so far - it's hilarious when minions run faster then me.

It's generally the perception, IMO. All of his moves are very -- how do you say... -- "honest and straightforward" with very tell-tale motion.... like, if when he attacks someone in DF, he makes an "I'm gonna hit you in this direction" statement by holding his massive sized weapon in a great big swing... so even if its not THAT slow, it certainly feels like it. And more easily telegraphed, too.

So what happens is, since his attacks have such clear and tell-tale visual queues, it does seem to make it a bit easier to counter with parries and stuff... so if you're inexperienced with the HL and make the mistake of trying to use DF skills to attack someone, it gets parried a lot... so this sort of reinforces the feeling of being slow.

Knight_Raime
08-17-2017, 10:27 AM
It's generally the perception, IMO. All of his moves are very -- how do you say... -- "honest and straightforward" with very tell-tale motion.... like, if when he attacks someone in DF, he makes an "I'm gonna hit you in this direction" statement by holding his massive sized weapon in a great big swing... so even if its not THAT slow, it certainly feels like it. And more easily telegraphed, too.

So what happens is, since his attacks have such clear and tell-tale visual queues, it does seem to make it a bit easier to counter with parries and stuff... so if you're inexperienced with the HL and make the mistake of trying to use DF skills to attack someone, it gets parried a lot... so this sort of reinforces the feeling of being slow.

TBH my only problem with him besides his wonky GB's is that he really doesn't have an option against a very patient turtle.
celtic curse cancel isn't going to get him in. the kick even kick cancel into cabers is dodgeable by pretty much anyone. and his UB's are easy parry bait.

He entirely relies on the turtle to do something. At least from what i've dealt with. crushing counter on him is hilariously easy compared to warden. So I usually get in with that. but if the person never attacks me I can't do much.

Brucey_B
08-17-2017, 10:51 AM
The superior block trait on light @ Defense form, and the uninterrupted light attack @ Offense form actually needs to be switched.


The current problem is that the Offense form is fairly limited due to lack of defense.. and while I understand that conceptually Offense form is offense, and Defense form is defense, in terms of gameplay people become way too sparing of Offense form and only use it at very distinct, certain parts of the fight -- and would generally rely on Defense form like 80%~90% of the time.

Therefore, switch the light traits out.


(1) At defense form, attacks are limited but still some amount of pressuring the opponent may be used with lights that aren't interrupted by block (a la Shugoki) -- and this actually aids with defensive capability since opponents are more careful of possible mix-ups with lights when HL is in Defense form.

(2) At offense form, the short but fast lights should have superior block attack properties, so @ Offense form literally "offense is best defense" -- because blocks and parries are disabled, basically you pressure the opponent with threats of UB heavies, and then use your own light attacks to block out incoming enemy attacks so that Offense form can be used more aggressively... instead of just being a gimmicky combo finisher move

I actually think that makes a lot of sense! I don't have a problem at the moment with the build, but in my mind, I do actually think this would work a lot better!

Vault111General
08-17-2017, 01:16 PM
Hello.
I think that Highlander should be further strengthened. He is too weak and there is no catharsis due to a new experience.
It is incomplete due to the operability of using attack and defense properly. I think that each should have sharper performance.

Request for improvement

· Increase dash speed or increase physical strength
· Reduce overall stamina consumption
· Change the power of counter attack when blocking to 35
· Change the power of OF's light attack to 15
· Increase the speed of DF's heavy attack
· Extend range of guard break
· Increase speed of range attack and improve direction. Make the same performance as a range attack of a Nobushi and ignore parry

Herbstlicht
08-17-2017, 01:37 PM
Reputation 2 on my Highlander - almost at least.
Positive:
Love the concept, the big weapon, the weight etc. Congratulations on this, you really did deliver a bad *** looking guy.

Negative:
He looks so strong, but he is not. I mean I play Samurai Heros mainly (Kensei, Nobushi, Orochi), so I am used to the underdogs. But now, at least to me, it feels like I got a new hero to play with that does not only feel very weak, but that does play rather complicated without giving off some benefits for it. So there is some really clumsiness to its gameplay. It's in those guardbreaks you do not get, in those punishes - you do not get, in those super armor heavys that still don't work because its not enough time with super armor. And then there is this: oh, another highlander! Go for this guy, get your parries, he is easier to kill then most of the traditional roster.
Then, something not yet mentioned:
Range! It is soo weird. Some moves have decent range. Some have very bad one. It feels so very inconsistent. Your celtic curse sometimes has like what feels as 10 meters. Then, even your kick into sabre toss simple gets negated with dodging backwards. So not even some 50/50 for high stamina cost. It all adds to his clumsiness.

Draghmar
08-17-2017, 01:47 PM
Like someone said somewhere (kweassa1?) his moveset looks like created for changes in defensive meta and if that's true then it's hard to make an opinion on his kit. That being said:


· Increase dash speed or increase physical strength
· Reduce overall stamina consumption
· Change the power of counter attack when blocking to 35
· Change the power of OF's light attack to 15
· Increase the speed of DF's heavy attack
· Extend range of guard break
· Increase speed of range attack and improve direction. Make the same performance as a range attack of a Nobushi and ignore parry
- not sure if there's reason for that, I must play a little bit more to make any judgment but at the moment I don't feel it is needed
- stop spamming and you won't have problem with stamina ;), but seriously this was one of the first thing I like about him - you actually have to manage your stamina and think before attack
- it's already hitting hard and it's quite easy to perform it
- that's something I'd like to test first. I see light OF as a something situational - you enter OF and see that you're close enough to make some light attacks
- with super armor? don't see any reason for that. Heavy attacks are not for fast perform but more for feinting or using them at the right moment
- I don't have problem with that - playing as Nobushi teaches that you shouldn't spam GB whenever there is window for that ;)
- I don't understand the last one - what do you mean as a range attack? Both in regards to HL and Nobushi.

I would think twice before committing to any buffs for any class because it's easy to fell into trap of making favorite class better just because it favorite. For example this is the reason I never wanted any spectacular buffs to the Nobushi (some small tweaks would be nice, like allowing HS between guard change ;)).

Edit: Seeing comment above I'd like to add one thing: remember that when you compare new class to the old you've been playing so much you must think how much time you've invested to the old one. I still remember when I started with Nobushi, that is labeled as Hard to learn and I struggle to understand all the moves, when to use them, how to use them. At first I had problem even with level1 bot (yeah, Raider :)) and when I first start with Valkyrie (lvl3) I though I'd never catch up with this speed. But I've learned what are limitations and things like that. I'm not saying here that HL is definitively good or bad. But it's labeled as a Hard for a reason. And in my opinion this reason is that you need invest time to check everything out.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
08-17-2017, 03:31 PM
Highlander cannot guarantee any directional heavy from a grab. That is f**ked up.

Highlander cannot grab from a parry, so he can't even take advantage of a grab to shove someone into a wall since he can't heavy from a grab. That is f**ked up.

If you parry into offensive stance, the kick is not guaranteed, so you have to 50/50 with a Caber Toss (which doesn't have steamlined timings) and hope they dodge into it, just to land an Offensive Stance heavy. Which does less damage than a DEFENSIVE stance heavy overhead. That is f**ked up.

Highlander's Stamina costs need to be reduced. These costs are nuts. Especially in offensive stance. Since I have to cancel into it out of a parry, then do a minimum of 3 moves just to hope I confirm some damage, I am at severe risk of being OOS for playing BETTER? What?

This character has no double light specials, so why are there so many situations you only allow a light attack confirmation?

Also, on the subject of lights, the previous feedback from Kweassa and that other guy are on point. Swapping the Offensive and Defensive stance Light Attack properties makes a lot more sense in execution. Frankly, even if you don't, the range of offensive stance lights are way too short - even after a parry, especially on slanted ground, I can't even land an Offensive LIGHT attack because it won't reach or the attack goes through their body and doesn't hit. That and the huge stamina costs, I can't take advantage of the properties the light attack gives because I risk OOS or can't finish the combo because of stamina.

Zone attack needs super armor, the very people you need it against are the ones most able to interrupt it with faster attacks. If you gave it hard stagger on normal block that would be nice, you say yourself it's one of the heaviest weapon's in combat history, the claymore. Currently it's free parry fodder after the first swing, heavy stagger on normal block would reduce this versus multiple people and make considering the second or third swings being canceled or not for chip damage a valid choice rather than suicide.

Offensive Stance overhead should be a premiere killing attack, like berzerker's, kensei's, and raider's combo zone. It does less damage than a defensive stance overhead. Please fix that. When I land a kick I should drop a dome cleaving meaty overhead claymore chop both players feel. Currently it's just a whack.

Really though, overall I have to say props. I love this character's intended design. It just needs some polish to work effectively in the game. Highlander is very cool, but some things definitely seem off or completely overlooked. Please investigate.

1. Neither can PK. She cant b/c her heavies with bleed would be overkill as would HL's defensive heavies.

2. The GB parry or lack there of would be fair if opponents couldn't also GB a parry on HL so i agree with you there but he can wall splat heavy opponents...or at least i consistently seem to be able to.

3. ummm balance? Though Centurion SOMEHOW hasn't been fix they are trying to learn from him especially with guaranteed unblockables, or at least i hope this was the case.

4. Kind of. The most amazing case of stamina drain I've seen was fainting Celtic Curse into its side variant, being parried by a Cent. and instantly being OOS with his parry follow up. In all other case i think his stamina is balanced. It is a claymore after all. You shouldnt be able to end players with one barrage of attacks the way Cent. can(not that Cent should), there should at least a small reprieve to contemplate on a mixup you (or I) F***ed up and how to alter it for a comeback.

5. There are many heroes that don't. LB, Berserker, Shug, (well not many but still). Again its a claymore mate.

6. ehh i guess. I use my lights and counter strikes to blend into offensive stance. They're slower than kensei's and easily parry-able. OS lights, well, use them to feint the heavy i suppose. The hero is built around heavies in the same way Cent was built around breaking the turtle meta. Little regard is given to HL's lights in the same little regard was given to balance with Centurion. (Can you taste the salt i have for Cent yet)

7. Stagger yes armor no. That's a lot of frames you got to wait for it to finish.

8. Considering the ease to land a kick, a Caber toss, or a Caber toss feinted from a kick feinted from a heavy i cant agree.

I do agree that offensive heavies dealing less damage than defensive ones is a bit dumb but for the purpose of balance it makes sense

mrmistark
08-17-2017, 05:08 PM
I keep saying this but I'll say it again just for reiteration PLEASE READ FULLY before replying and saying no it's not fair because he can't gb heavy after parry. We get it and we all know.

Highlander actually comes ON TOP compared to other characters in the rosyterIF YOU PLAY HIM CORRECTLY. Everyone seems to want to play close with highlander. STOP PLAYING CLOSE you have range for a reason!

Let me explain: highlander when heavy parrying doesn't get anything. When he gets a light parry you get a guaranteed heavy for him. He has a counter strike for 30 damage: about an average heavy attack and puts him on top in this situation. Now when you fight against highlander, IF HE IS PLAYING PROPERLY and using the range to his advantage, a heavy parry won't guarantee a gb either as you will wiff and only get about halfway to him and give him a gb in return: another plus for the highlander in this situation. If you get the light parry you get a free heavy, sometimes for short range you don't even get that, again keeping his range in mind and assuming he is using this to his advantage: again highlander comes out on top in this situation.

PLAY HIM AND USE HIS MAIN STRENGTH TO YOUR ADVANTAGE! I promise you will look at his "disadvantage when it comes to parrying" much differently. Getting that guaranteed 30 damage counterstrike puts him way ahead.

Rikuto01.tv
08-17-2017, 06:12 PM
I mean here's what I don't get. Large weapons are supposed to give characters extra safety when parried, right? Yet it seems to work in reverse with highlander. That's kinda inconsistent. Well with the new meta coming I guess its a temporary problem.

People here have covered a lot, so I'll just add this. There is some very, VERY unsatisfying hit detection vs minions. Weird thing to complain about, I know, but its absolutely true. There are too many instances where ill do a wide swing and hit like one minion when it looks like I should have hit five. Or hit none at all.

Seems wonky. Please to be fixing, many thanks.

Alustar.
08-17-2017, 06:39 PM
I can attest to his superior range game. The parry gives you more freedom to breath, especially against faster classes like Nob/PK/glad/orochi.
Use parry to force a distance game and keep your opponent from closing the gap quickly.

Vasher.
08-17-2017, 06:40 PM
Great feedback from reddit.

From Reddit User: philipzeplin


Highlander is super fun to play, no doubt. When he works, he works - he just rarely works. He feels different and has a nice new playstyle. But he's very bottom tier.
His second chain Light attack gives a free GB on block.
Highlander only gets a light attack or zone off a Guard Break (15 damage - only Valkyrie and Conq has light attacks that deal less damage).
Highlander can only get a first-attack-then-cancel-Zone attack off a Parry (or an Offensive Stance Light attack).
If Highlander pushes an Assassin class to the ground, they can get up and parry before any of his heavies can land.
If Highlander wallsplats you, he only gets 1 heavy.
His guard changes are too slow to use his Light attack counter (Crushing Counter) on reaction.
His light attack counter (Crushing Counter) does not work on Unblockable attacks.
His heavy attacks are 1000ms.
His second Light attack in chain, is the slowest in the game at a wopping 700ms (and guarantees a free GB on block).
His Super Armor takes 500ms to activate.
He is said to be a character that can trade hits, but has the same healthpoints as Kensei (5HP more than Peacekeeper).
His heavy attacks are the same speed as Raider, but deals 5 less damage (and he has 15 less HP than Raider).
Only 3 characters have a slower Zone Attack than Highlander (Raider, Shugoki, Lawbringer), and it deals 7 less damage than Nobushi zone.
Only Orochi has a Heavy attack that deals less damage than Highlanders unblockable Heavy (it is 100ms faster).
Only Kenseis and Shugokis Unblockables are slower (1200ms+), but also deal 15 more damage each.
Caber Toss doesn't go through Shugoki HA.
Offensive Stance stamina regen takes longer to start & dodging pauses stamina regen.
Source: apart from playing, these two.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/



https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/6u9mfw/kensei_got_a_new_bottomtier_buddy/

Rikuto01.tv
08-17-2017, 08:20 PM
Getting really tired of having everything parried by much faster centurions who can take 50-80% of my lifebar while I get next to nothing.

Knight_Raime
08-17-2017, 08:29 PM
Great feedback from reddit.

From Reddit User: philipzeplin


Highlander is super fun to play, no doubt. When he works, he works - he just rarely works. He feels different and has a nice new playstyle. But he's very bottom tier.
His second chain Light attack gives a free GB on block.
Highlander only gets a light attack or zone off a Guard Break (15 damage - only Valkyrie and Conq has light attacks that deal less damage).
Highlander can only get a first-attack-then-cancel-Zone attack off a Parry (or an Offensive Stance Light attack).
If Highlander pushes an Assassin class to the ground, they can get up and parry before any of his heavies can land.
If Highlander wallsplats you, he only gets 1 heavy.
His guard changes are too slow to use his Light attack counter (Crushing Counter) on reaction.
His light attack counter (Crushing Counter) does not work on Unblockable attacks.
His heavy attacks are 1000ms.
His second Light attack in chain, is the slowest in the game at a wopping 700ms (and guarantees a free GB on block).
His Super Armor takes 500ms to activate.
He is said to be a character that can trade hits, but has the same healthpoints as Kensei (5HP more than Peacekeeper).
His heavy attacks are the same speed as Raider, but deals 5 less damage (and he has 15 less HP than Raider).
Only 3 characters have a slower Zone Attack than Highlander (Raider, Shugoki, Lawbringer), and it deals 7 less damage than Nobushi zone.
Only Orochi has a Heavy attack that deals less damage than Highlanders unblockable Heavy (it is 100ms faster).
Only Kenseis and Shugokis Unblockables are slower (1200ms+), but also deal 15 more damage each.
Caber Toss doesn't go through Shugoki HA.
Offensive Stance stamina regen takes longer to start & dodging pauses stamina regen.
Source: apart from playing, these two.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/



https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/6u9mfw/kensei_got_a_new_bottomtier_buddy/

Only going to comment on some of this:
1) What he gets off of parry wildly varies on who he's parried and what he parried. if it's a light attack he can get a lot of things. If it's a heavy attack is when it varies quite a bit. So "only x off of parry" is a misleading statement.

2) why is only one heavy a negative? majority of heros when they splat only get one thing. the bigger punishes aside from a few select heros comes from OOS.

3) His guard change speed isn't preventing that. it's that the crushing counter frames do not start at the start of the attack. they start 200ms in. For the record warden can't switch guard on reaction to crushing counter either. and it would be stupidly broken for either to be able to do. If you're making proper reads you can crushing counter someone on highlander constantly. I've been doing it all day yesterday.

4) crushing counter has never worked on unblockables because it's considered a block. It doesn't need to counter them either. parrying an unblockable is massive stamina damage alone.

5) No unblockable or grab attack can go through goki's HA. they fixed that awhile ago. and for a good reason.

IMMA_MAILGEYMER
08-17-2017, 08:29 PM
I'm glad the majority of players is not complaining too much about the new characters. Highlander needs some adjustments to his gb range and dodge recovery, otherwise he will be the "new meta hero" without the new meta being applied for the rest of the season. Gladiator is a step in a direction to get rid of the reaction-based game, now all the others needs to be updated to match that playstyle.

nufrancis
08-18-2017, 04:12 AM
Been playing using him until I got Rep 1. Heres the pros and cons:

Pros:
1.LOVE HIMMM, definitely my new main. I like heroes with big sword.
2.Fun to use. Like Kweassea said "he has depth". This is what we "experienced players" need.
3.Great mix up potential, huge damage. I prefer this kind of trait. Thats why I also main Kensei and Nobs, Cent is set aside, because using him is like cheating, besides actually his damage is quite small. Again Cent haters rant, Sorry
4.Good for 4vs4 because of his UB attack in offensive stance.
5.Definitely designed for new meta, where GB is not guaranteed after parry. After new meta implemented, he can be top tier hero
6.Insane crushing counter from all sides. Need time to adjust our habit, because usually we press heavy to parry, but using HL we use light to replace parry.
7.Nice option of feats. His feats can be set up for survival or for offensive purpose. I tend to set to survival in dominion and offensive for elimination. For Survival: Body Count, Inspire, Second Wind, and Champions Aura. For Offensive: Fast recovery, Winners advantage, Fury, and Spear storm


Cons:
1.Slowww. Just a matter of time until players used to his moves and all of his attack can be parried easily. Right now, my progression with him are very good. Above 50% for all modes, but lets wait next week. I believe next week, players will be used to his movement and can read his attack easily.

2.Low stamina pool. Several times I got parried and OOS immediately. I think his stamina should be improved.

3.Light attack on offensive stance are not worth to use. Big stamina usage, because you actually feinting heavy to use this (or we can use this immediately without feinting, im not sure). Range is short, even shorter than Shinobis ligth (from my perception), damage is a joke, its a poking attack so its normal to have low damage.

4.Only one good opener if we want to go offensive. Yeah he has many UB attack, but all too slow and his UB grab and kick can be dodge easily The only one good opener is CELTIC MIX UPPPP. SPAM WARNING!! Honestly he is lucky to have this move. If not HL will be a broken heroes. This attack is fast, huge damage + hyper armor. Can be use for mind game.

5.His GB range is very shooorttt and the punish only light and Zone. This is unfair I think. Please give him one heavy punish and also why his GB could not grab fleeing enemies?? this is also unfair.

6.His Crushing Counter can be parried. Anyone experienced this?? I train with Shinobi BOT level 3 and my crushing counter was parried!!! hopefully this is not intended. Definitely will make new thread to discuss this.

7.Sometimes after you throw down your enemy using UB grab and follow with punish it can be parried. Mostly im successfull but, sometimes parried. I read in this thread only assasins class can do this. Is this intended?? not fair if intented. Even trying to grab the assasins already very difficult. HL deserve reward for this

Thats all guys, Will continue grinding with him today. Still have several things in mind to experiment

SirRegisKeg
08-18-2017, 06:01 AM
A great character fair and strategic. I love this character . Please..... Do Not Buff.

Highlander and Gladiator are the most balanced characters in this game. Everyone who understands this game please let them keep Highlander like this. He is perfect.

KilluminatiSH
08-18-2017, 07:47 AM
A great character fair and strategic. I love this character . Please..... Do Not Buff.

Highlander and Gladiator are the most balanced characters in this game. Everyone who understands this game please let them keep Highlander like this. He is perfect.

Please ignore the ignorant ones like these.

Since people started noticing Highlander's ridiculous movement speed every confrontation that I've had that resulted in my opponents hp being critical has ended up with them running away and me being able to do absolutely nothing.

Seriously, the moment ANYONE starts running, as a highlander you might as well sit down and give up, it's too ridiculously slow..

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 09:14 AM
well i don't want to complain about Balance

but how can people say the game is balanced

when there's classes like

Kensei
Nobushi
Orochi
they dont have mixup or opener in that matter

and the worst of the worst For Example Nobushi has no stamina basicaly and hidden stance consume tons of stamina and stops stamina regeneration while classes like Glad and highlander and centurion has almost infinite stamina they can keep on attacking

i don't see how people call this game balanced


i think this game is disastrous when it comes to balance , it favors dlc character - shinobi over orginal roster and by far

Warlord is a tier of his own so don't mind him being in the original roster

Draghmar
08-18-2017, 09:35 AM
[...]and the worst of the worst For Example Nobushi has no stamina basicaly and hidden stance consume tons of stamina and stops stamina regeneration while classes like Glad and highlander and centurion has almost infinite stamina they can keep on attacking
HS is costly as a balance to what it gives. I don't have problem with cost of HS at all - it's called stamina management. The problem with HS is that you can't invoke it between guard changes and that means you can be too late and eat damage. It would also interesting to test HS speeding attacks a little bit but I think it would end up OP.
Highlander has infinite stamina? A few swings and you're almost OOS. It's nowhere near the level of Cent.

MatlaenStrider
08-18-2017, 10:00 AM
When finding a good highlander player and playing said player for many of hours he did a couple of thing, such as "FAINTING". One of the problems that I see have encounter is the tracking on two attack. You should be able to teleport to someone if you faint downward attack to preform a side attack. Finally is the "grab" sometimes it will grab you as far as a warden grab unlocked. Besides that, the Highlanders kit works just fine. Not too overpowered and not too weak. Very strong in punishing people that are out of stamina and very strong at wall slapping their opponent. Weakness probably not being able to "unblock-able grab" someone in revenge.

Those are my 2 cents don't shoot the messenger just my honest thoughts.

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 10:55 AM
yeah hs is balanced

cause Nobushi has the highlander mixup ok lol =))

hs is probably the weakest tool , there's no reason for it to consume that much stamina and her light should be as fast as highlander light from offensive , and she needs higher stamina if she wants to move to the mid tier instead of trash tier

Kensei and Bushi are the weakest heroes in the game right now

brainfrog.345
08-18-2017, 11:07 AM
first off, i think the devs did a good job with highlander. he is pretty unique and fun to play. still, he needs some help (although not much):

1. more damage
highlander is all about reading your opponent and trading blows with him. In order to do so, you need to win trades. simple as that. i mean, just look at the size of that sword.

2. earlier start of hyper armour
again, in order to be able to win trades.

3. larger stamina pool
celtic curse into ub heavy cancel into cabertoss into ub heavy basically drains all your stamina, for landing one ub heavy.

4. hyper armour on caber toss/fomorian kick
these moves are so telegraphed that any class with fast attacks can poke you out of it on reaction. alternatively, the move could be made faster.

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 11:10 AM
first off, i think the devs did a good job with highlander. he is pretty unique and fun to play. still, he needs some help (although not much):

1. more damage
highlander is all about reading your opponent and trading blows with him. In order to do so, you need to win trades. simple as that. i mean, just look at the size of that sword.

2. earlier start of hyper armour
again, in order to be able to win trades.

3. larger stamina pool
celtic curse into ub heavy cancel into cabertoss into ub heavy basically drains all your stamina, for landing one ub heavy.

4. hyper armour on caber toss/fomorian kick
these moves are so telegraphed that any class with fast attacks can poke you out of it on reaction. alternatively, the move could be made faster.


first they need to have a heavy look at the Samurai faction before buffing or nerfing anyone else

the Samurai needs the most help and buff at the moment , they have no mixup and no opener

Vakris_One
08-18-2017, 11:19 AM
Please ignore the ignorant ones like these.

Since people started noticing Highlander's ridiculous movement speed every confrontation that I've had that resulted in my opponents hp being critical has ended up with them running away and me being able to do absolutely nothing.

Seriously, the moment ANYONE starts running, as a highlander you might as well sit down and give up, it's too ridiculously slow..
Forward dash plus heavy will sort out any runners. It has very good range and great tracking.

Draghmar
08-18-2017, 11:20 AM
yeah hs is balanced

cause Nobushi has the highlander mixup ok lol =))

hs is probably the weakest tool , there's no reason for it to consume that much stamina and her light should be as fast as highlander light from offensive , and she needs higher stamina if she wants to move to the mid tier instead of trash tier

Kensei and Bushi are the weakest heroes in the game right now
This is not the topic for Nobushi and HS.
No, Noushi doesn't have the kit of HL. That's the whole point of having different classes. ;)
HS is the only skill that can negate every move in game except for GB. It's chain startup and can be used to feint lights. I don't know how you use it (if at all) but I can use as a *part* of strategy and often successfully, especially against parry-lovers. You don't need to spam it in order for it to be useful. You need to use it when there's a need for using it. Sometimes for defense and sometimes for offense.
And the same thing applies for HL and his stamina consumption.

I think you have problem with understanding that by making something too good you won't make it more balanced. You make it more OP. Most people have problem with understanding this concept because they want to make their favorite class better and better thinking that it would make it useful because after spending so much time with it they starting to see limitations. But there have to be limitations. That's balance. You can't be good at everything. That's how OP is born. And just because some class don't have proper balance and because of that they have OP moves doesn't mean you should drift in their direction.

Vakris_One
08-18-2017, 11:26 AM
first they need to have a heavy look at the Samurai faction before buffing or nerfing anyone else

the Samurai needs the most help and buff at the moment , they have no mixup and no opener
First they need to implement the defense meta changes and patch out unlock exploits. Then we can look at all the characters and see what needs balancing. The Samurai roster are currently the most f****d over by turtling. Once turtling stops being so rewarding I think a lot of the Samurai roster will actually appear to be very well balanced in a post-defensive meta world.

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 11:39 AM
sorry but no we will not wait until season 4 for that ,

the hell with the defensive meta , let them buff the samurai lackluster roster and after work on their crappy defensive meta , knowing ubisoft the defensive meta changes will come with season 4 patch now that's 3 months at the earliest

thanks but no thanks

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 12:27 PM
This is not the topic for Nobushi and HS.
No, Noushi doesn't have the kit of HL. That's the whole point of having different classes. ;)
HS is the only skill that can negate every move in game except for GB. It's chain startup and can be used to feint lights. I don't know how you use it (if at all) but I can use as a *part* of strategy and often successfully, especially against parry-lovers. You don't need to spam it in order for it to be useful. You need to use it when there's a need for using it. Sometimes for defense and sometimes for offense.
And the same thing applies for HL and his stamina consumption.

I think you have problem with understanding that by making something too good you won't make it more balanced. You make it more OP. Most people have problem with understanding this concept because they want to make their favorite class better and better thinking that it would make it useful because after spending so much time with it they starting to see limitations. But there have to be limitations. That's balance. You can't be good at everything. That's how OP is born. And just because some class don't have proper balance and because of that they have OP moves doesn't mean you should drift in their direction.


you are arguing for the sake for arguing with me .

even the pro which are better and more understanding than you and myself admit that she is crap tier and can't be played at high level without her unlock tech
yet u still arguing thinking if they make her stronger she will be op :/

are you a bushi or samurai faction hater or you like to argue for the sake of it

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 12:39 PM
the more u drift into the op moves direction u achieve more balance

Ubisoft it taken that direction exactly thats why we have warlord centurion highlander and glad , either they bring those classes down to earth or they will buff the rest of the roster if dlc is an indication of whats to come , i'am expecting buff not nerf

they dont have any other choice , either 1 or 2

Draghmar
08-18-2017, 12:51 PM
you are arguing for the sake for arguing with me .

even the pro which are better and more understanding than you and myself admit that she is crap tier and can't be played at high level without her unlock tech
yet u still arguing thinking if they make her stronger she will be op :/

are you a bushi or samurai faction hater or you like to argue for the sake of it
I'm arguing because I like and because I think you're wrong. That's quite enough for me.
The same pros that argued that the parry aren't problem in this game? Because this is what I've read long time ago from the pro players...It's sad that you need to support yourself with someone's else opinion instead of using your own.
And yes, I think making her stronger will make her unbalanced like the 'tier' you're trying desperately force her into. I know she is your favorite. That's why I wrote about making 'good' changes to the class you like the most being tricky.
And if you'd read closely you would notice that Nobushi is my main from the very beginning...even from beta. The difference is that I'm not blinded by that.

Edit: You know that there is something called 'Edit post' and you can use it instead of spamming posts? ;)

the more u drift into the op moves direction u achieve more balance

Ubisoft it taken that direction exactly thats why we have warlord centurion highlander and glad , either they bring those classes down to earth or they will buff the rest of the roster if dlc is an indication of whats to come , i'am expecting buff not nerf

they dont have any other choice , either 1 or 2

No, you achieve more OPs. You end up with the fight where the first one to perform his cheese/safe move win the fight.
And I really don't know how you ended up with HL being OP...when even your pro-gods says otherwise...Especially since you didn't even play it.
Also...there is always some more choices. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Vakris_One
08-18-2017, 12:59 PM
sorry but no we will not wait until season 4 for that ,

the hell with the defensive meta , let them buff the samurai lackluster roster and after work on their crappy defensive meta , knowing ubisoft the defensive meta changes will come with season 4 patch now that's 3 months at the earliest

thanks but no thanks
Well we can't go, "the hell with the defensive meta" because it is currently the thing that's poisoning all the water in the well. What's the point of focusing on improving the water flow if the water is still poisoned at the source?

They cannot continue to balance this game around a borked mechanic such as the defense meta. That's how we got the Centurion and boy isn't he a peach? As I said, a lot of the problems for the "low tier" characters are directly caused by the fact that those characters are particularly screwed over by turtling. Remove/reduce turtling from the equation and suddenly those characters will become more competitive without even a need to directly buff them.

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 01:16 PM
anyway just to cut this none-sense arguing , the dev already said the buff are coming , and i say

hell its about time

Discussion Ended :)

SirRegisKeg
08-18-2017, 01:51 PM
Please ignore the ignorant ones like these.

Since people started noticing Highlander's ridiculous movement speed every confrontation that I've had that resulted in my opponents hp being critical has ended up with them running away and me being able to do absolutely nothing.

Seriously, the moment ANYONE starts running, as a highlander you might as well sit down and give up, it's too ridiculously slow..

So you're calling me ignorant because players run away from you? I don't know big you have played for honor that long, but use any slow character and if you actually play aggressive and not sit there like a **** waiting for parries you notice that most slow characters have trouble catching people who start running. That's not a problem with Highlanders move set, that's a problem with this thing called Cowards.

when players hp gets to the last bar they become cowards. doesn't mean Highlander needs a character breaking buff like some stupid speed boost. We can 1v1 and I promise I will catch you

SirRegisKeg
08-18-2017, 02:05 PM
and to anyone too stupid to read and comprehend my first comment, I did not say For Honor is balanced as a whole..... I said Highlander and Gladiator are of the two most balanced characters in this game.

When I lose to people playing these characters I don't feel like it was cheap and gimmicky, I feel as though they out smarted me with better fighting.

Gladiator's mix up game isn't broken to where you make two mistakes and that cost you the entire round

Draghmar
08-18-2017, 02:09 PM
anyway just to cut this none-sense arguing , the dev already said the buff are coming , and i say

hell its about time

Discussion Ended :)
Would ended if those were actually Devs that said that and not only Community Representatives that doesn't have any more power then to redirect our whining to the Devs. ;)
I think what the Vakris_One said is closest to truth - Devs waits with those changes for defense meta nerf to see how it will impact everyone.

SirRegisKeg
08-18-2017, 02:13 PM
anyway just to cut this none-sense arguing , the dev already said the buff are coming , and i say

hell its about time

Discussion Ended :)

Well I tried ... I'm a rep 3 Highlander, I've dished out alot of 3-0 matches hope people can't complain when they buff and I stomp the life out of your rep 27 warden

Breikas.
08-18-2017, 05:31 PM
Another issue he seems to be having that I don't see a lot of talk about: his dodge recovery.

It seems he can't followup a dodged Warlords Headbutt or Warden raw shoulder (among other unsafe moves) with a guaranteed guardbreak.
All other heroes can guardbreak in time after a well executed dodge on these unsafe moves, yet Highlander can't.

Vingrask
08-18-2017, 06:29 PM
According to this community, every hero should be the same.

I don't know why you try, Ubi. Just relauch the same heroes with different cosmectic moves which are, in fact, the same.

Knight_Raime
08-18-2017, 07:03 PM
Another issue he seems to be having that I don't see a lot of talk about: his dodge recovery.

It seems he can't followup a dodged Warlords Headbutt or Warden raw shoulder (among other unsafe moves) with a guaranteed guardbreak.
All other heroes can guardbreak in time after a well executed dodge on these unsafe moves, yet Highlander can't.

are you talking offensive form or defensive? because his dodge recovery in offensive is actually quite good.

Knight_Raime
08-18-2017, 07:09 PM
you are arguing for the sake for arguing with me .

even the pro which are better and more understanding than you and myself admit that she is crap tier and can't be played at high level without her unlock tech
yet u still arguing thinking if they make her stronger she will be op :/

are you a bushi or samurai faction hater or you like to argue for the sake of it

As someone else who follows the pros they do flip flop a lot on their opinion.
Bushi is considered god tier outside of duel by pros (not considering her unlock tech)
and i've also heard at least 1 pro saying that if the defensive meta was fixed she'd be proper strong.
IMO the only buff I feel she needs is her hidden stance costing a bit less stamina. Baring that her kit is actually really good.
She's just extremely screwed by that stamina cost and that her lights are super parryable (since light parry punishes are crazy at the moment.)

Of the samurai in the game she probably needs the least amount of tweaks. Right next to kensei. Orochi and shugoki are the only 2 samurai in dire need of massive changes. the other 3 will be miles better off post defensive meta fixes and only need minor tweaks to begin with.

Oupyz
08-18-2017, 08:16 PM
while i respect your opinion , but i dont give a damn about anything outside duels
to me 1v1 is where the balance is

1v1 Bushi is screwed , first for the reason u stated hidden stance cost a ton of stamina and stops stamina regeneration , second her light attacks are telegraphed and super easy to parry

while the defensive meta can fix bushi's bad weakness , but the question who is willing to wait until season 4 ?

i'am not

Tobias96716
08-18-2017, 09:13 PM
That spin move range is waaaaay to long....its way to fast and the distance is to long by far....slow it down and lessen how far you travel....also some tracking is similar to cents....heatseeking...

mrmistark
08-18-2017, 10:28 PM
You know what? The more and more I play him the more and more convince I am that he is completely balanced. I play on Xbox so before everyone starts getting crazy Xbox is very difficult to parry lights so his lights are pretty ok. I also main kensei, so I'm used to playing what is considered "low tier". Once you get his range down and realize his ub heavies can chain, his kick has crazy distance, and his hyper armor is pretty good he's actually really strong. hes just incredibly bad against centurion because the ridiculous stamina drain, shugoki because he doesn't have anything to deal with him: both trade, both have great range, except shugoki has a stamina draining quick headbut that stuns. So it's literally your defensive mode against his kit because offensive has literally nothing that can handle his armor: grab and kick do nothing, ub is easily interrupted, and lights aren't fast enough to double tap him before a hit. You can use gb to get rid of the armor which is the only viable option to beating him, which you don't even get the heavy for and lastly bad against pk. Pk switches too quickly and attacks too fast which doesn't give him any momentum needed to put in some damage.

SUMMARY: he is balanced against MOST of the roster, all he needs is a guaranteed heavy after gb, better gb range and less stamina drain against kicks, head butts, shoulder bashes etc. and I say this because personally I feel his stamina usage is perfect, just not with these in the equation, that or better natural exhaustion recovery? This in mind, again from an XBOX standpoint of course, would make him perfect in all honesty. I've been playing with him nonstop since release.

Edit* also better hits on minions should follow the logic of the swing and give better window to feint the second swing of his zone (cause I do it the same timing as when I cancel the first one and it drains the rest of my stamina, anyone else having this issue btw? I haven't been able to get it once)

Edit again* also ub grab defiantly needs to track dodges for him to be at all viable

Knight_Raime
08-18-2017, 10:49 PM
while i respect your opinion , but i dont give a damn about anything outside duels
to me 1v1 is where the balance is

1v1 Bushi is screwed , first for the reason u stated hidden stance cost a ton of stamina and stops stamina regeneration , second her light attacks are telegraphed and super easy to parry

while the defensive meta can fix bushi's bad weakness , but the question who is willing to wait until season 4 ?

i'am not

I don't care for anything outside of duels really either. But the devs can't ignore that. So like it or not we have to give them time to make the right fix.
i'm deff sticking around to season 4 and beyond.

VicInFlight
08-18-2017, 11:00 PM
I really wanted to play Highlander, And when he finally tested it, it turned out to be the weakest hero in the game. I was very upset. Developers, you yourself even tried to fight the Highlander and centurion. In my opinion, the misbalance is also not fair :Сумасшедший::Сумасшедший::Сумасшедший:

sorry for my English

Gage5t
08-19-2017, 03:29 AM
I have to agree with the majority of opinions here who seem to say he is overall to slow. There just isn't much that's fast enough to initiate other than the Celtic Curse, but that will get old quick if that is his only opener. And he is by no means a good counter fighter when he is only guaranteed OF lights or heavies when he is not parrying an assassin type. If an assassin class player is good enough they can recover fast enough from Caber's Toss or a heavy parry and block the OF light or parry the Unlockable heavy.

And along with his large stamina costs for not so high a reward, another con for the Highlander also does not regenerate Stamina while dodging in Offensive Stance. It also costs stamina just to cancel being in Offensive Stance.

I enjoy the fact that he is a hard character to play but as it has been confirmed by other players posting in this thread the raider and the warden are both capable of dealing more damage from a hit. Doesn't seem right for his lack of speed and combo options. All he can do is have a good feint game if played well but even that is detrimental as every move and feint is far more Stam draining than most the other characters I have experienced personally.

I love the character though. Will definitely keep playing with him.

Knight_Raime
08-19-2017, 05:46 AM
I have to agree with the majority of opinions here who seem to say he is overall to slow. There just isn't much that's fast enough to initiate other than the Celtic Curse, but that will get old quick if that is his only opener. And he is by no means a good counter fighter when he is only guaranteed OF lights or heavies when he is not parrying an assassin type. If an assassin class player is good enough they can recover fast enough from Caber's Toss or a heavy parry and block the OF light or parry the Unlockable heavy.

And along with his large stamina costs for not so high a reward, another con for the Highlander also does not regenerate Stamina while dodging in Offensive Stance. It also costs stamina just to cancel being in Offensive Stance.

I enjoy the fact that he is a hard character to play but as it has been confirmed by other players posting in this thread the raider and the warden are both capable of dealing more damage from a hit. Doesn't seem right for his lack of speed and combo options. All he can do is have a good feint game if played well but even that is detrimental as every move and feint is far more Stam draining than most the other characters I have experienced personally.

I love the character though. Will definitely keep playing with him.

Sorry but that's false. If you cabers toss anyone an OF light or a defensive light is guaranteed. if they are blocking yours or parrying it you're messing up on the timing. Assassins can parry the unblockable heavy after the toss. but not the OF light.

Sir_rage_quit
08-19-2017, 06:18 AM
Sometime people are able to gb me even if my weapon is a 2 inch of there head .... when im using celtic attack that annoying

kweassa1
08-19-2017, 06:22 AM
The stamina cost for canceling OF needs to be removed

- it's not an attack feint, and its a shift between basic attack form only.
- the way it is, canceling OF and reverting back to DF is a very integral part of his kit
- he already has very low stamina efficiency


HL needs to be able to revert back and forth from OF to DF freely,

Knight_Raime
08-19-2017, 10:09 AM
The stamina cost for canceling OF needs to be removed

- it's not an attack feint, and its a shift between basic attack form only.
- the way it is, canceling OF and reverting back to DF is a very integral part of his kit
- he already has very low stamina efficiency


HL needs to be able to revert back and forth from OF to DF freely,

In general I think we can all agree that he needs better stamina. either a bigger pool or less cost. If he did more damage I could understand the stamina situation as is.

Alustar.
08-19-2017, 01:34 PM
So I'm getting the hang of managing stamina, it ducks that I'm limited to maybe a few chains of heavies then I have to revert back to DS, my main problem right now with Highlander is engaging assassins.
Any tips are welcome :D

brainfrog.345
08-19-2017, 02:01 PM
the main issue i see with him is his health pool and damage. He just can't trade effectively against most classes. Considering the sluggish speed of his attacks he should have the most damage.
Shugoki for example, hits harder, with faster attacks and a higher health pool. Doesn't make sense to me.
OIther than that i enjoy playing him very much, for now. Will have to wait and see how he fares once people have figured out how to beat him.

AatiGumer
08-19-2017, 07:10 PM
Can you tell me what language the Highlander speaks? Gaelic? Icelandic?

kweassa1
08-19-2017, 08:34 PM
I'm kinda thinking the reddit translation (although good work and interesting) is wrong.. and in all odds, he's probably speaking old Irish/Gaelic.

Vasher.
08-19-2017, 08:50 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this...if they have I apologize. Why is this character made to be a Heavy/Vanguard Hybrid, and meant to trade blows and put on pressure when A: His Stamina is quite low, B: Why is his health pool only 5 more than a PK's? The Gladiator who is supposed to be an Assassin Hybrid has far more health...doesn't make sense to me.

Casper5632
08-19-2017, 09:05 PM
The highlander has pitiful punishment capability. Most of my damage done comes from the superarmor on the heavy attack and trading blows like a shu, but once people start getting wise to that I am going to start losing heavily. If you parry an attack there is nothing you can 100% do to punish the enemy for letting you land a parry. Half the time you are out of range of a guard break, which sometimes can get you a top heavy attack. A light attack after a parry can be dodged as well. Trying to punish someone after a parry leads to you getting punished yourself half the time.

A Lawbringer, one of the heaviest enemies in the game, is considerable faster than a highlander. The highlander has considerably less health than a heavy class. He doesnt make up for this with more damage. The only thing mobile about him is his dash attack feinted into a side attack, which feels completely out of place for him being the slowest class in the game.

The only edge a highlander has is the crushing counterstrike from all sides, which makes offensive mode stance completely useless unless you are trying to dispatch someone in a 2v1.

In short the highlander needs to be faster, or have more health, or have more damage. As he is now he is just a slow punching bag that is too easy to avoid.

Sneaky-Patches
08-19-2017, 09:51 PM
I noticed that highlander gets a second guaranteed heavy on shinobi if he hits with the first. It's like 90% of my health, and I have 180 gear too. Would prob straight up Insta kill less geared shinobis, or especially once highlanders start getting better gear in the coming weeks.

Seems a little unfair I dunno

Other than that they seem pretty good though, you guys are defo getting better at making heroes. I'm just glad it's not another centurion.

Alustar.
08-19-2017, 10:37 PM
His counter potential is nice but the timing I thing I still need to work with. One thing that does annoy me is the amount of stamina burned on canceling out of OS. If I'm fighting heavily aggressive heros like assassins where I need to be able to shift back quickly, this is costly.

kweassa1
08-19-2017, 10:59 PM
I noticed that highlander gets a second guaranteed heavy on shinobi if he hits with the first. It's like 90% of my health, and I have 180 gear too. Would prob straight up Insta kill less geared shinobis, or especially once highlanders start getting better gear in the coming weeks.

Seems a little unfair I dunno

Other than that they seem pretty good though, you guys are defo getting better at making heroes. I'm just glad it's not another centurion.

It doesn't.


https://youtu.be/dNIyRJkPOW4

mrmistark
08-20-2017, 01:16 AM
Can we talk about, not the most pressing, but the most annoying matter now that pretty much everything is hashed out?

WHY DOES GETTING HIT BY FRIENDLY stop offensive mode? Literally so annoying. i get MAYBE during an ub heavy, I mean...I guess. But come on, literally EVRY other heros melee attacks don't get interrupted by a friendly attack.

kweassa1
08-20-2017, 01:26 AM
Can we talk about, not the most pressing, but the most annoying matter now that pretty much everything is hashed out?

WHY DOES GETTING HIT BY FRIENDLY stop offensive mode? Literally so annoying. i get MAYBE during an ub heavy, I mean...I guess. But come on, literally EVRY other heros melee attacks don't get interrupted by a friendly attack.

That's an interesting point, because currently, I don't rate the Highlander as a really capable "ganker" class at all. Most of his attacks are easily blocked/parried out of target, and once you do change into OF, the OF's easily canceled if your teammates are clueless, as well as OF attacks are much shorter in reach than DF attacks. Another problem is the HL's own attacks are much too disruptive to your teammates as well, so its a proverbial friendly-fire nightmare.

Unless it's like, just two people ganking one person, one on one side, and the highlander at the other side, I really wouldn't bother using the HL in ganks because its quite possible he'd do more harm than good. Especially in narrow corridors or bridges or anywhere it's cramped...


So if like two of my teammates gank one enemy, and I'm sure the two of them can take the enemy out by themselves, I don't usually bother getting into a gank and just go somewhere else and do stuff like culling the minions.

Jedijrobbie
08-20-2017, 03:53 AM
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this...if they have I apologize. Why is this character made to be a Heavy/Vanguard Hybrid, and meant to trade blows and put on pressure when A: His Stamina is quite low, B: Why is his health pool only 5 more than a PK's? The Gladiator who is supposed to be an Assassin Hybrid has far more health...doesn't make sense to me.

This! He's slow and has pitiful health. Not to mention his damage is lackluster and teammates being able to knock you out of OS is ridiculous.

Devils-_-legacy
08-20-2017, 02:34 PM
The only character that if your parrying someone else's attacks his attacks hit just after the parry window the side heavys are his only good moves but only seems to kill assassins because of the ******** guard can't seem to deflect his moves tho my shinobi does the action but just says still happening on the second heavy not sure if its just buggy game or a real bug tho

Alustar.
08-20-2017, 02:49 PM
This! He's slow and has pitiful health. Not to mention his damage is lackluster and teammates being able to knock you out of OS is ridiculous.

His speed isn't the issue. That just means you have to play a very tentative distance disstance game. The reason I'm having issues is that the time it takes to cancel the kick and actually execute the grab. When I'm on my PK I know all i have to do is keep pressure.

BananaBlighter
08-20-2017, 10:24 PM
I just think he need more damage on all his heavies and better stamina (not use stamina when switching to and from OF).

AutisicBaby
08-21-2017, 12:50 AM
The kick is pretty ridiculous in ganking situation. I think there should be cool down on it so it wont be spammed like this (really annoying when this happened pretty much stun locked)
https://youtu.be/LlRQoEnWS2k

kweassa1
08-21-2017, 01:52 AM
His speed isn't the issue. That just means you have to play a very tentative distance disstance game. The reason I'm having issues is that the time it takes to cancel the kick and actually execute the grab. When I'm on my PK I know all i have to do is keep pressure.

That's what OF lights are for.

It's a 400ms light attack which counts as among the fastest, and in situations where the HL goes into OF with the initiative (such as parry-OF, parr-OF-light, or crushing counter light-OF...) its fast enough to cut off most attack attempts.

Therefore the problem once again reverts to his stamina cost during OF.

Honestly I've got no problems with how much the OF heavy, kick, or cabtoss costs... but the OF-light stamina cost is way, way too much.

nufrancis
08-21-2017, 05:10 AM
This! He's slow and has pitiful health. Not to mention his damage is lackluster and teammates being able to knock you out of OS is ridiculous.

+1 for this.

Slow hero like him deserve a better health pool.

Im not complaining about stamina except for one move, Light attack on OF. Not worthed for 25% of stamina I think. I know its consume a lot because it count as feint. So please change it so we can initiate the Light without feinting.

mrmistark
08-21-2017, 05:17 AM
The kick is pretty ridiculous in ganking situation. I think there should be cool down on it so it wont be spammed like this (really annoying when this happened pretty much stun locked)
https://youtu.be/LlRQoEnWS2k

I'm sorry but I think it's fine. One hit from LITERALLY anybody to include teammates puts him back into ds without a single helpful tool except a non feinted Celtic curse to help a teammate 2v1 someone but also leaves it easily parried giving potential easy double parry. Probably the most useless ganker in my opinion as he also does way more harm than good in almost every situation when it comes to ganking unless you can monkey in the middle your opponent which is kinda what happened here but even better as the stuck you in the corner. It should be noted any other character aside from maybe nobushi would have either hit the wall not you or hit the hl putting him out of os.

kweassa1
08-21-2017, 05:25 AM
I'm sorry but I think it's fine. One hit from LITERALLY anybody to include teammates puts him back into ds without a single helpful tool except a non feinted Celtic curse to help a teammate 2v1 someone but also leaves it easily parried giving potential easy double parry. Probably the most useless ganker in my opinion as he also does way more harm than good in almost every situation when it comes to ganking unless you can monkey in the middle your opponent which is kinda what happened here but even better as the stuck you in the corner. It should be noted any other character aside from maybe nobushi would have either hit the wall not you or hit the hl putting him out of os.

Agreed.

Draghmar
08-21-2017, 08:35 AM
I know its consume a lot because it count as feint.
What do you mean that it counts as feint?

Mythic MK II
08-21-2017, 06:33 PM
I don't want to talk about his ability as aa fighter, plenty of people taalking about their concerns for that on this thread already. and many valid points have been said.
What I do want to discuss is his true Endgame:

His fashion!

Why can I only make his sash/kilt bright colours? Like red and blue? Why can't I use a colour that makes it black or white? EVERYTHING IS SO BRIGHT D:
Also, why does his cape/cloak get smaller the higher the version of gear he gets? His standard gear looks best because of the pelt and cloack he has. the upgraded versions of them are just so tiny that it really makes it ugly. (I hate tiny capes, better to eithe get rid of it or make it longer to go atleast below the waist)

Anyways, reference for colour (examples are with Lawbringer and what he can be coloured and Highlander for the same attacker position. The darkest shade of any colour on attacker is still really rred)

LB:
http://imgur.com/2mlVueM

Highlander:
http://imgur.com/saCwSw4

ON LB and most (if not all, bit unsure) the bright colours are the smaller accents. on HL it is a big parrt, Pretty please switch it up?

EDIT: The images didn't work for somereason (Right tag, right link, just won't work)

Alustar.
08-21-2017, 11:13 PM
I don't want to talk about his ability as aa fighter, plenty of people taalking about their concerns for that on this thread already. and many valid points have been said.
What I do want to discuss is his true Endgame:

His fashion!

Why can I only make his sash/kilt bright colours? Like red and blue? Why can't I use a colour that makes it black or white? EVERYTHING IS SO BRIGHT D:
Also, why does his cape/cloak get smaller the higher the version of gear he gets? His standard gear looks best because of the pelt and cloack he has. the upgraded versions of them are just so tiny that it really makes it ugly. (I hate tiny capes, better to eithe get rid of it or make it longer to go atleast below the waist)

Anyways, reference for colour (examples are with Lawbringer and what he can be coloured and Highlander for the same attacker position. The darkest shade of any colour on attacker is still really rred)

LB:
http://imgur.com/2mlVueM

Highlander:
http://imgur.com/saCwSw4

ON LB and most (if not all, bit unsure) the bright colours are the smaller accents. on HL it is a big parrt, Pretty please switch it up?

EDIT: The images didn't work for somereason (Right tag, right link, just won't work)

I'd like to piggy back on this as I have experimented with the color schemes and it doesn't exactly make sense as to what dyes what with him. Every other character the color wheel is clearly represented and applied to the gear uniformly and consistently, however in Highlander's case(at least in regards to the kilt) they dyes are seemingly random on which color from the pallet will apply to the fabric on the kilt.
While it's not paramount in regards to fixes, it's a little frustrating finding a color scheme that I enjoy since they don't apply as I feel they should.

InSaNiAzz
08-21-2017, 11:55 PM
This Highlander needs sorting out A.S.A.P! What a broken character that has stupid tracking, people saying he's slow he ******* isn't.. He can do the Warden's counter attack on all sides, his over the top cancel spin attack is super fast. He's just a broken character who needs to be sorted out.

Mythic MK II
08-21-2017, 11:55 PM
Yup, it always goes to "team" colour instead of wha thte dyes indicate. I hate it :/
The reason I picked up LB was because he looked cool and I like slow characters (played him since FH came out). But this tidbit annoys the crap out of me.

To the guy above me:

Really... fight him more and see where he is going with the top heavy cancel. It is pretty easy to predict. Only in 4v4 is it hard due to ganking. best to just block and wait. Also, and I know it is somewhat cliche but it does apply, dodge on the right timing and you can get out of the kick/kick-grab combo easily and punish him.

You arre currently just raging because you have little to no experienc fighting him 1v1.
Also, if you encounter a HL that is going into his off stance without using an attack to flow into it, just hit him with a light. easy damage on them.

kweassa1
08-22-2017, 02:02 AM
This Highlander needs sorting out A.S.A.P! What a broken character that has stupid tracking, people saying he's slow he ******* isn't.. He can do the Warden's counter attack on all sides, his over the top cancel spin attack is super fast. He's just a broken character who needs to be sorted out.

(1) HL's DF crushing counter lights are 600ms. It's a slow light and to use this to CC 500ms lights like warden, lawbringer, orochi toplights, you basically need to activate the light before even seeing the opponent's attack indicator and hope the guy activates his attack at the same timing.

(2) Celtic Curse is 900ms. It's slower than most heavies. "Super fast" my arse. Most people already parry all three variations upon reflex alone.


Get your facts straight before demanding something.

Alustar.
08-22-2017, 03:37 AM
So a quick thought about stamina, I think it's actually fine as is. I'd like to see canceling a stance not consume anything and OS lights drain less, but over all I think this is a good fit.

My reasoning is his damage values and potential for an EXTREME amounts of mix ups make up for this.

The Highlander is a methodic class, he's not the fastest, but in some aspects he's not the slowest either. He is the perfect burst fighter. You drop in, bash around, then pull back. Wait, then counter and hit another burst.

A charging over head heavy that leads into an UB right hit, then another from the left. Pause pull back, Wait for the attack, parry or CC it to fast flow into OS, then again with an UB heavy, left then top only this top is canceled into a kick, followed by a quick top light and side UB heavy. This way you can viably access most of your mix up and still be conservative on stamina.

Nickeloneon
08-22-2017, 05:33 AM
Highlander's Unblockable after kick in Offensive stance is really inconsistent... sometimes it doesn't even reach after you kick someone, it's really weird... Is it because of the terrain? I've noticed if there is a small rock or slight deviation in the terrain it can alter the way the UB tracks.

nufrancis
08-22-2017, 08:25 AM
What do you mean that it counts as feint?

A bit correction here.

I mean its not really a feint, but as I see it we are holding the heavy button while initiating light attack. It feels much like soft fein, thus the stamina cost is like feint. Anyone feel the same?

Note: I am talking about Lights attack in OF mode

Alustar.
08-22-2017, 02:07 PM
A bit correction here.

I mean its not really a feint, but as I see it we are holding the heavy button while initiating light attack. It feels much like soft fein, thus the stamina cost is like feint. Anyone feel the same?

Note: I am talking about Lights attack in OF mode

I don't feel that's the case, because there is a clear difference between an OS heavy canceled into a light and a OS light hit alone.

Alustar.
08-22-2017, 02:08 PM
Highlander's Unblockable after kick in Offensive stance is really inconsistent... sometimes it doesn't even reach after you kick someone, it's really weird... Is it because of the terrain? I've noticed if there is a small rock or slight deviation in the terrain it can alter the way the UB tracks.

I find terrain and elevation in relation to your target is very important. It's harder to hit someone higher up on a staircase for example.

MASTAHKILLER48
08-22-2017, 06:53 PM
First off the highlander is a ton of fun to play but some issues I have found is he is a bit too slow, I get parried most of the time with any attack I do no matter what it might be. I think he is a tad bit too slow but the other thing is he doesn't do that much damage for being that slow. He is still weaker than the raider and warden and other heroes. I don't want a game breaking buff but just some looks at his damage maybe? Not sure what could be done maybe some people can argue what I've said but I do know his damage is lackluster for having the biggest weapon in the game. Any other ideas feel free to express Other than that he is a ton of fun and pretty satisfying to use. Also his kick sometimes knocks people out of range of being hit I don't know if that is normal but that does happen.

Alustar.
08-22-2017, 10:58 PM
First off the highlander is a ton of fun to play but some issues I have found is he is a bit too slow, I get parried most of the time with any attack I do no matter what it might be. I think he is a tad bit too slow but the other thing is he doesn't do that much damage for being that slow. He is still weaker than the raider and warden and other heroes. I don't want a game breaking buff but just some looks at his damage maybe? Not sure what could be done maybe some people can argue what I've said but I do know his damage is lackluster for having the biggest weapon in the game. Any other ideas feel free to express Other than that he is a ton of fun and pretty satisfying to use. Also his kick sometimes knocks people out of range of being hit I don't know if that is normal but that does happen.

His damage is actually very nice, I can have someone dead in 5-6 hits I think? Depending on how I'm playing, it's on par with the rest of the cast IMO, since he has access to nice mix ups and crowd control.
His speed will take getting. Used to though, not many people were ready for how slow his start up is. Once you get going though, he speeds up noticably

TheLastPandaa
08-23-2017, 01:37 AM
I used the Highlander this morning (22/08/07) and tonight i just reached rep 01. Im a total Rep 90 between all heroes by now so consider my self quite experienced in the game. This sayed i will give my first impresion about him:

It has potential to be competitive, but the efort/skill it requires does not make him worth it. So, there is no real point in using a Highlander. None. All he does can be better done by other characters.
Do you want free unblock? try shugo. Do you want to try the feint/cancel train with unblck? Try cent or glad.

On paper he is a weapon of mass destruction, but on reality, he is slow, does not very high dmg, not very high defence and a HUGE cost of stamina that makes imposible to keep presure on your oponent.

I will continue using him, but only because i spent more than 50k steel on outfits executions and emotes to make him look nice. Maybe i end my self linking him eventually.

kweassa1
08-23-2017, 01:51 AM
His damage is actually very nice, I can have someone dead in 5-6 hits I think? Depending on how I'm playing, it's on par with the rest of the cast IMO, since he has access to nice mix ups and crowd control.

Agreed on damage. People get the (misguided) perception that his damage is "low", because;

- (a) is difficult to land good hits with low proficiency/mastery of the HL's kit
- (b) HL isn't really centered on "easy damage" through variety of "guaranteed damage" situations

He's no slouch. Heavy damage is on the high side, light damage is also VERY high on successful Counter strike, and on average on normal hit.



His speed will take getting. Used to though, not many people were ready for how slow his start up is. Once you get going though, he speeds up noticably

Agreed as well.

It's not like we've not had something as slow before. Shugoki lights are the same speed as HL's, and his Shugoki heavy is even slower. Compared to that, for the HL, having Crushing Counter trait on all light attacks more or less justifies the 600ms activation, and only the 1st heavy attack is slow at 1,000ms. His 2nd heavies are actually surprisingly fast, clocked in at 600ms (!). That's the same speed as the Centurion's heavy-heavy combo. The 2nd heavy is so fast, that it requires light-parry timing to parry that one, and if you have blocked, or have been hit by the 1st heavy, you can'd dodge out of the 2nd one.

There's a lot of minute factors which may have a lot of practical effects in combat... and personally, regardless of what "tier" he is in, I now have a very high view of how the HL was designed and how much thought the devs have put into the class to give us something new.

It's a VERY good effort and they managed to give us something that is actually fun without being OP.

A great big kudos to the development team. HL is another good design.



(ps) ...and as I've mentioned elsewhere, both the Highlander and the Gladiator SCREAMS of design points which CLEARLY had the meta-fix changes in mind. Under the supposition that the meta-fix patch did make it through to season 3, in that environment the HL would be actually a LOT stronger.

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 01:51 AM
I used the Highlander this morning (22/08/07) and tonight i just reached rep 01. Im a total Rep 90 between all heroes by now so consider my self quite experienced in the game. This sayed i will give my first impresion about him:

It has potential to be competitive, but the efort/skill it requires does not make him worth it. So, there is no real point in using a Highlander. None. All he does can be better done by other characters.
Do you want free unblock? try shugo. Do you want to try the feint/cancel train with unblck? Try cent or glad.

On paper he is a weapon of mass destruction, but on reality, he is slow, does not very high dmg, not very high defence and a HUGE cost of stamina that makes imposible to keep presure on your oponent.

I will continue using him, but only because i spent more than 50k steel on outfits executions and emotes to make him look nice. Maybe i end my self linking him eventually.

I don't think that's a very accurate assessment. Mostly because he can do a few things no one do. Similarly as how every hero can do something that the others can't.

As to him not being worth the effort, that's your opinion, and honestly I happen to wildly disagree. I think this class is the underdog hero of the season.
I just got out of a skirmish match where I wiped a whole group of 3 Gladiators and a Warden, didn't receive back up till the final kill.

Now granted that's not to say I did something spectacular.(butsrsly it was sick) In fact I can point out the wild flaws and moments that it could have ended poorly. The Highlander is a very powerful class in the right hands.

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 01:58 AM
(ps) ...and as I've mentioned elsewhere, both the Highlander and the Gladiator SCREAMS of design points which CLEARLY had the meta-fix changes in mind. Under the supposition that the meta-fix patch did make it through to season 3, in that environment the HL would be actually a LOT stronger.

So wild thought, what if those changes are just going to be slowly implemented to sort of ween off and establish the new paradigm, rather than just having everyone wake up and suddenly everything's changed. And in that same motion make tweaks and adjustments to characters as needed.

kweassa1
08-23-2017, 02:06 AM
So wild thought, what if those changes are just going to be slowly implemented to sort of ween off and establish the new paradigm, rather than just having everyone wake up and suddenly everything's changed. And in that same motion make tweaks and adjustments to characters as needed.

If that were possible we'd already be living in a Utopia, alu. ;)

"Change" is like waxing your nether-regions. You don't "slowly pull" -- it only makes things worse.

When you need change, YOU YANK ON IT. :D :D

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 02:11 AM
If that were possible we'd already be living in a Utopia, alu. ;)

"Change" is like waxing your nether-regions. You don't "slowly pull" -- it only makes things worse.

When you need change, YOU YANK ON IT. :D :D

I want to have your babies...

Sekiro...
08-23-2017, 02:40 AM
+1 for this.

Slow hero like him deserve a better health pool.

Im not complaining about stamina except for one move, Light attack on OF. Not worthed for 25% of stamina I think. I know its consume a lot because it count as feint. So please change it so we can initiate the Light without feinting.
Dude, he is slow but he have an amazing arsenal of moves.
Shugoki is slow and have huge health pool but he dont have so many moves optons like Highlander's moveset.
Its how balance works.

HIghlander is cool, he have a "Legal Flicker", 2 instances, that grab and that kick...
You cant expect him to have more HP.

Sekiro...
08-23-2017, 02:42 AM
The kick is pretty ridiculous in ganking situation. I think there should be cool down on it so it wont be spammed like this (really annoying when this happened pretty much stun locked)
https://youtu.be/LlRQoEnWS2k

Reminds me Centurion's jab...

both moves needs to be nerfed, reworked, removed or whatever....

ArcheDemonm
08-23-2017, 06:11 AM
Highlanders lights are so slow that you can start a light, gladiator can start a heavy in response, miss the CC frames(means not trigger CC)and still hit you first before even being interrupted. Thats ****ed up.

Draghmar
08-23-2017, 07:38 AM
Highlanders lights are so slow that you can start a light, gladiator can start a heavy in response, miss the CC frames(means not trigger CC)and still hit you first before even being interrupted. Thats ****ed up.
Both HL's first DS light and Cent's heavy have the same speed.

kweassa1
08-23-2017, 07:55 AM
Both HL's first DS light and Cent's heavy have the same speed.

...not to mention the CC frames last for around 300ms...which means, in order to avoid the CC frames and still intercept a highlander's light, your attack needs to be under 300ms in activation time.


(os) where do these people dig up all these bullshi* anyway? :rolleyes:

ArcheDemonm
08-23-2017, 07:59 AM
You do understand that CC frames must be applied to late part of the heavy and are early parts of light, right?

OneVikingArmy
08-23-2017, 01:22 PM
Hi all,

Quick feedback on highlander.

1) to be fixed :
- GB range
- side heavy out of GB
- his zone and sprint attack tracking to be improved
2) to be buffed
- increase dmg slightly
- 150 hp at least for his type of fighting!
- stamina costs have to be smaller!
- uninterruptible stance just after first hit for sprint attack and for his zone for second and third.
3) optional changes (great to be have one of the below at least) :
- his recovery is one of the worst so adding possibility to hit light after missed kick or "caber toss" would be a lot. Sb still can hit you but you can avoid gb
- his kick should knock down when in revenge or opponent is out of stamina

Cheers,
Hub

Draghmar
08-23-2017, 01:35 PM
2) to be buffed
- increase dmg slightly
- 150 hp at least for his type of fighting!
- stamina costs have to be smaller!

3) optional changes (great to be have one of the below at least) :
- his recovery is one of the worst so adding possibility to hit light after missed kick or "caber toss" would be a lot. Sb still can hit you but you can avoid gb
- his kick should knock down when in revenge or opponent is out of stamina
It seems to me that you want to make him better then balanced, which is the problem most people have in terms of their idea of balancing.
- don't see the reason for making damage higher.
- again don't see the reason for giving him more HP
- as above - stamin cost is ok as a thing for balance

- he is punishable after toss and that's fine - he should be to not make this move spam fest and use it in proper situations. After kick you can defend yourself.
- No it should not...no UB moves should actually do that

vgrimr_J
08-23-2017, 04:53 PM
highlanders spear feat needs fixing. you cant see that when its coming.

indicator needs to be bigger

D-d0g56
08-23-2017, 06:05 PM
His offensive light takes up more stamina than his UB heavy. It can ony be used 4 times before OOS, where as the UB heavy can be used 5 times before OOS. It's somewhat hard to justify using when tring to break people down.

Ron_Dambo
08-23-2017, 07:59 PM
Spinning celtic curse is NOT dogdeable with orochi. Change this.

Netcode_err_404
08-23-2017, 09:38 PM
Right now this class is completely worthless.

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 10:11 PM
Right now this class is completely worthless.

Lol, it's not an easy class to play. Don't expect to jump in and trash on a whole team.

Netcode_err_404
08-23-2017, 10:21 PM
Lol, it's not an easy class to play. Don't expect to jump in and trash on a whole team.


Yeah bla bla bla,

You will see

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 10:38 PM
Yeah bla bla bla,

You will see

I don't need to, I'm playing the game same as you are. The difference is that I'm not feeling upset by my performance a with HL, nor am I blaming my lack of ability at this class on him being underpowered in comparison.

Netcode_err_404
08-23-2017, 11:02 PM
I don't need to, I'm playing the game same as you are. The difference is that I'm not feeling upset by my performance a with HL, nor am I blaming my lack of ability at this class on him being underpowered in comparison.



Im upset because as always the most interesting classes are outplayed by spam fest classes.

My lack os skils is brought in only when it suits you, otherwise its the class, Seems legit, Following that idiotic thought no class is worthless, people just don't pick them because they are upset by their performances.


Next tourney on ps4 pls sign up, I would love to see you winning.

Because jusdging how you speak you must be a total pro of the game. Like kweassa1, except his stats are utter trash.

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 11:19 PM
I never have claimed to be any good at the game comparatively to the people on these forums. You can go back and look at my post and see, I am a **** player. I know this and have come to terms with this fact.

Knowing that fact, however I still find a means of enjoying myself in 4v4 and having FUN cutting heads off.
Why? Because I don't care about soddy 1v1 or who's ability to execute "x" combo after whatever and master of frame cycles and refresh and, I could care less about class preference or W/L rating.

I play to get into a match and come out with more kills and or points than the other guys. But mainly the killing.

So if you want to try and use my personal skill level as a refference go ahead, I admit I'm trash.

Alustar on PSN

Check my stats if you want, they will support that, hell if you want the most accurate description of how scummy I am, ask Antonio. He's caught me in duels and seen me fight in 4v4s.
Just don't expect to use me being trash as an out, it's not going to net you much in the long term. No one here cares.

ArcheDemonm
08-23-2017, 11:45 PM
Sounds like you don't have the qualification to give feedback on a hero. And that's why this matters.

Alustar.
08-23-2017, 11:59 PM
And that somehow negates my ability to use logic/reason and experience in an effort to evaluate my own personal performance?

Lol you don't have to be a leet-tard to give feedback here. If they wanted exclusively "pro" thoughts this conversation wouldn't even be a thing.

Next?

ArcheDemonm
08-24-2017, 12:50 AM
Well, I should note that you cant realy on logic and reason to sort out facts and build when you don't have any meaningfull data available. Since i doubt you have data from other players experience, that would imply that you have no data at all.

This discussion is meant for players who actually took the time to see the heroes strength's and weaknesses and played actual PvP. Whether they should be considered "pro" or not is not really the point of this debate.

I doubt this is the place to discuss personal insecurities either.

Alustar.
08-24-2017, 01:00 AM
Lol ok, so here try this. You can argue your hypothetical scenarios based on millisecond thresholds and all of that other jargon you want to justify your OPINION.

I on the other hand am going to Continue providing my personal experience as feedback to the community, (you know the actual purpose of these forums. Not this sorry attempt to discredit someone's opinion because he doesn't meet the arbitrary standards you seem to have set.) and enjoy playing the HL with all the enthusiasm of a bagful of jelly bellies fighting over the last hit of acid.

kweassa1
08-24-2017, 01:51 AM
Spinning celtic curse is NOT dogdeable with orochi. Change this.

It's dodgeable.

As I've laid out in so many different posts, dodge at the moment when the actual attack comes out, not on presumption. In other words, when you dodge the moment the HL dashes forward and draws his sword up, then you're hit. When you dodge AFTER he starts "twirling", then you dodged. I've had quite few many classes -- including the orochi -- dodge the attack , and visually it looks like the claymore just passes through the target without hitting it. (just like when people dodge most other horizontal attacks)

Of course, the timing is tight so people would rather not risk it and simply block or parry.

Knight_Raime
08-24-2017, 02:17 AM
It's dodgeable.

As I've laid out in so many different posts, dodge at the moment when the actual attack comes out, not on presumption. In other words, when you dodge the moment the HL dashes forward and draws his sword up, then you're hit. When you dodge AFTER he starts "twirling", then you dodged. I've had quite few many classes -- including the orochi -- dodge the attack , and visually it looks like the claymore just passes through the target without hitting it. (just like when people dodge most other horizontal attacks)

Of course, the timing is tight so people would rather not risk it and simply block or parry.

Assassins got it easy against HL to be honest. dodging later on pretty much counters everything he can throw at one.
HL has to actively punish aggression from them. Which isn't easy to do at all.

Thasnatos
08-24-2017, 02:21 AM
Here's my thoughts on Highlander.
Let's start with basic stuff first

1) Crushing Counterstrike
His Crushing Counter is a great tool but its not really good in real life it can only Counter Heavy Attacks. When comes to Light Attack you cannot change your guard direction then perform the Crushing Counter on Light Attacks. The direction your guard has to be on the same side as the Light Attack. If you change the direction and perform the Crushing Counter move it'll end up missing and you'll eat the light to the face, if you get really lucky maybe the light will be blocked. So although Highlander has great move but its not going to be useful in most of the time.

2) Stamina
Hish Stampool and his move stamina cost. Its either he has really really low stamina pool or his move waste a lot of stamina. 1 Combo from Heavy cancel into Kick cancel into Grudge takes all of your stamina bar away. I usually do the combo Dash heavy feint into side heavy and go to offensive form and do the Heavy but in some situation my opponent can read my plays and parry the 2nd unblockable heavy so I'll have to change the play style by feint the 2nd Heavy into Kick or Grudge. The point is this action waste all of my stamina and turn me into Exhausted this is not a big deal at the moment but when the PTS changes come when out of stamina = death sentence is going to hurt Highlander a lot !!

3) GB bug and Parry Punish
As we all know Highlander has the bug or I think its a bug where you can't GB or the GB range is too short after the parry. If this is not a bug then there's no point of keep playing him but if this is a bug I hope that there'll be fix patch.
Let's move on to Parry Punish Why other character like Warden gets a top heavy (40 damage) of a light parry and Highlander gets a heavy in offensive stance (30 damage) off a light parry and no Heavy after GB ? the side heavy in defensive stance deals 30 damage ... Valk, Shugoki, Orochi, Gladiator,Warlord,Lawbringer, etc heavies deal 30 damage, why those characters gets a heavy while Highlander can not ? I know Highlander can get the zone off a GB but the attack deal like 25 damage + drain like 69% of your stamina bar when you cancel the attack.

I think overall Highlander is a fine character but he'll need some fix and a small buff in Crushing Counter to make him on the same level as other characters.

Bloodykal
08-24-2017, 02:22 AM
And that somehow negates my ability to use logic/reason and experience in an effort to evaluate my own personal performance?

Lol you don't have to be a leet-tard to give feedback here. If they wanted exclusively "pro" thoughts this conversation wouldn't even be a thing.

Next?

Ok... this sounds like a " i am one off the few highlanders and if they buff him im mot the only one anymore" kinda problem.

There is no reason no logical one at that to say that this guy is fine as he is. He is slow his tracking is garbage, hes inconsistent, has low health, poor damage and terrible stamina. Like someonelse said there is no reason to pick him because a ton of others do a better job.

And even the pro's think so just go on the competitive reddit.
I understand that you feel special as one of the few highlanders that play but sorry thats no excuse for beimg in denail with his flaws

Alustar.
08-24-2017, 03:13 AM
Ok... this sounds like a " i am one off the few highlanders and if they buff him im mot the only one anymore" kinda problem.

There is no reason no logical one at that to say that this guy is fine as he is. He is slow his tracking is garbage, hes inconsistent, has low health, poor damage and terrible stamina. Like someonelse said there is no reason to pick him because a ton of others do a better job.

And even the pro's think so just go on the competitive reddit.
I understand that you feel special as one of the few highlanders that play but sorry thats no excuse for beimg in denail with his flaws

To the initial comment, you would be wildly off base. As I've stated I don't care for hero popularity in regards to how I base the decision of what to play. More or less would bother me none what so ever.

Second, there is a logical reason someone would defend the HL as being in a decent spot. That's because, from my position in the game, I perform well in most matches, and in some above my expectations. It's ok if others don't feel the same, that's why these threads exist.

I've said where my thoughts are on his kit. Feel free to view it as needed. I've even posted feedback from things that I've found to help others better understand the hero.

But go on, I love seeing posts with no intrinsic value to the topic at hand.

Netcode_err_404
08-24-2017, 03:18 AM
I never have claimed to be any good at the game comparatively to the people on these forums. You can go back and look at my post and see, I am a **** player. I know this and have come to terms with this fact.

Knowing that fact, however I still find a means of enjoying myself in 4v4 and having FUN cutting heads off.
Why? Because I don't care about soddy 1v1 or who's ability to execute "x" combo after whatever and master of frame cycles and refresh and, I could care less about class preference or W/L rating.

I play to get into a match and come out with more kills and or points than the other guys. But mainly the killing.

So if you want to try and use my personal skill level as a refference go ahead, I admit I'm trash.

Alustar on PSN

Check my stats if you want, they will support that, hell if you want the most accurate description of how scummy I am, ask Antonio. He's caught me in duels and seen me fight in 4v4s.
Just don't expect to use me being trash as an out, it's not going to net you much in the long term. No one here cares.


I really don't care about your stats, if you use logic, you are welcome to give your opinion.

Just don't be the "git gud" guy of the situation.

HL is trash atm, he does stupid low damage, is slow. He is totally worthless.

And has 5 more hp than gladiator LOL which is a bloody assassin.



HL seems ton of fun to use and mix up, but you know this game how it works.

Alustar.
08-24-2017, 03:45 AM
At this point I'm not even going to dignify this with any further argument.

On a note that relates to the topic at hand, I am getting the hang of landing my kicks and throws. The timing is very tight after a cancel to avoid getting hit by the incoming parry attempt. The payoff however is so worth the practice.

kweassa1
08-24-2017, 06:06 AM
At this point I'm not even going to dignify this with any further argument.

On a note that relates to the topic at hand, I am getting the hang of landing my kicks and throws. The timing is very tight after a cancel to avoid getting hit by the incoming parry attempt. The payoff however is so worth the practice.


Basically everything's trash to a trash player.. and the reason people hate the "git gud" argument is simply because its right.

There's nothing more irritating than someone coming up to you and pointing out "uh.. I don't think you're doing it right" -- when you've laid out all this exposition to argue that its not your fault that you suck in it. So in general it is a wise move to simply put the idiots on the ignore list, and just trade ideas tips, tricks and tactics among people who actually "gets it".


On that note, I'm also discovering more and more that how you cancel and move out of OF and revert back into DF ... is even more important than attacking in OF... This is why I generally agree to the opinion that the OF light consumes too much stamina -- which it does.

We.the.North
08-24-2017, 06:41 AM
I wont get into details, but I think Highlander is in a very good spot.

He's not OP, but he's not bad either.

Draghmar
08-24-2017, 07:40 AM
I think I know why there is this inconsistency with his UB after kick where sometimes it lands and sometimes it don't. The same problem happens with Conq's SB into...whatever his attacks is as a followup. If you dodge backwards but do it too late you'll eat SB (or HL's kick) but it will position you a little bit further and thus incoming attack will miss.

kweassa1
08-24-2017, 08:24 AM
I think I know why there is this inconsistency with his UB after kick where sometimes it lands and sometimes it don't. The same problem happens with Conq's SB into...whatever his attacks is as a followup. If you dodge backwards but do it too late you'll eat SB (or HL's kick) but it will position you a little bit further and thus incoming attack will miss.


I think its more about a certain 'timing' that exists. Hard to explain, but I guess the most similar case would be the centurion's normal heavy-jab.

Cent's normal heavy-jab is a guaranteed hit, but there's a timing to it... when the jab command is input just as the heavy hits, then the next activating jab flows smoothly and lands before the target recovery ends... but if the jab command is a little bit late, while visually the speeds look similar, but the target can dodge and evade the jab.

I think the Highlander Fomkick->heavy might be similar, because I've had instances where the opponent would be pushed back a bit further than usual, and yet the next heavy advancing forward to catch up with (or "track") that movement to land on the target.

Draghmar
08-24-2017, 08:28 AM
I think its more about a certain 'timing' that exists. Hard to explain, but I guess the most similar case would be the centurion's normal heavy-jab.
Yes, that's also can be the case. This was the first thing I thought about where this issue could come from.
I though about mine after fighting against Conq last night when he SB me, I did dodge backwards but did it a little bit too late and he got to me. I thought I will eat his attacks but he was too far away. And I think the same think happened to me when I was playing HL - someone tried to dodge backwards when I initiate kick. It landed but following attacks didn't connect because of the distance.

Orran800
08-24-2017, 09:31 AM
Highlander looks nice and fun on paper. He may work on really low skill rating.
But when you get to higher SR you cant do much.

He is slow
He gets almost out of stamina from ONE parry
He is predictable and the only thing he can do really is faint game.
He deals low damage compared to his stamina cost, slow movement and swing speed.
He doesnt get more than a light from a parry.
His counter attack only works if ur in the right direction from the beginning. Meaning you cant swap guard stance and counter attack fast enough. Unless its a slow heavy.
He has low health compared to his slow and clunky moves.
Cable toss and kick is slow and easy to dodge and must be started from offensive stance which almost any character can light attack you out from before you even react


If you compare Gladiator and Highlander its like two different games.

Glad has everything
Dodge attack
Unblockable/unparryable fastest attack in game, aka toe stab.
Stun
Best zone attack in game
Deflect
Really fast lights AND heavy attacks.
Almost the same HP as highlander. 5Hp diff.
Best stamcost and stamregen in game


Everyone who says Highlander is fine have not tried him or is at low skill level.

Highlander really has nothing, which is sad cuz he looks bad ***.

Just play another character because he is really that weak

OneVikingArmy
08-24-2017, 10:00 AM
It seems to me that you want to make him better then balanced, which is the problem most people have in terms of their idea of balancing.
- don't see the reason for making damage higher.
- again don't see the reason for giving him more HP
- as above - stamin cost is ok as a thing for balance

- he is punishable after toss and that's fine - he should be to not make this move spam fest and use it in proper situations. After kick you can defend yourself.
- No it should not...no UB moves should actually do that

You sound like gladiator can that refuse any highlander fix as is being afraid of him :p

Of course I don't agree with you. What you wrote proves you didn't play this hero.

-HP has to be increased. He has only 5 hp more than gladiator which is better in almost every aspect
-stamina cost is too big. You didn't play this hero if you are saying it's fine...
-dmg could be increased as he is very slow but it's not a must. In fact i would increase lights by 2 points and top heavy only to 45 (which will not be guaranteed out of GB)
-saying that he can defend himself after kick is lying as he can do nothing at all. You can gb or hit him and he can't block or counter gb. Centurion after missed kick can hit light and his kick is much faster. This I assume highlander should have this possibility as well...

Regarding optional changes these are just suggestions but I can say that that would by too much indeed.

No offence,
Hub

Draghmar
08-24-2017, 10:12 AM
You sound like gladiator can that refuse any highlander fix as is being afraid of him :p

Of course I don't agree with you. What you wrote proves you didn't play this hero.

-HP has to be increased. He has only 5 hp more than gladiator which is better in almost every aspect
-stamina cost is too big. You didn't play this hero if you are saying it's fine...
-dmg could be increased as he is very slow but it's not a must. In fact i would increase lights by 2 points and top heavy only to 45 (which will not be guaranteed out of GB)
-saying that he can defend himself after kick is lying as he can do nothing at all. You can gb or hit him and he can't block or counter gb. Centurion after missed kick can hit light and his kick is much faster. This I assume highlander should have this possibility as well...

Regarding optional changes these are just suggestions but I can say that that would by too much indeed.

No offence,
Hub
Actually I play him on daily basis from the moment Season Pass unlocked him for me. I just don't think there is justification for buff only because other chars have something better - it could be that those chars need nefr instead.

- I don't have issue with HP. Maybe you were playing LB, Shugoki or Warlord before so you feel that way? My main is Nobushi and she also has 5HP less then HL so I'm used to that. ;)
- I don't find it too big at the moment. I find it is there to make me think before executing my moves. Maybe that will change in the future when more people will understand him but at the moment I like that his treating attacks can't be spammed (like some other classes :rolleyes:).
- He is not that slow...It can look that way but the fact is he is average in that matter.
- Funny that I could defend myself after my kick missed...And again - comparing him to the Cent this way only shows that it's Cent that needs balancing in this regard. Anyway maybe kick is punishable by some classes and by some it's not? Didn't have to much situation like this to make proper conclusion.

Remember that HL is not a heavy class, so he is not a tank. The fact I oppose buffing him already is because I don't like OP characters or some OP moves and I don't want HL to end up like that.

Orran800
08-24-2017, 10:17 AM
Highlander reminds me of the old raider.

Everything he does, the other classes can do it better than him.

He needs some kind of buff. He just feels way to weak.
Better stamina, slightly higher damage on a heavy, faster swap into offensive stance, faster kick/grab etc.

Please don't delay the buffs as long as you did with Raider...

Vordred
08-24-2017, 01:12 PM
well after a few days of playing the Highlander, here are my initial thoughts.

my first thing is how inconsistent his attacks are, it seems like he has tracking issues. had it many times after landing the kick he will just whiff the follow-up attack, even on the dash attack, sometimes instead of lunging at them, it acts more like no one is there are he does it almost on the spot.

next is the offensive stance, it takes too long to get into it. currently, even if you hold the button well doing an attack, there is still a delay after the attack well he goes into the stance, he should already be in the stance when that attack finishes, so you can actually combo some stuff together.

for a guy with the heaviest weapon in the game, his damage is pretty average, for a guy that is really slow, his health pool is pretty poor too, and of course, his stamina isn't that great either.

all in all, he just feels a bit off, and like he has more weakness than strengths.

also, his attacks are too slow to start up, he is very easy to GB before he can start an attack.

OneVikingArmy
08-24-2017, 03:07 PM
Actually I play him on daily basis from the moment Season Pass unlocked him for me. I just don't think there is justification for buff only because other chars have something better - it could be that those chars need nefr instead.

- I don't have issue with HP. Maybe you were playing LB, Shugoki or Warlord before so you feel that way? My main is Nobushi and she also has 5HP less then HL so I'm used to that. ;)
- I don't find it too big at the moment. I find it is there to make me think before executing my moves. Maybe that will change in the future when more people will understand him but at the moment I like that his treating attacks can't be spammed (like some other classes :rolleyes:).
- He is not that slow...It can look that way but the fact is he is average in that matter.
- Funny that I could defend myself after my kick missed...And again - comparing him to the Cent this way only shows that it's Cent that needs balancing in this regard. Anyway maybe kick is punishable by some classes and by some it's not? Didn't have to much situation like this to make proper conclusion.

Remember that HL is not a heavy class, so he is not a tank. The fact I oppose buffing him already is because I don't like OP characters or some OP moves and I don't want HL to end up like that.

I don`t think you are telling me the truth :) I thought you were playing gladiator every time i saw you but ok :)

Regarding HP, please tell me then why lawbringer has more HP than conq and warlord ? You can see the stats below for every hero.

I don`t believe either that you can defend yourself after a missed kick :) That clearly proves that you are not playing highlander but that`s not the case.
The thing is that significantly greater amount of players see that he is underpowered and he`s in the bottom tier right now with the bugs and stuff. I was watching Tru3Talent`s stream lately of him playing highlander and he is so right about that hero. First thing which is essential is fixing his bugs like GB, unable attacking out of the gb etc. The second is a very light buff. This is exactly what i think. This will not break this hero but it will make him to be in the mid tier and make him competitive.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/htmlview?sle=true#

kweassa1
08-24-2017, 03:31 PM
I don`t think you are telling me the truth :) I thought you were playing gladiator every time i saw you but ok :)

Regarding HP, please tell me then why lawbringer has more HP than conq and warlord ? You can see the stats below for every hero.

Dunno. Why is any hero setup with their current HP levels? It's a decision made by the devs, and while I'd certainly appreciate a bit more HP, he's still manageable with the current amount. He's only +5 more than 120 assassins? He's also only -5 less than the Warden.



I don`t believe either that you can defend yourself after a missed kick :) That clearly proves that you are not playing highlander but that`s not the case.

There are tactics involved with kick-cancel (1st proliferated to players by yours truly) that actually forces your opponent to dodge the kick, and then grab him with a Cabertoss. So it makes things a lot more complicated than just "oh the guy dodged the kick, I'm screwed" situation. And since you certainly didn't refrain from insulting someone else that simply disagrees with you, let me return the favor in kind that the fact that you don't know about this clearly tells me you've got no idea on how to handle a Highlander, therefore probably refrain from commenting on "balance".



The thing is that significantly greater amount of players see that he is underpowered and he`s in the bottom tier right now with the bugs and stuff. I was watching Tru3Talent`s stream lately of him playing highlander and he is so right about that hero. First thing which is essential is fixing his bugs like GB, unable attacking out of the gb etc. The second is a very light buff. This is exactly what i think. This will not break this hero but it will make him to be in the mid tier and make him competitive.

Luckily, PvP isn't democracy.

Besides, bugs are already acknowledged by the devs and a fix is under way, not to mention nobody in their right minds (except those condone it) ever counts in bugs into initial assessment in terms of combat performance. Was the Nobushi a overpowered class when it could still use the 1-shot kill bug? Is the Nobushi currently a top-tier class because allernakin showed us how he totally relied on nothing but bug abuse?

OneVikingArmy
08-24-2017, 04:05 PM
Dunno. Why is any hero setup with their current HP levels? It's a decision made by the devs, and while I'd certainly appreciate a bit more HP, he's still manageable with the current amount. He's only +5 more than 120 assassins? He's also only -5 less than the Warden.

Yes, but these numbers are not fixed. They can change it. That is the thing. The case with suggestion i that you can make one. You compare highlander with the warden... OK. But worden is a way faster and is considered as top tier hero. Highlander is considered to be low tier. Thus we are discussing fixes and buffs.





There are tactics involved with kick-cancel (1st proliferated to players by yours truly) that actually forces your opponent to dodge the kick, and then grab him with a Cabertoss. So it makes things a lot more complicated than just "oh the guy dodged the kick, I'm screwed" situation. And since you certainly didn't refrain from insulting someone else that simply disagrees with you, let me return the favor in kind that the fact that you don't know about this clearly tells me you've got no idea on how to handle a Highlander, therefore probably refrain from commenting on "balance".

Ok thx. I`m not standing for this light attack after kick so badly. It was just an option and suggestion that it would be nice.





Luckily, PvP isn't democracy.

Luckily? Ok! I am not the fan of democracy however i am a big fan of devs listenning the others.



Besides, bugs are already acknowledged by the devs and a fix is under way, not to mention nobody in their right minds (except those condone it) ever counts in bugs into initial assessment in terms of combat performance. Was the Nobushi a overpowered class when it could still use the 1-shot kill bug? Is the Nobushi currently a top-tier class because allernakin showed us how he totally relied on nothing but bug abuse?

Nobushi still is not top tier. I haven`t seen any nobushi exept Alernakin using this unlock tech and i can manage most of nobushis fighting with me. BTW Alernakin is a great player and he just took advantage of the unlock tech as it was allowed. I would do the same if i could fight nobushi and use this tech. If sb would forbid using unlock tech i`d be angry with the devs that allowed win him. Otherwise GG and good luck for him.

SenBotsu893
08-24-2017, 10:56 PM
I really don't care about your stats, if you use logic, you are welcome to give your opinion.

HL is trash atm, he does stupid low damage, is slow. He is totally worthless.
And has 5 more hp than gladiator LOL which is a bloody assassin.
HL seems ton of fun to use and mix up, but you know this game how it works.

hmm you say Highlander is trash but i remember you saying that kensei is fine. why?
same HP. similar speed. same range. if not farther with the celtic curse mix up.
HL has overall better damage than kensei. his celtic curse mix up is way faster than kenseis finsher mix up, has hyperarmor and dodgeframes. furthermore its actually a chain starter for HL.
he also has something that kensei completly lacks and that is a opener kick /kick cancel into grab/ grab in offensive stance.
lol even his Zone attack is better than Kenseis. more damge and it can actually hit someone in front of you.

Netcode_err_404
08-25-2017, 04:21 AM
hmm you say Highlander is trash but i remember you saying that kensei is fine. why?
same HP. similar speed. same range. if not farther with the celtic curse mix up.
HL has overall better damage than kensei. his celtic curse mix up is way faster than kenseis finsher mix up, has hyperarmor and dodgeframes. furthermore its actually a chain starter for HL.
he also has something that kensei completly lacks and that is a opener kick /kick cancel into grab/ grab in offensive stance.
lol even his Zone attack is better than Kenseis. more damge and it can actually hit someone in front of you.

HL gets parried every single time.
Kensei doesn't.


Both are balanced but in the current parry/block meta, they are garbage.


When they will finally decide to fix this game, both will be very strong. Until that moment, enjoy beeing parried most of the times by reactive turtles.

WHen ubisoft will decide that learning tparry timing =/= beeing a good player, this game will improve a lot.

Draghmar
08-25-2017, 08:31 AM
I don`t think you are telling me the truth :) I thought you were playing gladiator every time i saw you but ok :)
Cool story bro...It's great how you try to manipulate reality in order to shift focus on my credibility by trying to enforce suggestion about me lying and you just stating the truth...

OneVikingArmy
08-25-2017, 09:41 AM
Cool story bro...It's great how you try to manipulate reality in order to shift focus on my credibility by trying to enforce suggestion about me lying and you just stating the truth...

I'm not trying to do anything else than discuss. I just mentioned what I saw, that's all :)

WhiiiteP0wer
08-25-2017, 10:08 AM
His recovery is so bad :) I main raider which has poor recovery but can gb when dodging. highlander is a piece of ******** :)
All unblockable bashes, shoves, headbutts i can dodge and punish with a raider. Highlander can't punish warden, conq etc

Draghmar
08-25-2017, 10:13 AM
I'm not trying to do anything else than discuss. I just mentioned what I saw, that's all :)
So you're saying you were seeing me many times and most of those I was playing Gladiator?

OneVikingArmy
08-25-2017, 10:28 AM
So you're saying you were seeing me many times and most of those I was playing Gladiator?

Warden and gladiator :)

Draghmar
08-25-2017, 10:31 AM
Warden and gladiator :)
So you're either mistaken or try to troll here.
https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Draghmar/heroes

OneVikingArmy
08-25-2017, 10:34 AM
So you're either mistaken or try to troll here.
https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Draghmar/heroes

OK, I'm sorry. Giving honor back! :)
Nervertheles i am still standing for my ideas regarding Highlander. I respect your opinion though.

Netcode_err_404
08-25-2017, 10:59 AM
This guy is parried as soon as he moves a finger lol

Draghmar
08-25-2017, 11:02 AM
Parrying wouldn't be so much problem if meta changes would be here...

Netcode_err_404
08-25-2017, 11:05 AM
Parrying wouldn't be so much problem if meta changes would be here...

True but is also true that ptr changes were horrible

SenBotsu893
08-25-2017, 12:55 PM
IF HL Heavy gets parried its often very save for him too. i noticed that many characters cant land a gb on Highlander after they parry a Heavy attack since he is too far away.
so thats actually a pretty big advantage for him too.

Netcode_err_404
08-25-2017, 01:04 PM
IF HL Heavy gets parried its often very save for him too. i noticed that many characters cant land a gb on Highlander after they parry a Heavy attack since he is too far away.
so thats actually a pretty big advantage for him too.



The point is, he has no place in this game. Go fast or go home.


The only decent opener is the cancelled curse, that gets parried more and more each passing day.


This char is not tested at all. Believe me. They just put some ideas, and thats all.

Unless the meta changes HL is under the barrel.

GeneraISoIo
08-25-2017, 01:10 PM
Hey all, I'm loving the Highlander but a big thing I noticed with him is that I initiate the zone attack accidentally with him WAY too often. I don't have this problem with other players most likely due to not having to hold "RT"(Xbox) after attacks to switch to aggressive mode. When I do a light attack and then immediately go to hold "RT" for aggressive mode, it starts a zone instead. I am hitting "RB" and then "RT" too quickly and it is initiating zone attacks. This really sucks in 4v4 since I usually just end up hitting my own team mates more than the person I am attacking.

SenBotsu893
08-25-2017, 01:30 PM
The only decent opener is the cancelled curse, that gets parried more and more each passing day.
.

havent seen that happening on consoles. blocked yes. parried not yet.

at least he has a opener move unlike some of the vanilla fighters.

GeneraISoIo
08-25-2017, 04:47 PM
Highlanders unblockable grab has a very very small success rate. For real, almost useless. Not only can the enemy interrupt it but my team mates can interrupt it soooooooooo easily. If they plan on keeping this "unblockable" then I suggest they allow it to succeed more and to not be so interruptible. Again, this grab is almost always a waste of stamina. Please fix. I suggest at least don't allow team mates to be able to interrupt it. IT IS USELESS IN ITS CURRENT STATE!

Alustar.
08-25-2017, 06:38 PM
The point is, he has no place in this game. Go fast or go home.


The only decent opener is the cancelled curse, that gets parried more and more each passing day.


This char is not tested at all. Believe me. They just put some ideas, and thats all.

Unless the meta changes HL is under the barrel.

I've been blocked using it, but I have yet to be parried once. The reason people are likely getting parried is that they are ONLY using the cancel and ONLY coming from the same side.

Netcode_err_404
08-25-2017, 06:58 PM
I've been blocked using it, but I have yet to be parried once. The reason people are likely getting parried is that they are ONLY using the cancel and ONLY coming from the same side.

gets parried because parry is broken and HL is slow. Happens the same with shugoki. At least on pc. On console at 20 frames, well yeah MAY be harder.

Alustar.
08-25-2017, 07:30 PM
gets parried because parry is broken and HL is slow. Happens the same with shugoki. At least on pc. On console at 20 frames, well yeah MAY be harder.

Frames per second have no bearing on how fast a move comes out. A move executed at 500ms on PC will still be 500ms on console, the difference is the latency and connection methods for both send/receive are better on PC, thus increasing potential for accurate reactionary commands.

SenBotsu893
08-25-2017, 07:35 PM
Frames per second have no bearing on how fast a move comes out. A move executed at 500ms on PC will still be 500ms on console, the difference is the latency and connection methods for both send/receive are better on PC, thus increasing potential for accurate reactionary commands.

its the same p2p connection on pc as for consoles

but the frames are deffinetly different.
the move itself has the same timeframes yes but if your refreshrate is much higher you have it way easier to anticipate and counteract on moves.
there is a huge difference betweeen console 30 fps and pc 90-120 fps

Alustar.
08-25-2017, 08:35 PM
I tried

Netcode_err_404
08-26-2017, 12:17 AM
its the same p2p connection on pc as for consoles

but the frames are deffinetly different.
the move itself has the same timeframes yes but if your refreshrate is much higher you have it way easier to anticipate and counteract on moves.
there is a huge difference betweeen console 30 fps and pc 90-120 fps

on 120 fps its even easier landing parries, Im not gonna say its almost assured, but with practice it surely is easier.


HL on that matter is out of any competition, is too slow, his kit is garbage.


Said that, i think he is the funnier class in the game hands down, even funnier than kensei

Jedijrobbie
08-26-2017, 03:54 AM
Man this class makes me want to literally pull my hair out. I can't kill anyone in 4vs4. Literally everyone dodges my attacks or I get them low they run off and I'm too slow to give chase. Can't stay in OS in a team fight to save my life. Constantly knocked out of it by everyone swinging for the fences. I really want to like this guy but my god is he a lesson in frustration trying to play in 4vs4.

Netcode_err_404
08-26-2017, 04:34 AM
Man this class makes me want to literally pull my hair out. I can't kill anyone in 4vs4. Literally everyone dodges my attacks or I get them low they run off and I'm too slow to give chase. Can't stay in OS in a team fight to save my life. Constantly knocked out of it by everyone swinging for the fences. I really want to like this guy but my god is he a lesson in frustration trying to play in 4vs4.

in 4v4 is pretty much unplayable.

Alustar.
08-26-2017, 01:41 PM
in 4v4 is pretty much unplayable.
lol maybe by scrubby players.

Netcode_err_404
08-26-2017, 01:58 PM
lol maybe by scrubby players.


Scrubby players use pk wl and cent. Not HL.

Alustar.
08-26-2017, 02:17 PM
Scrubby players use pk wl and cent. Not HL.

You keep telling yourself whatever lie makes you sleep more comfortably at night.

Netcode_err_404
08-26-2017, 03:11 PM
You keep telling yourself whatever lie makes you sleep more comfortably at night.

My nights runs at 60 fps

Still can't wait to see you winning the next tourn,


You are too pro, HL is fine, Wl is fine, cent is fine, all is fine. Go ubisoft drone, go.

Alustar.
08-26-2017, 04:08 PM
My nights runs at 60 fps

Still can't wait to see you winning the next tourn,


You are too pro, HL is fine, Wl is fine, cent is fine, all is fine. Go ubisoft drone, go.

The insecurities are rampant through this post.

Netcode_err_404
08-26-2017, 04:27 PM
The insecurities are rampant through this post.

You speak like a pro, with low average stats.

Logic would suggest you to stop making look yourself stupid, if you had one.

Alustar.
08-26-2017, 05:59 PM
You speak like a pro, with low average stats.

Logic would suggest you to stop making look yourself stupid, if you had one.

I can't even with you anymore, dude. It's impossible to have any kind of meaningful discourse with you at any point. You are completely resistant to outside opinions and experiences that it actually cripples any kind of debate.
So have fun, I'll just start discussing these ideas with other likeminded individuals. Because clearly all you want to do is flame people who's opinions differ from yours.

Netcode_err_404
08-26-2017, 06:14 PM
I can't even with you anymore, dude. It's impossible to have any kind of meaningful discourse with you at any point. You are completely resistant to outside opinions and experiences that it actually cripples any kind of debate.
So have fun, I'll just start discussing these ideas with other likeminded individuals. Because clearly all you want to do is flame people who's opinions differ from yours.


You do not have opinions, every time theres a class discussion you come and be the git gud guy. You are not right, never been. Every time you discuss about a class or a server state, you get demolished. by pretty much all.


Stop replying me. You are annoying as ****,

Come bach defendng cents claiming he is fine and stfu.

Alustar.
08-26-2017, 06:52 PM
So back on topic about Highlander, is there any word on when the new heros will Be getting a few new executions?

Knight_Raime
08-26-2017, 07:18 PM
From testing done last night it doesn't seem like the ability to parry highlanders unblockables after a kick or cabers toss is consistent.
We had discovered quite early on that assassins were able to parry those attacks. However last night I had gone to do some more testing since someone had made the claim that an unblockable top heavy after a kick is always guaranteed.

I took it a step further and tested the unblockable from all directions both off of a kick and the caber toss. I couldn't parry any of it consistently. And my friend who's better at parrying in general situations couldn't parry it at all. We tested and tried our timings on when we buffered the attack. We tested the distance between us (max range of the kick/toss and up close) and we also tested if it might have been a hero specific thing (PK, orochi.) And we couldn't find any consistency on when I could and could not parry.

So our only logical assumption we came to was that time snaps removal is to blame. Only connection seems to make sense here. Neither of us were lagging or having an easy visual tells for a match with normal latency problems as well. Which isn't new in for honor. You don't really need that to know when connection is screwing you.

SpaceJim12
08-26-2017, 09:17 PM
180 lvl gear on Highlander.
Spam fint attack, than kick-heavy, kick-heavy until death. Why you use stamina system to balance and destroy it with gear stats? Old chars useless against new ones

Alustar.
08-27-2017, 12:23 AM
From testing done last night it doesn't seem like the ability to parry highlanders unblockables after a kick or cabers toss is consistent.
We had discovered quite early on that assassins were able to parry those attacks. However last night I had gone to do some more testing since someone had made the claim that an unblockable top heavy after a kick is always guaranteed.

I took it a step further and tested the unblockable from all directions both off of a kick and the caber toss. I couldn't parry any of it consistently. And my friend who's better at parrying in general situations couldn't parry it at all. We tested and tried our timings on when we buffered the attack. We tested the distance between us (max range of the kick/toss and up close) and we also tested if it might have been a hero specific thing (PK, orochi.) And we couldn't find any consistency on when I could and could not parry.

So our only logical assumption we came to was that time snaps removal is to blame. Only connection seems to make sense here. Neither of us were lagging or having an easy visual tells for a match with normal latency problems as well. Which isn't new in for honor. You don't really need that to know when connection is screwing you.

Are you talking about parrying a HL or a HL's ability to parry? I've found it's not as easy parrying with him due to the time on hold for it to read as a switch to OS instead of initiating a heavy swing

kweassa1
08-27-2017, 02:02 AM
Are you talking about parrying a HL or a HL's ability to parry? I've found it's not as easy parrying with him due to the time on hold for it to read as a switch to OS instead of initiating a heavy swing

He's talking about the situation where a HL connects a Fomkick, or throws someone down with CabToss... and then proceeds on to a (seemingly) guaranteed combo of UB heavy (@OF). A lv3 assassin BOT, for example, parries the UB heavy around 1/3rd of the time. IMO this is something that's got to do with the HL's front end.. my guesses being stuff like maintaining OF after the Fomkick/CabToss, or perhaps directional switching.... so I generally try to maintain OF by not releasing the right button throughout Fomkick or Cabtoss, and then releasing for the UB heavy... and not switch around directions.

Cureently, there seems to be two ways to retain Offensive Form after a Fomkick or a Cab Toss. First way is to do it "by the book" and keep on pressing down the heavy button throughout the FomKick/CabToss move.. in which case you will notice after the kick/toss your HL retains the OF stance. The second way to do it, is if you've removed your finger from the heavy attack button for whatever reason, after the Fomkick or CabToss you can just keep tapping the heavy button, and then you see the HL do that "moving into OF glow" without doing the "Dun ma glats!" motion/dialogue. I'm guessing this is sort of a "shortened" form of moving into OF for some amount of leniency with input mistakes.

To sum it up:

Two different ways of "maintaining" OF after a prior skill from OF

1. keep holding down the heavy attack button throughout the entire move
= Result: after the move, the HL's posture after recovery time is over is in OF

2. after the move, tap heavy attack button again and hold it
= Result: after the move, during the recovery time the HL shows off the "glow" that indicates he went into OF, but without the motion/dialogue.


My theory is that perhaps the latter is maybe a couple hundred milliseconds slower than the former.

Rahnzan
08-27-2017, 03:25 AM
1) +25 HP
2) Hyper Armor at Heavy startup not midway through the swing.

125 is low for Vanguard health, 5 more than an assassin. He's a Hybrid Vanguard/Heavy right? Lawbringer is a Vanguard/Heavy and he has 170 hp and runs faster.

kweassa1
08-27-2017, 06:03 AM
After around two weeks of experimentation I think I'm finally ready to give my statement for the betterment of this class. Most of these suggestions are aimed at QOL(quality of life) fixes which will mildly address some of the problems the HL is suffering against what I guess to be the developer's "intentions" -- so it will not address (what I view to be) fundamental limitations as designed and intended by the devs.



1. UI on heavies need to be applied sooner

UI protection for HL heavy attacks (or "super/hyper armor") needs to be applied sooner. Of the two comparable classes, the Shugoki wields an even slower heavy attack (@1,100ms) but is fully protected throughout the entire duration as long as Shug's UI shield is on. In case of the Warlord, his heavy attacks are unprotected during the start-up sequence, but he also wields a much faster heavy attack (800ms top, 900ms side).

In comparison, the Highlander heavy combines the worst properties of the Shug and WL's heavies.:
- HL heavies are unprotected at the start up sequence, like the Warlord
- HL heavies are clocked in at 1,000ms for both top and sides, almost as slow as the Shug's

Therefore, the end result is that the HL's heavies are protected during activation, but because it is almost as slow as the Shug's heavies, the UI phase of the heavy attack comes out proportionately later than the Warlord's. Through his higher HP than most classes and average speed of heavy attacks, Warlord's heavies are a very useful tool for trading damage. In comparison the HL is more limited due to having relatively low HP... and twice penalized due to being so slow.

I recommend the UI phase of the heavy attacks to be activated around similar timing as the Warlord's heavies.



2. OF lights

As people grow more accustomed to facing a HL, it is becoming increasingly difficult to straight-up land key initiators such as Fomorian kick or Caber toss. Especially difficult is when pitted against assassins equipped with dodge-attacks and quick/fast dodges that can be still spammed (thanks to meta-fix not being included with season 3 :rolleyes:). The more difficult it becomes to use major attacks during OF, the more important the OF light attack becomes... as it is seemingly becoming the "salt and light" for offensive patterns in OF for the HL.

The problem is...

- for a light attack, the stamina cost is insanely high. Approximately 4 uses @default stats is enough to run the stamina dry
- HL's light attacks are already pretty average in damage @15 per hit. OF light damage is slashed down to 10.
- The reach -- or rather "forward momentum" -- of the skill is too short.

I'd like to suggest one of the following:

(a) Keep the current weak damage, short reach as it is -- and lower the stamina cost by half, allowing for approximately 8 uses.
(b) Keep the current stamina cost as it is -- and increase damage to around 15~20, increase the reach, and add a stun effect

Either (a) or (b) would be GREATLY satisfactory. If the devs would go with (a) it would be a very nifty and useful light attack that would go a lot in making up for the shortcomings of OF, particularly providing the HL with a quick "jab" of an attack that could be used more freely to initiate mixups. (b) would also be a most excellent addition which many Highlander players would greatly welcome -- it would justify the high stamina cost with at least average level of damage, and bring in a very useful stun-daze effect for the HL to wield. For a class that's already being ridiculed "easiest to parry", a vision-impairing quick attack like OF would be just awesome to have. Compared to the ridiculous amount of stamina the Gladiator has and how he can easily spam his MA all around at any timing he wants, I don't think asking for a 15~20 damage light attack that stun-dazes, that comes only out in OF (no blocks, parries, or CGBs) and costs 1/4th stamina per pop is an unreasonable request.



3. A teensey bit more HP

Pretty much self explanatory. Let's add in +15 for 140 HP, same as Conq and Warlord levels.



4. Celtic Curse on dodges

Celtic Curse activation on left and right dodges... in addition to the standard front dash-heavy. No change to the skill itself, just allow the activation of Celtic Curse from any dodge movement except rearward backstep. This alone would greatly enhance the efficiency and intimidation factor of the HL kit and make him slightly less predictable.



5. uninterrupted lights

Re-iterate the "Uninterrupted Lights" trait, so it applies as a general trait as a Highlander, applying to both OF and DF, instead of just exclusively on OF lights. Just how much a class can benefit from the "uninterrupted light attack" trait can be attested by the Shugoki. If the Shugoki didn't have that trait, it would have been total trash. However just being able to force a light block and then still being able to proceed to combos adds a LOT to his tactics, especially in the field of the feint-game.



Honestly, these 5 changes to the Highlander, and I don't need any other change is necessary for other weaknesses he has.

Vakris_One
08-27-2017, 02:28 PM
After around two weeks of experimentation I think I'm finally ready to give my statement for the betterment of this class. Most of these suggestions are aimed at QOL(quality of life) fixes which will mildly address some of the problems the HL is suffering against what I guess to be the developer's "intentions" -- so it will not address (what I view to be) fundamental limitations as designed and intended by the devs.



1. UI on heavies need to be applied sooner

UI protection for HL heavy attacks (or "super/hyper armor") needs to be applied sooner. Of the two comparable classes, the Shugoki wields an even slower heavy attack (@1,100ms) but is fully protected throughout the entire duration as long as Shug's UI shield is on. In case of the Warlord, his heavy attacks are unprotected during the start-up sequence, but he also wields a much faster heavy attack (800ms top, 900ms side).

In comparison, the Highlander heavy combines the worst properties of the Shug and WL's heavies.:
- HL heavies are unprotected at the start up sequence, like the Warlord
- HL heavies are clocked in at 1,000ms for both top and sides, almost as slow as the Shug's

Therefore, the end result is that the HL's heavies are protected during activation, but because it is almost as slow as the Shug's heavies, the UI phase of the heavy attack comes out proportionately later than the Warlord's. Through his higher HP than most classes and average speed of heavy attacks, Warlord's heavies are a very useful tool for trading damage. In comparison the HL is more limited due to having relatively low HP... and twice penalized due to being so slow.

I recommend the UI phase of the heavy attacks to be activated around similar timing as the Warlord's heavies.



2. OF lights

As people grow more accustomed to facing a HL, it is becoming increasingly difficult to straight-up land key initiators such as Fomorian kick or Caber toss. Especially difficult is when pitted against assassins equipped with dodge-attacks and quick/fast dodges that can be still spammed (thanks to meta-fix not being included with season 3 :rolleyes:). The more difficult it becomes to use major attacks during OF, the more important the OF light attack becomes... as it is seemingly becoming the "salt and light" for offensive patterns in OF for the HL.

The problem is...

- for a light attack, the stamina cost is insanely high. Approximately 4 uses @default stats is enough to run the stamina dry
- HL's light attacks are already pretty average in damage @15 per hit. OF light damage is slashed down to 10.
- The reach -- or rather "forward momentum" -- of the skill is too short.

I'd like to suggest one of the following:

(a) Keep the current weak damage, short reach as it is -- and lower the stamina cost by half, allowing for approximately 8 uses.
(b) Keep the current stamina cost as it is -- and increase damage to around 15~20, increase the reach, and add a stun effect

Either (a) or (b) would be GREATLY satisfactory. If the devs would go with (a) it would be a very nifty and useful light attack that would go a lot in making up for the shortcomings of OF, particularly providing the HL with a quick "jab" of an attack that could be used more freely to initiate mixups. (b) would also be a most excellent addition which many Highlander players would greatly welcome -- it would justify the high stamina cost with at least average level of damage, and bring in a very useful stun-daze effect for the HL to wield. For a class that's already being ridiculed "easiest to parry", a vision-impairing quick attack like OF would be just awesome to have. Compared to the ridiculous amount of stamina the Gladiator has and how he can easily spam his MA all around at any timing he wants, I don't think asking for a 15~20 damage light attack that stun-dazes, that comes only out in OF (no blocks, parries, or CGBs) and costs 1/4th stamina per pop is an unreasonable request.



3. A teensey bit more HP

Pretty much self explanatory. Let's add in +15 for 140 HP, same as Conq and Warlord levels.



4. Celtic Curse on dodges

Celtic Curse activation on left and right dodges... in addition to the standard front dash-heavy. No change to the skill itself, just allow the activation of Celtic Curse from any dodge movement except rearward backstep. This alone would greatly enhance the efficiency and intimidation factor of the HL kit and make him slightly less predictable.



5. uninterrupted lights

Re-iterate the "Uninterrupted Lights" trait, so it applies as a general trait as a Highlander, applying to both OF and DF, instead of just exclusively on OF lights. Just how much a class can benefit from the "uninterrupted light attack" trait can be attested by the Shugoki. If the Shugoki didn't have that trait, it would have been total trash. However just being able to force a light block and then still being able to proceed to combos adds a LOT to his tactics, especially in the field of the feint-game.



Honestly, these 5 changes to the Highlander, and I don't need any other change is necessary for other weaknesses he has.
These are all pretty good changes in my opinion that would flesh out the Highlander into what I am assuming the devs intended him to be.

The only thing I would add is a couple of bug fixes such as:
- Allow him to hit his side heavies from a GB as this feels broken. Unless the intention from the devs is for him to be like this?

- Fix the tracking on Highlander's zone attack and dash heavy attack against minions. Both are very inconsistent in that they tend to veer off wildly and away from minions after the first hit.

- Fix the collision detection on the Highlander's sword against minions so that it doesn't phase through minions. His reach against minions should be roughly similiar to the Kensei.

Vordred
08-27-2017, 05:49 PM
After around two weeks of experimentation I think I'm finally ready to give my statement for the betterment of this class. Most of these suggestions are aimed at QOL(quality of life) fixes which will mildly address some of the problems the HL is suffering against what I guess to be the developer's "intentions" -- so it will not address (what I view to be) fundamental limitations as designed and intended by the devs.



1. UI on heavies need to be applied sooner

UI protection for HL heavy attacks (or "super/hyper armor") needs to be applied sooner. Of the two comparable classes, the Shugoki wields an even slower heavy attack (@1,100ms) but is fully protected throughout the entire duration as long as Shug's UI shield is on. In case of the Warlord, his heavy attacks are unprotected during the start-up sequence, but he also wields a much faster heavy attack (800ms top, 900ms side).

In comparison, the Highlander heavy combines the worst properties of the Shug and WL's heavies.:
- HL heavies are unprotected at the start up sequence, like the Warlord
- HL heavies are clocked in at 1,000ms for both top and sides, almost as slow as the Shug's

Therefore, the end result is that the HL's heavies are protected during activation, but because it is almost as slow as the Shug's heavies, the UI phase of the heavy attack comes out proportionately later than the Warlord's. Through his higher HP than most classes and average speed of heavy attacks, Warlord's heavies are a very useful tool for trading damage. In comparison the HL is more limited due to having relatively low HP... and twice penalized due to being so slow.

I recommend the UI phase of the heavy attacks to be activated around similar timing as the Warlord's heavies.



2. OF lights

As people grow more accustomed to facing a HL, it is becoming increasingly difficult to straight-up land key initiators such as Fomorian kick or Caber toss. Especially difficult is when pitted against assassins equipped with dodge-attacks and quick/fast dodges that can be still spammed (thanks to meta-fix not being included with season 3 :rolleyes:). The more difficult it becomes to use major attacks during OF, the more important the OF light attack becomes... as it is seemingly becoming the "salt and light" for offensive patterns in OF for the HL.

The problem is...

- for a light attack, the stamina cost is insanely high. Approximately 4 uses @default stats is enough to run the stamina dry
- HL's light attacks are already pretty average in damage @15 per hit. OF light damage is slashed down to 10.
- The reach -- or rather "forward momentum" -- of the skill is too short.

I'd like to suggest one of the following:

(a) Keep the current weak damage, short reach as it is -- and lower the stamina cost by half, allowing for approximately 8 uses.
(b) Keep the current stamina cost as it is -- and increase damage to around 15~20, increase the reach, and add a stun effect

Either (a) or (b) would be GREATLY satisfactory. If the devs would go with (a) it would be a very nifty and useful light attack that would go a lot in making up for the shortcomings of OF, particularly providing the HL with a quick "jab" of an attack that could be used more freely to initiate mixups. (b) would also be a most excellent addition which many Highlander players would greatly welcome -- it would justify the high stamina cost with at least average level of damage, and bring in a very useful stun-daze effect for the HL to wield. For a class that's already being ridiculed "easiest to parry", a vision-impairing quick attack like OF would be just awesome to have. Compared to the ridiculous amount of stamina the Gladiator has and how he can easily spam his MA all around at any timing he wants, I don't think asking for a 15~20 damage light attack that stun-dazes, that comes only out in OF (no blocks, parries, or CGBs) and costs 1/4th stamina per pop is an unreasonable request.



3. A teensey bit more HP

Pretty much self explanatory. Let's add in +15 for 140 HP, same as Conq and Warlord levels.



4. Celtic Curse on dodges

Celtic Curse activation on left and right dodges... in addition to the standard front dash-heavy. No change to the skill itself, just allow the activation of Celtic Curse from any dodge movement except rearward backstep. This alone would greatly enhance the efficiency and intimidation factor of the HL kit and make him slightly less predictable.



5. uninterrupted lights

Re-iterate the "Uninterrupted Lights" trait, so it applies as a general trait as a Highlander, applying to both OF and DF, instead of just exclusively on OF lights. Just how much a class can benefit from the "uninterrupted light attack" trait can be attested by the Shugoki. If the Shugoki didn't have that trait, it would have been total trash. However just being able to force a light block and then still being able to proceed to combos adds a LOT to his tactics, especially in the field of the feint-game.



Honestly, these 5 changes to the Highlander, and I don't need any other change is necessary for other weaknesses he has.

good changes, i would agree with them.

and long with bug fixes. and sort out his tracking, would put him in a much better place.

Iai8
08-27-2017, 07:42 PM
Anyone else had their grab or kick deflected at the last second? I've noticed this with a few characters, they're able to dodge AS I hit the grab, as my hand touches them, and it acts as a deflect. Zerker in particular I see this with. Again, not dodging the grab, they're dodging after it should have hit and getting a deflect.

i K33L n0085
08-27-2017, 07:52 PM
First off, I love the look and playstyle of this character, he is incredibly fun to use and I will be maining him no matter how underpowered he is.

That said, he is extremely underpowered. I can't win a single dual with him. He has the speed of a shugoki, but none of his damage and health to make up for it. Seriously, what is the point of a character that specializes in trading hits and loses trades. Look at the guy, he's a big *** viking with a massive sword, he should have as much health as warlord, and do as much damage as shugoki. As of now, his sword is practically made of foam. This is the main problem with him, but there is more. His guardbreak distance on parries needs to be fixed, so he doesn't have the range of t-rex arms. He also needs a serious boost to stamina, or a serious reduction in stamina cost. By the time my opponent is on the floor, I can only do one heavy and then they can punish my exhaustion for what seems like an eternity. Especially that damn gladiator (Stop stabbing my toes!).

Anyway, that's really all he needs. No changes to the moveset, just some stat buffs. Easy fix right? Just change some numbers and release a patch.
I'll be playing AIs until then.

Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 12:24 AM
Are you talking about parrying a HL or a HL's ability to parry? I've found it's not as easy parrying with him due to the time on hold for it to read as a switch to OS instead of initiating a heavy swing

Talking about parrying the highlanders UB heavy after a kick or caber toss has landed.
I cant consistently parry them as an assassin despite trying every variable I can think of.

Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 12:30 AM
After around two weeks of experimentation I think I'm finally ready to give my statement for the betterment of this class. Most of these suggestions are aimed at QOL(quality of life) fixes which will mildly address some of the problems the HL is suffering against what I guess to be the developer's "intentions" -- so it will not address (what I view to be) fundamental limitations as designed and intended by the devs.



1. UI on heavies need to be applied sooner

UI protection for HL heavy attacks (or "super/hyper armor") needs to be applied sooner. Of the two comparable classes, the Shugoki wields an even slower heavy attack (@1,100ms) but is fully protected throughout the entire duration as long as Shug's UI shield is on. In case of the Warlord, his heavy attacks are unprotected during the start-up sequence, but he also wields a much faster heavy attack (800ms top, 900ms side).

In comparison, the Highlander heavy combines the worst properties of the Shug and WL's heavies.:
- HL heavies are unprotected at the start up sequence, like the Warlord
- HL heavies are clocked in at 1,000ms for both top and sides, almost as slow as the Shug's

Therefore, the end result is that the HL's heavies are protected during activation, but because it is almost as slow as the Shug's heavies, the UI phase of the heavy attack comes out proportionately later than the Warlord's. Through his higher HP than most classes and average speed of heavy attacks, Warlord's heavies are a very useful tool for trading damage. In comparison the HL is more limited due to having relatively low HP... and twice penalized due to being so slow.

I recommend the UI phase of the heavy attacks to be activated around similar timing as the Warlord's heavies.



2. OF lights

As people grow more accustomed to facing a HL, it is becoming increasingly difficult to straight-up land key initiators such as Fomorian kick or Caber toss. Especially difficult is when pitted against assassins equipped with dodge-attacks and quick/fast dodges that can be still spammed (thanks to meta-fix not being included with season 3 :rolleyes:). The more difficult it becomes to use major attacks during OF, the more important the OF light attack becomes... as it is seemingly becoming the "salt and light" for offensive patterns in OF for the HL.

The problem is...

- for a light attack, the stamina cost is insanely high. Approximately 4 uses @default stats is enough to run the stamina dry
- HL's light attacks are already pretty average in damage @15 per hit. OF light damage is slashed down to 10.
- The reach -- or rather "forward momentum" -- of the skill is too short.

I'd like to suggest one of the following:

(a) Keep the current weak damage, short reach as it is -- and lower the stamina cost by half, allowing for approximately 8 uses.
(b) Keep the current stamina cost as it is -- and increase damage to around 15~20, increase the reach, and add a stun effect

Either (a) or (b) would be GREATLY satisfactory. If the devs would go with (a) it would be a very nifty and useful light attack that would go a lot in making up for the shortcomings of OF, particularly providing the HL with a quick "jab" of an attack that could be used more freely to initiate mixups. (b) would also be a most excellent addition which many Highlander players would greatly welcome -- it would justify the high stamina cost with at least average level of damage, and bring in a very useful stun-daze effect for the HL to wield. For a class that's already being ridiculed "easiest to parry", a vision-impairing quick attack like OF would be just awesome to have. Compared to the ridiculous amount of stamina the Gladiator has and how he can easily spam his MA all around at any timing he wants, I don't think asking for a 15~20 damage light attack that stun-dazes, that comes only out in OF (no blocks, parries, or CGBs) and costs 1/4th stamina per pop is an unreasonable request.



3. A teensey bit more HP

Pretty much self explanatory. Let's add in +15 for 140 HP, same as Conq and Warlord levels.



4. Celtic Curse on dodges

Celtic Curse activation on left and right dodges... in addition to the standard front dash-heavy. No change to the skill itself, just allow the activation of Celtic Curse from any dodge movement except rearward backstep. This alone would greatly enhance the efficiency and intimidation factor of the HL kit and make him slightly less predictable.



5. uninterrupted lights

Re-iterate the "Uninterrupted Lights" trait, so it applies as a general trait as a Highlander, applying to both OF and DF, instead of just exclusively on OF lights. Just how much a class can benefit from the "uninterrupted light attack" trait can be attested by the Shugoki. If the Shugoki didn't have that trait, it would have been total trash. However just being able to force a light block and then still being able to proceed to combos adds a LOT to his tactics, especially in the field of the feint-game.



Honestly, these 5 changes to the Highlander, and I don't need any other change is necessary for other weaknesses he has.

1) Considering he can't be GBed off of his heavy being parried and the second heavy is pretty fast as is I don't see the point in making the armor come sooner. He's not really built to trade like goki or warlord. It's a niche thing he can do.

2) I'm fine with this.

3) would be needed if we wanted to push him down the route of trading. For which I do not. I think trading is a stupid thing to have in a game like this but i'm biased.

4) fine with this.

5)) I don't see the point. It doesn't do really anything for you in OF from what i've seen since OF lights are basically enders. and his defensive form lights already have crushing counter. and you can fast flow even on a whiff. So I don't think this buff is needed. but i'm not against it.

I'd like to add that I feel the delay on toss should go away, no stamina cost on leaving OF, and reduced stamina cost for everything in OF.

kweassa1
08-28-2017, 03:29 AM
Talking about parrying the highlanders UB heavy after a kick or caber toss has landed.
I cant consistently parry them as an assassin despite trying every variable I can think of.

Which is why I'm guessing whatever makes this happen or not happen, is probably on the HL's front end.

Alustar.
08-28-2017, 04:14 AM
Which is why I'm guessing whatever makes this happen or not happen, is probably on the HL's front end.

I see I get parried more frequently with consecutive OS heavies. I think this is probably an important thing to note as the first in the chain has the transition tobstance before execution, maybe that is causing some of the inconsistencies?

nufrancis
08-28-2017, 07:22 AM
Rep 2 HL here, overall rep 39.

My Thought so far that he is one of the weakest hero in FH. On par with Kensei and Goki.

Vs Low to Middle skilled players still viable, but not with high skilled players.

His problems are:
1.No good punish. Im not discussing the details because I believe you all know his punish option

2.Very slow attack. Very easy to dodge and parry. His UB is very2 dodgeable. Even after feint his attack still very slow. I mean heavy feint to light.. Only the OF light is fast and this attack pretty much useless.

3.HL even worse than Kensei in mind game. Please give Celtic mix up option to hard feint (cancelling attack). Before and after spin if possible.

Tips for Noobs: If you scared or confused how to counter his Celtic mix up just dodge it. Better than try to parry it. Yeah Celtic mix up is fast and the 2nd part of the chain even faster but its very easy to dodge if you know the timing. Dodge when he start spinning, not when he lift up the sword, also dont forget to dodge the 2nd attack. After that free GB.


He is very cool hero, fun to use, but he is in a very sorry state now.

Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 08:05 AM
Which is why I'm guessing whatever makes this happen or not happen, is probably on the HL's front end.

As in you believe something is wrong with highlander and not time snap like i think?
Because I tried several different release times on the OF heavy from all directions after landing a kick or toss.

Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 08:11 AM
Rep 2 HL here, overall rep 39.

My Thought so far that he is one of the weakest hero in FH. On par with Kensei and Goki.

Vs Low to Middle skilled players still viable, but not with high skilled players.

His problems are:
1.No good punish. Im not discussing the details because I believe you all know his punish option

2.Very slow attack. Very easy to dodge and parry. His UB is very2 dodgeable. Even after feint his attack still very slow. I mean heavy feint to light.. Only the OF light is fast and this attack pretty much useless.

3.HL even worse than Kensei in mind game. Please give Celtic mix up option to hard feint (cancelling attack). Before and after spin if possible.

Tips for Noobs: If you scared or confused how to counter his Celtic mix up just dodge it. Better than try to parry it. Yeah Celtic mix up is fast and the 2nd part of the chain even faster but its very easy to dodge if you know the timing. Dodge when he start spinning, not when he lift up the sword, also dont forget to dodge the 2nd attack. After that free GB.


He is very cool hero, fun to use, but he is in a very sorry state now.

He is no where near as bad as kensei or goki.

1) no good punish? What to you is a punish? parrying? I would agree that compared to certain hero's who have insane damage on a punish sure. But I wouldn't mark those as standard for comparison.

2) most of what can be dodged can be feinted into something else.

3) No. Because kensei mix ups always go into top attack for helm splitter. since all of HL's mix up options are good he's not factually worse than kensei in mix up game.

Dodging only works if you know it's coming. The celtic curse mix up tracks people who dodge at the wrong time. and because it can be delayed that makes it difficult to judge when to dodge.
is it possible to read? yes. But it's not easy to react consistently to it. The safest option everytime is to stand and block. Not dodge.

he's very far from being in a sorry state. it's more that he plays vastly different. and exists in a meta that isn't kind to him. Design wise he's nearly perfect. I don't think he should be buffed to the moon just so they can change him a few months again down the line when the defensive meta patches are fully out.

kweassa1
08-28-2017, 08:17 AM
As in you believe something is wrong with highlander and not time snap like i think?
Because I tried several different release times on the OF heavy from all directions after landing a kick or toss.

As of current the only reason I can think of is a very "occam's razor"-ish one... that simply, the instances where the UB heavy was parried, was simply because it was late.

IMO the window of opportunity is probably very tight, and as long as the activation of the UBhvy is prompt it would always land, but for whatever reason the activation be maybe couple hundred milliseconds late, it gets parried on the earliest recovery time possible -- as in assassins.


Otherwise, there might be circumstances where targets hit by CCs recover faster than they normallty should -- which might be some sort of yet undiscovered glitch.

kweassa1
08-28-2017, 08:23 AM
He is no where near as bad as kensei or goki.

1) no good punish? What to you is a punish? parrying? I would agree that compared to certain hero's who have insane damage on a punish sure. But I wouldn't mark those as standard for comparison.

2) most of what can be dodged can be feinted into something else.

3) No. Because kensei mix ups always go into top attack for helm splitter. since all of HL's mix up options are good he's not factually worse than kensei in mix up game.

Dodging only works if you know it's coming. The celtic curse mix up tracks people who dodge at the wrong time. and because it can be delayed that makes it difficult to judge when to dodge.
is it possible to read? yes. But it's not easy to react consistently to it. The safest option everytime is to stand and block. Not dodge.

he's very far from being in a sorry state. it's more that he plays vastly different. and exists in a meta that isn't kind to him. Design wise he's nearly perfect. I don't think he should be buffed to the moon just so they can change him a few months again down the line when the defensive meta patches are fully out.

I agree. The pure number of different options the HL has in varying situations is enough to make him much better than the Kensei, or the Shugoki.

But undoubtedly his "limitations" would be that design-wise, he is almost totally devoid of "strong guaranteed attacks" -- even if we rule out the bug/glitch associated with parry-GB. At this moment I can only assume that this is intentional, and it was a conscious design choice on the part of the devs to distance itself from conventional designs that relied so much on "linear and mecanical" "guaranteed combo situations".

This is why I rate the Highlander as a "very notable and creative design choice" on the part of the devs, regardless of how strong or weak he is.

Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 08:25 AM
As of current the only reason I can think of is a very "occam's razor"-ish one... that simply, the instances where the UB heavy was parried, was simply because it was late.

IMO the window of opportunity is probably very tight, and as long as the activation of the UBhvy is prompt it would always land, but for whatever reason the activation be maybe couple hundred milliseconds late, it gets parried on the earliest recovery time possible -- as in assassins.


Otherwise, there might be circumstances where targets hit by CCs recover faster than they normallty should -- which might be some sort of yet undiscovered glitch.

I don't see why you would believe that either I or my sparring partner is not doing the timing right. I've done what I believe is the proper timing that being letting go of the heavy button the moment my kick connects or the moment the camera starts pulling back from me tossing them to the ground. The attack is already buffered to be let out. So it's coming out as soon as possible.

If it turns out I have to be not buffering the attack in order to land it guaranteed then that should be treated as a bug and fixed.
In my opinion time snap being gone makes more sense because the indicator is clearly giving me the window in which I should be attempting the parry. And my heavy even goes off some what. But it doesn't parry it.

It just seems more like an indicator problem than a user error problem. Which points to time snap.
unless you know when I should be throwing it out. then please tell me. Because i've been bothered ever sense I found this. and I just can't let it go.

kweassa1
08-28-2017, 08:50 AM
I guess its more of a general distrust towards any explanation that involves 'time snap', since way too many people have been uttering that as if its some sort of an omnipresent boogieman behind whatever oddities they see in the game. So I'd rather find a more direct and simpler explanation.

I'm not saying it's not time snap. It could very well be. I'm just not too comfortable with the amount of knowledge the community has on just how timesnap affects the game.

Knight_Raime
08-28-2017, 11:20 AM
I guess its more of a general distrust towards any explanation that involves 'time snap', since way too many people have been uttering that as if its some sort of an omnipresent boogieman behind whatever oddities they see in the game. So I'd rather find a more direct and simpler explanation.

I'm not saying it's not time snap. It could very well be. I'm just not too comfortable with the amount of knowledge the community has on just how timesnap affects the game.

Understandable. No idea when this will reach you but I just spent over an hour against a level 3 highlander with no damage, 10 min rounds, and 99 rounds. You were half right. It was timing. Not on the highlanders end though. Mine. The parry timing is stupidly STUPIDLY hard. I was playing as orochi.

On caber toss if he is attempting to do an unblockable heavy from either side I have to initiate my button press for parrying at the very end of my recover animation. Which looks like i'm almost back on my feet again. However if he goes to do an unblockable top heavy the timing is waaaaay different. I have to initiate my button press for parrying when i'm either half way or a little over half way through my handstand flip recovery animation.
I literally could not find the timing for parrying off of his kick. I was only ever able to parry a top heavy from kick once and that was when my friend was playing as highlander during our tests.
Couldn't do it with the bot nor the side heavies from kick.

Essentially my tip for parrying off of being tossed is to pay attention to your recovery animation and not the indicators or highlanders animations. You're parrying late ish almost on reaction with side heavies off of caber toss. But with top heavy you're parrying early. From what I can tell from looking at frame by frame on both caber toss and the kick it seems to be the same for kick. In that you wana parry at the end on the side heavies but early on the top heavy. However I personally was never able to parry it.

If i'm being honest I don't think it's possible to do so even though there is a parry indicator. Though the fact that I was able to parry the top heavy from kick once is making everything screaming at me think otherwise. But again that could have been to wrong timing on my sparring partner. All I know is even after all this testing and frame by frame analizing I don't feel satisfied or like i've accomplished anything.

All I can really say is that it feels more consistent to parry off of cabers toss than it is from kick. I was and have been able to parry after being crushing countered and that timing drove me nuts. But this is even more hair pulling for me. I guess just always go for top heavy. Plus side though I learned how to parry celtic curse cancel almost consistently. Which means that won't be safe for people for much longer.

No idea if time snap has any effect on this since he was dropped post removal. So I guess for now i'll just stop thinking it's responsible till the devs fix the indicators.

Franleonhart
08-28-2017, 09:36 PM
exactly my thoughts its a good for nothing here atm, i didnt think it was possible for ubisoft to release such a weak hero, that is new for ubisoft.

Netcode_err_404
08-28-2017, 11:15 PM
exactly my thoughts its a good for nothing here atm, i didnt think it was possible for ubisoft to release such a weak hero, that is new for ubisoft.

He is not weak. He is completely garbage.


Beeing parried to death is fun tho.

You cannot even feint a parry attempt, because is too slow. You cannot heavy feint into GB because is too slow.


You cannot mix up nothing except curse and the occasional caber toss.



If you face an assassin, you have literally 0 chances to actually win, because they can light spam you to death even before hyper armor gets up.



After the mistake of the centurion is clear they were afraid this season, but creating a so weak hero but leaving cent untouched is even absurd.

Waiting the occasional pro playaer that will say that he is the HL god incarnate.

Sekiro...
08-29-2017, 12:16 AM
For sure he is not in same level of a lawbringer or a centurion but he is not garbage.
Until now he is brand new, players will get better with him after get more experience.

Im happy we didnt have 2 other centurions on this season.

Netcode_err_404
08-29-2017, 12:20 AM
For sure he is not in same level of a lawbringer or a centurion but he is not garbage.
Until now he is brand new, players will get better with him after get more experience.

Im happy we didnt have 2 other centurions on this season.


He is. Your mixups are ****, and is too slow to do anything, on pc you will get parried non stop. Considering your feints are slow.

watsonclan335u
08-29-2017, 09:31 PM
He is. Your mixups are ****, and is too slow to do anything, on pc you will get parried non stop. Considering your feints are slow.

He is just one stampede charge away from greatness actually. ;)

kweassa1
08-30-2017, 09:13 AM
https://youtu.be/LgXKqHfUpMA

The vid above would be my "ideal" Highlander combat. Basically everything I preached in HL related discussions is right there.
(http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1736684-(video)-This-is-my-ideal-of-a-Highlander-combat)

Tyrjo
08-30-2017, 09:20 AM
I think the Highlander needs more HP. 125 is just peanuts for a slow hero. He should have 140.

MASTAHKILLER48
09-03-2017, 06:04 PM
Alright I have gotten more use to him but I still feel he needs a tad bit more damage! He is kinda meant to trade but trades poorly with most since his strongest move is 40 damage. Even with a bunch of gear it barely helps, I know he should have crazy damage but I think just a bit more to trade with since he loses most trades damage wise. I like the mix ups but it takes a lot of stamina. Honestly he is kinda overshadowed by the rest because his giant sword is weak his stamina is gone too fast to do those mix ups and the trades most of the time don't favor the highlander due to the lackluster damage!

Herbstlicht
09-03-2017, 10:53 PM
So, after even more time with this hero, my "final" thoughts for now. Still a lovely and ultra-fun concept. One that deserves to be taken apart in a duel and dominion section.

With Dominion, I will start.
All right, what we don't get::
Speed. We will arrive everywhere rather late. That's not too bad actually, but it still feels weird. Even the warlord runs faster.
Help: People are scared due to our large swings interrupting them. For good reason. If your allies don't get into your opponents back, they will let you handle the fighting by yourself. Highlanders are tricky teamplayers to jump in and help them.

What we do get:
Awesome top heavy damage. When your first top heavy connects, often so does your second. And now, you just dealt a wooping 80 dmg at the very least.
Celtic curse mixup into kick / toss: Very helpful to open up enemies to your team mates, stamina usage here is fair too.
Being able to help: You know that when you join in, its important to choose your angle right. No surprises here, a hero with his nice damage and mixup potential can be rather helpful in any situation.
Crushing Counter Strike: Heavy spam in Domion is common. Crushing Counter is lovely against it. Its actually very, very handy!

Overall: Highlander is nice in Dominion. Not overly powerful, but useful still. The more chaotic it gets and the more controlled you play, the better for you and your team.


Now to duels.
After having played through a few tournaments, I noticed one glaring weakness like never before. He is almost unable to fend off any decend assasin. You can handle the not so good ones with feinting and distance by moving backwards, when they fall for it and go for a dodge attack, you needn't even parry, you can simply hit them because the attack won't reach you.
Against the good ones, feinting is useless. They just attack you. Parrying Highlander lights is rather easy. Parrying his heavies - or waiting for a late dodge/deflect is too. But you can just hit him before the hyper armor. You can even guardbreak. Feinting is somewhat worse even. It too is hellish slow. Its hellish vulnerable to everything. Like Guardbreaks, lights, even a lot of heavys. Then there is his nice celtic curse mixup. Utterly useless. Gets parried almost all the time. Overall, I'd say he really is very weak against all very fast characters and parry punishes hurt him hard. You can only turtle up and go for parry punishes. Very bad style.

Now comes a special: Shugoki. Damn, thats hard too. This guy not only is a better trader, but he drains your stamina when he gets his lights in. His guardbreak hurts as well, so do his heavys - like everything that gets through. Highlander being as slow as he is, really has a hard time dealing with this slow guy.


One thing though, I really have to admit at this point.
I have absolutely no idea how to make him like really balanced. His damage potential is very high and his possible utility versatile. He is just too god damn slow. He needs be able to deal with assassins. He needs be able to trade more efficient. Maybe some very fast feinting might help. Maybe better / earlier super armor, though that alone won't even help too much against assassins.
So, whatever you guys at Ubi Soft decide to do with him. Don't go for some overkill, don't make the community hate this char.

The Highlander could be one of the most Iconic characters for this game. The design is incredible, the sword simply amazing. The complexity and choice of moves when playing him is awesome, some really good design. So treat him fairly.