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High-Horse
08-08-2017, 04:23 PM
I also posted this in Suggestions, but doesn't seem to be as much traffic. More than a suggestion, I'd like to see some more discussion on what, if anything, the Berserker needs to expand her kit.

I had a couple ideas to be taken together.

One is a stun effect added to certain top lights, much like a Raider.

- Any top light with hyperarmor (chained or dash forward+light
- NEW: Any heavy soft feinted into top light
- NEW: Spin Chop soft feinted into a top light

The last one was an idea I got from an old, old GIF I saw in a guide of a zerker showing off the light soft feint into dodge. These dodges were going into a spin chop that came down from the top. Obviously that aspect is gone, but I thought it would be a great tool to add it back in as a soft feint. Unless spin chop is being used to avoid an attack and counter during their recovery frames, it's easily baited and parried. As a soft feint, even from neutral could be a decent way to open enemies up.

What do you think? Would changes like this help the class and help the game? The PTS2 changes might make Zerker stronger vs turtles by default anyway. I've seen many times the suggestion to make the top heavy finisher an unblockable, but I don't think that addresses the problem of having no openers outside of feints in high lvl play (cuz, you know, I'm so high level).

Vingrask
08-08-2017, 04:53 PM
First, we need the defensive fix patches. Only with that alone Berserker has the potential to be what he should.

After the defensive fix patches over, we can talk about what to change on the hero. I tested him on the PT2 against level 3 bots (that are too easy, you see, Ubi!!!) and was a pleasure.

Lyskir
08-08-2017, 05:10 PM
First, we need the defensive fix patches. Only with that alone Berserker has the potential to be what he should.

After the defensive fix patches over, we can talk about what to change on the hero. I tested him on the PT2 against level 3 bots (that are too easy, you see, Ubi!!!) and was a pleasure.

Zerker looked pretty good on the PTR, he had very good chip dmg and the best deflect of all assasins and as we all know on PTR: deflect>parry

High-Horse
08-08-2017, 05:25 PM
The PTS2 was great. Most moves thrown out felt a lot safer, and in general Zerker felt a lot stronger. The mind games it has now combined with a more aggro meta means Zerker will be even better at noobstomping.

However, at the same time, I felt like a lot of attacks were only connecting because players were not used to the new parry timing or not used to the new heavy startup time. Once we're used to it again, Zerker might be in a similar place as now, bringing only feints while getting chip damage and parried somewhat less often. They're kit will still be pretty small, even of every move on the list got bumped a notch in viability.

I'm looking to expand the kit for more depth without turning every Hero into a Centurion.

Lyskir
08-08-2017, 05:55 PM
The PTS2 was great. Most moves thrown out felt a lot safer, and in general Zerker felt a lot stronger. The mind games it has now combined with a more aggro meta means Zerker will be even better at noobstomping.

However, at the same time, I felt like a lot of attacks were only connecting because players were not used to the new parry timing or not used to the new heavy startup time. Once we're used to it again, Zerker might be in a similar place as now, bringing only feints while getting chip damage and parried somewhat less often. They're kit will still be pretty small, even of every move on the list got bumped a notch in viability.

I'm looking to expand the kit for more depth without turning every Hero into a Centurion.

i guess many heroes dont benefit from the meta change at all

the top heroes will be heroes with good parry punishes like cent, warlord or orochi (or the new heroes?) or even cong because his lights are unpunishable with those changes and he still gets a free gb after he blocks a heavy

I predict zerker will be solid midtier, i like playing him so im looking forward to it :)

S0Mi_xD
08-08-2017, 06:06 PM
Nice ideas, but you are not the first one, and all ppl befor you agreed to wait for the defensive meta changes befor suggesting things.

As for me, i am one of those who are true Berserker mains, and always tries to make him a good hero. So we are on the same side.
Only as an example:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1685395-Berserker-Deflect-needs-a-Rework!
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1652128-Berserker-does-need-Adjustments

Those are some of my ideas i posted since i joined the forum.

Also, currently i am making a Berserker Guide and a Suggestion list with the PTR changes in mind.

So if you are interessted in talking/discussing abit about Berserker and what he could need, for that i want to open up a Pure Berserker suggestion thread.

AnEnticingSquid
08-08-2017, 06:08 PM
He needs some type of unblockable. Not an attack but a shove of some sort. Reason being is he cannot break open a turtle at all. He has no fast moves and his feints only work if your opponent trys to parry everything you throw out. I also think he should have a "superior feint". For instance, he will feint a lot later in his attacks making them more scary to deal with. Still reactable, but a lot harder. And with chip damage you would respect his top heavy feints. Because as it is now, he is the easyest character to turtle against. Hence why I see him as the weakest class. My rep 10 berserker would appreciate any buff he can get...

Vingrask
08-08-2017, 06:25 PM
The point is how fast Berserker can feint>attack and how much the feint game is strong on his hands. No other hero, except by the Kensei pretty close, has a feint game which can really confuse the enemy and act in all directions, all the time. What most Berserker players didn't know (I would say basicaly all, I never met another who play like I do) is that confuse the enemy is his tool.I started to play Valkyrie (rep 2), I have a Shinobi (rep 5) and a Orochi (rep 4), and with all the three I face problems against some type of enemies which Berserker overpass flawsly.

Without being predictable, of all my four heroes, Berserker (2000+ Duels) is the one I feel more confident. Even when the enemy decide to do not parry at all and just block everything, I'm still able to connect some lights. The big problem is how the enemy just need 1 Parry to make all your effort worthless, what we hope the defensive fix really balance.

Shinobi I gave up, too predictable and punishble.
Orochi, using everything HE has (I never parry with him), I'm pure counter attacker with deflects and side-backdash moves.
Valkyrie I try to be as much complex as possible, even she can be predictable, but, damn, the huge variety of mixups is fun.
Now my Berserker is pure aggression and I can't even call what I do with him mixups, because I can vary it so much. The only fix needed was make my aggression worth, and on PT2 it feels like yes, I will have a good time confusing my enemies, and even they parrying me, on theory, the Berserker playstyle can paid it back. So, still in theory, to beat my Berserker one need to outplay me with the own hero, not just with the core that can be used for any hero and makes no difference.

Ofc balances will need to me make, like Centurion and other heavy parry punishers, but considering the hero characteristics there is no problem with it.

High-Horse
08-08-2017, 07:09 PM
The point is how fast Berserker can feint>attack and how much the feint game is strong on his hands. No other hero, except by the Kensei pretty close, has a feint game which can really confuse the enemy and act in all directions, all the time. What most Berserker players didn't know (I would say basicaly all, I never met another who play like I do) is that confuse the enemy is his tool.I started to play Valkyrie (rep 2), I have a Shinobi (rep 5) and a Orochi (rep 4), and with all the three I face problems against some type of enemies which Berserker overpass flawsly.

Without being predictable, of all my four heroes, Berserker (2000+ Duels) is the one I feel more confident. Even when the enemy decide to do not parry at all and just block everything, I'm still able to connect some lights. The big problem is how the enemy just need 1 Parry to make all your effort worthless, what we hope the defensive fix really balance.

Shinobi I gave up, too predictable and punishble.
Orochi, using everything HE has (I never parry with him), I'm pure counter attacker with deflects and side-backdash moves.
Valkyrie I try to be as much complex as possible, even she can be predictable, but, damn, the huge variety of mixups is fun.
Now my Berserker is pure aggression and I can't even call what I do with him mixups, because I can vary it so much. The only fix needed was make my aggression worth, and on PT2 it feels like yes, I will have a good time confusing my enemies, and even they parrying me, on theory, the Berserker playstyle can paid it back. So, still in theory, to beat my Berserker one need to outplay me with the own hero, not just with the core that can be used for any hero and makes no difference.

Ofc balances will need to me make, like Centurion and other heavy parry punishers, but considering the hero characteristics there is no problem with it. I think most Zerker mains would agree that confusing the enemy is really the baseline of the whole kit. The fast lights from a heavy feint really destroys noobs or someone who tries to parry everything, but if the player can't be confused through hours of practice, the Zerker is pretty much shut down. Attacks really just come from the side as the top light and heavy are slower and more reactable. They catch someone offguard after mixing it up a few rounds in. I feel like I do really well against people who 1) don't know how to block or 2) try to parry everything. The best way to beat a zerker is to just block everything at first to figure out their playstyle and mixup game. You can't be completely unpredictable without forgetting what you're doing and pushing random keys. They'll figure it out eventually (most seem to have it figured out this far into the game).

Chip will help greatly as it will eventually force a blocked up turtle to do something the Zerker can respond to.

Btw, sorry I missed the part about holding off suggestions until the new meta drops. I just hadn't seen the specific idea of a stun added to some top lights, or a Spin Chop soft feinted into a top light.

bmason1000
08-08-2017, 07:45 PM
I'd like to see the dashing top light continue the chain on block as a first hit. Or all first lights, really. Characters not get a free gb on blocked lights. Unless that's an intended mechanic of conq/valk, do they get that on everyone?

Berserker is supposed to be berserk, right? Total frenzy, ignore damage, ignore whatever your enemy is doing. This wild viking just crashed down flinging an axe at you but you blocked it, so, momentum gone.

Keep blocked lights ending a chain, that feels balanced to me, but not prevent the chain from starting. The attack can still be interrupted but not on block. You have to be good enough to stop the frenzy once its begun, but being able to start it immediately fits the flavor of the character in my eyes. I wouldn't propose bash type openers or unblockables because i think that's too much.

bmason1000
08-08-2017, 07:48 PM
because you can't edit on a cell phone for whatever reason, here's an addition.

I think getting in to the chain is key to the character, it opens up a lot of that mix up and feint potential. This is where my suggestions got their basis from.

High-Horse
08-08-2017, 07:52 PM
I'd like to see the dashing top light continue the chain on block as a first hit. Or all first lights, really. Characters not get a free gb on blocked lights. Unless that's an intended mechanic of conq/valk, do they get that on everyone?

Berserker is supposed to be berserk, right? Total frenzy, ignore damage, ignore whatever your enemy is doing. This wild viking just crashed down flinging an axe at you but you blocked it, so, momentum gone.

Keep blocked lights ending a chain, that feels balanced to me, but not prevent the chain from starting. The attack can still be interrupted but not on block. You have to be good enough to stop the frenzy once its begun, but being able to start it immediately fits the flavor of the character in my eyes. I wouldn't propose bash type openers or unblockables because i think that's too much.

So basically like the recent Kensei buff to dashing attacks being uninterrupted by Block? I like it. Also part of the "ignoring damage" was the buff to Dauntless starting with the second hit of the chain. Being able to even more easily get into the chain would push Zerker closer towards the frenzied aggressor.

There was a bug where getting a light blocked had such a long recovery you couldn't CGB but I don't notice that anymore. The only time I get GB off of a blocked attack is a heavy hitting a superior block of a Conq or a dashing Valk.

bmason1000
08-08-2017, 07:59 PM
So basically like the recent Kensei buff to dashing attacks being uninterrupted by Block? I like it. Also part of the "ignoring damage" was the buff to Dauntless starting with the second hit of the chain. Being able to even more easily get into the chain would push Zerker closer towards the frenzied aggressor.

There was a bug where getting a light blocked had such a long recovery you couldn't CGB but I don't notice that anymore. The only time I get GB off of a blocked attack is a heavy hitting a superior block of a Conq or a dashing Valk.
Yes, just like the kensei buff. The dauntless buff was perfect, love it, want that to stay forever.

As for conq/valk free gb on block, is that intended?

High-Horse
08-08-2017, 08:08 PM
As for conq/valk free gb on block, is that intended? Yes, if Conq blocks a heavy, Conq gets a free GB. Valk needs to dash into the attack to gain superior block, and if she blocks a heavy, I believe she has enough time for an untechable GB.

Jarl.Felix
08-08-2017, 08:52 PM
He's going to be op in season 3 . You got what you want. Why so much "brainstrom" ?

High-Horse
08-08-2017, 09:27 PM
He's going to be op in season 3 . You got what you want. Why so much "brainstrom" ?

1) we don't know that
2) that's not what I want
3) I don't think you understand the point of a thread like this

UbiJurassic
08-09-2017, 01:42 AM
Thanks for the suggestions and feedback on the Berserker everyone! I'll be sure to send your discussion on it over to the team.

Personally, I'm starting to develop a phobia of Berserkers. I've been beat into the dirt by them a few too many times I guess. :p

bmason1000
08-09-2017, 02:22 AM
Thanks for the suggestions and feedback on the Berserker everyone! I'll be sure to send your discussion on it over to the team.

Personally, I'm starting to develop a phobia of Berserkers. I've been beat into the dirt by them a few too many times I guess. :p honestly, that's exactly what they should do haha. Facing a berserker should give you an "ah crap" feeling because the pressure is on right from the start. I believe a buff similar to the kensei one as discussed would do that. It allows a berserker to immediately go from zero to 100. Honestly it won't get you any more kills than before unless your opponent panics easier, it's more a flavor buff than anything else, really.

BudgetParrot118
08-09-2017, 02:23 AM
Well if you want to beat up a zerker just pick Centurion because his moveset enables him to attack a beserker at the only thing he has going for him which is his stamina pool and it does some damage I almost will want to say it's unfair because that is the one character you can get stunlock with when fighting a centurion and the odds of you beating us in cherry on just buy the makeup of his Combos and the use of all the stamina attacks he has mixed in slim-to-none I don't care how experienced you are how good you are

You can go on YouTube and watch a high-level beserker with really good abilities get his butt handed to him through a centurion

I don't want beserker to be op that's my main.

I want him to be challenging enough to ward off spammers and inexperienced players but on the flip side have an attraction to high-level play

Which I have to say his build so far is on point with that but far too many people with no rep score like to pick him and spam his zone...

I ran into somebody today using his dodging light where he Dodges and then spins and then hit you with a light

I guess it worked in the end because his fighting style was so awkward it messed me up when I was playing Warlord

But then again my own little character flaw I got really raged out over the fact I couldn't do anything but block

I parried maybe one of those but that's it
But then again I don't know it may be because of my dissing orientation I'm having with my locking on auto lock

I can personally tell you if I ever did any of that dumb stuff they were doing in a match I would have got a top-heavy to the Head real quick

Yet when I try to do a top-heavy attack it literally missed him I knew what he was going to do wasn't mine breaking he just did the same move over and over again with the light attacks left then right then left then right

I don't know if there has been anything any changes to berserker lately?

Certain things I'm saying people do that I've not done because I got punished yet now I'm doing the things they did to me when I would just do that move maybe two times in a row and I'm not pulling any of it off

It seemed like I could never catch up to the beserker in a fight he was always too fast if he dodged he got out of my area real quick to where I couldn't reach him

Yet when I play him it seems like everybody is right on top of me all the time and when I do the very same thing such as Dodge or try to double dodge they still catch up to me real quick

That's what's mind boggling. And like I've said I've had issues with auto-lock where I'm locked onto a character and no one moves or dodges yet my warlord will do a jumping slash and go right beside them or just not even try to attack them like I didn't even have auto lock on

Even though I do?

High-Horse
08-09-2017, 03:32 AM
Hey thanks, Jurassic!

My ideas might be terrible, just wanted to see some more zerker-specific discussion going on the front page. I can't wait to see where the heroes' standing goes as the changes roll out.

Mia.Nora
08-09-2017, 03:35 AM
Here see my suggestion in this thread!!

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1721497-Patch-Notes-v1-2-Season-3-Wishlist

dragon7jdc
08-09-2017, 01:18 PM
he should get hyper armor all the time like shugoki and it will never go away by any means. and make his weakest attack do 70 damage.

S0Mi_xD
08-10-2017, 12:14 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1721926-Analysing-this-Hero-Works-not-as-intended?p=12828990#post12828990