PDA

View Full Version : GB shouldn't counter dodge



Mudflaaaps
08-06-2017, 07:52 PM
A guard break should not grab someone whilst they're dodging.

I've been saying this since day one and I cannot believe it's still in the game, but people don't seem to realise that this is the main fundamental problem with this games mechanics.
Struggling against the spam characters? That's because 9/10 times, you're unable to dodge away because you'll be caught by a guard break.
Out of stamina? Can't dodge mate, get grabbed.

Strictly speaking, guard break SHOULD be for breaking guard. It's not a grab, it's not a grapple, its a guard break. I love the concept; a move designed to stop people defending relentlessly. But through poor design, it's become the game breaker.

Change guard break so it only works if someone is actually guarding. Running or dodging should make you immune to guard break.
This will significantly effect the overpowered spam characters of the game (lawbringer/centurion/warden), whilst bringing everyone else onto a fair playing field.

Whilst on the subject, another guard break change I think should b implemented;

Guard break should NEVER be uncounterable.
There are so many stupid frames in this game that make countering guard break impossible, which is unfair.

For instance, when parried.
Parry guarantees (usually, always should) a free heavy.
It should NOT guarantee a free GB, because this often leads to stupid amounts of free damage.

After an enemy dodges certain moves (shoves, pushes, headbutts etc), free guard break (most of the time, lawbringers break this rule often).
Again, these moves should be slowed down so the enemy gets a free heavy, NOT a free guard break with stupid damage.

Guard break should be a turtle breaker, not a free damage giver. Its become the main form of attack and frankly ruins the game.

Lyskir
08-06-2017, 07:57 PM
GB is nerfed in that way that u cant do a GB after parry and Feint+GB on ptr anymore

the only thing that counters dodge is GB and I hope it stays that way

Mudflaaaps
08-06-2017, 07:59 PM
Of course it isn't, attacks counter dodge. You can't Guard break someone who's in the middle of an attack, so why should you be able to guard break someone moving away?

Lyskir
08-06-2017, 08:06 PM
Of course it isn't, attacks counter dodge. You can't Guard break someone who's in the middle of an attack, so why should you be able to guard break someone moving away?

that doesnt make any sense u use dodge to avoid attacks, attacks only counter dodge when ur dodge with wrong timing It even has Invisible frames

so in your opinion dodge shoud not have any punish?

may I ask what main do u have?

SplugeKing
08-06-2017, 08:09 PM
GB is nerfed in that way that u cant do a GB after parry and Feint+GB on ptr anymore

the only thing that counters dodge is GB and I hope it stays that way

Agree

Mudflaaaps
08-06-2017, 08:14 PM
Well then by that logic, guard break doesn't effectively counter dodge either...

Dodge shouldn't have a punish, its a dodge! It's an evasive manoeuvre, it literally goes against logic for it to be countered by a guard break.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-06-2017, 08:32 PM
Guard break countering dodge is fine. It's the moves that force dodging which can then be canceled into a guard break that are a problem. Unfortunately the devs for this game apparently love 50/50s and think they're a positive thing in this game.

Lyskir
08-06-2017, 08:36 PM
Guard break countering dodge is fine. It's the moves that force dodging which can then be canceled into a guard break that are a problem. Unfortunately the devs for this game apparently love 50/50s and think they're a positive thing in this game.

i kinda agree with that

Justicator
08-06-2017, 08:48 PM
As a Warden main... I have to agree to this completely... 50/50s are just terrible...

Alustar.
08-06-2017, 09:01 PM
As a PK main I agree, GB should be left as is. You want a sure fire way to lose out to every assassin in the game? Give them the free rain to dodge relentlessly without consequence. While it frustrates me that I cannot CGB from a dodge. It's that fact alone that keeps me playing smarter and measuring my distance and blocking instead of dodging when I'm in close. However, because of that the downside is with certain classes that means I cannot make use of deflect as readily because I'm waiting for the cancel grab.
It's a love/hate. But until other things are ironed out first, this is the least of my concerns.

Jiblet2017
08-06-2017, 09:21 PM
Guard break countering dodge is fine. It's the moves that force dodging which can then be canceled into a guard break that are a problem. Unfortunately the devs for this game apparently love 50/50s and think they're a positive thing in this game.

Give this man a medal (not sarcasm).

I cant think of anything more toxic than a 50/50, especially one that is solely in the hands of the offensive player.

For example, warden's SB into GB is cancel-able on reaction to a dodge - and UBI has looked at that mechanic and has decided to tighten the timing multiple times.

Enter cent who has a stronger punish if you fail to dodge (for example - a pin-talon or pin- unlock zone combo with 5.5 seconds of CC) and more forgiving window for timing the cancel into GB.

It seems like a strange design choice to me given the treatment of the SB.

SplugeKing
08-06-2017, 09:26 PM
As a PK main I agree, GB should be left as is. You want a sure fire way to lose out to every assassin in the game? Give them the free rain to dodge relentlessly without consequence.

This

Knight_Raime
08-06-2017, 09:40 PM
A guard break should not grab someone whilst they're dodging.

I've been saying this since day one and I cannot believe it's still in the game, but people don't seem to realise that this is the main fundamental problem with this games mechanics.
Struggling against the spam characters? That's because 9/10 times, you're unable to dodge away because you'll be caught by a guard break.
Out of stamina? Can't dodge mate, get grabbed.

Strictly speaking, guard break SHOULD be for breaking guard. It's not a grab, it's not a grapple, its a guard break. I love the concept; a move designed to stop people defending relentlessly. But through poor design, it's become the game breaker.

Change guard break so it only works if someone is actually guarding. Running or dodging should make you immune to guard break.
This will significantly effect the overpowered spam characters of the game (lawbringer/centurion/warden), whilst bringing everyone else onto a fair playing field.

Whilst on the subject, another guard break change I think should b implemented;

Guard break should NEVER be uncounterable.
There are so many stupid frames in this game that make countering guard break impossible, which is unfair.

For instance, when parried.
Parry guarantees (usually, always should) a free heavy.
It should NOT guarantee a free GB, because this often leads to stupid amounts of free damage.

After an enemy dodges certain moves (shoves, pushes, headbutts etc), free guard break (most of the time, lawbringers break this rule often).
Again, these moves should be slowed down so the enemy gets a free heavy, NOT a free guard break with stupid damage.

Guard break should be a turtle breaker, not a free damage giver. Its become the main form of attack and frankly ruins the game.

So. You want assassins to go unchecked.
You want GB's to be untechable.
You think parries should give a heavy for free.
you think LB is an OP spammy hero.
and you think attacks counter dodges.

Yeah no. not going to touch that.



Guard break countering dodge is fine. It's the moves that force dodging which can then be canceled into a guard break that are a problem. Unfortunately the devs for this game apparently love 50/50s and think they're a positive thing in this game.

There is only one 50/50 in the game that has a GB that even stands a chance at landing against a competent opponent. That's centurions. and it's only because it's a soft feinted GB. LB's block shove into light/gb isn't a 50 50 because both attacks are coming in neutral state. Gbing from neutral never works in above average play. Shin doesn't have his DD into GB or LL anymore. etc.

The only "bad" GB mix up is heavy feint into GB. which is used either to trick the opponent into an attack so you can parry or GB their heavy start up. Or GB their dodge. and that was promptly removed on PTR. If you fail a parry attempt and feint to cover it up your guard is still open for a short window. and the added 100ms startup on GB's means you can't GB people out of heavies anymore.

In my opinion every hero needs to get an option like the centurion where you can feint a specific attack into GB. that way GB will be the counter for dodge spammers and occasionally a mix up that actually works.

Also if we didn't have guessing games in fighting games things would end up similar to for honor. Part of the reason FH is so defensive happy is because nearly everything is reactable. the higher skilled players are not there just because of good reflexes. it's because they are good at making good reads. So mix ups don't get them nearly as often.

Lyskir
08-06-2017, 09:45 PM
So. You want assassins to go unchecked.
You want GB's to be untechable.
You think parries should give a heavy for free.
you think LB is an OP spammy hero.
and you think attacks counter dodges.

Yeah no. not going to touch that.




There is only one 50/50 in the game that has a GB that even stands a chance at landing against a competent opponent. That's centurions. and it's only because it's a soft feinted GB. LB's block shove into light/gb isn't a 50 50 because both attacks are coming in neutral state. Gbing from neutral never works in above average play. Shin doesn't have his DD into GB or LL anymore. etc.

The only "bad" GB mix up is heavy feint into GB. which is used either to trick the opponent into an attack so you can parry or GB their heavy start up. Or GB their dodge. and that was promptly removed on PTR. If you fail a parry attempt and feint to cover it up your guard is still open for a short window. and the added 100ms startup on GB's means you can't GB people out of heavies anymore.

In my opinion every hero needs to get an option like the centurion where you can feint a specific attack into GB. that way GB will be the counter for dodge spammers and occasionally a mix up that actually works.

Also if we didn't have guessing games in fighting games things would end up similar to for honor. Part of the reason FH is so defensive happy is because nearly everything is reactable. the higher skilled players are not there just because of good reflexes. it's because they are good at making good reads. So mix ups don't get them nearly as often.


i would love that but, i guess the devs would think the heroes would be too much like each other then :(

Jiblet2017
08-06-2017, 09:52 PM
There is only one 50/50 in the game that has a GB that even stands a chance at landing against a competent opponent. That's centurions. and it's only because it's a soft feinted GB. LB's block shove into light/gb isn't a 50 50 because both attacks are coming in neutral state. Gbing from neutral never works in above average play. Shin doesn't have his DD into GB or LL anymore. etc.

The only "bad" GB mix up is heavy feint into GB. which is used either to trick the opponent into an attack so you can parry or GB their heavy start up. Or GB their dodge. and that was promptly removed on PTR. If you fail a parry attempt and feint to cover it up your guard is still open for a short window. and the added 100ms startup on GB's means you can't GB people out of heavies anymore.

In my opinion every hero needs to get an option like the centurion where you can feint a specific attack into GB. that way GB will be the counter for dodge spammers and occasionally a mix up that actually works.

Also if we didn't have guessing games in fighting games things would end up similar to for honor. Part of the reason FH is so defensive happy is because nearly everything is reactable. the higher skilled players are not there just because of good reflexes. it's because they are good at making good reads. So mix ups don't get them nearly as often.

Totally agree. Whatever your views on 50/50's giving one character such a powerful tool (which is executable on dodge) is unwarranted without comparable tools on other characters. I am even fine with dodge attack characters (minus nobushi) not getting a soft feint, because they arguably semi counter the gb aspect (though not the feint into parry option). However, to have him as the only character that can do this seems bizarre.

Knight_Raime
08-06-2017, 09:59 PM
i would love that but, i guess the devs would think the heroes would be too much like each other then :(

Just gotta keep working at them. We're getting defensive meta changes and dedi's because of player persistence.



Totally agree. Whatever your views on 50/50's giving one character such a powerful tool (which is executable on dodge) is unwarranted without comparable tools on other characters. I am even fine with dodge attack characters (minus nobushi) not getting a soft feint, because they arguably semi counter the gb aspect (though not the feint into parry option). However, to have him as the only character that can do this seems bizarre.

If I had things my way every hero would get 3 things:
~a light into heavy combo
~being able to soft feint a specific attack into gb (prefferably on a move that can be comboed)
~and being able to soft feint a light into zone.

All 3 aimed at giving people more mix ups thus bolstering kit usability.

UbiNoty
08-06-2017, 11:45 PM
Just popping in to say thank you guys for the constructive discussion in here.
While not everyone in here agrees, we're talking to each other like people and not fire-breathing dragons. If we can have more of these I'll be very happy. :)

Alustar.
08-07-2017, 12:01 AM
Just gotta keep working at them. We're getting defensive meta changes and dedi's because of player persistence.




If I had things my way every hero would get 3 things:
~a light into heavy combo
~being able to soft feint a specific attack into gb (prefferably on a move that can be comboed)
~and being able to soft feint a light into zone.

All 3 aimed at giving people more mix ups thus bolstering kit usability.

The only problem I see here is the assassin classes, what attacks would soft feint into a GB as we don't have chargeable attacks, and outside of berserker I don't see a chargeable attack for that class making much sense. Not to mention that's all we need is one more thing for people to complain about amirite?

Jiblet2017
08-07-2017, 12:13 AM
The only problem I see here is the assassin classes, what attacks would soft feint into a GB as we don't have chargeable attacks, and outside of berserker I don't see a chargeable attack for that class making much sense. Not to mention that's all we need is one more thing for people to complain about amirite?

Most characters do not have a "chargeable attack" outside of centurion, warden, conq heavies, and shinobi's ranged component. I don't know why this changes things, as cent does not NEED to charge his attack to soft feint into GB.

TheTKOShow
08-07-2017, 12:15 AM
Rip tide strike should be a little tougher to guardbreaj threw

Alustar.
08-07-2017, 12:39 AM
Most characters do not have a "chargeable attack" outside of centurion, warden, conq heavies, and shinobi's ranged component. I don't know why this changes things, as cent does not NEED to charge his attack to soft feint into GB.

I would change/add In unblockables then, that's usually what I see soft feinting at least. I could be wrong. I do like the idea of giving more options to switch through combos for all classes though. I think that alone could help solve a lot of problems all around.
Granted it could also make a whole new slew of issues. With more mix up options comes a higher level of reactionary play that casual players might find unappealing.

Jiblet2017
08-07-2017, 12:45 AM
I would change/add In unblockables then, that's usually what I see soft feinting at least. I could be wrong. I do like the idea of giving more options to switch through combos for all classes though. I think that alone could help solve a lot of problems all around.
Granted it could also make a whole new slew of issues. With more mix up options comes a higher level of reactionary play that casual players might find unappealing.

It is pretty clear that many people find this mechanic unappealing (myself included). I simply do not think it is healthy to essentially give one character such a powerful versatile tool. My stance is everyone should have it (or something of comparable versatility), or his Gb should simply operate like ever other character's. People complain about the pin (which is strong, dont get me wrong), but when cent's get more experienced it seems like this is where alot of his power lies. Being able to pressure and react to non-attack dodges, then punish with a GB is an incredible tool.

Knight_Raime
08-07-2017, 02:13 AM
The only problem I see here is the assassin classes, what attacks would soft feint into a GB as we don't have chargeable attacks, and outside of berserker I don't see a chargeable attack for that class making much sense. Not to mention that's all we need is one more thing for people to complain about amirite?

Putting it on a charge/unblockable makes it easier to tell when it's coming. But not required for soft feinting. I don't know how long you've been playing/active on the forums. But people used to be able to soft feint zones (not all classes mind you) so it would roughly work the same way.

Since i'm mostly familiar with the assassin classes I was thinking about doing a write up here in the next few days with suggested tweaks assuming everything we saw in PTR 2 goes live at some point. and in there I could easily suggest which attack should get the soft feint into zone. Might even extend the write up to include other classes I have decent playtime on.

But the "easiest" way to implement the soft feint into GB would be to tack it onto the light into heavy combo I suggest everyone has. That way you have a few different things you can do off of one combo.

needless to say it's been something i've been thinking about for awhile. Not every class would technically need the soft feint into GB. like warden. Warden already has good game with SB mixups. So he might not need it. regardless. I'll be having some character specific thread within a week from today going up giving suggestions on how to tweak them post PTR.

kweassa1
08-07-2017, 02:59 AM
https://youtu.be/rc5qT4Kvuqg?t=245

04:05 -- seems like GB counters dodge :rolleyes:

Antonioj26
08-07-2017, 03:38 AM
https://youtu.be/rc5qT4Kvuqg?t=245

04:05 -- seems like GB counters dodge :rolleyes:

I laughed way harder than I should have at that.

Tyrjo
08-07-2017, 09:56 AM
Guard break should be a turtle breaker, not a free damage giver. Its become the main form of attack and frankly ruins the game.

Exactly. Dodging is also a form of turtling you know. GB counters dodge turtles and that is how it needs to continue to be.

kweassa1
08-07-2017, 03:56 PM
I laughed way harder than I should have at that.

Sometimes I think all the life's solutions are in YouTube Antonio. :p