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Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 09:01 PM
I am genuinely confused on why people have dropped Shinobi and are calling him worthless now. I recently got back into for honor and i'm trying to feel out a new main (since I basically got shamed out of being a centurion main.) I'm currently hovering between Shinobi and PK.

I didn't struggle fighting people last night both in relistic elim and duels with shinobi. I'm rep 1 with her at the moment. I want to believe there is actual weight to this statement and it's not just people crying over nerf because they crutched on kick. But at the moment I really can't see it.

So if anyone who's got a decent bit of experience with Shinobi or at least better insight than me with this game could explain potentially why people think she's bad now that would be great. I deff understand her being knocked down from god tier to A tier. But people are making it sound like she's waaay worse than A tier.

kweassa1
08-05-2017, 09:31 PM
...its basically chatter coming from the bottom-tier, average or below level players, Raime. You know, the same sort who cries "devil" when they see a centurion. :rolleyes:

To digress a bit, I did foresee this coming.

Most people, on average, are very, very low in skill level. (Let me clarify I'm one of them :D ) And usually the perception of how 'good' a class is, for these people, are vastly affected by their performance in Dominion. The problem is, a lot of different things factor in during Dominion, and its pretty difficult to accurately measure true performance. This is especially more difficult when the skill levels are so low, so rarely anyone really uses their class to its full potential. The very reason why low-skilled players like me prefer Dominion, is because there are other factors than pure combat skill that could profoundly affect the game, so it acts as a reasonable buffer to the difference in skill levels between players, so everyone could more or less enjoy it in some way.

That being said, I've long maintained that even when season2 started, the Peacekeeper was still overall the best assassin class with a universal use -- it can do everything well enough. Some people said that the PK has become obsolete, but I knew they were really, really off the mark. Like said, most people don't really use their class very well in the average games us sucky players play.

...and guess what happens if a sucky player grabs a Shinobi with the shortest reflex guard and only 90 HP. :rolleyes: ... especially in Dom, where they could be attacked and cornered by multiple enemies.


So nowadays, after 3 months, even average players are starting to catch on, and accordingly the Shinobi numbers have been dwindling in Dominion,.. because just like 70~80% of Centurions in Dominion are scrubs using the Cent combos against same scrubs who have no idea how to counter it, 70~80% of Shinobis are basically "0.5 player" -- they don't even count as a full "1 player" in most games.

They are absolutely terrible in basic defense skills ...so all they can do is attack from range. And since ranged attacks aren't too difficult to counter even for average players, they can't kill ANYTHING when its a 1v1 situation -- much less so if they're outnumbered. All they do is follow someone around and offer some ranged attacks when ganging up on someone. That's why they aren't even "1 full player" -- they're more of a "power-up" attached to some other player. :D



All of the above said, Raime, now imagine how these sucky Shinobis would ever handle themselves if they were forced to fight in a 1v1.

You guessed it right -- crappy defense, crappy combat tactics... so all they can do is just repeat the DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... until the opponent is dead.

So, then, this time, imagine what they would say about a Shinobi when a recent patch nerfed the hit range of the kick, and then increased stamina cost so it can't be spammed constantly.



Voila -- there's your answer. :D

Lyskir
08-05-2017, 09:32 PM
mmhhh i have no experience with shinobi cause i dont use samurai heroes ( i dont like weeb heroes for some reason,although
i like japan, anime and stuff)

but i have zero problems fighting against shinobis, i use raider/warlord/zerker most of the time.
i can parry shins lights pretty solid and can dodge his kick...when he dares to use a range attack its a free heavy for me most of the time


maybe i face only bad shins...i dont know

in my opninion shin is bottom mid tier, he dont need his kick rebuffed cause that **** was absolute broken but he needs at least a bit more hp and better block

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 09:57 PM
...its basically chatter coming from the bottom-tier, average or below level players, Raime. You know, the same sort who cries "devil" when they see a centurion. :rolleyes:

To digress a bit, I did foresee this coming.

Most people, on average, are very, very low in skill level. (Let me clarify I'm one of them :D ) And usually the perception of how 'good' a class is, for these people, are vastly affected by their performance in Dominion. The problem is, a lot of different things factor in during Dominion, and its pretty difficult to accurately measure true performance. This is especially more difficult when the skill levels are so low, so rarely anyone really uses their class to its full potential. The very reason why low-skilled players like me prefer Dominion, is because there are other factors than pure combat skill that could profoundly affect the game, so it acts as a reasonable buffer to the difference in skill levels between players, so everyone could more or less enjoy it in some way.

That being said, I've long maintained that even when season2 started, the Peacekeeper was still overall the best assassin class with a universal use -- it can do everything well enough. Some people said that the PK has become obsolete, but I knew they were really, really off the mark. Like said, most people don't really use their class very well in the average games us sucky players play.

...and guess what happens if a sucky player grabs a Shinobi with the shortest reflex guard and only 90 HP. :rolleyes: ... especially in Dom, where they could be attacked and cornered by multiple enemies.


So nowadays, after 3 months, even average players are starting to catch on, and accordingly the Shinobi numbers have been dwindling in Dominion,.. because just like 70~80% of Centurions in Dominion are scrubs using the Cent combos against same scrubs who have no idea how to counter it, 70~80% of Shinobis are basically "0.5 player" -- they don't even count as a full "1 player" in most games.

They are absolutely terrible in basic defense skills ...so all they can do is attack from range. And since ranged attacks aren't too difficult to counter even for average players, they can't kill ANYTHING when its a 1v1 situation -- much less so if they're outnumbered. All they do is follow someone around and offer some ranged attacks when ganging up on someone. That's why they aren't even "1 full player" -- they're more of a "power-up" attached to some other player. :D



All of the above said, Raime, now imagine how these sucky Shinobis would ever handle themselves if they were forced to fight in a 1v1.

You guessed it right -- crappy defense, crappy combat tactics... so all they can do is just repeat the DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... DDodge-Kick-Heavy... until the opponent is dead.

So, then, this time, imagine what they would say about a Shinobi when a recent patch nerfed the hit range of the kick, and then increased stamina cost so it can't be spammed constantly.



Voila -- there's your answer. :D

See I kind of figured it was people who only used his kick or DD into GB.
I see too many shins trying to play aggression rather than trying to play patient.

Personally I feel like post ptr he should get an HP buff. but that's probably it. I played against several heros last night and I only died with shin when I clearly made a mistake I could have avoided.
I do agree though. PK sadly is still better. Which is a shame because shin has a decent opener. and great mix ups. But his low HP and bad block he can't compare to PK who can literally eat someone in 3 seconds flat with her random thrown lights, quick GB stab stab stab and a canceled zone.

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 09:59 PM
mmhhh i have no experience with shinobi cause i dont use samurai heroes ( i dont like weeb heroes for some reason,although
i like japan, anime and stuff)

but i have zero problems fighting against shinobis, i use raider/warlord/zerker most of the time.
i can parry shins lights pretty solid and can dodge his kick...when he dares to use a range attack its a free heavy for me most of the time


maybe i face only bad shins...i dont know

in my opninion shin is bottom mid tier, he dont need his kick rebuffed cause that **** was absolute broken but he needs at least a bit more hp and better block

It's been in my experiences that most shins play hyper aggressively and spam their movements too much. Not really trying to mix up or space their opponent properly.
I don't think he needs a better block. as his movement more than makes up for that. But I would agree post PTR he's going to need more HP.

since he'll be one of the only people (if the only person) who can be hit by a guaranteed heavy after someone counters his ranged GB. (depending on distance obv) and OOS is going to literally kill him.

Lyskir
08-05-2017, 10:03 PM
It's been in my experiences that most shins play hyper aggressively and spam their movements too much. Not really trying to mix up or space their opponent properly.
I don't think he needs a better block. as his movement more than makes up for that. But I would agree post PTR he's going to need more HP.

since he'll be one of the only people (if the only person) who can be hit by a guaranteed heavy after someone counters his ranged GB. (depending on distance obv) and OOS is going to literally kill him.


agree

CandleInTheDark
08-05-2017, 10:11 PM
Slightly offtopic first off, don't let people shame you out of your main if you really prefer them, I've been there with peacekeeper. Play them the way you think is right, be one of the mains who try to lead the discussion in what needs doing with them as you did with your other thread.

In terms of the shinobi, I honestly think people want to be able to 1vx or hold points or do honourable fighting in 4v4. People say it is boring to skirt around the edge of fights staying near other battles already going on, but given the shinobi;s whole lore is we work from the shadows and have come in your time of need, that is kind of what the shinobi is. I have gone 10-0 (and I am not a good player) skirting around the edge of battles and picking people off who are already in battles with charged heavies where they have to be really good to parry and use the kick as a whiff punish and as a wya of knocking people attacking teammates out of quasi-infinite chains. It might be I just see it different, given the choice in most games, not just For Honor, I am the assassin.

I always kind of liked that he had low hp,it meant I had to be sure to make better choices. I think he likely will get a hp buff because so many people are calling for it and he could perhaps do with some love, but then I am one of the few that still use him and I don't think he is as useless as some people claim he is.

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 10:30 PM
Slightly offtopic first off, don't let people shame you out of your main if you really prefer them, I've been there with peacekeeper. Play them the way you think is right, be one of the mains who try to lead the discussion in what needs doing with them as you did with your other thread.

In terms of the shinobi, I honestly think people want to be able to 1vx or hold points or do honourable fighting in 4v4. People say it is boring to skirt around the edge of fights staying near other battles already going on, but given the shinobi;s whole lore is we work from the shadows and have come in your time of need, that is kind of what the shinobi is. I have gone 10-0 (and I am not a good player) skirting around the edge of battles and picking people off who are already in battles with charged heavies where they have to be really good to parry and use the kick as a whiff punish and as a wya of knocking people attacking teammates out of quasi-infinite chains. It might be I just see it different, given the choice in most games, not just For Honor, I am the assassin.

I always kind of liked that he had low hp,it meant I had to be sure to make better choices. I think he likely will get a hp buff because so many people are calling for it and he could perhaps do with some love, but then I am one of the few that still use him and I don't think he is as useless as some people claim he is.

I'm honestly just tired of people brushing me off because of who I play.
Like I hate warlord with a passion. But I don't write warlords off.

With shin I don't see why people are even dying so much tbh. You have the movement to basically never be hit. You just have to be patient.
I agree that he kind of needed the less HP. but considering the up coming ptr changes having low HP AND a bad block is a bit overkill. I'd rather he get an HP buff post ptr rather than giving him a better block. Better block imo goes against how he's supposed to be played.

XxHunterHxX
08-05-2017, 11:04 PM
Thing is that shinobi is cool...but as all the other caracters he has just 4 viable moves......and you ghet 1 chance to test the player....you ir fighting

NEVER EVER do the kick its useles people doge it
Never start with range gb useles people gb you (you can do it in a mix some times it works....as in range heavy in to sling shot in to range gb)


What you do is range heavy and if you land it go sling shot kick in to them if you land that you ghet a free heavy in then you do back flip back
If the guy parrys you DONT DO range atacks anymore
If he doges the sling shot kick stop doing it

If range wont work ghet close to hem and try to gb heavy + free light then light light then ghet back and try to do a doge kick in to free range heavy and some times you ghet lucky and you can spamm some noobs in to sling shot + heavy sling shot + heavy thill they die..... thats the only way to play shinobi agresivly.....

or you can play hem like candle said stay back and pick off people that dont pay atention

never 2 v 1 or 3 v 1 unles people ir relly low rep and noobs

never do range gb or range heavy vs centrion you give hem free paunce atack

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 11:14 PM
Thing is that shinobi is cool...but as all the other caracters he has just 4 viable moves......and you ghet 1 chance to test the player....you ir fighting

NEVER EVER do the kick its useles people doge it
Never start with range gb useles people gb you (you can do it in a mix some times it works....as in range heavy in to sling shot in to range gb)


What you do is range heavy and if you land it go sling shot kick in to them if you land that you ghet a free heavy in then you do back flip back
If the guy parrys you DONT DO range atacks anymore
If he doges the sling shot kick stop doing it

If range wont work ghet close to hem and try to gb heavy + free light then light light then ghet back and try to do a doge kick in to free range heavy and some times you ghet lucky and you can spamm some noobs in to sling shot + heavy sling shot + heavy thill they die..... thats the only way to play shinobi agresivly.....

or you can play hem like candle said stay back and pick off people that dont pay atention

never 2 v 1 or 3 v 1 unles people ir relly low rep and noobs

never do range gb or range heavy vs centrion you give hem free paunce atack

I understand how to play him. I just don't understand why people think he's trash these days.
I get ranged Gb's almost everytime I go for them because I cancel the heck out of it while mixing up. people usually don't see it coming.

I honestly believe people are just calling him bad now because they took away the 2 semi OP things from him (GB from double dodge and kick spam.)
But i'll continue to play shinobi for another rep or 2 just to see if I do happen to fight any more skilled players.

XxHunterHxX
08-05-2017, 11:21 PM
Shinobie is my main i love playing hem even do some times its pisses me off since some people can pretty much 3 hit you and you dead....raider in revenge can do 1 light in to heavy unblock and you ir dead people think he is trash now coz they cant spamm the kick...and they actualy need to think how to win not just spamm one move...that is why people now play raider...coz he is overbuffed and people abuse the charge and light in to unblocable its to easy to do and win....same thing with centurion people play caracters they find it easy to win with they dont like the challange of actualy gheting good with a caracter they like they just want the easy cheese win....i got my *** handed to me by a lot of centurions thill i learnd how to doge them now i can win vs centurions with any caracter as long as i dont rush it and take my time coz 1 mistake and you ir dead since centurions have infinity combos light in to grab in to heavy in to punch in to kick in to light in to grab etc and you ir dead....

so the answer is that...people want a easy win...

People say the conqurer is trash i played vs a level 30 conq he was OP as hell the only way to beat hem was to w8 for hem to atack so i can parry hem in to free gb

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 11:34 PM
Shinobie is my main i love playing hem even do some times its pisses me off since some people can pretty much 3 hit you and you dead....raider in revenge can do 1 light in to heavy unblock and you ir dead people think he is trash now coz they cant spamm the kick...and they actualy need to think how to win not just spamm one move...that is why people now play raider...coz he is overbuffed and people abuse the charge and light in to unblocable its to easy to do and win....same thing with centurion people play caracters they find it easy to win with they dont like the challange of actualy gheting good with a caracter they like they just want the easy cheese win....i got my *** handed to me by a lot of centurions thill i learnd how to doge them now i can win vs centurions with any caracter as long as i dont rush it and take my time coz 1 mistake and you ir dead since centurions have infinity combos light in to grab in to heavy in to punch in to kick in to light in to grab etc and you ir dead....

so the answer is that...people want a easy win...

People say the conqurer is trash i played vs a level 30 conq he was OP as hell the only way to beat hem was to w8 for hem to atack so i can parry hem in to free gb

As I figured.
I personally don't think raider was over buffed.
and yeah a good conq is basically impossible to deal with unless they make a move you can punish.

as I mentioned in my other replies in this thread i think shin should receive an HP buff once the ptr changes drop. since he'll be the only hero that can eat a heavy almost every time he's parried/gbed from range. and OOS will super kill him.

XxHunterHxX
08-06-2017, 12:44 AM
As I figured.
I personally don't think raider was over buffed.
and yeah a good conq is basically impossible to deal with unless they make a move you can punish.

as I mentioned in my other replies in this thread i think shin should receive an HP buff once the ptr changes drop. since he'll be the only hero that can eat a heavy almost every time he's parried/gbed from range. and OOS will super kill him.

you think raider is not overbuffed ? then why did ubisoft ban players from using raider in the tournament ? yeah they said it has a "bug" never said what bug thats just bs

look at this and tell me its fine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDl6T9MxZFY

Knight_Raime
08-06-2017, 12:48 AM
you think raider is not overbuffed ? then why did ubisoft ban players from using raider in the tournament ? yeah they said it has a "bug" never said what bug thats just bs

look at this and tell me its fine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDl6T9MxZFY

I think everything done to raider in terms of buffs was fine until the recent one that lets you insta stampede.
I've seen that video already.
I have said just as other raider mains have said that the insta stampede should go.
But I have also stated that one cheesy tactic does not make a characters kit suddenly OP or broken.
that's like saying goki was amazingly strong back when he had his demon ball mix up.

So again to clarify. His stampede should be fixed. but the rest of him is perfectly fine.

XxHunterHxX
08-06-2017, 12:56 AM
I think everything done to raider in terms of buffs was fine until the recent one that lets you insta stampede.
I've seen that video already.
I have said just as other raider mains have said that the insta stampede should go.
But I have also stated that one cheesy tactic does not make a characters kit suddenly OP or broken.
that's like saying goki was amazingly strong back when he had his demon ball mix up.

So again to clarify. His stampede should be fixed. but the rest of him is perfectly fine.

that was my point to but i think that they kinda broke the game when they made all caracters with fast guard stance...now the game feels like anime mmorpg...rather then a epic medieval game....before you could feel the weight of your wepon and stuff now its feels like raider for example is using a bamboo stick rather then a heavy axe lol

Vakris_One
08-06-2017, 01:25 AM
Long story short, certain mediocre players want an easy win. When one of the characters that is overbuffed gets a nerf to bring them in line these players just move on to the next character that has been given an overbuff. They throw salt and trash everything that doesn't give them an easy way to push a metaphorical iWin button. They are kind of like locusts that move from field to field, selfishly gorging themselves while they leave nothing but desolation behind them as they move on to the next easy pickings.

You see them in every type of online game with PvP or even competitive PvE modes. They are the lowest common denominator of gamers, the parasitic types who just gorge themselves on exploiting every dev oversight and unintended mechanic to get that easy win until eventually they move on to another game to do the same. These pathetic individuals are a sad fact of online gaming. Best to just ignore their toxic screechings and go on with how you want to play.

Jiblet2017
08-06-2017, 09:38 PM
The only thing I have noticed after 7 reps on shinobi is that your ranged attacks/gb's (even with cancels) are a death sentence against most experienced players outside of a guaranteed follow up and a few slower characters (which he can recover and GB an incoming heavy from- which I don't agree with on a punish).

However, even with minimal use of range the shinobi has a pretty big kit and great deflects. Much of the frustration probably comes from moderate damage (outside of SR) and low health (which seems to be the point of the character).

That being said, in 4's against good players it is simply easier to pick cent and dominate without the risk of having your range (and therefore cc) regularly punished.

Simply my opinion- but i dont think shinobi is under-powered. He just has a high skill curve and is comparably much harder to excel with than a handful of the top (and often picked) classes.

Knight_Raime
08-06-2017, 09:49 PM
The only thing I have noticed after 7 reps on shinobi is that your ranged attacks/gb's (even with cancels) are a death sentence against most experienced players outside of a guaranteed follow up and a few slower characters (which he can recover and GB an incoming heavy from- which I don't agree with on a punish).

However, even with minimal use of range the shinobi has a pretty big kit and great deflects. Much of the frustration probably comes from moderate damage (outside of SR) and low health (which seems to be the point of the character).

That being said, in 4's against good players it is simply easier to pick cent and dominate without the risk of having your range (and therefore cc) regularly punished.

Simply my opinion- but i dont think shinobi is under-powered. He just has a high skill curve and is comparably much harder to excel with than a handful of the top (and often picked) classes.

Honestly being a centurion main I feel it's much easier for me to win with shinobi compared to centurion (in 1v1's.) I play aggressively. I don't turtle up like most cents do. And In matches against really good players I have to wait for them to slip up and punish them for it instead of taking the initiative.

Where as with shin I feel free to move anywhere I want when I want and choose when and how I want to fight before backflipping out. I even trashed on a high rep shug 2 nights ago (imo shins hardest matchup) him never laying a finger on me. It's why I originally stopped playing shinobi to be honest. he felt too easy VS other people if I actually tried.

UbiNoty
08-06-2017, 11:57 PM
Simply my opinion- but i dont think shinobi is under-powered. He just has a high skill curve and is comparably much harder to excel with than a handful of the top (and often picked) classes.

I think this appears to be quite an accurate description of Shinobi as a hero. And he's always been marketed as such - a high skill cap, squishy assassin. Early on after release he could spam kick/backflip, but once we changed the cooldowns on that and it couldn't be as easily abused it meant that players could no longer use that as a crutch. Once that happened, it was very easy to see who was actually able to utilize his kit to it's full potential and who fell short.

But at the same time, while I think it's a thing of beauty to see a high-skill hero being used properly by a high-skilled player - heroes do still need to be accessible to the majority of players on a certain level. And if his learning curve is so great that it's a barrier to him being used, then that is something we do need to address.

Alustar.
08-07-2017, 12:07 AM
I think this appears to be quite an accurate description of Shinobi as a hero. And he's always been marketed as such - a high skill cap, squishy assassin. Early on after release he could spam kick/backflip, but once we changed the cooldowns on that and it couldn't be as easily abused it meant that players could no longer use that as a crutch. Once that happened, it was very easy to see who was actually able to utilize his kit to it's full potential and who fell short.

But at the same time, while I think it's a thing of beauty to see a high-skill hero being used properly by a high-skilled player - heroes do still need to be accessible to the majority of players on a certain level. And if his learning curve is so great that it's a barrier to him being used, then that is something we do need to address.

Really the only reason I don't use him is because with 13rep levels on my PK it's hard not to fall into the muscle memory of what worked before. This isn't something I do with Shinobi either. Any character I pick I have to catch myself. "Bad alu this is NOT your peacekeeper!"

Jiblet2017
08-07-2017, 12:38 AM
Honestly being a centurion main I feel it's much easier for me to win with shinobi compared to centurion (in 1v1's.) I play aggressively. I don't turtle up like most cents do. And In matches against really good players I have to wait for them to slip up and punish them for it instead of taking the initiative.

Where as with shin I feel free to move anywhere I want when I want and choose when and how I want to fight before backflipping out. I even trashed on a high rep shug 2 nights ago (imo shins hardest matchup) him never laying a finger on me. It's why I originally stopped playing shinobi to be honest. he felt too easy VS other people if I actually tried.

I expereinced the same thing when i picked up centurion. He has tons of unsafe moves . . . However, Try playing cent defensively (in 1's- 4's you can play however you want within reason if you travel with a teammate). Once you switch to a parry/block oriented play style, your win rate will likely skyrocket (especially if you can parry approximately 25% or more lights and are used to feint games).

In Domin stand on a point and unless I get a coordinated effort against me, I unlock my feats and (often) hold the point the entire game. usually 5 or so minutes in with my max attack gear and hay maker, I am doing 130+ damage on a non-wall light parry (with charge into unlocked zone). Granted I spec attack and armor pen, It seems like this is where the hero's competitive advantage is - insane counterattacking nukes. After one of these combos, you have essentially won absent being extremely outplayed.

It seems like our experience is reflective of our preferred game modes (i have not played 1's heavily since CB), since cent's light and wall parry is much much weaker without stats and feats (I believe around 75-80 if utilizing unlocked zone). Without what is effectively a one-shot for most of the cast, the cent's shortcomings (such as low mobility) become much more noticeable.

TIP: if you are having trouble with shukogi as shinobi, always remember to chain lights in the same direction which guarantees broken armor. If you switch on the second, you effectively double your chances of getting parried or interrupted with a light.. Also, once shukogi commits to his charged heavy, always deflect as opposed to parry it. With deflect> kick> guaranteed range heavy, you are doing almost double the damage of a parry>gb. Never trade dash kicks (obviously). Lastly, the sprint slide is deceptively good if used correclty. If you time it between attacks, you will do one hit, end up behind, and be able to light before follow up (which can even be done between lights). I know you probably know this, just throwing it out there to see if it helps!

Knight_Raime
08-07-2017, 05:06 AM
I expereinced the same thing when i picked up centurion. He has tons of unsafe moves . . . However, Try playing cent defensively (in 1's- 4's you can play however you want within reason if you travel with a teammate). Once you switch to a parry/block oriented play style, your win rate will likely skyrocket (especially if you can parry approximately 25% or more lights and are used to feint games).

In Domin stand on a point and unless I get a coordinated effort against me, I unlock my feats and (often) hold the point the entire game. usually 5 or so minutes in with my max attack gear and hay maker, I am doing 130+ damage on a non-wall light parry (with charge into unlocked zone). Granted I spec attack and armor pen, It seems like this is where the hero's competitive advantage is - insane counterattacking nukes. After one of these combos, you have essentially won absent being extremely outplayed.

It seems like our experience is reflective of our preferred game modes (i have not played 1's heavily since CB), since cent's light and wall parry is much much weaker without stats and feats (I believe around 75-80 if utilizing unlocked zone). Without what is effectively a one-shot for most of the cast, the cent's shortcomings (such as low mobility) become much more noticeable.

TIP: if you are having trouble with shukogi as shinobi, always remember to chain lights in the same direction which guarantees broken armor. If you switch on the second, you effectively double your chances of getting parried or interrupted with a light.. Also, once shukogi commits to his charged heavy, always deflect as opposed to parry it. With deflect> kick> guaranteed range heavy, you are doing almost double the damage of a parry>gb. Never trade dash kicks (obviously). Lastly, the sprint slide is deceptively good if used correclty. If you time it between attacks, you will do one hit, end up behind, and be able to light before follow up (which can even be done between lights). I know you probably know this, just throwing it out there to see if it helps!

I mean I could. but that would involve me basically changing how I play to the core of my being. which would be difficult.
My W/L could be better (it's not bad mind you) if I did. but I wouldn't have fun anymore.

Also that's good to know. I had no idea that kick after deflect gave a guaranteed ranged heavy. I always assumed it's use was for environmental kills or to get someone OOS.

brashtralas
08-07-2017, 06:12 AM
Hahahaha

I love the candid talk of one-shorting people.

Wow, people.

SerArthur-Dayne
08-07-2017, 06:24 AM
REP 20 Shinobi here

Ive put 20 reps into shinobi, 15 into warden, 8 in orochi, prob about 10 into PK, 4ish into sensei kensei, 4ish again into zerker, and just a handfull scattered amoungst some of the others between PC and console ( and not one lvl into centurion!) . MY KD is still the lowest with shinobi and just above him is orochi. I have double the KD with warden, PK, zerk. Before you call me a bad player, I do have a 2.5 K/D with warden PK and the rest of the cast are pretty close too. I may not be up with the competition players but I think I can hold my own.

I pretty much know every single mixup variation and technique with shinobi, and reckon I could give some pretty good insight into him.

As a quick overview, I do feel he is a bit underpowered in 1v1, but in 1vX he is by far the worst hero in the entire game with no competition. The main problem with shinobi is he is excellent at stomping noobs (probably one of the best tbh) but as soon as you meet average/ good players, he becomes incredibly difficult because his whole kit relies on slinging in/out, and if you can block that (let alone parry it), you have pulled his whole kit out from under him. Ill put all my money down, you will never see him win a tourney.

This incredibly polarised opinion people have on shinobi, I think, is purely down to the lvl of players people are playing against. I think he both the bane of some peoples existance with lower K/D or maybe slower connections, or an absolute david and goliath struggle against great players.


Group fighting

--- Objectively speaking shinobi has the worst moveset for fighting a group of people in the game. Has the worst block and often hits just slip through if two enemies hit from the same side at staggered timing. You never see shinobi group plays in any of the top 10 vids around either.

--- His revenge is basically useless. 80% of the time I die about 0.5 seconds after activation.

--- Zone attack is very poor. Unlike zerkers (or any of the other assasins) which knocks people back and stuns them, is difficult to hit mid ZA, and cant be parried mid attack. Shinobi suffers from all of these, even with revenge people can still just top heavy you mid ZA without getting stunned. His ZA almost always gets parried too. ZA is one of the most important moves to keep players at bay, if you dont have a good ZA then you hero needs a way to dodge & attack at the same time.

---Only assasin that cant dodge & deal damage in one move, which reallly screws him over. Shinobis mobility is pretty gimmicky mobility because it dosent really amount to much. Whereas PK you can be a slipery weasel, orochi can ZA and SR and dodge attack, Zerker can ceep dodging and herding players at the same time, but shinobi cant really do much of anything because of his moveset.

---Gadgets are fairy poor with exceptions. Stealth=very Good, throwing stars are crap, and the last two yamaubi and unbi doobi or whatever basically are there as an attempt to offset the fact you get killed in two hits. You get them late in the game and they are fine, but most the time your first hit taken is your last. Zerker with both traps and throwing axe just demolishes these gadgets. I think throwing stars could use a buff ( maybe they could just stagger the enemy a few short steps further {for potential ledge kills} or reduce the cooldown timer a bit if you want to keep them weak)

--- Double dodge kick in a group always sees you eating a ton of damage by the other player or mostly both. ZA is poor. GB one enemy and kicking into the other isnt great because shibobis GB throw animation is one of the longest in the game. Quad-dash uses up so much stam and your not dealing any damage either. Sickle rain will see you eating a top heavy and is insta death. Deflect dosent stack damage and also takes like 13 seconds, its not really viable. Trying to throw out ranged attacks while just spam switching targets while rolling in/out mixed with double dash and deflects is pointless because both his roll/backflip have no i frames whatsoever, and also pretty much all attacks just heatseek you mid roll and fly 180 degrees to hit you.

---What your basically left with... is trying to get in the very odd jab light attack or running away.

Solution

---Starting with giving his flips I frames would be the first step to fixing it.

---Making his ZA unparryable at the end like zerkers, and giving it a better stun effect so players cant swing through it as easy would help. ( ideally it would be cool if he threw his kamas out for a bit of range or something)

---Possibly giving him a regular dodge attack into his kit would be ideal, like a dodge light attack or something.

1v1

--- A mile wide and an inch deep. A million tools and most become useless. Kick is laughed at by decent players, the only time kick is OK is when using the quad dash technique as you can play mind games for one heavy at the cost of the majority ofyour stam, but can still be punished of whiff. They should make the quad dash official imo.

--- Everymove he has relies on slinging in/out. If you can simply block that then you are essentially left fighting a sub par assasin with low health and no dodge attacks.

--- If you can parry them, then you basically win, or at least now have such a huge advantage you should be sweet.

--- Deflect is cool, but is broken currently, bleed woth refresh and also bleed wont stack on multiple deflect is a row! So I dont think is good.

--- Ranged GB.... HA!

--- Very poor feint game. Can feint the second ranged heavy....But... The first needs to land or whiff. Just too risky to throw out unless you know your fighting noobs. Can do basic feints like everyone else.

--- Has all the usual bread and butter moves you can do with other heroes just you now have tiny health and a janky "reflex guard'. feints into ZA (again prob get parried) GB-heavy- heavy feint-GB heavy + free light + backflip mixups (although thats getting nerfed, so there goes my best shinobi technique).

--- good lights (free light on successful hit) and decent damage, and the unofficial quad dash (double dash into GB too) is really his saving grace. Again not garbage in 1v1, but I personally put him at the bottom or close to it. Id be willing to put money on it that he will not be picked or win any compedative modes in his current state.

Honestly the best heroes just have a few good tools- high HP- and good damage. I think shinobi has the lowest skill ceiling of the assasins. My thoughts on it anyway.

Im throwing in the towel regardless, gonna go play highlander once hes out. Cant wait.

Knight_Raime
08-07-2017, 11:40 AM
REP 20 Shinobi here

Ive put 20 reps into shinobi, 15 into warden, 8 in orochi, prob about 10 into PK, 4ish into sensei kensei, 4ish again into zerker, and just a handfull scattered amoungst some of the others between PC and console ( and not one lvl into centurion!) . MY KD is still the lowest with shinobi and just above him is orochi. I have double the KD with warden, PK, zerk. Before you call me a bad player, I do have a 2.5 K/D with warden PK and the rest of the cast are pretty close too. I may not be up with the competition players but I think I can hold my own.

I pretty much know every single mixup variation and technique with shinobi, and reckon I could give some pretty good insight into him.

As a quick overview, I do feel he is a bit underpowered in 1v1, but in 1vX he is by far the worst hero in the entire game with no competition. The main problem with shinobi is he is excellent at stomping noobs (probably one of the best tbh) but as soon as you meet average/ good players, he becomes incredibly difficult because his whole kit relies on slinging in/out, and if you can block that (let alone parry it), you have pulled his whole kit out from under him. Ill put all my money down, you will never see him win a tourney.

This incredibly polarised opinion people have on shinobi, I think, is purely down to the lvl of players people are playing against. I think he both the bane of some peoples existance with lower K/D or maybe slower connections, or an absolute david and goliath struggle against great players.


Group fighting

--- Objectively speaking shinobi has the worst moveset for fighting a group of people in the game. Has the worst block and often hits just slip through if two enemies hit from the same side at staggered timing. You never see shinobi group plays in any of the top 10 vids around either.

--- His revenge is basically useless. 80% of the time I die about 0.5 seconds after activation.

--- Zone attack is very poor. Unlike zerkers (or any of the other assasins) which knocks people back and stuns them, is difficult to hit mid ZA, and cant be parried mid attack. Shinobi suffers from all of these, even with revenge people can still just top heavy you mid ZA without getting stunned. His ZA almost always gets parried too. ZA is one of the most important moves to keep players at bay, if you dont have a good ZA then you hero needs a way to dodge & attack at the same time.

---Only assasin that cant dodge & deal damage in one move, which reallly screws him over. Shinobis mobility is pretty gimmicky mobility because it dosent really amount to much. Whereas PK you can be a slipery weasel, orochi can ZA and SR and dodge attack, Zerker can ceep dodging and herding players at the same time, but shinobi cant really do much of anything because of his moveset.

---Gadgets are fairy poor with exceptions. Stealth=very Good, throwing stars are crap, and the last two yamaubi and unbi doobi or whatever basically are there as an attempt to offset the fact you get killed in two hits. You get them late in the game and they are fine, but most the time your first hit taken is your last. Zerker with both traps and throwing axe just demolishes these gadgets. I think throwing stars could use a buff ( maybe they could just stagger the enemy a few short steps further {for potential ledge kills} or reduce the cooldown timer a bit if you want to keep them weak)

--- Double dodge kick in a group always sees you eating a ton of damage by the other player or mostly both. ZA is poor. GB one enemy and kicking into the other isnt great because shibobis GB throw animation is one of the longest in the game. Quad-dash uses up so much stam and your not dealing any damage either. Sickle rain will see you eating a top heavy and is insta death. Deflect dosent stack damage and also takes like 13 seconds, its not really viable. Trying to throw out ranged attacks while just spam switching targets while rolling in/out mixed with double dash and deflects is pointless because both his roll/backflip have no i frames whatsoever, and also pretty much all attacks just heatseek you mid roll and fly 180 degrees to hit you.

---What your basically left with... is trying to get in the very odd jab light attack or running away.

Solution

---Starting with giving his flips I frames would be the first step to fixing it.

---Making his ZA unparryable at the end like zerkers, and giving it a better stun effect so players cant swing through it as easy would help. ( ideally it would be cool if he threw his kamas out for a bit of range or something)

---Possibly giving him a regular dodge attack into his kit would be ideal, like a dodge light attack or something.

1v1

--- A mile wide and an inch deep. A million tools and most become useless. Kick is laughed at by decent players, the only time kick is OK is when using the quad dash technique as you can play mind games for one heavy at the cost of the majority ofyour stam, but can still be punished of whiff. They should make the quad dash official imo.

--- Everymove he has relies on slinging in/out. If you can simply block that then you are essentially left fighting a sub par assasin with low health and no dodge attacks.

--- If you can parry them, then you basically win, or at least now have such a huge advantage you should be sweet.

--- Deflect is cool, but is broken currently, bleed woth refresh and also bleed wont stack on multiple deflect is a row! So I dont think is good.

--- Ranged GB.... HA!

--- Very poor feint game. Can feint the second ranged heavy....But... The first needs to land or whiff. Just too risky to throw out unless you know your fighting noobs. Can do basic feints like everyone else.

--- Has all the usual bread and butter moves you can do with other heroes just you now have tiny health and a janky "reflex guard'. feints into ZA (again prob get parried) GB-heavy- heavy feint-GB heavy + free light + backflip mixups (although thats getting nerfed, so there goes my best shinobi technique).

--- good lights (free light on successful hit) and decent damage, and the unofficial quad dash (double dash into GB too) is really his saving grace. Again not garbage in 1v1, but I personally put him at the bottom or close to it. Id be willing to put money on it that he will not be picked or win any compedative modes in his current state.

Honestly the best heroes just have a few good tools- high HP- and good damage. I think shinobi has the lowest skill ceiling of the assasins. My thoughts on it anyway.

Im throwing in the towel regardless, gonna go play highlander once hes out. Cant wait.

I appreciate the detailed feedback. I can't really comment on what he's like in 4v4 as I don't really play 4v4.

However in 1v1 i'll have to disagree.
most of his things swing both ways.

Like you can say his ranged attacks are garbage and net getting hit by a heavy. However he's got priority on wake up. meaning he can turn right around and punish the person who punished him.
Or like how you say his DD into kick is easily dodged. but if you use it to dodge an attack the kick is always given.
Deflect into kick gives a ranged heavy always as well.
You can spam feint his ranged attack so they don't know which one you're going to throw out.
etc.

I don't know. I get how he can feel weak with no good safe spam move. and a bad zone. but I don't really struggle fighting people as shinobi in duels. and I generally fight pretty competent players.

kweassa1
08-07-2017, 04:10 PM
If I shorten my previous explanation, Shibs in 4v4 handle a lot more different than Shibs in 1v1, and another mediating factor is that most people that comment about these stuff in forums aren't exactly too knowledgeable when it comes to Shib tactics.

Like, I can bet that most people don't even know just how high the Shib potential goes in 1v1. The way I like to describe it is that the Shib is a speedier, faster version of the Warlord. His tactics are actually really similar except for a few details. In other words, playing the Shib to its full combat potential requires a very sturdy and rock-solid basic skillset and experience. In 1v1 Shibs are played out slower, always carefully managing that "distance" that the Shib's got the advantage over the other guy, and really doesn't use all that flashy techniques and stuff at all. You know this. Always maintain that distance, occasional light probes if he feels safe, and drawing and luring out opponent reaction with dodges and DDodges and punishing upon reaction. This kind of combat management takes skill, especially with the base HP so low.

The thing is, in 4v4 most people don't know that. They play way to hastily and just spam attacks like there's no tomorrow, and that used to work well when the kick-heavy was both tougher to dodge and easier to spam. And since they really don't have any of the basic defense skills, they can't trut their own skill to be fighting in close quarters in a careful, drawn out combat -- so they just run around, see a gank opportunity, and then jump in and start spamming attacks in that gank.

We're simply talking about how popular perception is often formed upon very low expectations and skill level to realize any higher potential, and its just that sort of case with the Shinobi. Since most Shinobis are like that in Dominion, the popular perception now is that "it sucks". More of a liability in a 4v4 game rather than any asset, because with the exception of the running speed, the PK has everything better -- more HP and damage reduction feat, exceptionally useful feat skills like bombs and catapults, etc etc..

I mean, even myself, when I enter dominion and see either an orochi or a shinobi in my team, I kinda enter nirvana and just ready myself for a losing game... because the odds are, if I get a shinobi as a teammate 20 times, only 1 of those instance will be a very talented shinobi player that really helps a lot. The other 19 are usually shinobis that buzz around like a mosquito, and then get killed like one in some obscure corner of the map and constantly pinging for revives. :rolleyes:

Existentialmeme
08-07-2017, 05:41 PM
Shinobis are not meant to handle ganks people... He has the speed to get out of group fights and therefore that should always be your first choice when you see mutiple people coming at you.

In 2v1 situations, you could actually try to stand on your own, but it is really hard. first you have to know your opponent's positions at all times, and use your speed and target switch to your advantage.

In 1v1s, you really need to know your opponent's skill to be able to fight them well with Shinobi. Against decent players that can dodge the kick easily and parry or counter ranged gb easily, you need to rely on mixups, feints and your positioning. the ranged gb is a good way to catch people who're dodging excessively, kick is a good counter against attacks, most of the time they would not have the time to dodge the kick right after an attack

AzureSky.
08-07-2017, 10:50 PM
Because he is a extreme case of High risk / High reward, but really extreme, yeah you can do a lot of things and you ALWAYS have the initiative on all the moves (since you are the most dodge oriented character with fast attacks and different mixups, also the dodge ms is really low) but the health pool.... yeah he can work in 1vs1 and sometimes 2vs2, but he sucks at 4vs4, the gear makes it so you can nearly oneshot shinobis.

IMO its a pain to deal with, centurion is not a problem (for me) but a shinobi.... he dont have bad points if you know how to use him, you need to play reactionary almost all the time if you play a 600ms+ attacks character.

TheTKOShow
08-07-2017, 11:16 PM
Omg stay at range and feint your range attacks. If anyone gets close lights to back flip.

And why are shinobi changing guard on second light, don't change and it's free.

Guard break hvy hvy feint guard break hvy light

TheTKOShow
08-07-2017, 11:43 PM
I really loath the kick nerf, he is a ninja of corse he should be able to kick
His zone could use either a cancel or like
The zerk leave the guard broken.

UbiJurassic
08-08-2017, 01:27 AM
I really loath the kick nerf, he is a ninja of corse he should be able to kick
His zone could use either a cancel or like
The zerk leave the guard broken.

The stamina increase and startup times on the kick was to discourage constant use of the move and to make it a bit more punishable for players. The nerf definitely makes a Shinobi think twice about stamina management and utilizing other parts of their kit.