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View Full Version : Defensive meta - Let's talk about the dodge



Tyrjo
08-04-2017, 07:18 AM
The dodge move has not really been discussed in regards to the defensive meta. General block turtling and the parry has been the hot topic.

In my opinion, dodging is a form of turtling as well. If chip on block is introduced and the parry reward is nerfed, the dodge suddenly becomes an even more attractive defensive option.


How come the dodge doesn't cost any stamina?

How come it doesn't give the dodgee a recovery time on stamina regen?

Maybe it should?


Dodging (when out of GB distance of course) is the perfect defensive move when there is an incoming attack, just dodge back. It costs the hero doing it nothing, yet the attacker pay with their stamina. On many occasions I have even seen the the longer weapons pass (Nobushi, Lawbringer, Shugoki, Valkyrie, Raider) through the dodging hero when I think it should have registered hit. Has anyone else noticed this?

I would like to hear some official word if the dodge actually is supposed to be a defensive super move or not.

I am pretty sure all you assassin mains are going to scurry into this thread. All I hope is that you stay objective, civil and not start getting all apologetic. Think of what is best for the game, not for you personally.

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 09:47 AM
Dodging on the pts just like blocking an attack temp pauses your stamina gen.
So people who excessively dodge to evade attacks/gb's will be punished for it.

CandleInTheDark
08-04-2017, 10:07 AM
In terms of weapons passing through people dodging, that is down to invincibility frames, which is quite standard in games, essentially it means they dodged it but there isn't an animation showing them jumping over or ducking under or contorting their body to avoid it because of all the different things you would need to do that around.

I don't recall if they said anything about how dodge affects you in regular stamina, but they made it harder in out of stamina state, as Knight_Raime said, the dodge pauses your stamina regen and in out of stamina, dodge is no longer the same speed as it is in stamina. Assuming that the stamina stuff goes through of course.

Alustar.
08-04-2017, 10:48 AM
If dodging costed stamina the only classes who would really suffer for it the most are the assassin classes since a portion of their while kit relies on deflect. Not to mention the Valk and kensei would then have issues.

Tyrjo
08-04-2017, 11:28 AM
If dodging costed stamina the only classes who would really suffer for it the most are the assassin classes since a portion of their while kit relies on deflect. Not to mention the Valk and kensei would then have issues.

Yes, this is exactly my point. A nerf to block, through chip damage, and nerf to the parry reward make the classes who rely on those mechanics suffer more. A small stamina cost to dodge, say like 5 stamina, would balance it out and dodging around like a high ferret would penalize the player doing that.

swordxsmash
08-04-2017, 11:40 AM
Well dodging also depends on the hero your working with..And actually....It could really annoying when dodging doesn't work with stunning unless your dodging backwards and scientifically its the same so why stunning catches your dodge?????????

Sneaky-Patches
08-04-2017, 11:42 AM
Well I heavily rely on dodging all over the place as shinobi, and I've found it's really the only way to try and keep up with some of the better heroes. I don't like this paused stam on dodge, as it's going to throw my play style in the bin, let alone if it actually cost stam to dodge.

Tyrjo
08-04-2017, 11:45 AM
Well I heavily rely on dodging all over the place as shinobi, and I've found it's really the only way to try and keep up with some of the better heroes. I don't like this paused stam on dodge, as it's going to throw my play style in the bin, let alone if it actually cost stam to dodge.

I understand Shinobi relies on dodge a lot. Maybe it could be a perk for the Shinobi that dodge doesn't cost stamina?

CandleInTheDark
08-04-2017, 12:12 PM
Here is the thing that would concern me, if they further nerf pk dodge attacks, not to mention deflect,which this would do in one go, it's just another reason some will feel their best bet is to stand there and flick out lights. As a pk main I honestly don't want that.

At this point they have nerfed her entire kit except deflect, her heavies, the heavy to light soft cancel which doesn't do much to begin with other than interrupt a parry attempt for a small amount of bleed and the speed and damage of her lights which is what people were complaining about and where they should have started, this change would indirectly nerf her deflect. People are still calling out for peacekeeper nerfs but honestly it is at the point where if they nerf anything else, including an indirect nerf as this would be, they need to start thinking about giving something back to her, whether damage they took off of dodge attacks or more to something like the heavy to light soft cancel.

Alustar.
08-04-2017, 03:43 PM
Yes, this is exactly my point. A nerf to block, through chip damage, and nerf to the parry reward make the classes who rely on those mechanics suffer more. A small stamina cost to dodge, say like 5 stamina, would balance it out and dodging around like a high ferret would penalize the player doing that.

Ok, that is stupid, you seriously want to cut your own leg off just to make an already squishy class even more prone to melee heavy characters. Like I get the complaint, you run heavy classes and smaller dodgy ones give you trouble, but you've got to understand, the assassin mobility is literally the only tool they have right now that keeps them alive against the other classes. Outside of Shinobi none of them have access to spammable CC or unblockables, yet people still complain about them. If it's not their attack speed, it's their bleeds, if it's not bleeds it's zone attacks, if it's not zone attacks it's wall combos, if it's not wall combos it's dodging.

If you want a sure fire way to turn for honor from the fast paced, medieval fighter that it is now into another Dark souls clone, go for it, just don't complain when your OoS for half any fight cause you thought stamina costs on dodge was a great idea.


Here is the thing that would concern me, if they further nerf pk dodge attacks, not to mention deflect,which this would do in one go, it's just another reason some will feel their best bet is to stand there and flick out lights. As a pk main I honestly don't want that.

At this point they have nerfed her entire kit except deflect, her heavies, the heavy to light soft cancel which doesn't do much to begin with other than interrupt a parry attempt for a small amount of bleed and the speed and damage of her lights which is what people were complaining about and where they should have started, this change would indirectly nerf her deflect. People are still calling out for peacekeeper nerfs but honestly it is at the point where if they nerf anything else, including an indirect nerf as this would be, they need to start thinking about giving something back to her, whether damage they took off of dodge attacks or more to something like the heavy to light soft cancel.

Also this.

Netcode_err_404
08-04-2017, 04:04 PM
Yes lets talk about dodge and how on ptr assassins even in OOS are unpunishable, because their dodge covers twice the distance of a non assassin class.

CandleInTheDark
08-04-2017, 04:11 PM
Yes lets talk about dodge and how on ptr assassins even in OOS are unpunishable, because their dodge covers twice the distance of a non assassin class.

Hey I am not arguing they should be unpunishable in OOS, I haven't played PTS so I don't know the state there, what I am saying is that if you're going to nerf everything in a kit except what had people annoyed in the first place, and bearing in mind that I have been arguing light spam needs dealing with from the beginning, then making further nerfs, which still don't address what ticks everyone off, then eventually maybe still getting to that later, they need to give a little back. Because if this suggestion goes through,they will have nerfed everything that does damage and has a chance of hitting except what people have been shouting about with most of those going to more viable parts of her kit than double light. What's that going to encourage people looking for an easy win to do? Especially with chip damage buffs.

Tyrjo
08-04-2017, 05:10 PM
Here is the thing that would concern me, if they further nerf pk dodge attacks, not to mention deflect,which this would do in one go, it's just another reason some will feel their best bet is to stand there and flick out lights. As a pk main I honestly don't want that.


The topic is regarding the regular dodge. I don't mean that dodge attacks should cost more, they already cost stamina and they are fine. It's the constant dodge spamming that kind of removes the tactical element of playing and it's defensive properties gets skewed in comparison to the suggested introduction of chip damage and parry reward nerf.


Ok, that is stupid, you seriously want to cut your own leg off just to make an already squishy class even more prone to melee heavy characters. Like I get the complaint, you run heavy classes and smaller dodgy ones give you trouble, but you've got to understand, the assassin mobility is literally the only tool they have right now that keeps them alive against the other classes. Outside of Shinobi none of them have access to spammable CC or unblockables, yet people still complain about them. If it's not their attack speed, it's their bleeds, if it's not bleeds it's zone attacks, if it's not zone attacks it's wall combos, if it's not wall combos it's dodging.

If you want a sure fire way to turn for honor from the fast paced, medieval fighter that it is now into another Dark souls clone, go for it, just don't complain when your OoS for half any fight cause you thought stamina costs on dodge was a great idea.


I'm not sure you really read my whole post. I'm pitting the dodge against the proposed changes (PTS) to blocking and parry reward, which are a nerf to heroes that rely on block and parry. If dodge goes untouched, in relation to block and parry nerf, it is a buff to heroes who rely on dodge rather than block or parry.

If the changes block and parry changes don't go through I'm happy with dodge being free of stamina cost.

CandleInTheDark
08-04-2017, 05:14 PM
The topic is regarding the regular dodge. I don't mean that dodge attacks should cost more, they already cost stamina and they are fine. It's the constant dodge spamming that kind of removes the tactical element of playing and it's defensive properties gets skewed in comparison to the suggested introduction of chip damage and parry reward nerf.

That is the thing though, dodge attacks would cost more because you would first pay the stam cost for the dodge then for the attack. And again it is an indirect nerf to deflect through adding stamina cost which is the only viable source of damage, other than double lights which is what people have complained about from the beginning, which has not been nerfed.

As to the cost of blocking, I kind of feel that those who rely more on blocking tend to have more hp to begin with so it is swings and roundabouts in that regard.

Netcode_err_404
08-04-2017, 05:23 PM
Hey I am not arguing they should be unpunishable in OOS, I haven't played PTS so I don't know the state there, what I am saying is that if you're going to nerf everything in a kit except what had people annoyed in the first place, and bearing in mind that I have been arguing light spam needs dealing with from the beginning, then making further nerfs, which still don't address what ticks everyone off, then eventually maybe still getting to that later, they need to give a little back. Because if this suggestion goes through,they will have nerfed everything that does damage and has a chance of hitting except what people have been shouting about with most of those going to more viable parts of her kit than double light. What's that going to encourage people looking for an easy win to do? Especially with chip damage buffs.



If we are talking about PK, i've already said, that this class needs a major rework.


IDk if her kit is meh, it probably is, because i have yet to see a pk, that doesn't :

1) Light spam

2) Heavy feint into more light spam

3)Za.



So i've asked pk mains ( honest players, not drones) to make a long post about pk changes.




What I know for sure is, on ptr even in OOS, pk is not punishable. Still too fast,

CandleInTheDark
08-04-2017, 05:25 PM
If we are talking about PK, i've already said, that this class needs a major rework.


IDk if her kit is meh, it probably is, because i have yet to see a pk, that doesn't :

1) Light spam

2) Heavy feint into more light spam

3)Za.



So i've asked pk mains ( honest players, not drones) to make a long post about pk changes.




What I know for sure is, on ptr even in OOS, pk is not punishable. Still too fast,

Oddly enough someone asked me today on reddit for tips on good fair ways to peacekeeper since we were talking about this (and by the by I don't do as you said and we saw someone on the premiere who didn't though he got wrecked with how strong parry is), so I'll paste from there.

---

Bearing in mind I am not high elo, at least part of that being because my fine motor dexterity has always been bad (certainly isn't time spent on the game at fault >.>) I tend to use her side dodge attacks with deep gouge which I have the timing down for to punish whiffed attacks, warlords, conqs, wardens, centurions, all of their charging or melee attacks are vulnerable to this. If someone is sending out heavies without care, that is deflect bait though you have to be careful they are not trying to draw you to do just that. Other than that you have her soft cancels, I occasionally feint a heavy to try the heavy-heavy chain which on console I have pulled off a few times but if they look to dodge, that leaves them open to a guardbreak cancel, if they try to parry, the light soft cancel will interrupt that. If they are doing nothing but blocking you need to try gbs, preferably off a soft cancel as it sends up the indicator before. Generally the way I play is to try and keep the bleed clock going though some people will still consider that cheap if you do not engage when you can see they are going to die from it, in my eyes that is using her kit rather than light-light, why am I going to risk dying when I just have to live for another five seconds?

Closer to the line, there is feinting the heavy at the end of her light-light-heavy chain to land another couple of lights, while I feel that is slightly more legitimate than the spam, with most other characters it would be considered good play, it still takes advantage of those initial lights being quick and you exchange stamina for being a few frames quicker than the next time you can double light so I never felt really comfortable doing that.

In terms of making the most of attacks, you need the timing down for the deep gouge light after a heavy hit, the light for the deflect and, especially after the heavy nerf the first two stabs received, for getting all three of her stabs on guardbreak.

---

As to reworking the peacekeeper, I would want them to put more emphasis on her kit and her status as a counter attacker.

I have long held that counter attackers should not be getting massively safe openers, I include the peacekeeper in this, I would prefer that her lights be if not the same as others (my preference) then not as much quicker as they are, in exchange for this then I think that the stuff in her kit needs to be more viable, rewarding the peacekeeper for reading the opponent, reacting and counter attacking, starting with the riskiest, her deflect, and maybe giving a little love to her heavy to light soft cancel as currently it is a parry interrupter and is useful really only for keeping the bleed clock going otherwise. She has a soft cancel kit that could potentially be very strong but they have nerfed the more dominant part of that and the other is underwhelming in terms of damage, dodge is the other way in which she counter attacks whether a heavy or the deflect, again they nerfed the dominant part of that and a stamina cost to dodge would nerf the other making light-light the only thing that hasn't been nerfed outside of heavies and light cancel. Keep the zone quick as a surprise attack but make it cost enough stamina that you get maybe a light and the cancel into bleed along with that before going into OOS.

If they are insistent on keeping the second attack at the speed it is at, I would probably say keep the damage the same but make it bleed, this way you are keeping the bleed counter going and the opponent isn't immediately half dead, especially since there is the cap to bleeding damage which in a way lessens the rewards of spam. Can't take credit for that idea but it is better than the current state in my view.

Outside of this, I'm not experienced in game balance, I would probably say no unblockable for the same reasoning I would have preferred the lights to be slower, outside that I don't know. But if you want the reason most people spam, that would be other than making them need to feint to get more than two lights in with the recovery nerf, they have nerfed nearly everything except what people were complaining about in the first place, another part of it was as I said over the premiere, parry currently wrecks the other most common method.

Alustar.
08-04-2017, 05:28 PM
That is the thing though, dodge attacks would cost more because you would first pay the stam cost for the dodge then for the attack. And again it is an indirect nerf to deflect through adding stamina cost which is the only viable source of damage, other than double lights which is what people have complained about from the beginning, which has not been nerfed.

This highlights the concerns of assassins the best. Let's not forget constantly dodging will negate stamina regeneration period, so there is already a nerf to it that eliminates the ability to spam dodge effectively. If you want dodging to cost stamina then blocking should too. Then all we have is attack spamming to break someone into OoS put them on the ground and smash them.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
08-04-2017, 08:44 PM
I'm a PK main, and i cant agree with having a stamina cost or pause for heroes for the sole reason that if a Centurion exhausts you, the duel is pretty much over. Absolutely no chance of recovery, there's already a high chance a Cent will win without a penalty to dodge if you're exhausted. This may be a very situational case but the game really doesn't need an incentive for more Centurions.

I do agree that there are a few attacks, maybe more that i am able to phase through when i dodge early (certain sweeping attacks as opposed to top down strikes)

D3dicatedSrv3rz
08-04-2017, 09:00 PM
If we are talking about PK, i've already said, that this class needs a major rework.


IDk if her kit is meh, it probably is, because i have yet to see a pk, that doesn't :

1) Light spam

2) Heavy feint into more light spam

3)Za.



So i've asked pk mains ( honest players, not drones) to make a long post about pk changes.




What I know for sure is, on ptr even in OOS, pk is not punishable. Still too fast,

We don't have much except for our lights.Our heavy is probably the slowest in the game for the reason that cant be used on a GB with our deep gouge bleed, she has no unblockables save her deflect which i consider inferior to other assassins as its the only deflect that doesn't break uninterruptible combos (the berserker's for instance)and her side dodge is the weakest of the assassins as its the only one that is side dodge-able

Alustar.
08-04-2017, 10:21 PM
We don't have much except for our lights.Our heavy is probably the slowest in the game for the reason that cant be used on a GB with our deep gouge bleed, she has no unblockables save her deflect which i consider inferior to other assassins as its the only deflect that doesn't break uninterruptible combos (the berserker's for instance)and her side dodge is the weakest of the assassins as its the only one that is side dodge-able

This is another true statement. People who complain about PK obviously have never tried to actually play the class.
Error, Go out into a live game and try and get a win without using any of the "broken" moves in her kit you just pointed out and see how you do. the ONLY things that makes the PK that great are her speed and bleeds, she's and incredibly predictable class if not used properly. Which btw if you are using the PK the way she is meant to be, yeah from your perspective all you saw were a series of fast light hits. But if you saw from my perspective, you'd have seen the soft feint into a bleed then light heavy feint light light dodge stab bleed light light heavy feint grab stab stab stabiddy stab. It's a dance. A very bloody dance.


Edit:
I'd also like to say that the main complaints can me from those that play non-assassin classes, classes that have constant guard on one flank. What this tells me is you have a 50/50 chance of getting Hit from side and you can't even guess correctly?

UbiNoty
08-04-2017, 11:46 PM
On the PT, to alleviate the issues of excessive dodging what we did is we paused stamina regen. So if all you do is dodge, you will never be able to regenerate your stamina. You won't lose stamina, because we don't want to punish players who are skillfully dodging attacks, but we also don't want to reward the stay-away playstyle - so we paused it. It's all listed here under the Stamina header (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-296526-16/public-test-meta-changes).

Keep in mind these aren't final, but it's very likely that these will be introduced at some point later in S3.

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 12:16 AM
Assassins still dodge to fast.

Try to punish a pk with a shugoki or a LB.

Almost impossible.

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 01:28 AM
Assassins still dodge to fast.

Try to punish a pk with a shugoki or a LB.

Almost impossible.

This a non starter because at a certain point against either of them the PK still has to come in close to attack. Lawbringer is an excellent grappler and counter attacker so what are you doing trying to strike first. Shugoki has hyper armor and, while slow has excellent utility in the right hands. Know your strengths/limitations before and the match ups might turn in your favor.

Btw just so you are aware assassins are supposed to be fast and mobile. That's the trade off with less health/defensive pools.

Linnix1
08-05-2017, 01:44 AM
Ahh yes all of lbs counter attack moves. The unblockables that just get parried and lb loses all of his stamina cause of it simply perfect

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 02:01 AM
Ahh yes all of lbs counter attack moves. The unblockables that just get parried and lb loses all of his stamina cause of it simply perfect

Sure let's go through more hyprothetical ways that support your opinion rather than actually address the issue at hand with logic and reason.

Your telling me simply that you want to be able to indiscriminately wail on an assassin and there should be no recourse but to stay still and take it?

Cause that's what I'm seeing. If you are getting dodged frequently and then countered maybe you should adjust the way you are playing. Tell me where is the logic of wildly swinging at an opponent who's entire build is designed to counter your move and turn the momentum of combat against you?

Linnix1
08-05-2017, 02:50 AM
No you said lb is great at counter attacks. Which is a flat out lie. I never said flailing wildly anywhere in my post don't put words in my mouth or I'll but that damn hand off. If your going to make a argument make sure it's actually real. Lbs counter moves are a damn joke. It's not a hypothetical that they'll get parried it's a fact cause there so damn slow.

UbiNoty
08-05-2017, 02:54 AM
Let's remember to keep things civil here guys. Whether you agree or disagree with what others said, let's make the forums an open place for discussion and be mindful and respectful of one another. Take this as a gentle reminder and keep that in mind when you post in the future because I don't enjoy giving out infractions.

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 03:12 AM
No you said lb is great at counter attacks. Which is a flat out lie. I never said flailing wildly anywhere in my post don't put words in my mouth or I'll but that damn hand off. If your going to make a argument make sure it's actually real. Lbs counter moves are a damn joke. It's not a hypothetical that they'll get parried it's a fact cause there so damn slow.

Not to sure how a counter move gets parried, that defeats the whole nature of a counter move. So either you a) don't understand what a counter move is, or b) aren't doing it properly. And yes a Lawbringer is a great counter attacker.

If you want to actually discuss ways of working around the dodging capabilities of assassins I'm free to give advice, otherwise sitting here whining that you can't hit someone with your big stick isn't going to help you in that regard.

Linnix1
08-05-2017, 03:12 AM
And how many posts have you removed cause the person didn't agree with how Ubi is handling for honor. At least be honest norty

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 04:12 AM
This a non starter because at a certain point against either of them the PK still has to come in close to attack. Lawbringer is an excellent grappler and counter attacker so what are you doing trying to strike first. Shugoki has hyper armor and, while slow has excellent utility in the right hands. Know your strengths/limitations before and the match ups might turn in your favor.

Btw just so you are aware assassins are supposed to be fast and mobile. That's the trade off with less health/defensive pools.

1) I was speaking about OOS assassin that are NOT punishable in any way. Even on ptr they are too fast with each dodge.



2) LB cannot punish an OOS assassin. Shove is too slow, and JJE rrequires a full combo of a 600 ms light and 2 900 ms heavies.


3) Shugokis' armor is useless if you cannot hit them. And punishing a OOs pk with shugoki is just NOT possible, a single back dodge will avoid both the fullheavy and his GB if feinted, so gg.


4) With gear OOS state lasts 2 seconds.

Blind justice is useless, in ptr it gets parried no matter if you parried a heavy or a light. With an upcoming change they will make it feintable, LOL,

UbiNoty
08-05-2017, 05:20 AM
And how many posts have you removed cause the person didn't agree with how Ubi is handling for honor. At least be honest norty

I can say with complete certainty - absolutely none.

I've never removed a post unless it was straight up a malicious piece of nastiness directed at another community member. We understand that your opinions may differ from ours, and that you may not always agree with everything we do - but we've never tried to silence anyone in any way. In fact we encourage you to raise your differences of opinion and criticisms of us - that's how we can look to improve after all - we just ask that you do it in a way that is constructive. We give you all a ton of freedom to say what you want, and how you want - a lot more than many of the other sub-forums in fact.

I may give infractions for egregiously breaking forum rules, close threads that have dissolved into flame wars between community members, but I've never removed a post because the content was critical of our actions and choices.

If you ever feel I've overstepped my boundaries as a forum mod, then please feel free to contact me, or any of the other mods.

CheekyKemosabe
08-05-2017, 06:03 AM
All the turtles panicking because they can't have their staring contests anymore. This is gonna be a hell of a season! :cool:

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 09:16 AM
So yeah I guess an actual discussion isn't going to take place. Cool story, Error. First off back dodging while OoS isn't something exclusive to assassin characters. Everyone can do it, and none of the PTR changes are going live yet.

Tyrjo
08-05-2017, 10:52 AM
On the PT, to alleviate the issues of excessive dodging what we did is we paused stamina regen. So if all you do is dodge, you will never be able to regenerate your stamina. You won't lose stamina, because we don't want to punish players who are skillfully dodging attacks, but we also don't want to reward the stay-away playstyle - so we paused it. It's all listed here under the Stamina header (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-296526-16/public-test-meta-changes).

Keep in mind these aren't final, but it's very likely that these will be introduced at some point later in S3.

This sounds like a very good change.

kweassa1
08-05-2017, 10:58 AM
I really need to see how it handles in regular games after season3 starts, before I can make up my mind.

So far, judging by the PTS experience the stamregen halt during dodges seem to be adequate.

CandleInTheDark
08-05-2017, 11:11 AM
Error, I cant help noticing that I not only answered your assertion that all peacekeepers do is light spam, feint for more light spam and ZA both in how I play and how we saw someone else play on the premiere, I also answered your point about if the class needs reworking how would peacekeeper mains do it with my own thoughts on it as a starting point and you ignored that in favour of a gripe over something unrelated.

So...um, are you here to seriously discuss things or just complain? Not even about answering my post now, honestly don't care, I am just curious as to how much effort I should put into things.


And how many posts have you removed cause the person didn't agree with how Ubi is handling for honor. At least be honest norty

I've been here since February (darn thing says March but it was still round one when I joined, I know I changed my display name from my ubisoft account name to my xbox handle in march), I can honestly say that while the reps have locked threads that have devolved into flaming or started off as trolling in the first place (like how the hell are they expected to answer someone posting pictures of him breaking his disc and writing ubinazis on the case?) but I have generally been on at the times the reps are, I have never seen any outright deleted other than spambots with streaming links and posts offering advice on illegal services.

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 11:53 AM
So yeah I guess an actual discussion isn't going to take place. Cool story, Error. First off back dodging while OoS isn't something exclusive to assassin characters. Everyone can do it, and none of the PTR changes are going live yet.

Cool indeed from a console player who didn't play PTR.

Cool indeed talking about stuff that you don't know at all, because you are on console.

"back dodging while OoS isn't something exclusive to assassin"

LOL

Because an OOS shugoki is exactly as fast as an OOS orochi ROFL

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 12:22 PM
Cool indeed from a console player who didn't play PTR.

Cool indeed talking about stuff that you don't know at all, because you are on console.

"back dodging while OoS isn't something exclusive to assassin"

LOL

Because an OOS shugoki is exactly as fast as an OOS orochi ROFL

Spacing is an aspect of this game you need to be aware of. Also just because someone is out of stamina doesn't mean they aren't still a threat. And at this point i feel you don't want advice you just want to whine. I'm done here.

CandleInTheDark
08-05-2017, 12:28 PM
Eh I guess that's my answer, done here too.

Arekonator
08-05-2017, 12:29 PM
Spacing is an aspect of this game you need to be aware of. Also just because someone is out of stamina doesn't mean they aren't still a threat. And at this point i feel you don't want advice you just want to whine. I'm done here.

Completely missing the point man.
Changes to defensive meta were aimed, among others on OOS being more dangerous for the exhausted player. But assassins can still simply keep dodging backwards and be completely safe from any punishment, making the OOS state meaningless. This being more prominent in certain matchups, where slow classes are involved.

Error is not whining or asking for advice. He is stating the fact, that the changes failed to achieve the intended goal in cerain cases.

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 12:49 PM
Completely missing the point man.
Changes to defensive meta were aimed, among others on OOS being more dangerous for the exhausted player. But assassins can still simply keep dodging backwards and be completely safe from any punishment, making the OOS state meaningless. This being more prominent in certain matchups, where slow classes are involved.

Error is not whining or asking for advice. He is stating the fact, that the changes failed to achieve the intended goal in cerain cases.

Dodging will halt stamina regeneration, so someone OoS who is dodge spamming will not recover until they stop. As I said, spacing is an aspect you need to be aware of, chances are (and I should know, seeing as how that's what I do) an assassin class doesn't go out of stamina when they are out of reach of any gap closers at the very least, which most every class in this game has access to some form of.

But ultimately at the end of the day people need to realize that the assassins really only have one thing really going for them. Their mobility. As assassins we have a reactive (not static) guard, so while every other class has one flank protected we don't. In addition we don't have access to any at will unblockable attacks or CC, which while the Shinobi has his kick and range he also has the lowest health pool out of the entire roster.

Lastly he's not stating a fact. He's using his own personal experience and lack of ability as fact across the board. No one here aside from Error knows what mistakes where made on either side of his encounters. All we have is his bias statements and hypothetical situations. So forgive for not just blindly following suit in coddling him by not first offering a means of fixing what is clearly a Lrn2play issue. It's never a wise idea to just blindly call for nerfs just because you got mad.

Arekonator
08-05-2017, 01:11 PM
So, first you admit thats indeed how it works, then in next paragraph you turn around and dismiss it as l2p issue. Basically saying, "Only he knows exactly what happened, no one else saw it, so lets not draw any conclusion. At the same time, its 100% caused just by him being bad" Make up your mind? Or at least be consistent?
If you think its purely hypotetical made up situation, i suggest to go and play on the PTR yourself. Problem is, even in OOS state, assassins still cover more ground faster than most of the other characters normally and as such OOS state have hardly any impact. I dont think asking for their OOS punish risk being brought in line with other characters is unreasonable.

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 01:41 PM
So, first you admit thats indeed how it works, then in next paragraph you turn around and dismiss it as l2p issue. Basically saying, "Only he knows exactly what happened, no one else saw it, so lets not draw any conclusion. At the same time, its 100% caused just by him being bad" Make up your mind? Or at least be consistent?
If you think its purely hypotetical made up situation, i suggest to go and play on the PTR yourself. Problem is, even in OOS state, assassins still cover more ground faster than most of the other characters normally and as such OOS state have hardly any impact. I dont think asking for their OOS punish risk being brought in line with other characters is unreasonable.

He is on console, he doesn't know what he is talking about, but he talks about it.

S0Mi_xD
08-05-2017, 02:05 PM
LoL, this "conversation" about punishing some Hero in OOS ....

Let's see ... i am a console player, so i only can judge the PTR from what ppl share who played it.
PPL here in this thread say "it is still the same" .... well currently I am an Berserker Main and a Conqueror in the second place.

Current game situation when my enemy is OOS (doesn't play a roll which Hero, if it is a Shugoki, LB, Shinobi, PK etc.)
As a Berserker:
I have damn high potential to punish OOS (96 dmg), but only if
- i parry an attack WHILE the enemy is OOS (chance this will happen 0,00001%)
- i GB him while OOS (chance here, not as tiny as the parry - but works only against noobs, or if the enemy is really unaware. around 1% chance)

And the actual punish against OOS is ... maybe abit chip dmg.

BUT what i do, when someone is dodging around in OOS, i simply ....
STEP 1: Release the targeting
STEP 2: RUN to catch the enemy with attacks or a GB

and you know what? this works against all Heros with every hero -.-

As a Conqueror:
Yeah, i turn your OOS into hell, because as a Conqu i have the tools to pressure you and keep you OOS >:D

kweassa1
08-05-2017, 02:31 PM
...actually, all you need to do in the new meta-fix to catch upto assassins as they keep try to dodge away is simply...

- unlock
- sprint
- sprint-attack

It's OOS. They can't roll. They can't parry. Their attacks are slowed down so they can't cut your sprint attack before it comes out.

Sure, they can dodge and evade the sprint attack, but their stam regen is halted for the moment, and right after you swing the distance is closed and they are in attack range. Or even better -- sprint up to them and GB. In OOS the vulnerability timing of dodges are increased by 200ms or something.

I'm not even sure if you guys complaining, "assassins don't feel the effects of OOS" have even tried PTS2 out, because they certainly do. It's nothing like LIVE where in OOS you keep on mashing backstep(rearward dodge), and then simply parry an attempted sprint attack, use that moment to back away further.

Maybe you guys haven't thought of new options, because you were still playing by the current LIVE styles of combat... I dunno, but in my experience, nobody "escapes" away when they are "OOS". If you have charging/rushing/lunging skills like the Orochi, Raider, Warlord, Shugoki and Peacekeeper... you can simply barge in with those skills. I've had great fun with Orochi Storm Rush -- they can't be parried while opponent is OOS.... Barge in with that skill --> Storm Rush is blocked? GOOD!! -- they are smack in front of you, swing away the lights. They try to wiggle out of that? Storm Rush again.


So I'm not sure how much you guys have tested this out in PTS2. But things are clearly not as you think they are. When OOS comes, it's very difficult to put any distance between you and your attacker, certainly more if you are spamming dodges.


(ps) woops, S0MI above gave the EXACT advice I've written down here, great big kudos and that's EXACTLY how it works in PTS2. Unlock, sprint, swing away. It's even better in PTS2 because like mentioned above, your sprinting attack cannot be parried.

CandleInTheDark
08-05-2017, 02:34 PM
...actually, all you need to do in the new meta-fix to catch upto assassins as they keep try to dodge away is simply...

- unlock
- sprint
- sprint-attack

It's OOS. They can't roll. They can't parry. Their attacks are slowed down so they can't cut your sprint attack before it comes out.

Sure, they can dodge and evade the sprint attack, but their stam regen is halted for the moment, and right after you swing the distance is closed and they are in attack range. Or even better -- sprint up to them and GB. In OOS the vulnerability timing of dodges are increased by 200ms or something.

I'm not even sure if you guys complaining, "assassins don't feel the effects of OOS" have even tried PTS2 out, because they certainly do. It's nothing like LIVE where in OOS you keep on mashing backstep(rearward dodge), and then simply parry an attempted sprint attack, use that moment to back away further.

Maybe you guys haven't thought of new options, because you were still playing by the current LIVE styles of combat... I dunno, but in my experience, nobody "escapes" away when they are "OOS". If you have charging/rushing/lunging skills like the Orochi, Raider, Warlord, Shugoki and Peacekeeper... you can simply barge in with those skills. I've had great fun with Orochi Storm Rush -- they can't be parried while opponent is OOS.... Barge in with that skill --> Storm Rush is blocked? GOOD!! -- they are smack in front of you, swing away the lights. They try to wiggle out of that? Storm Rush again.


So I'm not sure how much you guys have tested this out in PTS2. But things are clearly not as you think they are. When OOS comes, it's very difficult to put any distance between you and your attacker, certainly more if you are spamming dodges.


(ps) woops, S0MI above gave the EXACT advice I've written down here, great big kudos and that's EXACTLY how it works in PTS2. Unlock, sprint, swing away. It's even better in PTS2 because like mentioned above, your sprinting attack cannot be parried.

Sad thing is as much sense as this and SoMI's post above make, certain people will ignore them because it doesn't fit their narrative or their need to complain. I've legit given up feeling like I am banging my head against a wall and just used the ignore feature. Never thought I would do that, I don't mind that there are people who disagree with me, but most people I disagree with it still doesn't feel like a waste of my time debating with them.

kweassa1
08-05-2017, 02:43 PM
Sad thing is as much sense as this and SoMI's post above makes, certain people will ignore you because it doesn't fit their narrative or their need to complain.

So what's new? LOL

People still have the misconceptions about PKs and assassins in general that were born around 5 months ago.... and for me, the worst part of this sort of cognitive failure is with centurions.

Whenever I try to tell them how to beat a cent I get the same reactions. No. It's never their fault. Things are totally "fixed solid" -- they can NEVER beat the centurion because the cent is SUPPOSED to be OP.

I keep telling them that to beat a cent, you gotta know the cent -- it's not out of some love for the cent. I actually really hate cents. Never used them even once in multiplayer PvP. I keep telling people to wake up, because I don't want to see newbies keep falling victim of sucky cent scrubs and giving them the pleasure of easy kills. I want to see more people beat down centurions with some of the most basic counter moves and defense -- which is entirely possible since a sucky, old player like me with zonked reflexes and bad eyesight can do it.

I DEARLY wish they'd actually LISTEN, and then just SHUT THE F**K UP, and then GO TRY IT. What's there to lose? But no. They never listen.

To them, the cent is just OP. They didn't invest even 10 minutes in trying to learn the basic cent mechanics, and all they know is only partial and incomplete picture of the cent they've seen just moments before they were squashed like bugs from the lowest, most beginner level cent combos/tactics... and they expect to be able to defeat their sworn enemies with that kind of laziness.

:rolleyes:

CandleInTheDark
08-05-2017, 02:57 PM
So what's new? LOL

People still have the misconceptions about PKs and assassins in general that were born around 5 months ago.... and for me, the worst part of this sort of cognitive failure is with centurions.

Whenever I try to tell them how to beat a cent I get the same reactions. No. It's never their fault. Things are totally "fixed solid" -- they can NEVER beat the centurion because the cent is SUPPOSED to be OP.

I keep telling them that to beat a cent, you gotta know the cent -- it's not out of some love for the cent. I actually really hate cents. Never used them even once in multiplayer PvP. I keep telling people to wake up, because I don't want to see newbies keep falling victim of sucky cent scrubs and giving them the pleasure of easy kills. I want to see more people beat down centurions with some of the most basic counter moves and defense -- which is entirely possible since a sucky, old player like me with zonked reflexes and bad eyesight can do it.

I DEARLY wish they'd actually LISTEN, and then just SHUT THE F**K UP, and then GO TRY IT. What's there to lose? But no. They never listen.

To them, the cent is just OP. They didn't invest even 10 minutes in trying to learn the basic cent mechanics, and all they know is only partial and incomplete picture of the cent they've seen just moments before they were squashed like bugs from the lowest, most beginner level cent combos/tactics... and they expect to be able to defeat their sworn enemies with that kind of laziness.

:rolleyes:

I mostly play assassins and the warden who isn't exactly slow either but yeah 1v1 I can deal with a cent fairly well because I used him against the crash test dummy level 0 peacekeeper to learn his moves, dodge the punch, dodge the kick, punish, same way I deal with warlords, conqs, wardens, lawbringers, anything that tries to charge at me. Crowd control, that sucks, I have dodged a cent, been tripped by a valk then had the original cent and another floor pin me one after the other and would probably have taken a valk heavy had those not killed me, but I understand the devs need to fix that in 4v4 without breaking characters 1v1.

S0Mi_xD
08-05-2017, 03:02 PM
...actually, all you need to do in the new meta-fix to catch upto assassins as they keep try to dodge away is simply...

- unlock
- sprint
- sprint-attack

(ps) woops, S0MI above gave the EXACT advice I've written down here, great big kudos and that's EXACTLY how it works in PTS2. Unlock, sprint, swing away. It's even better in PTS2 because like mentioned above, your sprinting attack cannot be parried.

LOOOOL :D

For real, its the same advice xD

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 06:24 PM
I'd love to see a response to these. ^^

CandleInTheDark
08-05-2017, 06:26 PM
I'd love to see a response to these. ^^

You'll be lucky, I didn't get a response to something that wasn't directly arguing with him. A post that does from someone on PC who has seen the PTS stuff...

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 06:29 PM
You'll be lucky, I didn't get a response to something that wasn't directly arguing with him. A post that does from someone on PC who has seen the PTS stuff...

That's the funny thing i haven't played on the pts but I had at least thought about unlocking and chasing after them. It's good to see that it actually works like that too apparently.

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 07:41 PM
That's the funny thing i haven't played on the pts but I had at least thought about unlocking and chasing after them. It's good to see that it actually works like that too apparently.

Running attacks ? LOL


Only 2 classes have an unblockable run attack, and thats all.


Its a serious problem. They want to make OOs a real punishment, but actually ( on ptr) its not.

Alustar.
08-05-2017, 08:00 PM
Running attacks ? LOL


Only 2 classes have an unblockable run attack, and thats all.


Its a serious problem. They want to make OOs a real punishment, but actually ( on ptr) its not.

See perfect example, he's already done it all/knows it all. He's not even going to address the actual people who suggested this either, who happened to have actual experience in the matter, but the simple fact that I support it is enough I guess? I don't know.
I guess at this point there's now chance of actually helping. He just wants things that he doesn't like nerfed.

S0Mi_xD
08-05-2017, 09:41 PM
alustar24, don't pay attention to him - he is a troll, since i joined this forum, i see him spreading this kind of comments in here ....

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 10:10 PM
See perfect example, he's already done it all/knows it all. He's not even going to address the actual people who suggested this either, who happened to have actual experience in the matter, but the simple fact that I support it is enough I guess? I don't know.
I guess at this point there's now chance of actually helping. He just wants things that he doesn't like nerfed.

Says the console player who never tried PTR.

What kind of punishment is performing a running attck that CAN be blocked ?


I will take LB for example, do you know what heppens when you perform a running ttack but you get blocked ?

90+% of the stamina is gone.


Is like saying that the orochi in ptr is fine, when he is the only class that have a double top light that deals 30+ damage when almost ALL others classes can only have a 15/20 light.


Why you speak about something that you never tried because you play on console ? Who gives you the authority to actually judge someone without having tried a single new feature of the game ?


You have 0 rights to speak in this forum about ptr changes. Because you don't know what you are talking about. And thats includes every console player. Don't post feedback based onfeelings and fantasies.


Since when a running blockable attack is considered an OOS punish ? Are you even pllaying this game or what ?

Really mate, learn to actually read, because you seems a little bit ******ed at this point.



You and the other dude defending centurion parry punish.



The only real viable unlock charge are the ones that create a situationof 50/50 take the charge or take a GB, if the hit can be blocked, iswitch the guard on the right side and be prepared to press B. GG

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 10:15 PM
alustar24, don't pay attention to him - he is a troll, since i joined this forum, i see him spreading this kind of comments in here ....

Unlike you I played 2 days on PTR.

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 10:35 PM
LoL, this "conversation" about punishing some Hero in OOS ....

Let's see ... i am a console player, so i only can judge the PTR from what ppl share who played it.
PPL here in this thread say "it is still the same" .... well currently I am an Berserker Main and a Conqueror in the second place.

Current game situation when my enemy is OOS (doesn't play a roll which Hero, if it is a Shugoki, LB, Shinobi, PK etc.)
As a Berserker:
I have damn high potential to punish OOS (96 dmg), but only if
- i parry an attack WHILE the enemy is OOS (chance this will happen 0,00001%)
- i GB him while OOS (chance here, not as tiny as the parry - but works only against noobs, or if the enemy is really unaware. around 1% chance)

And the actual punish against OOS is ... maybe abit chip dmg.

BUT what i do, when someone is dodging around in OOS, i simply ....
STEP 1: Release the targeting
STEP 2: RUN to catch the enemy with attacks or a GB

and you know what? this works against all Heros with every hero -.-

As a Conqueror:
Yeah, i turn your OOS into hell, because as a Conqu i have the tools to pressure you and keep you OOS >:D

TEll me that you are not serious.

Who kind of idiot would just keep to back dodge without watching his actual opponent ?


You misunderstand the whole point my friend.


A good punish with the shugoki vs OOS guys is full heavy charge > feint into GB.


Fun fact, it doesn't work if you back dodge with an assassin. But it works vs other shugokis or LB. Because their dodge is way slower.

On ptr chip damage is noticeble, but still LOW without gear so, that "strategy" to just spam running attack MAY work vs opoonents with less than a bar of HP. And someone with less than a bar of HP doesn't really needs an OOS punishment to die.

Most classes have an unblockable to force the dodge, but most of them are slow, and a back dodge will save you ALMOST every time unless you are stucked in some corner.


The only one who has an istant UB attack is the raider, Cent, Warlord.


Infact they can punish you very well in ptr.

Stamepede spam, warlord running charge spam, and kick spam.

EDIT: forgot conqueror, but he is gonne be reworked, btw FYI in ptr he is god mode, cannot be puished with parries in any way.

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 11:22 PM
...Speaking a bit further on this I can potentially see assassins even in OOS still being a bit annoying.
They'ed have to dodge a lot more accurately.
But the distance they cover would mean if timed right you wouldn't need to dodge as often.

However. I believe that you can properly pressure an assassin on PTR during OOS with running attacks.
Especially if you mix up those with the occasional GB instead.

So. While I can see the potential complaints I also can see how the changes will make people who are dodge happy be screwed.

Like...lets say i'm a rochi. and i'm trying to punish a back dashing PK who's OOS. I can run up stop light light. Run up. stop. zone. Run up. storm rush. or run up and GB.

The pk could continue to try and back dash to respond to all of those. and if timed properly pk could avoid all of that with back dashing sans storm rush and GB.

Since the PK can't parry me. they're forced to read what i'm going to do. and either try and block it or back dash. If they crutch on back dash anyone can just GB them. and mean while every successful dodge will pause their stamina. which means they have to stay OOS longer.

If they are smart and try to block more than dodge I can fake them out with whatever mix ups I have on my character.

So...We will see. If assassins are still too difficult during OOS to punish i'd probably suggest just shortening their dodge distance while OOS. since they're already slower now and pause stam regen. inb4 "console player doesn't know what he's talking about."

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 11:39 PM
...Speaking a bit further on this I can potentially see assassins even in OOS still being a bit annoying.
They'ed have to dodge a lot more accurately.
But the distance they cover would mean if timed right you wouldn't need to dodge as often.

However. I believe that you can properly pressure an assassin on PTR during OOS with running attacks.
Especially if you mix up those with the occasional GB instead.

So. While I can see the potential complaints I also can see how the changes will make people who are dodge happy be screwed.

Like...lets say i'm a rochi. and i'm trying to punish a back dashing PK who's OOS. I can run up stop light light. Run up. stop. zone. Run up. storm rush. or run up and GB.

The pk could continue to try and back dash to respond to all of those. and if timed properly pk could avoid all of that with back dashing sans storm rush and GB.

Since the PK can't parry me. they're forced to read what i'm going to do. and either try and block it or back dash. If they crutch on back dash anyone can just GB them. and mean while every successful dodge will pause their stamina. which means they have to stay OOS longer.

If they are smart and try to block more than dodge I can fake them out with whatever mix ups I have on my character.

So...We will see. If assassins are still too difficult during OOS to punish i'd probably suggest just shortening their dodge distance while OOS. since they're already slower now and pause stam regen. inb4 "console player doesn't know what he's talking about."


In bf4 we explained to you guys multiple times the problem, and you finally realized the fix. GG.


Even if you manage to keep someone in a a STATE of OOS, without unblockables, that are the only type of attacks THAT force a reaction because is either eat the attack or eat a GB if feinted you cannot truly punish someone.


Dodging oos should be the same MS to all.

OFC classes that can drain all your stam pool in one parry need a massive nerf.

Knight_Raime
08-05-2017, 11:50 PM
In bf4 we explained to you guys multiple times the problem, and you finally realized the fix. GG.


Even if you manage to keep someone in a a STATE of OOS, without unblockables, that are the only type of attacks THAT force a reaction because is either eat the attack or eat a GB if feinted you cannot truly punish someone.


Dodging oos should be the same MS to all.

OFC classes that can drain all your stam pool in one parry need a massive nerf.

"we?" no. Really just you. and you didn't explain anything. You just circle jerked "you can't punish pk because assassins dodge is still too fast."
Which isn't the problem because they slowed it down. it's the distance. which far as I read was never mentioned in this thread.

I wouldn't be keeping them there. they would do that to themselves if all they did was auto pilot on dodges without actually trying to read what i'm attempting to do.
and at that point you wouldn't even need to attack. just GB them.

You also basically dismissed any constructive posts because "oh look console player opinion invalid." yet because i'm a console player that "might" agree with the suggested problem you don't bother to call me on my platform. But you do end up still being smug about stuff like you always do.

You didn't do anything.

Netcode_err_404
08-05-2017, 11:58 PM
"we?" no. Really just you. and you didn't explain anything. You just circle jerked "you can't punish pk because assassins dodge is still too fast."
Which isn't the problem because they slowed it down. it's the distance. which far as I read was never mentioned in this thread.

I wouldn't be keeping them there. they would do that to themselves if all they did was auto pilot on dodges without actually trying to read what i'm attempting to do.
and at that point you wouldn't even need to attack. just GB them.

You also basically dismissed any constructive posts because "oh look console player opinion invalid." yet because i'm a console player that "might" agree with the suggested problem you don't bother to call me on my platform. But you do end up still being smug about stuff like you always do.

You didn't do anything.



1) Buy a pc

2) play PTR

3) Come here and make a thread with your impressions.




You didn't do neither of the 3. So how can I discuss with someone who doesn't know the argument ?


Is like speaking about the problems of the console version of this game, i don't care about console, don't know anything about consoles, AND I DO NOT ENTER CONSOLE THREADS GIVING MY USELESS IMPRESSIONS:



Very simple.

I see another guy who clearly has tested ptr explained better why I am right on this matter. Listen to him, if you are too cool to actually listen to me.

Knight_Raime
08-06-2017, 12:02 AM
1) Buy a pc

2) play PTR

3) Come here and make a thread with your impressions.




You didn't do neither of the 3. So how can I discuss with someone who doesn't know the argument ?


Is like speaking about the problems of the console version of this game, i don't care about console, don't know anything about consoles, AND I DO NOT ENTER CONSOLE THREADS GIVING MY USELESS IMPRESSIONS:



Very simple.

I see another guy who clearly has tested ptr explained better why I am right on this matter. Listen to him, if you are too cool to actually listen to me.

So suddenly my realization is not valid because I brought up that I was on console. Hilarious.

I'm not going to get into a debate with you. I humored you with a reply since you direct quoted me. But it's a bit saddening you're just as obnoxious now as you were back when I first joined the forums.

i'm out.

Netcode_err_404
08-06-2017, 12:06 AM
So suddenly my realization is not valid because I brought up that I was on console. Hilarious.

I'm not going to get into a debate with you. I humored you with a reply since you direct quoted me. But it's a bit saddening you're just as obnoxious now as you were back when I first joined the forums.

i'm out.

You are too stupid even for this forum.

Its ****ing obvious that your opinion here doesn't matter not because you are on console, but because YOU NEVER PLAYED THE NEW CHANGES.



You may agree or disagree with some others posts, but do not come here and tell me that all you need to do is a running attack to punish someone

I hope they will find a way to put test servers on console, because AT LEAST more players will try out and hopefully tell themwhat to change and what to keep.




.

CheekyKemosabe
08-06-2017, 12:07 AM
Personally, as an assassin main: If you think an out of stamina assassin can't be killed because they dodge too much, you clearly haven't fought enough of them. And with the new patch coming out that pauses stamina regen when you dodge, that should make it even easier for someone fighting an assassin to kill them. Too fast? not an excuse, if you're In close quarters and they try to dodge anywhere you're able to guard break them and they can't do **** about it. Too much distance? as before mentioned, unlock and chase that ****er down, they can't go very far and you can at least close the distance. People *****ing about how they can't kill assassins must be some ****ty players because this is **** you should have figured out by now. I feel no sympathy. GG

Netcode_err_404
08-06-2017, 12:11 AM
Personally, as an assassin main: If you think an out of stamina assassin can't be killed because they dodge too much, you clearly haven't fought enough of them. And with the new patch coming out that pauses stamina regen when you dodge, that should make it even easier for someone fighting an assassin to kill them. Too fast? not an excuse, if you're In close quarters and they try to dodge anywhere you're able to guard break them and they can't do **** about it. Too much distance? as before mentioned, unlock and chase that ****er down, they can't go very far and you can at least close the distance. People *****ing about how they can't kill assassins must be some ****ty players because this is **** you should have figured out by now. I feel no sympathy. GG

We clearly are speaking about bads who just spamdodge without actually taking care of what their opponent is doing

The ****ing main point seems clear


1) They are making OOS a dangerous state

2) assassins can bypass this state easily.

3) Slow classes will be mobile target to cc/UB spam.



Understand now ?

CheekyKemosabe
08-06-2017, 12:19 AM
We clearly are speaking about bads who just spamdodge without actually taking care of what their opponent is doing

The ****ing main point seems clear


1) They are making OOS a dangerous state

2) assassins can bypass this state easily.

3) Slow classes will be mobile target to cc/UB spam.



Understand now ?

1) watch your stamina, and it isn't a problem.

2) only if they're better than you. See an assassin spamming the dodge? wait for them to dodge and guard break. They can't do anything about it then and you get a free heavy.

3) See step 1. If you know CC/UB of your opponent, you shouldn't be worried about this either, unless it's a cent, who we all know has the most cancerous cc of them all.

Netcode_err_404
08-06-2017, 12:31 AM
1) watch your stamina, and it isn't a problem.

2) only if they're better than you. See an assassin spamming the dodge? wait for them to dodge and guard break. They can't do anything about it then and you get a free heavy.

3) See step 1. If you know CC/UB of your opponent, you shouldn't be worried about this either, unless it's a cent, who we all know has the most cancerous cc of them all.



1) If its not a problem OOs focus is useless from the devs, am I right ?


2) Oh god, not again.

3) When you are out of stamina YOU SHOULD BE worried because dodge or eat the damage. So 50/50.

Knight_Raime
08-06-2017, 12:43 AM
You are too stupid even for this forum.

Its ****ing obvious that your opinion here doesn't matter not because you are on console, but because YOU NEVER PLAYED THE NEW CHANGES.



You may agree or disagree with some others posts, but do not come here and tell me that all you need to do is a running attack to punish someone

I hope they will find a way to put test servers on console, because AT LEAST more players will try out and hopefully tell themwhat to change and what to keep.




.


So first. bringing up someone being on console meant that their opinion was invalid. Then I some what see the side you're coming from. And you don't care on my platform.
I call you out on that. and you switch back to "you're on console you don't know anything." and now you're saying it's not because i'm console. it's because I haven't played the changes.
How do you know I haven't? I could have played on a friends PC account. All you're doing is exactly what I said you're doing. slamming anyone who doesn't agree. and trying to validate your poor debating with flimsy excuses.

Since you admitted to playing on PTR how about you show us footage that proves your point about not being able to punish an assassin OOS?

Also. I didn't say "only running attack" I mentioned GB. and specifically with rochi other attacks. But it's not exactly new of you to pigeon hole statements to make you seem superior.

Want to know something cool? The mods are giving all feedback to the devs regarding the PTR. both pc players and consoles. They've stated as such. so like it or not my opinion is being heard. and like it or not I don't need to play pc in order to grasp what the changes do. I've been playing for honor long enough to understand. pc isn't even very different from console. Anything that's reactable on pc can be reacted to on console. (I personally experienced this when I switched from my tv to a fast response rate monitor for a few hours) Majority of pc players use a controller as well. so. The only major difference is frame rate. Which while it makes a difference on average to sub par players it makes very little difference if you're a skilled player whos using a monitor.

All it is is just more BS you're throwing up at me to try and devalue my feedback. But that's alright. That's why I muted you forever ago. You don't debate. you just flame. attack. and demean people. Now that i've said my peace i'm not looking at your responses anymore. Frankly I shouldn't have to even begin with.

CheekyKemosabe
08-06-2017, 12:56 AM
1) If its not a problem OOs focus is useless from the devs, am I right ?


2) Oh god, not again.

3) When you are out of stamina YOU SHOULD BE worried because dodge or eat the damage. So 50/50.

If you're paying attention to how much stamina is being drained with every move you make then you wouldn't be out of stamina to begin with. And if you're not out of stamina, you don't need to worry about it because you can still parry it. "Oh but parry is going to be impossible!" No, it ****ing isn't. window of opportunity may be closed just a bit, but that won't make it impossible, it takes practice. How much practice depends on you. The people on this forum are giving you valid points on your invalid argument because what you're basically saying is that you can't fight against an assassin class character because they dodge too much, which is pathetic, its an easy thing to counter. You've been given the advice to help you on this matter, and you refuse to see reason. So have fun getting your *** handed to you by every assassin you ever face because you didn't listen.

Alustar.
08-06-2017, 01:00 AM
If you're paying attention to how much stamina is being drained with every move you make then you wouldn't be out of stamina to begin with. And if you're not out of stamina, you don't need to worry about it because you can still parry it. "Oh but parry is going to be impossible!" No, it ****ing isn't. window of opportunity may be closed just a bit, but that won't make it impossible, it takes practice. How much practice depends on you. The people on this forum are giving you valid points on your invalid argument because what you're basically saying is that you can't fight against an assassin class character because they dodge too much, which is pathetic, its an easy thing to counter. You've been given the advice to help you on this matter, and you refuse to see reason. So have fun getting your *** handed to you by every assassin you ever face because you didn't listen.

Thank you, as an assassin this made me laugh and cry. Thank you.

Netcode_err_404
08-06-2017, 01:03 AM
So first. bringing up someone being on console meant that their opinion was invalid. Then I some what see the side you're coming from. And you don't care on my platform.
I call you out on that. and you switch back to "you're on console you don't know anything." and now you're saying it's not because i'm console. it's because I haven't played the changes.
How do you know I haven't? I could have played on a friends PC account. All you're doing is exactly what I said you're doing. slamming anyone who doesn't agree. and trying to validate your poor debating with flimsy excuses.

Since you admitted to playing on PTR how about you show us footage that proves your point about not being able to punish an assassin OOS?

Also. I didn't say "only running attack" I mentioned GB. and specifically with rochi other attacks. But it's not exactly new of you to pigeon hole statements to make you seem superior.

Want to know something cool? The mods are giving all feedback to the devs regarding the PTR. both pc players and consoles. They've stated as such. so like it or not my opinion is being heard. and like it or not I don't need to play pc in order to grasp what the changes do. I've been playing for honor long enough to understand. pc isn't even very different from console. Anything that's reactable on pc can be reacted to on console. (I personally experienced this when I switched from my tv to a fast response rate monitor for a few hours) Majority of pc players use a controller as well. so. The only major difference is frame rate. Which while it makes a difference on average to sub par players it makes very little difference if you're a skilled player whos using a monitor.

All it is is just more BS you're throwing up at me to try and devalue my feedback. But that's alright. That's why I muted you forever ago. You don't debate. you just flame. attack. and demean people. Now that i've said my peace i'm not looking at your responses anymore. Frankly I shouldn't have to even begin with.


Flash news, IS THE SAME BLODDY THING, you admitted you never played it BECAUSE YOU PLAY ON CONSOLE lol


PTR is close now. And even if it was open i should have an assassin an a OOS situation, with one of the classes that can't do ****. Too much work to just proove something you could experience by playing the ptr for 20 minutes. MAybe in private.


You can give all the feedback you want, if you have tried it. But thats not the case


The differences are few ? LOL


According to ppl like candle they are exactly 2 different games.


I see you console guys have all ideas very very clear XD

Netcode_err_404
08-06-2017, 01:06 AM
If you're paying attention to how much stamina is being drained with every move you make then you wouldn't be out of stamina to begin with. And if you're not out of stamina, you don't need to worry about it because you can still parry it. "Oh but parry is going to be impossible!" No, it ****ing isn't. window of opportunity may be closed just a bit, but that won't make it impossible, it takes practice. How much practice depends on you. The people on this forum are giving you valid points on your invalid argument because what you're basically saying is that you can't fight against an assassin class character because they dodge too much, which is pathetic, its an easy thing to counter. You've been given the advice to help you on this matter, and you refuse to see reason. So have fun getting your *** handed to you by every assassin you ever face because you didn't listen.



LOL.

But ok. You can't read, not your fault,

S0Mi_xD
08-07-2017, 03:57 PM
We clearly are speaking about bads who just spamdodge without actually taking care of what their opponent is doing

The ****ing main point seems clear


1) They are making OOS a dangerous state

2) assassins can bypass this state easily.

3) Slow classes will be mobile target to cc/UB spam.



Understand now ?


TEll me that you are not serious.

Who kind of idiot would just keep to back dodge without watching his actual opponent ?


You misunderstand the whole point my friend.


A good punish with the shugoki vs OOS guys is full heavy charge > feint into GB.


Fun fact, it doesn't work if you back dodge with an assassin. But it works vs other shugokis or LB. Because their dodge is way slower.

On ptr chip damage is noticeble, but still LOW without gear so, that "strategy" to just spam running attack MAY work vs opoonents with less than a bar of HP. And someone with less than a bar of HP doesn't really needs an OOS punishment to die.

Most classes have an unblockable to force the dodge, but most of them are slow, and a back dodge will save you ALMOST every time unless you are stucked in some corner.


The only one who has an istant UB attack is the raider, Cent, Warlord.


Infact they can punish you very well in ptr.

Stamepede spam, warlord running charge spam, and kick spam.

EDIT: forgot conqueror, but he is gonne be reworked, btw FYI in ptr he is god mode, cannot be puished with parries in any way.

So at first you contradict with your own answers.

And the second thing is, there is nothing more to say ... go live in your little world where assassins are the masters of dodges and it is impossible to punish them.
In your world, you are the one who is right.... but please stay in your world and don't bother other people here.... because of people like you, others can get a wrong image from the game and events like the PTR/PTS....

I can punish and/or pressure those ppl who are dodging back in OOS, even with my Berserker. How it works? I already told you....
And PTR/PTS, there was a stamina change to dodges ... sooo i think it would be even easier /more effective then in the current state ....

Just because i didn't tast the Apple Pie with cinnamon, doesn't mean that i don't know how the Apple Pie it self does taste....

Netcode_err_404
08-07-2017, 04:00 PM
So at first you contradict with your own answers.

And the second thing is, there is nothing more to say ... go live in your little world where assassins are the masters of dodges and it is impossible to punish them.
In your world, you are the one who is right.... but please stay in your world and don't bother other people here.... because of people like you, others can get a wrong image from the game and events like the PTR/PTS....

I can punish and/or pressure those ppl who are dodging back in OOS, even with my Berserker. How it works? I already told you....
And PTR/PTS, there was a stamina change to dodges ... sooo i think it would be even easier /more effective then in the current state ....

Just because i didn't tast the Apple Pie with cinnamon, doesn't mean that i don't know how the Apple Pie it self does taste....

In my world, ppl can read, and have a good text comprehend.

Which clearly you lack badly.


I said IN PTR assassins are still too fast with dodges and characters that requires a full combo to trigger an UB attack, CANNOT punish them.

Then I say WHY raiders in PTR are extremely good in punishing OOS.


But you and the other dude are clearly too stupid to read.

S0Mi_xD
08-07-2017, 04:12 PM
In my world, ppl can read, and have a good text comprehend.

Which clearly you lack badly.


I said IN PTR assassins are still too fast with dodges and characters that requires a full combo to trigger an UB attack, CANNOT punish them.

Then I say WHY raiders in PTR are extremely good in punishing OOS.


But you and the other dude are clearly too stupid to read.

Lol :D who is too stupid to read ?

YOURSELF saying - it is no difference to the normal state ....
I SAY even in normal state it isn't hard to pressure or punish this behavior XD

Gosh, i am a Berserker, i DON'T have ANY unblockables to "trigger a punish" uuuuhh UUUUHH .... NOO Assassain has one, but therefor they have other traits, like good dodges .... bla bla ...

Like i said... go back into your little world... and befor you try to insult me - - - use your brain, as long it isn't a Dodging assassin i think you should be able do so :D

Netcode_err_404
08-07-2017, 04:21 PM
Lol :D who is too stupid to read ?

YOURSELF saying - it is no difference to the normal state ....
I SAY even in normal state it isn't hard to pressure or punish this behavior XD

Gosh, i am a Berserker, i DON'T have ANY unblockables to "trigger a punish" uuuuhh UUUUHH .... NOO Assassain has one, but therefor they have other traits, like good dodges .... bla bla ...

Like i said... go back into your little world... and befor you try to insult me - - - use your brain, as long it isn't a Dodging assassin i think you should be able do so :D

I will be honst, that terrible grammar prevented me to understand your point. If you have one.


As a matter of fact without UB you cannot punish an OOS player, and thats why top 3 classes have all spammable UB,but its ok.

PS: oh except spamkeeper, but he has light spam

S0Mi_xD
08-07-2017, 04:32 PM
I will be honst, that terrible grammar prevented me to understand your point. If you have one.


As a matter of fact without UB you cannot punish an OOS player, and thats why top 3 classes have all spammable UB,but its ok.

Nagging on grammar ... the last hope of a threatened troll :3

You know what - i don't care about your opinion, your comments and so on - but i care about unexperienced, new poeple or gamechanging events - and this is the reason why i still bother myself with you :)

Also, i can, but it is much harder ^^

I'll try to not pay to much attention to you.

Netcode_err_404
08-07-2017, 05:03 PM
Nagging on grammar ... the last hope of a threatened troll :3

You know what - i don't care about your opinion, your comments and so on - but i care about unexperienced, new poeple or gamechanging events - and this is the reason why i still bother myself with you :)

Also, i can, but it is much harder ^^

I'll try to not pay to much attention to you.

I do not focus on grammar, but i really haven't understood a single word.


You didn't try ptr, so shut up and go away, ty.

S0Mi_xD
08-07-2017, 05:35 PM
I do not focus on grammar, but i really haven't understood a single word.


You didn't try ptr, so shut up and go away, ty.

Contradicting yourself ... 2 times in one sentence.
1. You focused on grammer, and used it as an excuse and an way to insult me.
2. so you haven't understood a single word? If this is really the case, you should go do a doctor/psychologist ... it could be a really critical if you do not understand simple words, you used yourself o.O.
Or you understood it very well... because you gave me an answer an it xD
"As a matter of fact without UB you cannot punish an OOS player, and thats why top 3 classes have all spammable UB,but its ok."


You didn't proof to me that you played PTR, so please, follow your own advice :D

Also, i don't need to play PTR to know how to punish or work some pressure while the enemy is OOS - OOS-State is not a new feature, introduced in the PTR ;D

Netcode_err_404
08-07-2017, 07:44 PM
Contradicting yourself ... 2 times in one sentence.
1. You focused on grammer, and used it as an excuse and an way to insult me.
2. so you haven't understood a single word? If this is really the case, you should go do a doctor/psychologist ... it could be a really critical if you do not understand simple words, you used yourself o.O.
Or you understood it very well... because you gave me an answer an it xD
"As a matter of fact without UB you cannot punish an OOS player, and thats why top 3 classes have all spammable UB,but its ok."


You didn't proof to me that you played PTR, so please, follow your own advice :D

Also, i don't need to play PTR to know how to punish or work some pressure while the enemy is OOS - OOS-State is not a new feature, introduced in the PTR ;D

At this point is clear that you are trolling. So excuse me, but im out.

Farewell.

Hormly
08-07-2017, 08:16 PM
If you dodge allot im just going to grab you :P

UbiJurassic
08-08-2017, 02:20 AM
In my world, ppl can read, and have a good text comprehend.

Which clearly you lack badly.


I said IN PTR assassins are still too fast with dodges and characters that requires a full combo to trigger an UB attack, CANNOT punish them.

Then I say WHY raiders in PTR are extremely good in punishing OOS.


But you and the other dude are clearly too stupid to read.


Lol :D who is too stupid to read ?

YOURSELF saying - it is no difference to the normal state ....
I SAY even in normal state it isn't hard to pressure or punish this behavior XD

Gosh, i am a Berserker, i DON'T have ANY unblockables to "trigger a punish" uuuuhh UUUUHH .... NOO Assassain has one, but therefor they have other traits, like good dodges .... bla bla ...

Like i said... go back into your little world... and befor you try to insult me - - - use your brain, as long it isn't a Dodging assassin i think you should be able do so :D

UbiNoty has already kindly asked for discussions to remain civil and constructive. Should you continue to ignore the warning, the thread will be closed and infractions will be dealt.