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Kwiatos
08-25-2004, 01:05 PM
Before PF relase i wonder if is here at least one person who notice that maximum speed A6m2 is too slow in FB/AEP. These plane is for some time in these game but still is too slow. FB -478 km/h at 45000m, RL A6m2 according to different souorces 288 kt/h (532 km/h).
I wonder if these plane will have corect speed in PF?

Kwiatos
08-25-2004, 01:05 PM
Before PF relase i wonder if is here at least one person who notice that maximum speed A6m2 is too slow in FB/AEP. These plane is for some time in these game but still is too slow. FB -478 km/h at 45000m, RL A6m2 according to different souorces 288 kt/h (532 km/h).
I wonder if these plane will have corect speed in PF?

LEXX_Luthor
08-25-2004, 02:19 PM
A6M2 range is like 1200km

Kwiatos
08-25-2004, 02:51 PM
what these have similar with maximum speed?

JG53Frankyboy
08-25-2004, 05:13 PM
well, its realy a "proplem" of olegs sources http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

objectviewer and IL2 compare2.4 are saying 478km/h http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
also thats the speed i can reach in an A6M2.

532KM7H is a liitle bit fast for a Model 21 - i would go more with R.C Mikeshs listet 509km/h

http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/ZeroDaten.jpg

if this will stay, its not looking good for the Ki43-I , because it is always considered as slower than the A6M2 - with the same engine

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Wed August 25 2004 at 04:22 PM.]

Kwiatos
08-26-2004, 01:14 PM
Thx for these document. It says model 21 max speed with low blower 275 kt - 509 km/h. What is blower? Hmm there is no info about high blower for model 21? If even A6m2 model 21 reach only 509 km/h in FB is still too slow - 478km/h!!!

butch2k
08-26-2004, 02:01 PM
Japanese sources : 533km/h
US sources : 524km/h

JG53Frankyboy
08-26-2004, 02:42 PM
blower is the engines supercharger gear.

Sakae12 of A6M2 was sinlge stage, single speed supercharger

Sakae21 of A6M3 and A6M5 was sinlge stage, two speed

Kwiatos
08-27-2004, 04:18 AM
A6M2 will be very important plane in PF much more important than in FB. Its max speed is too low. I would like to know if these plane will be fixed in PF?
Im wonder there is nobody interesting in these?

michapma
08-27-2004, 04:29 AM
You are asking in the wrong forum, unless you simply wish to discuss. If you hope to influence the 1C:Maddox team, then you should exactly document your sources and make a clear case in the Oleg Maddox Ready Room. That forum is intended for direct feedback to the makers of the sim. If you post with well-organized, documented facts you will get a much better response than your approach here, which is essentially, "The real plane performs so and so, is it going to be fixed in PF?" This is not meant as a negative reflection on you, just to inform you that if you hope to influence the game makers you will need more substance. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards

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The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. - Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc

Kwiatos
08-27-2004, 04:55 AM
I know michamapma about raport bug to 1C. I just check if I find that Zake is too slow.
If someone has document and other spources that says about performance of A6m2 expecially maximum speed and climb rate plz put in these topic or contact me (e-mail: kwiatos999@poczta.onet.pl) I could make raport bug to 1C but i need more proof.

michapma
08-27-2004, 05:45 AM
Okay cool. I wonder, is/was there a standard configuration of the aircraft for testing conditions? Obviously altitude makes a difference, but what about factors such as weight? Some aircraft figures are given from testing without armor and/or armament installed, and how much fuel should be in the aircraft?

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_chap.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)

The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/) | Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com/)
But we are all that way: when we know a thing we have only scorn for other people who don't happen to know it. - Mark Twain, Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc

JG53Frankyboy
08-27-2004, 05:55 AM
well ,in the lightest available condition, empty armament and 25%fuel (A6M2 had no armour).

trimmed for level flight (rudder and elevator) , cowling flaps closed , 100% mixture, 100% rpm , 110% throttle.

i reached betwenn 4500m and 5000m MSL as a max 480km/h at the Crimea map (oled said, THAT is the map with the best altitude modell). the speed was reached by horicontal acceleration, not after a dive.

and now here was 509km/h found as the slowest data http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif even Butch has hoigher speeds found http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

btw, also the ingame ObjectViewer AND il2compare2.04 are showing as max ~480km/h at 4500m ! so, its olegs opinion that a Model21 is that slow - will be hard to give Warhawks , Airacobras, Wildcats , Buffalos and Hurricanes a hard time in the first half of 1942 in the game PF !

and can you imagine the Vmax of a Ki43-I than ?
it had actually the same engine as the Zero Model21 , but it is alwasy considerd to be slower than the later http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif we have to go outside and push http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Fri August 27 2004 at 05:09 AM.]

butch2k
08-27-2004, 06:09 AM
Oleg has been given complete performance sheets for all japanese aircraft included in PF.

JG53Frankyboy
08-27-2004, 06:11 AM
so we have to wait how they will perform in PF.
what is logical obviously http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

butch2k
08-27-2004, 06:20 AM
Indeed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kwiatos
08-27-2004, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
so we have to wait how they will perform in PF.
what is logical obviously http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exacly im afraid about these. im afraid....

Kwiatos
08-27-2004, 08:11 AM
I wonder if someone have info about cut engine in A6m2 at negative G

Kwiatos
08-27-2004, 04:51 PM
I see that there is not many people interesting in real performance A62M. So there are only Americans here??

VW-IceFire
08-27-2004, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kwiatos:
I see that there is not many people interesting in real performance A62M. So there are only Americans here??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't generalize.

The Zero needs some work I think but Luthier a while ago said it would be taken care of with issues like top speed, stall speed, and handling being taken care of.

It should be an excellent match during 1942 and 1943 with the USAAF and USN fighters. It should be a deadly turn fighter and a poor boom and zoom aircraft.

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RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

RCJ99
08-27-2004, 08:02 PM
Whats all the complaining about the zeros top speed.

When the zero was at top speed its controls would tighten up decreasing turn rate ect.

The plane handled better at lower speeds and unless you are chasing someone lower speeds are better.

p1ngu666
08-27-2004, 08:08 PM
um u cant go as fast as u should
so u cant run away effectivly, etc etc
butch2k, in ORR could u check out my AEP2 thread please? im sure u have some useful suggestions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif thanks

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&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Kwiatos
08-28-2004, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kwiatos:
I see that there is not many people interesting in real performance A62M. So there are only Americans here??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't generalize.

The Zero needs some work I think but Luthier a while ago said it would be taken care of with issues like top speed, stall speed, and handling being taken care of.

It should be an excellent match during 1942 and 1943 with the USAAF and USN fighters. It should be a deadly turn fighter and a poor boom and zoom aircraft.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope so but either i hope so that Spitfire MK IX will be corected in max speed in 2.04 and nothing was done.

Kwiatos
08-29-2004, 04:29 AM
I read recently book Saburo Sakai "Samurai". Saburo wrote that A6M2 with max power reach 275 kntos (509 km/h) and with BOST (????) reach 300 kntos (555km/h). I though that A6M2 hadn't BOST. Maby Saburo though about late model A6M when wrote with BOST.

[This message was edited by Kwiatos on Sun August 29 2004 at 03:46 AM.]

JG53Frankyboy
08-31-2004, 10:59 AM
as we are seeing here

http://www.france-simulation.com/fichiers/il2/imgpreview/vignettes/a6m21_11.jpg

it looks like that with PF the A6M2 Model21 can be armed with a (propably) 250kg bomb.

i have read that these Zero Jabos , called Bakusen , not came in action before 1944 ! any thoughts ?

Fliger747
08-31-2004, 11:56 AM
The fastest Zero variant was the '52' at 305 kts at 6000 meters alt. That works out to about 351 mph.

If the energy fighters weren't faster, they wouldn't be 'energy fighters'!

Kwiatos
08-31-2004, 01:28 PM
At the beginning of ww2 Zake wasn't so slow comparing it to other fighters. Of course in dive have no chance with USA fighters but in level speed wasn't much worse. As i find different sources say that :
- some suorces say that maxiumum speed for A6M2 was 509 km/h
- the majority of sources claim that A6M2 max speed was 288 knots - 531 km/h.

In FB A6m2 have only 478 km/h. Even A6M1 with weaker engine had beeter max speed.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2004, 02:50 PM
One crucial thing totally missing from the Zero FM (at least, in FB) is the distinct nose up tendency the Zero has when it's at speed.

You need a bunch of down trim, plus constant stick forward just to keep her level...not to mention the same problems when it's time to dive.

You can feel this phenomenon quite readily in Target:Rabaul (http://www.targetware.net) if you care about such things as FM fidelity... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kartveli
08-31-2004, 03:09 PM
With a 5,000ft/min climb and better turning than the zero, who care? I'm gonna be in the Ki43, bud...those two lil peashooters it has? np, when you can surgically take the ears of any fool who df's it

KIMURA
08-31-2004, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RCJ99:
Whats all the complaining about the zeros top speed.
When the zero was at top speed its controls would tighten up decreasing turn rate ect.
The plane handled better at lower speeds and unless you are chasing someone lower speeds are better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the Zero Vmax is too low you've allways run your engine on overboost to reach "acceptable" speeds and climbrate. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BTW is Mikesh's Zero spec the slowest I found,--&gt; NACA, but TAIC shows a different and faster topseed.

Kimura

KIMURA
08-31-2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
as we are seeing here

http://www.france-simulation.com/fichiers/il2/imgpreview/vignettes/a6m21_11.jpg

it looks like that with PF the A6M2 Model21 can be armed with a (propably) 250kg bomb.

i have read that these Zero Jabos , called Bakusen , not came in action before 1944 ! any thoughts ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope for an non accurate skin, that was taken for these shots(I hope so)
, otherwise I fear for accuracy of the sources Oleg is using. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura

Kwiatos
08-31-2004, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kartveli:
With a 5,000ft/min climb and better turning than the zero, who care? I'm gonna be in the Ki43, bud...those two lil peashooters it has? np, when you can surgically take the ears of any fool who df's it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could only smell smoke from good pilots in USA fighters in your Ki 43 if it will be slowier than A6m2 max speed 478. hehe like I in A6m2 in FB/AEP.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2004, 04:19 PM
Take it from me, if your choice is a Zero vs. an Oscar, you'll go Navy almost every time. Only in extreme earlier war will you feel you have anything close to 'competitive' firepower.

The Oscar's "firepower" is so anemic, you MUST get to pointblank range EVERY time. With the Zero, you at least get two nice cannon that can make the first of those shots hurt BAD.

Just yesterday, I was chasing down A-20s in an Oscar, while they gleefully strafed and bombed barges off of some island. It was an exercise in futility most of the time. I got one's engine to smoke, of course running out of "baby snow peas" in the process and having my aileron jammed by the tailgunner. You can't stay behind an A-20 long enough to get to pointblank range, and even if you do have overtake, it's slow at best, offering the tailgunner an excellent shot.

The only other option is to time a perfect high side pass from a 1:00 or 2:00 merge, which is hard to pull off in any circumstances.

sugaki
08-31-2004, 05:10 PM
Probably best not to expect the PF FM to be accurate for the A6M2 or A6M5--there's constraints to the game engine it seems to accurately model the plane--its stability (or lack thereof) as a gunnery platform, its deterioration of maneuverability above 200 kts, and as Stiglr said the nose up tendency at high speeds. Not to mention stall characteristics being generic for every single plane, with just a different critical angle of attack speed threshold.

Either the Zero will be too uber or too weak, as it either will be too sluggish at slow speeds or too maneuverable at high (due to the lack of performance deterioration). Unless of course they overhaul the flight model engine.

Target Rabaul has flaws itself (like Zeroes being a tad too durable), but the actual flying is excellently portrayed. Not for everyone, but worth checking out just for its flight models.

Still, interested to see how the PF Zero turns out. Eagerly awaiting the release.

Fliger747
08-31-2004, 05:51 PM
One hopes that the sim engine and aircraft modeling will be up to par. Microsoft at least had a good basic sim engine in CFS2, and the "1% for the arts" guys did some very convincing aircraft models with that basic model.

It is possible to do accurate simulation. A lot of the satisfaction of our 'what if' scenarios comes from accurate comaparative modeling.

XyZspineZyX
08-31-2004, 09:12 PM
The Targetware Zero isn't any more durable than it should be, sugaki. The problem is that certain things that would contribute to it's frailty (like pilot kills, oxygen bottles that could explode, etc.) are not fully modeled in yet, so it only *seems* that way to the "spray and pray" crowd. Once those are in place, you'll see that it's pretty spot on.

When that plane gets hit, it usually hurts, even if it's not outwardly obvious. You lose a lot of ailerons and control surface authority from short .50 bursts, which dampens maneuverability a LOT. Then, you are truly meat.

I find when I take a hit in a Zero, it's time to start planning a quick exit strategy.

Kwiatos
09-01-2004, 08:36 AM
I wonder if in PF there will be any changes in A6M FM moddelling or we just will have the same A6M like in FB/AP? I dont see any info about it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2004, 09:31 AM
Exactly. All eye candy, no substance. Even after we ask for it.

Seems to bode ill...