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Teddy Bar
04-24-2004, 07:27 PM
I feel that without a real manual targeting and TDC then we will be left with a fustrating gaming experience.

Apart from the thrill and sense of achievement from manually targeting and sinking a ship, the fustration of having to live with the auto TDC's built in 'be sure Little Johny is able to be a tonnage leader' would detract from all the overall experience.

What are the Dev team's plans regarding the maunual targeting and TDC?

Also it is my understanding that the German periscope included a device that enabled them to calculate the ships speed through the periscope if the ships length was known .

I quote a translation that I came across quit some time ago...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Feste Linie im Raum (meaning accurate spatial reference)

The term describes an accessory device to U-boat periscopes intended to calculate the speed of an enemy vessel, based on it‚'s known or estimated length.

A vertical thread is seen in the periscope‚'s visual field. The position in space of this reference remains constant even under changes of the course or lateral movements of the U-boat.

The corrections of the position of this reference are made by means of a secondary motor somehow related to a main Kreiselkompass (no idea what kreisel means).

The lateral movement of the reference (thread) is limited, corresponding to +/- 3,5 degrees in the angle of sight.

When the course of the submarine varies more than 3,5 degrees under accessory engine propulsion, the thread moves to one of the sides of the visual field until stopped by a lateral limit. This mechanism is protected by a clutch.

The thread may be centred again in the visual field turning a hand operated lever. Once centred it responds to the control of the secondary engine.

Calculation of the target‚'s speed:

By means of a chronometer, time of the target passing in front of the reference line (thread) is taken.

Once this data is acquired, calculation of the enemy vessel`s speed can be done considering the (known or estimated) length of the target, the target‚'s bearing, the own course, bearing and speed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers,

Teddy B√¬§r

Teddy Bar
04-24-2004, 07:27 PM
I feel that without a real manual targeting and TDC then we will be left with a fustrating gaming experience.

Apart from the thrill and sense of achievement from manually targeting and sinking a ship, the fustration of having to live with the auto TDC's built in 'be sure Little Johny is able to be a tonnage leader' would detract from all the overall experience.

What are the Dev team's plans regarding the maunual targeting and TDC?

Also it is my understanding that the German periscope included a device that enabled them to calculate the ships speed through the periscope if the ships length was known .

I quote a translation that I came across quit some time ago...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Feste Linie im Raum (meaning accurate spatial reference)

The term describes an accessory device to U-boat periscopes intended to calculate the speed of an enemy vessel, based on it‚'s known or estimated length.

A vertical thread is seen in the periscope‚'s visual field. The position in space of this reference remains constant even under changes of the course or lateral movements of the U-boat.

The corrections of the position of this reference are made by means of a secondary motor somehow related to a main Kreiselkompass (no idea what kreisel means).

The lateral movement of the reference (thread) is limited, corresponding to +/- 3,5 degrees in the angle of sight.

When the course of the submarine varies more than 3,5 degrees under accessory engine propulsion, the thread moves to one of the sides of the visual field until stopped by a lateral limit. This mechanism is protected by a clutch.

The thread may be centred again in the visual field turning a hand operated lever. Once centred it responds to the control of the secondary engine.

Calculation of the target‚'s speed:

By means of a chronometer, time of the target passing in front of the reference line (thread) is taken.

Once this data is acquired, calculation of the enemy vessel`s speed can be done considering the (known or estimated) length of the target, the target‚'s bearing, the own course, bearing and speed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers,

Teddy B√¬§r

Drebbel
04-25-2004, 03:58 AM
Its a description of the standard mastheight methode.

SH2 tried to incorporate it in the game as well. Therefore the scope had degree markings and the IDbook listed mastheights. But in order to get it really working properly one needed a couple of mods as well.

A guy named Redwine and his team (over at www.subsim.com (http://www.subsim.com)) develloped a great set of mods and tutorials on manual TDC for SH2. Would be great if the dev team included manual TDC in such a way that Redwine will be unemployed when SH3 comes out :-)

SH3 could be the first subsim that decently supports manual TDC.

IMHO manual TDC ads so much fun and feeling of 'being there' to the game that the SH3 dev team would be ^$#&* if they don't include this feature in a good way !


Drebbel

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TheAirMarshal
04-25-2004, 07:39 AM
Yes manual targeting is very important. I don't see them not including it to be honest.

Leif...
04-26-2004, 04:35 AM
&gt;Its a description of the standard mastheight methode.


How do you figure that? As I understand it it‚'s a totally different thing.

Leif‚...

Redwine
04-26-2004, 07:56 AM
Thanks Drebbel for comments......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The job Drebbel had mentioned is here........ it is a Manual Shooting Tutorial, was made to be used for the Hardcore TDC Mod for SH2, but you can use it to know about manual shooting......

http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/htdcexercise.htm

I think so, Dev. Team can not let at side a good manual shooting ability in the game.......

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CDragon
04-26-2004, 10:53 AM
No little red triangle...
No little red triangle...

Redwine
04-26-2004, 04:01 PM
Yes......

I soupose, sim must to have almost two basic options, a beginer mode, with TDC in Auto mode, and red triangle like as in SH2 for beginers or for hardcore users who want a little rest of manual calculations.............. and a optative TDC in Manual Mode with no red triangle..... for a hardcore use......

All we want to kill that red triangle....... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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[This message was edited by Redwine on Tue April 27 2004 at 08:05 AM.]

xwhitemousex
04-29-2004, 09:31 AM
Manual Targetting, TDC...

That would be a great thing to implement.

And one that is working in regards to finding out distance to ships with the use of mast height data and every little detail needed really.

There should be options to either turn this on or off during gameplay, sort of like the SH2 has the Manual and Auto mode switch.

As per Auto, the calculation would be based on the TDC operators skill (seeing as SH3 is going to have a crew management side)

Or manual, you do the work, and all of it. Thats what fun, at least in my opinion. I like a simulation, not an auto-pilot arcade version :P

Nothing I like better than to do estimates and calculations and then actually see the dang torpedo impact... that makes me overjoyous :P

Maybe a "TDC school" or tutorial to be run seperate from the missions/campaigns, sort of like the training missions, but focused only on the TDC part.

Of course, we cant all sit with stopwatches etc at our desks, so would be nice if there was a small stopwatch command to bring up a lil clock for us to toy with when calculating target speed etc.

Thing is, make it as detailed as possible for the hardcore players, then give options to "tone it down" for the more arcade side players.

Its what we dont have that bothers us, not what we can choose to not have.

Oh, and in regards to,

No red triangle...

This should be an option too, like in European Air Wars, there was an option to turn on a "HUD display" which created a red square around your target.

On realistic difficulty, this square was absent and the only visual you had of the target was the actual target itself, thus made it alot harder to spot in the skies =)

Options, give us options. :P

I want it hardcore, 100% to the bone realistic with TDC control, AA gun control, Deck Gun control and all that jazz.. but I know not all desire that much work, so give them the options to make it Automatic, and give me, or the rest of us, the chance to do it on our own =P

Shan_Hackett
04-29-2004, 03:06 PM
Kreiselkompass - means; Gyroscope compass.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

finchOU
04-29-2004, 03:34 PM
Just have to say I agree with all above on this subject.............and I feel it is one of the most important of the game. Having a real, acurate Manual mode would truely make (or break) this sim, IMHO.

radsov
04-30-2004, 04:59 AM
Sort of on topic-ish for this thread. As regards computer targeting. Didn't some American subs have a targeting computer ? I'm sure I saw some programme or other a while back that described a mechanical device based on gears, cams and levers that could compute the required inputs to the torpedo in real time as the data changed.

They had them in surface vessels but apparently a submarine version was much more difficult and only some US boats had them.

Please don't flame me if these things were only created after the war, my memory on this is vague http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Redwine
04-30-2004, 08:40 AM
Hi...... Rasdov

My english is so bad, excuse me if I misunderstand some thing you are write........

Yes, you are right, that device you had mentioned is the TDC, Torpedo Data Computer, a genius piece of mechanical technology......

American sub has TDC, like as german subs.......

TDC of american sub was a little bit more advanced than german subs, american TDC was fitted almost al last times of war, with an extra device called "position keeper", this device was not present in german TDCs.

This device allow to "track" the target...... after you input the target data, this device asume the target maintain course and speed and give you an so aproximate idea of about where is the target at any moment.......

Of course it was valid if the target do not change course and speed.......

You can do all calculations by "hands" , manually....... but it is a little bit complex, then was introduced this devices to help the crew to make the calculations needed........

Really a wonderful of "ancient" technology......

But, even having this TDC, you need to make some calculations......... you can do them manually too, but for them there are a series of mathematical calculators rulers.......

They make very easy to obtain the data needed to input into the TDC.........

We are talking here, will be great to have this rulers as a standar pack into the game box....... may be into a "deluxe" edition.......

______________________________
.
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
HTDC Tutorial (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.

radsov
04-30-2004, 09:48 AM
Thanks for that explanation. I thought I'd seen somewhere that the US Subs had a more advanced TDC. Glad someone could clarify that, I was beginning to think I'd dreamt it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

I too would like to see some gizmo's in the box to aid manual targeting. I'd settle for buying them as an extra from the Ubisoft web site if they were unwilling to put them in the box because of a slight increase in Shelf price.

Perhaps some clever person here could manufacture one, or create instructions to do so ?

Redwine
05-01-2004, 03:19 PM
Hi.....Radsov.

I do not believe, a plastic set of rulers can increase too much the game price.........

In the other hand, to include a set of plstic calculators rulers can be positive for the developers and publishers.......

Piracy is today a big problem for game makers......... no body in the world will stay with a piracy copy of the game if can have a set of rulers inside the box..........

Beneffits can be for all......to include them can increase sales, and for us, those who buy the games, we can have this "imposible to have" rulers......

We can have them in .pdf to print, but to have them in plastic you need to request ruler builder a big number of them....... it is only posible for the game makers........... imposible for an user........

Here you have a link of a friend, from the 24th Flotilla who is working in the maker of a set of rulers in printed format..........

http://www.24flotilla.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3767

Regards, Red.

______________________________
.
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.

HeibgesU999
05-01-2004, 09:53 PM
control of deck guns and aa guns seems terribly arcadey. both these should be based on the training and experience of your crew. a players ability to manipulate their mouse should have nothing to do with it.

radsov
05-02-2004, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:
Here you have a link of a friend, from the 24th Flotilla who is working in the maker of a set of rulers in printed format..........

http://www.24flotilla.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3767

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HeibgesU999
05-05-2004, 05:13 PM
From reading Iron Coffins, it seems that uboats gathered their attack values during the overhaul manuever, as opposed to during the attack itself.

The speed and course were known before the attack started, and they would make corrections for range.

Is this how it worked?

I hope in SH3 you can program each torpedo tube seperately.

Redwine
05-07-2004, 11:03 AM
Hi......

Radsov.....

at your service.

Heibges........

I am, sure there was many diferent forms to attack, and they was in accordance with age, captain, if he was alone or in a wolf pack, if he has or not air reconoisance suppot and many other factors.....

In SH2 we had done our best effort to convert it fro a funny game into a hardcore simulator, of course all variations are not posible due the sim characteristics.......

I wait, SH3 bring us some improvements specially in wolf pack attacks.........

______________________________
.
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.