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View Full Version : Parry light attack should guarantee a heavy/GB in new patch change



Vonnivek
07-31-2017, 06:01 AM
to Dev. team,
I play on ps4, but even on PC
parry a fast 500ms light isn't so reactable
on ps4, I can sometimes parry light
but I'm not totally based on my reaction,
I based on experience and guessing my opponent's next attack is a light
so if my opponent is going for heavy, I will eat a heavy since my parry is too early

My point is, parry light has it's risk
it's a high risk high reward move
not to mention some character's fast lights are hard to even block

but now in public test 2, parring light only reward you a light
no different from parring a heavy
I think this will only make the game less skill and more brainless light spam

parry a heavy only gaarantee a light is ok
but parry a light should have more reward

Felis_Menari
07-31-2017, 06:43 AM
The light parry change is the one change I can't necessarily get behind. If parrying lights isn't any more rewarding than parrying heavies, why parry any of them except the easy ones? Unless chip damage is added to lights (a significant amount, though being close in chip to heavies would be stupid, so it might not be doable without ramping up heavy chip to allow a significant difference), I foresee a blockpockalypse coming.

kweassa1
07-31-2017, 07:57 AM
Like said, so don't parry them. Problem solved.

ChampionRuby50g
07-31-2017, 08:46 AM
Like said, so don't parry them. Problem solved.

But that's the thing. Should it be so that light parries are obsolete, and not worth the risk at all? Because the changes will make it so we never ever see a light parry again because it's high risk little reward, simply no point in going for them. Might as well remove them from the game, and I personally think that's wrong. A light parry should give a free light or a free GB, which rewards you more than a free heavy.

Knight_Raime
07-31-2017, 10:55 AM
Parrying a light is not difficult at all. It's deffinitely you or your setup if you struggle at doing so.
Making it so parrying a light giving you a heavy or any way in for really easy high damage is a big no.

This is the problem to begin with. and it won't change high skill gameplay at all.
Parrying is now about stopping an opponents aggression to try and get them out of stamina.
And each specific character (nearly) has their own way in after parrying a light via some kind of mix up game.

Lyskir
07-31-2017, 11:33 AM
Parrying a light is not difficult at all. It's deffinitely you or your setup if you struggle at doing so.
Making it so parrying a light giving you a heavy or any way in for really easy high damage is a big no.

This is the problem to begin with. and it won't change high skill gameplay at all.
Parrying is now about stopping an opponents aggression to try and get them out of stamina.
And each specific character (nearly) has their own way in after parrying a light via some kind of mix up game.

i guess you are a assasin main huh?

Parrying a light IS difficult for the majorety of players, even on tournaments i rarely see any lightparrys ( maybe from 600ms light attacks or nobushis ) but a light attack from a cent,warlord or pk are difficult to predict even more when the enemy is feinting alot

ring richard or Zac won they fights in many torunaments with pk by almost only using lights and zone and this will getting even worse with the new meta change cause light spammer have nothing to fear anymore

and dont come with " but they cant spam that much because stamina" Light attacks consume far too little stamina that it could become dangerous at all

Kaijudub
07-31-2017, 11:40 AM
Anyone that says they consistently parry lights on console via reaction in an online fight situation is talking out of their rear end.

Just saying.

kweassa1
07-31-2017, 01:09 PM
If you think parrying lights is obsolete, you're welcome to just keep on blocking lights until you lose 2~3 health bars to lights alone.

Knowing that parrying lights is relatively more difficult than parrying heavies, many people will rely on pressing down on their opponents with light attacks, much more freely than when they had to fear all sorts of cr*pshi* punishment they used to. Is this not the whole point of fixing the defense meta so people would attack more aggressively?

What's the deal with light parries? Since people will attack more with lights and more aggressively and often, being able to parry lights will give you an advantage by disrupting their attack flow, dealing stamina damage, giving you a guaranteed light, and change the initiative so you can press your own attack. if you want anything more than that you attack and deal damage, instead of waiting for one successful parry to automatically guarantee you chunks of heavy damage.

Waiting on defense to predict attacks and deal big counter attack damage by parries, and not taking any risks by just playing it totally safe by not attacking first <-- this is the whole "turtle meta" in a nutshell. So with the new meta-fix, if you want big chunks of damage and rewards take risks accordingly... so the opponent will take advantage when you "open up" to attack, and vice versa. Huh... "turtle meta" fixed.


So what are parries? They are defensive tools to disrupt enemy combat flow.

The role of parry ends there. Don't expect more. If you want defense, defend. If you want damage, go attack.

vgrimr_J
07-31-2017, 01:38 PM
i wish they dont **** up the counter attackers parry punishes. light attack parry still needs to reward top heavy. im fine with the gb removal

Draghmar
07-31-2017, 01:50 PM
i wish they dont **** up the counter attackers parry punishes. light attack parry still needs to reward top heavy. im fine with the gb removal
Which would make turtling the same as now.

kweassa1
07-31-2017, 02:09 PM
Which would make turtling the same as now.

EXACTLY.

Well said, man.

vgrimr_J
07-31-2017, 03:02 PM
Which would make turtling the same as now.

ppl mostly turtled because of the free gb after parry but if they remove that from heavy parries and only give top heavy or gb after light parry because it aint so easy to pull off as ppl think. or givit only for counter attackers because thats their job

Netcode_err_404
07-31-2017, 03:12 PM
A 15/18 damage hit, CANNOT be punished with 5 times its damage.


If a raider parry a light, his top heavy almiost does 50 damage. Its just BROKEN,


Pk should be slowered

Orochi top double light damage should be lowered.


Parrying a pk light, is not like parring a shugo light, but both are punished the same way.


Totally not legit.

AzureSky.
07-31-2017, 03:41 PM
to Dev. team,
I play on ps4, but even on PC
parry a fast 500ms light isn't so reactable
on ps4, I can sometimes parry light
but I'm not totally based on my reaction,
I based on experience and guessing my opponent's next attack is a light
so if my opponent is going for heavy, I will eat a heavy since my parry is too early

My point is, parry light has it's risk
it's a high risk high reward move
not to mention some character's fast lights are hard to even block

but now in public test 2, parring light only reward you a light
no different from parring a heavy
I think this will only make the game less skill and more brainless light spam

parry a heavy only gaarantee a light is ok
but parry a light should have more reward

I did a parry changes thread that makes 500ms attacks have the same ammount of frame advantage as live version, the parry system is based on the speed of the attacks and not on the attack type (heavy or light) you can read it here : http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1715978-Parry-System-Reworked-(A-better-parry-system-that-promotes-skill-and-dont-reduce-it)

Vonnivek
07-31-2017, 06:46 PM
If you think parrying lights is obsolete, you're welcome to just keep on blocking lights until you lose 2~3 health bars to lights alone.

Knowing that parrying lights is relatively more difficult than parrying heavies, many people will rely on pressing down on their opponents with light attacks, much more freely than when they had to fear all sorts of cr*pshi* punishment they used to. Is this not the whole point of fixing the defense meta so people would attack more aggressively?

What's the deal with light parries? Since people will attack more with lights and more aggressively and often, being able to parry lights will give you an advantage by disrupting their attack flow, dealing stamina damage, giving you a guaranteed light, and change the initiative so you can press your own attack. if you want anything more than that you attack and deal damage, instead of waiting for one successful parry to automatically guarantee you chunks of heavy damage.

Waiting on defense to predict attacks and deal big counter attack damage by parries, and not taking any risks by just playing it totally safe by not attacking first <-- this is the whole "turtle meta" in a nutshell. So with the new meta-fix, if you want big chunks of damage and rewards take risks accordingly... so the opponent will take advantage when you "open up" to attack, and vice versa. Huh... "turtle meta" fixed.


So what are parries? They are defensive tools to disrupt enemy combat flow.

The role of parry ends there. Don't expect more. If you want defense, defend. If you want damage, go attack.

parry a light doesn't mean the player is a turtle
to fight some heroes like PK, valk...etc, whose player usually spam fast light
you have to parry light to punish them
now parring a light only give you a light
those heroes don't have any risk to spam light
and on console, this problem will be more severe

and btw, I nearly never encounter a so-called "turtle" on ps4
in 1v1 or 2v2, people often attack, not like you said just waiting for others to attack first and parry
and in dominion, the tempo is so fast that no ones "turtle"

Knight_Raime
07-31-2017, 08:12 PM
i guess you are a assasin main huh?

Parrying a light IS difficult for the majorety of players, even on tournaments i rarely see any lightparrys ( maybe from 600ms light attacks or nobushis ) but a light attack from a cent,warlord or pk are difficult to predict even more when the enemy is feinting alot

ring richard or Zac won they fights in many torunaments with pk by almost only using lights and zone and this will getting even worse with the new meta change cause light spammer have nothing to fear anymore

and dont come with " but they cant spam that much because stamina" Light attacks consume far too little stamina that it could become dangerous at all

1) No. I'm a cent main. I parry pretty much everyone consistently except pk and valk. and if I use a monitor I parry them a lot more often.

2) you kind of proved my point. it's the OP. not lights being hard to parry.

3). Tournament gameplay doesn't back you up. Those players are not stupid enough to throw out random lights. They only throw out attacks they know will not be dealt with (safe attacks) and parry when they tricked the opponent into thinking they had an in. The lack of parries there is not due to difficulty.

4) I've been over this so many times. The x amount of ms is a crutch argument that only works for new players. if you've been playing for honor since launch and been playing it a reasonable amount each week you should be used to the speeds of a majority of the cast. Cent's lights are parried literally all the time. same with warlord. PK's lights are not difficult because of the speed. They are "hard" to parry because of the animation.

With pk it's a stab. and it's animation doesn't really give anything away. and could come from any side. Versus say an orochi where his top lights people know about. Cent's lights are just as fast as pk's but get parried far more often because they are very telegraphed. Pk and valk lights are not telegraphed very much thus why people struggle with them.

5) I haven't watched zac. But i've seen richard play. you're over simplifying it. he changes directions. he also feints heavies or sometimes lets them fly. Spamming doesn't win tournaments. It might look like mindless spam to someone like you if you don't really understand the mind games portion of fighting. But he's not literally mashing light and zone. I watched a video recently with the pts. and pk can get I believe 6 lights out before the next one would drain stamina. if all someone does is spam light to someone not OOS they will be parried. even on a pk. and even if they don't they would stop at 6 lest going into OOS. that's when someone can press the advantage.

Regardless of all of that it doesn't change a thing I said.
The problem in high level of play right now is that people focus on parrying. they block anything they don't feel comfortable attempting to parry. and they occasionally feint to try and force a parry if the other person isn't as aggressive. If they get a parry they get loads of free damage. This is the problem. and making someone only get a light guarenteed regardless of what they parry means people will have to use mix ups/be more aggressive if they want more. which is a good thing.

You can argue with me about how easy or not lights are to parry till your face is blue. Frankly I don't care. I don't struggle parrying most of the cast and i'm not even amazing at this game.
What you can't argue about is the fact that parries as they stand let tons of free good damage happen. and that in high level play this is all people really go for. That is why we are having the defensive meta changes even happening.

If you personally don't experience these problems when you play good on you. But all that means is you're playing in a lower skilled bracket. It doesn't mean these issues are not real.

Knight_Raime
07-31-2017, 08:18 PM
parry a light doesn't mean the player is a turtle
to fight some heroes like PK, valk...etc, whose player usually spam fast light
you have to parry light to punish them
now parring a light only give you a light
those heroes don't have any risk to spam light
and on console, this problem will be more severe

and btw, I nearly never encounter a so-called "turtle" on ps4
in 1v1 or 2v2, people often attack, not like you said just waiting for others to attack first and parry
and in dominion, the tempo is so fast that no ones "turtle"

Turtle also doesn't mean they don't ever attack. People use the term turtle to refer to 2 things.
1) "turtling up" when the opponent is on their last bar of health. at this point they will only throw out attacks that are safe. and wait for parries.

2) or the second. where someone plays mainly reactionary.

Basically if someone hardly ever takes the role of the aggressor they are called a turtle. people play like this both on console and on pc. if you don't run into many reactionary players you must be in a lower skilled bracket. I play xbox and in my skill bracket you've got 2 people. the kind who are aggressive (me.) and those who only try to react to what you do. and throw the occasional safe attacks (like zones)

AzureSky.
07-31-2017, 11:01 PM
Turtle also doesn't mean they don't ever attack. People use the term turtle to refer to 2 things.
1) "turtling up" when the opponent is on their last bar of health. at this point they will only throw out attacks that are safe. and wait for parries.

2) or the second. where someone plays mainly reactionary.

Basically if someone hardly ever takes the role of the aggressor they are called a turtle. people play like this both on console and on pc. if you don't run into many reactionary players you must be in a lower skilled bracket. I play xbox and in my skill bracket you've got 2 people. the kind who are aggressive (me.) and those who only try to react to what you do. and throw the occasional safe attacks (like zones)

Well i think i have a mixed opinion, 500 ms or lower parrys should give the actual light frame advantage, high tiers players (me included) use a combination of heavy - feints into safe 500 ms or lower light parrys (pc) not a lot of people parry them (i do it 100% of the times in a green - green very stable connection, but i just practiced for it and have better reflexes overral) and this in high elo

But at the other side some "lights" have heavy speed and give a lot of frame advantage, the same can be said about the dash moves, they all are really easy to parry.

kweassa1
08-01-2017, 02:06 AM
ppl mostly turtled because of the free gb after parry but if they remove that from heavy parries and only give top heavy or gb after light parry because it aint so easy to pull off as ppl think. or givit only for counter attackers because thats their job

Or, you can stop whining about how parries should you give freebie heavy damage, and go attack more.

Like, If you want to deal heavy damage, go attack with your heavy and land it.

That's the whole point of the meta-fix.

kweassa1
08-01-2017, 02:30 AM
Well i think i have a mixed opinion, 500 ms or lower parrys should give the actual light frame advantage, high tiers players (me included) use a combination of heavy - feints into safe 500 ms or lower light parrys (pc) not a lot of people parry them (i do it 100% of the times in a green - green very stable connection, but i just practiced for it and have better reflexes overral) and this in high elo

But at the other side some "lights" have heavy speed and give a lot of frame advantage, the same can be said about the dash moves, they all are really easy to parry.


You keep repeating that, except there is no reason to give out differing profits for parries.

What's the purpose? It doesn't serve any beneficial purpose towards fixing the meta at all, and simply nullifies whatever intentions the meta-fix had in the first place. Speaking in reverse psychology, the reason why people want better rewards on light parries is exactly why it should not be given.

People used to the old "turtling" meta feel uncomfortable with attacking, because it feels unsafe. Using your own attacks feel uncomfortable, so they'd rather just defend and wait for successful parry opportunities.They manage to get a successful and masterful light parry, but then remember that there are no big rewards for it, and get miffed by it... except this is the very mindset that the new meta-fix is trying to get rid of.

Why expect a hefty chunk of damage when nothing what you did was offensive in nature? Parry already served its purpose by stopping enemy attacks dead in their tracks, turned the tables around, and allows you start your own series of attacks with the enemy on the defense this time. It already did its job. Don't expect more from it.

That's the whole deal with the meta change. If you want to win, you need to deal damage. And to deal damage, you must land your own attacks. To attack, you open yourself up. This presents both dangers and opportunities for the opponent, and vice versa. The whole deal is to shift to a mindset and tactics to think about how to actually land your direct attacks during the course of active ffense, rather than thinking of ways to draw an attack and parry it during passive defense.

To do so, defense action must never lead into damage strong enough to win games by defense alone.

Stopping enemy combat flow, retaking the initiative that starts with your guaranteed light attack after a parry, is reward plenty enough.

Knight_Raime
08-01-2017, 11:52 AM
You keep repeating that, except there is no reason to give out differing profits for parries.

What's the purpose? It doesn't serve any beneficial purpose towards fixing the meta at all, and simply nullifies whatever intentions the meta-fix had in the first place. Speaking in reverse psychology, the reason why people want better rewards on light parries is exactly why it should not be given.

People used to the old "turtling" meta feel uncomfortable with attacking, because it feels unsafe. Using your own attacks feel uncomfortable, so they'd rather just defend and wait for successful parry opportunities.They manage to get a successful and masterful light parry, but then remember that there are no big rewards for it, and get miffed by it... except this is the very mindset that the new meta-fix is trying to get rid of.

Why expect a hefty chunk of damage when nothing what you did was offensive in nature? Parry already served its purpose by stopping enemy attacks dead in their tracks, turned the tables around, and allows you start your own series of attacks with the enemy on the defense this time. It already did its job. Don't expect more from it.

That's the whole deal with the meta change. If you want to win, you need to deal damage. And to deal damage, you must land your own attacks. To attack, you open yourself up. This presents both dangers and opportunities for the opponent, and vice versa. The whole deal is to shift to a mindset and tactics to think about how to actually land your direct attacks during the course of active ffense, rather than thinking of ways to draw an attack and parry it during passive defense.

To do so, defense action must never lead into damage strong enough to win games by defense alone.

Stopping enemy combat flow, retaking the initiative that starts with your guaranteed light attack after a parry, is reward plenty enough.

beautifully written.

ThomHermans1
08-01-2017, 12:54 PM
Parry a light attack should give you a GB. Parry a heavy attack should only give you stamina loss, no GB.
A GB should reward you with a light, and not a heavy.

this means if you fail the parry you eat a light attack and if you get the parry you deal a light attack (via GB).
Give heavy attack proper chip damage to give the defender a reason to parry a heavy attack.

(GB > Wall > Heavy should still work)

I would like to test how that will work out
what you you guys think?

Felis_Menari
08-01-2017, 01:41 PM
The problem with no light parry advantage is that some lights (or light chains) are better than others (just the way it is). In essence, with no extra benefit over heavy parries, certain lights will not be worth the risk of a parry attempt. But, so long as lights still don't do chip damage, I guess it's not the end of the world, though it may lead to an imbalance barring any further changes to lights in general.

Lyskir
08-01-2017, 02:04 PM
The problem with no light parry advantage is that some lights (or light chains) are better than others (just the way it is). In essence, with no extra benefit over heavy parries, certain lights will not be worth the risk of a parry attempt. But, so long as lights still don't do chip damage, I guess it's not the end of the world, though it may lead to an imbalance barring any further changes to lights in general.

as i know lights do chip dmg on ptr, or am i wrong?

Snoop_Godly
08-01-2017, 02:30 PM
OK. As I know there is a lot of turtling on Xbox. 4v4 is rife with it. Run into two or three players. Defend and parry just to build revenge and then go mental. Personally. This defensive meta will stop a lot of problems. That witch I have just stated. But why should a parry reward anything? It's a defensive move that turns the table in your favour to deal damage on them. As an orochi main I don't parry. I deflect. I use both of them and I use the deflect with the zerker. I consider my self a good player. I am aggressive and I don't block to much. I take risks all the time. I mean. Why have a move that deals good damage but not using it just because it's not safe. Il admit. I die a lot. People bag me a lot. I find it funny because all those do is either parry me (play safe) or come at me in twos or more. But when I land the deflect and win? Spammed with wows. For me and a lot of people on for honor. This defensive meta is going to be a breath of fresh air. It's going to give me two options and a lot more openings. These parry god/turtles are really going to struggle. There only used to getting free damage or attacking for with revenge. Personally I can't wait :D

Snoop_Godly
08-01-2017, 02:35 PM
I know not in ptr it's only heavies. But I'd think lights on the ptr would do chip damage but not a lot that's worth anything. I'm assuming ubisoft has taking into mind that people who just spam lights hoping for a full bar of health would be a problem. So I think lights do very little. Spamming and losing all your stamina wouldn't be worth it. Going into oos is going make people think twice about it. Reward isnt worth the risk. It's a good thing I think. Chip damage and no free damage to parris will make it a lot more fast paced. No more staring games and long waiting.

Knight_Raime
08-01-2017, 09:23 PM
Parry a light attack should give you a GB. Parry a heavy attack should only give you stamina loss, no GB.
A GB should reward you with a light, and not a heavy.

this means if you fail the parry you eat a light attack and if you get the parry you deal a light attack (via GB).
Give heavy attack proper chip damage to give the defender a reason to parry a heavy attack.

(GB > Wall > Heavy should still work)

I would like to test how that will work out
what you you guys think?

Problem is due to attack speed and animation length if you can get a GB off a light parry certain people would be able to get a heavy off. Which would be bad.
if parrying a heavy only gave stam damage to the enemy it would rarely be done. and while the chip damage from a blocked heavy would be nice it wouldn't be enough.

Making both light and heavy give the same means one isn't better to parry than the other. Which is good. Because lesser skilled players could parry heavies and still attempt to get something out of it. And good players can parry lights on top of heavies. Thus meaning the attacker has to play better against the person. The only difference i'd be fine with between the 1 is to have light parries do slightly more stamina damage. but that's really it.

Lyskir
08-01-2017, 09:32 PM
Problem is due to attack speed and animation length if you can get a GB off a light parry certain people would be able to get a heavy off. Which would be bad.
if parrying a heavy only gave stam damage to the enemy it would rarely be done. and while the chip damage from a blocked heavy would be nice it wouldn't be enough.

Making both light and heavy give the same means one isn't better to parry than the other. Which is good. Because lesser skilled players could parry heavies and still attempt to get something out of it. And good players can parry lights on top of heavies. Thus meaning the attacker has to play better against the person. The only difference i'd be fine with between the 1 is to have light parries do slightly more stamina damage. but that's really it.

thats a really good idea, im fine with that

UbiJurassic
08-02-2017, 02:35 AM
Thanks for the feedback on the changes so far everyone! We're starting to dive into all the feedback players posted and we'll be looking very closely on what needs to be adjusted for the future.

Justicator
08-02-2017, 05:39 AM
I believe that FH is approaching a critical time; it's player base is going to be divided into 2 main groups:
1. Those that loved the 2nd PTR changes and want aggressive play to be more rewarding then turtling
2. Those that hated the 2nd PTR OR never tested it but love to cheese the game with turtling and landing only safe hits.

It's up to UBI to decide what kind of players they wish to cater. Whatever they decide, people will leave the game. You can't please everyone. This is normal. Thankfully, I believe they are committed to eventually change the turtling meta, and this in turn will probably bring in old players that left because of the stupid turtling.

Vonnivek
08-02-2017, 06:08 AM
I have a question to those who said light parry is easy,
does parry a light still easy if the opponent mix heavy and feint with light together?
If I know my opponent favors light attack then I can parry light easier,
but if he mix heavy, feint, light together, it's very hard for me to parry
(I'm on PS4, but I also watch twitch, those streamer still get hit by heavy when guessing wrong)
in that case, parring a light isn't no risk
I have to take a risk that my opponent is going for a light, not a heavy
if he is going for a heavy then I'll get hit by the heavy
that's why I think parring a light should have more reward than only a light, because it's risk is higher than parring a heavy
maybe reward a heavy is too much, but reward only a light is too little I think
however I never had a chance to test PTS on console, so it's just my imagination based on my experience and what I saw on stream

I don't support turtle meta which only do safe move
but I don't support a too aggressively spam meta as well
In reality, people fight/duel with moves that test the opponent, and predict the opponent's next move to try to win
people won't all-in soon in a fight
In today's meta, this part is doing fine I think
just hope the next patch won't ruin this

Camemberto
08-02-2017, 07:24 AM
You don't really have to parry a light attack, since simply blocking them already breaks the chain which might already be enough to get a guardbreak through to an unsuspecting enemy. Now at that point the enemy will either try anew or do something else. Another light? Block it. A heavy? There's your parry.

I like how different moves should be reacted to differently. There's nothing wrong with having a high risk low reward move in the game. Your followup attack should be hard to react to, that I agree with, but it should not be guaranteed.

Generally I feel like any sort of guaranteed attack or guardbreak is a nono...
I love the fact that purely by making a mistake will you get damaged, not by simply being parried.

matt89connor
08-02-2017, 07:48 AM
The parry of a light attack must only guarantee a light (where many heroes were able to launch specific tactics) and take away the stamina of the enemy (30% for the slower light 40% for the fastest), so those who abuse will remain easily Without stamina if he will suffer and will be at the mercy of the enemy.
The heavy parry though, should guarantee the GB, but the GB should not be garantee the heavy, because there are many heroes, who have parry techniques and others who have techniques after specific projection(nobushi for example), this is what makes turtle dangerous and ruin game: so , with my change the parry will still have value but will not be OP

Felis_Menari
08-02-2017, 08:13 AM
as i know lights do chip dmg on ptr, or am i wrong?

I'm a filthy console peasant when it comes to For Honor, so no PTR for me.

kweassa1
08-02-2017, 08:30 AM
I have a question to those who said light parry is easy,
does parry a light still easy if the opponent mix heavy and feint with light together?
If I know my opponent favors light attack then I can parry light easier,
but if he mix heavy, feint, light together, it's very hard for me to parry
(I'm on PS4, but I also watch twitch, those streamer still get hit by heavy when guessing wrong)
in that case, parring a light isn't no risk
I have to take a risk that my opponent is going for a light, not a heavy
if he is going for a heavy then I'll get hit by the heavy
that's why I think parring a light should have more reward than only a light, because it's risk is higher than parring a heavy
maybe reward a heavy is too much, but reward only a light is too little I think
however I never had a chance to test PTS on console, so it's just my imagination based on my experience and what I saw on stream

I don't support turtle meta which only do safe move
but I don't support a too aggressively spam meta as well
In reality, people fight/duel with moves that test the opponent, and predict the opponent's next move to try to win
people won't all-in soon in a fight
In today's meta, this part is doing fine I think
just hope the next patch won't ruin this

There is literally no reason to give light parries any hefty rewards in form of damage.

The only effect giving light parries heavy punishment is nothing other than going straight back to turtling.

matt89connor
08-02-2017, 08:51 AM
There is literally no reason to give light parries any hefty rewards in form of damage.

The only effect giving light parries heavy punishment is nothing other than going straight back to turtling.

punish a light with heavy gives too mouch gift, but give heavy after GB give more gift to turtle and remove many tattics that can be used , give all players GB heavy meccanics, but in this game every heroes has different tattics to face an enemy so should remove that meccanic

Felis_Menari
08-02-2017, 09:46 AM
Hmmm...as an alternative to the major bump in chip damage that folks say the current PTR is running, perhaps stamina damage on heavy blocks (perhaps lights as well, but the stamina loss would have to be small) should be given a try as well? It certainly is sounding more appealing now, given the current alternative of ridonculous chip damage.

matt89connor
08-02-2017, 09:53 AM
Hmmm...as an alternative to the major bump in chip damage that folks say the current PTR is running, perhaps stamina damage on heavy blocks (perhaps lights as well, but the stamina loss would have to be small) should be given a try as well? It certainly is sounding more appealing now, given the current alternative of ridonculous chip damage.

stamina dmg on block even heavy and light maybe ....could be an idea ;)...but in pTR the block yet stop stamina regen soo i think can be more dangerous, a most important problem is the CHIP DMG don't kill ,this is the idea i don't like

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 10:33 AM
I have a question to those who said light parry is easy,
does parry a light still easy if the opponent mix heavy and feint with light together?
If I know my opponent favors light attack then I can parry light easier,
but if he mix heavy, feint, light together, it's very hard for me to parry
(I'm on PS4, but I also watch twitch, those streamer still get hit by heavy when guessing wrong)
in that case, parring a light isn't no risk
I have to take a risk that my opponent is going for a light, not a heavy
if he is going for a heavy then I'll get hit by the heavy
that's why I think parring a light should have more reward than only a light, because it's risk is higher than parring a heavy
maybe reward a heavy is too much, but reward only a light is too little I think
however I never had a chance to test PTS on console, so it's just my imagination based on my experience and what I saw on stream

I don't support turtle meta which only do safe move
but I don't support a too aggressively spam meta as well
In reality, people fight/duel with moves that test the opponent, and predict the opponent's next move to try to win
people won't all-in soon in a fight
In today's meta, this part is doing fine I think
just hope the next patch won't ruin this


If I understand you're asking me if parrying a light becomes harder when the opponent mixes his moves instead of light spams?
I would say it depends on the hero. But overall I only really struggle to parry the pk and valk. and it's not due to their attack speed. but their attacks being barely telegraphed.
On a monitor using my xbox controller (wireless) on xbox one I was able to in a few hours parry both of those people more consistently.

When I or others say "parrying a light is easy" we're not parry gods who can parry every single light thrown at us. We are merely stating that most lights in the game are reasonably reactable to. and that the barrier between you simply blocking it and you parrying it isn't a huge one. and just takes time and practice. Parrying a light only seems difficult because of where you currently sit. if parrying a light was so difficult to do you'd see a lot more landed attacks with higher skilled players. instead you see staring contests with feint games.

It's just not good from a design standpoint to hinge so much on one specific thing. it bottlenecks things too much.

Parrying in itself does good stamina damage now. on top of some free small actual damage. that's good enough. the "reward" for being able to consistently parrying lights and heavies is that you can mind game the heck out of the opponent. Because with these new changes they have no clue which attacks or how many you'll choose to parry. they will have to be that much more careful when throwing attacks out. This gives you the ability to play aggressor and pressure them till they are struggling to keep up.

I don't believe spam will become meta. since parrying in itself isn't difficult. spamming might work in lower tier play. But that's not exactly new. and it's basically how you're supposed to play 4v4 anyway.

Felis_Menari
08-02-2017, 10:44 AM
stamina dmg on block even heavy and light maybe ....could be an idea ;)...but in pTR the block yet stop stamina regen soo i think can be more dangerous, a most important problem is the CHIP DMG don't kill ,this is the idea i don't like

I'm fine with chip being able to kill (causing your enemy to crumple under your onslaught). But if that's the case, chip can't be a major factor in terms of damage in my opinion (unless maxed on chip damage, of course). Solid hits are what should be doing most of the damage. If chip damage does any more than 1/4 of an opponent's total health going from the start of a fight to defeat, then it's too much (unless excessive blocking/turtling is involved).

matt89connor
08-02-2017, 12:09 PM
I'm fine with chip being able to kill (causing your enemy to crumple under your onslaught). But if that's the case, chip can't be a major factor in terms of damage in my opinion (unless maxed on chip damage, of course). Solid hits are what should be doing most of the damage. If chip damage does any more than 1/4 of an opponent's total health going from the start of a fight to defeat, then it's too much (unless excessive blocking/turtling is involved).

exactly that's i want say, if chip don't kill, when both players are near end of life, they start block turtle, and wait for perfect parry for win, so every duel will cometo this...chip dmg has to be used like is now in original game but with18(maybe 20)% of original dmg

Draghmar
08-02-2017, 12:13 PM
No it shouldn't. There is too big imbalance between classes in terms of spamming attacks.

Vingrask
08-02-2017, 08:47 PM
No, Parry shouldn't guaranteed even a light. Parry should only damage stamina and change the momentum, only that. PTS changes are the first step to make heroes kits viable, to make one need to master the own hero, not the core game only to be able to compete.

Netcode_err_404
08-02-2017, 09:03 PM
No, Parry shouldn't guaranteed even a light. Parry should only damage stamina and change the momentum, only that. PTS changes are the first step to make heroes kits viable, to make one need to master the own hero, not the core game only to be able to compete.

PK main ?

Vonnivek
08-03-2017, 11:21 AM
No, Parry shouldn't guaranteed even a light. Parry should only damage stamina and change the momentum, only that. PTS changes are the first step to make heroes kits viable, to make one need to master the own hero, not the core game only to be able to compete.

this is bad
I think parry is the heart of this game, which makes this game so special

in the other hand, after parry is nerf,
I think all unblockable CC like SB, head butt, raider rush..etc should be nerf
GB need to be nerf too
these moves are too unrealistic, and makes the game looks so stupid when high-level tournament player only spam raider rush...etc

My.Insanity
08-03-2017, 12:18 PM
Parry should only give a free light... like it was on the PTS and Heros with a parry followup or deflect skill should be looked into (are they too rewarding? did they need a buff?)... If parry rewards you with a GB its too powerfull even if a GB dont give a garanteed Heavy because you can throw your enemy into walls or ledges which will lead to much more dmg. Also GB stops the momentum of the fight which is bad.

No matter if they use the new or the old system.. the Devs need to rework / rebalance the most Heros in time. Its a good thing that all Heros have pros and cons but if they are not on the same lvl any "denfensive changes" mean nothing.

AzureSky.
08-03-2017, 04:14 PM
You keep repeating that, except there is no reason to give out differing profits for parries.

What's the purpose? It doesn't serve any beneficial purpose towards fixing the meta at all, and simply nullifies whatever intentions the meta-fix had in the first place. Speaking in reverse psychology, the reason why people want better rewards on light parries is exactly why it should not be given.

People used to the old "turtling" meta feel uncomfortable with attacking, because it feels unsafe. Using your own attacks feel uncomfortable, so they'd rather just defend and wait for successful parry opportunities.They manage to get a successful and masterful light parry, but then remember that there are no big rewards for it, and get miffed by it... except this is the very mindset that the new meta-fix is trying to get rid of.

Why expect a hefty chunk of damage when nothing what you did was offensive in nature? Parry already served its purpose by stopping enemy attacks dead in their tracks, turned the tables around, and allows you start your own series of attacks with the enemy on the defense this time. It already did its job. Don't expect more from it.

That's the whole deal with the meta change. If you want to win, you need to deal damage. And to deal damage, you must land your own attacks. To attack, you open yourself up. This presents both dangers and opportunities for the opponent, and vice versa. The whole deal is to shift to a mindset and tactics to think about how to actually land your direct attacks during the course of active ffense, rather than thinking of ways to draw an attack and parry it during passive defense.

To do so, defense action must never lead into damage strong enough to win games by defense alone.

Stopping enemy combat flow, retaking the initiative that starts with your guaranteed light attack after a parry, is reward plenty enough.



500 ms attacks are NOT UNSAFE, people spam them all the time, nerfing parry light frame advantage (on 500 ms or less moves) is just going to make the turtle to change into orochi, warlord after parry follow up and centurion after parry follow up, turtle meta intact, adding knowledge into each parry frame advantage makes the game more unpredictable, people that know what move is safe and whats not will get better results and people that dont will still spam moves that are going to be blocked.

You clearly dont understand the games combat flow, its a medieval warfare fighting game that is based on REACTION! You are not supposed to make a 20 hit combo with specials in between, its not that kind of game, also its not a spam friendly game, you are not supposed to make a chain without problems and kill someone... only if they change the chains and make more unpredictable (that + parry frame advantage based on speed is going to fix the game)

AzureSky.
08-03-2017, 04:20 PM
Problem is due to attack speed and animation length if you can get a GB off a light parry certain people would be able to get a heavy off. Which would be bad.
if parrying a heavy only gave stam damage to the enemy it would rarely be done. and while the chip damage from a blocked heavy would be nice it wouldn't be enough.

Making both light and heavy give the same means one isn't better to parry than the other. Which is good. Because lesser skilled players could parry heavies and still attempt to get something out of it. And good players can parry lights on top of heavies. Thus meaning the attacker has to play better against the person. The only difference i'd be fine with between the 1 is to have light parries do slightly more stamina damage. but that's really it.

Except this would change the focus into characters that gets more beneffits after a parry..... also top ranked players use 500ms lights between feints since they are pretty much safe, the current frame advantage is a REWARD for parrying that and it should be that way.

If they go with this PTR changes we will see warlord, orochi, centurion being picked a lot more since they get pretty much the live version parry damage + more stamina damage, with no changes to the turtle meta :)