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wethebishop
07-31-2017, 01:40 AM
What do you guys think?

I think it could work well with the health regeneration to 25.

Players would be still be playing defensively under 25 health, but they would be trying to hold on to regenerate while the other player is trying to finish them off and expending stamina. It seems more exciting this way to me. Combined with being able to parry while OOS and I think the combat system would be great and very exciting.

Currently, I think the turtling under 25 health is a little anticlimactic.

Knight_Raime
07-31-2017, 11:06 AM
Hard to say. On one hand it would mean players would likely be more aggressive and try to go for that chip kill. which puts more pressure on the defender to actually do something. which means the skill gap could widen. those who can't parry/deflect to stop a helpless spammer will be that much farther away from good players. On the other hand it would encourage spamming. Which would shorten the gap. and feel a bit too punishing for someone who messed up simply once (part of the big reason why parries got nerfed.)

Spamming for chip should really only exist when the opponent is OOS. because there is meant to be pressure there. at the same time as the aggressor you can't spam them willy nilly in OOS. because if you slip they will parry you when they are no longer out of stamina. and then you're thrown into OOS. so it's pretty nice.

So. I'd say for now no. chip shouldn't kill.

CandleInTheDark
07-31-2017, 11:25 AM
My opinion is no, at least not outside out of stamina state (undecided on when they are in it) because that will give too much of a advantage to those that can spam lights quicker.

JBirse had some very good points in that it will turn the last bar of hp into the new turtle defensive meta situation when arguing that it should, if I recall her other solution was to remove regen which is less than ideal also (and wasn't her favourite option either). My thought on it is to keep chip damage none lethal and keep regen but lower the amount of regen to the lowest light punish, there is still the question as to what happens on the last hp if chip gets them there but if they add the three minute clock and lowest hp loses rule they have from ranked into regular duel the clock works against them if they refuse to engage.

Knight_Raime
07-31-2017, 11:32 AM
My opinion is no, at least not outside out of stamina state (undecided on when they are in it) because that will give too much of a advantage to those that can spam lights quicker.

JBirse had some very good points in that it will turn the last bar of hp into the new turtle defensive meta situation when arguing that it should, if I recall her other solution was to remove regen which is less than ideal also (and wasn't her favourite option either). My thought on it is to keep chip damage none lethal and keep regen but lower the amount of regen to the lowest light punish, there is still the question as to what happens on the last hp if chip gets them there but if they add the three minute clock and lowest hp loses rule they have from ranked into regular duel the clock works against them if they refuse to engage.

I would say that it shouldn't be possible even in OOS. because that just puts all the focus back on parrying. but instead of parrying to get guarenteed high damage punish you are parrying to guarentee a chip death.

CandleInTheDark
07-31-2017, 12:53 PM
I would say that it shouldn't be possible even in OOS. because that just puts all the focus back on parrying. but instead of parrying to get guarenteed high damage punish you are parrying to guarentee a chip death.

Yeah that is why I wasn't so sure, I mentioned it because the argument is there but I wouldn't be a fan of that.

SikanderAzam
07-31-2017, 10:05 PM
I definitely don't think chip should kill. I support the concept of chip damage to avoid people just turtling up with no risk until they get a revenge, but killing just seems excessive. Because there are times when you actually need to turtle up in unfair fights like a 3v1, and it seems stupid that the 3 could just spam heavies on you and you'd die anyway even if you had the reflexes and presence of mind to block everything. And that's the situation in which dying from chip damage would arise in.

Alustar.
07-31-2017, 11:10 PM
Hard to say. On one hand it would mean players would likely be more aggressive and try to go for that chip kill. which puts more pressure on the defender to actually do something. which means the skill gap could widen. those who can't parry/deflect to stop a helpless spammer will be that much farther away from good players. On the other hand it would encourage spamming. Which would shorten the gap. and feel a bit too punishing for someone who messed up simply once (part of the big reason why parries got nerfed.)

Spamming for chip should really only exist when the opponent is OOS. because there is meant to be pressure there. at the same time as the aggressor you can't spam them willy nilly in OOS. because if you slip they will parry you when they are no longer out of stamina. and then you're thrown into OOS. so it's pretty nice.

So. I'd say for now no. chip shouldn't kill.

I want to add on to this in a stance of 4v4 if chip kills it means players are that much more suceptable to wild chip kills. And while I'm all on board with the "stay with the group" train, it's then that we would see wild spam. Cause now defense really doesn't mean anything, cause now you can be focused by 2-3 players, play well and still lose out to attack spam.

I think the ability to keep a person beneath that 25% threshold is enough of a mind game.

Alienjf
07-31-2017, 11:25 PM
why put it in the first place if its not gonna determine the outcome of the fight,players will turtle when in critical health.

Knight_Raime
07-31-2017, 11:59 PM
I want to add on to this in a stance of 4v4 if chip kills it means players are that much more suceptable to wild chip kills. And while I'm all on board with the "stay with the group" train, it's then that we would see wild spam. Cause now defense really doesn't mean anything, cause now you can be focused by 2-3 players, play well and still lose out to attack spam.

I think the ability to keep a person beneath that 25% threshold is enough of a mind game.

I don't really play 4v4 but I'd have to agree with your logic.


why put it in the first place if its not gonna determine the outcome of the fight,players will turtle when in critical health.

The idea of making chip be a thing isn't to secure kills. it's to add a downside to blocking/playing super passive.
People will turtle at critical regardless. That's why we need to make it so it doesn't regen to 25 and instead regens to the lowest parry punish.
and bring in the tournament mechanic where in a time out the lowest hp person loses.

It doesn't stop turtling out right. But nothing will do that that won't end up hurting the game in other ways. Some people would still take pleasure in wasting someones time. but you can't really fix that. Most people would probably give up the turtling if they won't be able to win from it. where as there are plenty of negatives that come with letting chip kill.

SenBotsu893
08-01-2017, 12:40 AM
if it cant kill then there is no point to chip damage at all.

its meant to undermine the turlte play. if it wont kill then why should someone stop turling?

Alustar.
08-01-2017, 12:41 AM
I don't really play 4v4 but I'd have to agree with your logic.



The idea of making chip be a thing isn't to secure kills. it's to add a downside to blocking/playing super passive.
People will turtle at critical regardless. That's why we need to make it so it doesn't regen to 25 and instead regens to the lowest parry punish.
and bring in the tournament mechanic where in a time out the lowest hp person loses.

It doesn't stop turtling out right. But nothing will do that that won't end up hurting the game in other ways. Some people would still take pleasure in wasting someones time. but you can't really fix that. Most people would probably give up the turtling if they won't be able to win from it. where as there are plenty of negatives that come with letting chip kill.

I could maybe see enabling chip kills in 1v1s or at least testing it out for a little bit and see how it goes. Similar to how they treat revenge.

Alustar.
08-01-2017, 12:46 AM
if it cant kill then there is no point to chip damage at all.

its meant to undermine the turlte play. if it wont kill then why should someone stop turling?

Well that's an assumption on your part that the whole thing is set up that way. I currently would like to see them not only add the chip damage like they do but then allow light hits to not interrupt the combo chain on block. Only blocked heavies would. Then even without allowing chip to kill a player you've eliminated the raw effectiveness of turtle games by still allowing them the perks of a class and yet not hindered an attacker from finding viable options to open them up.

UbiJurassic
08-01-2017, 01:16 AM
There's certainly been a large amount of talk about whether chip damage should be lethal or not. We loving hearing player's thoughts on it and appreciate the feedback on it so far!

Benji28613
08-01-2017, 06:11 AM
No, chip damage should not kill. That will only encourage people to spam instead of trying to read your opponent and get in a clean hit. It will also change the fight from "let see if I can survive with this little health and turn this fight around" to "holysh*t lets see if I can run away from this fight. Oh no it was a PK/Orochi/Shinobi/Berzerker and they killed me even tho I blocked every single attack."

I think that it require more skill to get a clean hit in, than it takes to simply press the attack button and kill the opponent even if they block.

The only way to win at low life will be to get your opponent to OOS and then punish them there, or to simply throw them of a bridge. Attacking in fair fight will be of no use at low health IMO.

Tyrjo
08-01-2017, 07:12 AM
if it cant kill then there is no point to chip damage at all.

its meant to undermine the turlte play. if it wont kill then why should someone stop turling?

Well, lets say its a duel that is tie broken with health %. You still win the round.

Alustar.
08-01-2017, 09:29 AM
Well, lets say its a duel that is tie broken with health %. You still win the round.
No, then it should just go to another round, if you are both left standing.

Vakris_One
08-01-2017, 10:35 AM
if it cant kill then there is no point to chip damage at all.

its meant to undermine the turlte play. if it wont kill then why should someone stop turling?
So they don't lose all their health while being passive. Making chip damage kill reverses the turtle meta way too far and just turns it into an attack spam meta. There needs to be a balance in my opinion, neither turtling nor spamming should have the overwhelming advantage. Chip damage not killing is fine in my opinion. It lets the flow of combat have more depth and not just a single note - attack, attack, attack until dead.

The whole charm of For Honor's fighting system is the constant interplay between offence and defence. The devs just need to make sure they get the scales balanced properly so that neither offence nor defence has the advantage over the other.

nufrancis
08-01-2017, 11:12 AM
Yo Thread starter, why not creating a POLL instead??

Me personally, I'd like for chip damage could kill. In current state, defensive meta is no 2 problem, after connection obviously... he2. Many people complaining on how to encourage players not to defend but attack plus all of you can see the tournament where staring contest is everywhere and warlord spamming his full block stance. Raising chip damage attack and allow it to kill is one of the solution. With this players will take initiative to attack first and defend second. If you are affraid of people spamming, I think this is not scary at all, because as all you know, blocking attack means stopping attack chain, only heavy attack can carry through. For heavy, because its slow you can either parry or even easier to dodge. Only light remains, where can be stopped and very little damage come out of it.

Helnekromancer
08-01-2017, 02:20 PM
You gotta make chip do something, or whats the point in even having Block Damage? If it can't kill why have it in the game in the first place? You gotta give the turtling players something to worry about because frankly you have almost 0 risk and all of the reward for playing like that.

My.Insanity
08-01-2017, 03:06 PM
Chip dmg has to kill... i dont think this is a big question.. if chip dmg dont kill whats the point of it?

for example:

if you have 1HP left.. you can just sit back and block everything... why should i risk a parry with 1 hp? It would be total stupid.. maybe the enemy is fainting and i fall for it.. so im open for 1 hit and im done... but if I keep blocking he cant do sh!t.

As long as chip dmg can kill the match will be interessting.. the enemy will attack more because he wants you dead.. and you need to avoid the hit with doges or parrys (which require skill).. ofc in 4on4 everything is a bit more extrem.. if you are cornerd by 4 people who all spamm heavys to chip you down its bad... but its only bad because you faced 4 enemys alone... and if you are afraid of "light spamming" the only thing i can say is that a light attack deals 3-4 dmg (with the new 18%) so this would be nearly 6-7 light attacks you need to block to die while in the last healthpart ...

Alustar.
08-01-2017, 06:23 PM
Chip dmg has to kill... i dont think this is a big question.. if chip dmg dont kill whats the point of it?

for example:

if you have 1HP left.. you can just sit back and block everything... why should i risk a parry with 1 hp? It would be total stupid.. maybe the enemy is fainting and i fall for it.. so im open for 1 hit and im done... but if I keep blocking he cant do sh!t.

As long as chip dmg can kill the match will be interessting.. the enemy will attack more because he wants you dead.. and you need to avoid the hit with doges or parrys (which require skill).. ofc in 4on4 everything is a bit more extrem.. if you are cornerd by 4 people who all spamm heavys to chip you down its bad... but its only bad because you faced 4 enemys alone... and if you are afraid of "light spamming" the only thing i can say is that a light attack deals 3-4 dmg (with the new 18%) so this would be nearly 6-7 light attacks you need to block to die while in the last healthpart ...

See and that's I think the biggest problem right now is that everything seems to be a balance ignore act from the 1v1 aspect and that negatively affects 4v4 in many aspects. This could be one. I have no problem with the aspect of chip damage kills in a 1v1 setting. Duels I think are where the overly defensive playstyle evolved from. However as I said I don't want to negatively effect 4v4 by addressing and fixing a problem that wasn't that bad there in first place.

Vakris_One
08-02-2017, 12:44 PM
Yo Thread starter, why not creating a POLL instead??

Me personally, I'd like for chip damage could kill. In current state, defensive meta is no 2 problem, after connection obviously... he2. Many people complaining on how to encourage players not to defend but attack plus all of you can see the tournament where staring contest is everywhere and warlord spamming his full block stance.
The tournaments are only a display in safe moves and cheese fests. I wouldn't put much stock in them other than seeing how 0.1% of the playerbase play. I certainly wouldn't balance the game based on such a small minority.



Raising chip damage attack and allow it to kill is one of the solution. With this players will take initiative to attack first and defend second. If you are affraid of people spamming, I think this is not scary at all, because as all you know, blocking attack means stopping attack chain, only heavy attack can carry through. For heavy, because its slow you can either parry or even easier to dodge. Only light remains, where can be stopped and very little damage come out of it.
I think you are being disingenous. As you well know blocking lights still incurs chip damage and if chip damage kills well ... I wonder what's going to happen.

Allowing chip damage to kill goes too far and will create an attack spam meta, which will overwhelmingly favour faster classes like assassins. Secondly, I think everyone who wants chip damage to kill is forgeting the team modes - they are 4 out of the 5 modes in the game after all. Allowing chip damage to kill in an outnumbered situation makes it extremely easy to bulldoze over opponents.

All in all allowing chip damage to kill in any mode pretty much eliminates the chance to make combacks and allows for both cheese players and higher tier players alike to completely steamroll over their opponents. That's just not fun in any video game.

Vakris_One
08-02-2017, 12:52 PM
You gotta make chip do something, or whats the point in even having Block Damage? If it can't kill why have it in the game in the first place? You gotta give the turtling players something to worry about because frankly you have almost 0 risk and all of the reward for playing like that.
Chip damage does do something. It punishes passive blocking and can take the opponent down to half a bar of health. You want chip damage to do all the work for you? If you want to take down your opponent then you will have to get creative rather than attack, attack, attack until dead.

Half a bar/one bar of health is not that difficult to kill if you know how to fake your opponent out or force them to make a mistake. If they beat you with only one bar of health left then quite simply perhaps they deserved to win. They maintained presence of mind.

My.Insanity
08-02-2017, 03:13 PM
In fighting games like Street Fighter / Tekken / etc.. the chip dmg will always kill you.. so why not in For Honor? For F**k Sake im 100% sure chip dmg can already kill people in the live version... but the difference is that the chip dmg atm is so low that you dont rly see it because its rly hard to get someone so low that a blocked attack wont save him. You can try it if you want.

Block dmg / Chip dmg is something each fighting game need... if you get killed by countless light attacks maybe you dont deserve to win at all.. parry them.. punish the attacker.. throw the game.. this is what chip dmg should do... when the enemy sees he could kill you (while in the last 25hp) with a few hits even if you block them he attacks more reckless.. and THIS is the moment to turn the game.

Linnix1
08-02-2017, 05:02 PM
And most fighters have a perfect gaurd that nullifies chip damage. And it's the most important thing to learn how to perfect guard. For Honor doesn't have that so honestly I don't want to see some random peacekeeper flail like a fish out of water. Kill me even though I blocked every one of her attacks

CandleInTheDark
08-02-2017, 05:05 PM
I think you are being disingenous. As you well know blocking lights still incurs chip damage and if chip damage kills well ... I wonder what's going to happen.

This, speaking as a peacekeeper main that can already hear calls to delete her raging across the forums again if chip damage kills. Allowing chip damage to kill would favour the assassins quite heavily.

Vakris_One
08-02-2017, 05:06 PM
In fighting games like Street Fighter / Tekken / etc.. the chip dmg will always kill you.. so why not in For Honor?
Simple. Because this isn't Tekken or Street Fighter. For Honor is more akin to a MOBA than a pure fighting game and 4 out of its 5 game modes are team based where 2v1s, 3v1s and 4v1s, etc can happen.



For F**k Sake im 100% sure chip dmg can already kill people in the live version... but the difference is that the chip dmg atm is so low that you dont rly see it because its rly hard to get someone so low that a blocked attack wont save him. You can try it if you want.
Yes, I've killed people with chip damage in the live game but they always had a microscopic amount of health left at that point. Chip damage in the PTS is increased to something like 18% of the total damage you would do if you landed a clean hit. Couple that with gear stats that increase chip damage on block and I can easily see scenarios where someone can take half a bar of your health on block from just a light attack. I don't think that's going to be healthy for the game if chip damage does all of the work for you.



Block dmg / Chip dmg is something each fighting game need... if you get killed by countless light attacks maybe you dont deserve to win at all.. parry them.. punish the attacker.. throw the game.. this is what chip dmg should do... when the enemy sees he could kill you (while in the last 25hp) with a few hits even if you block them he attacks more reckless.. and THIS is the moment to turn the game.
It's all about how risk free either attack or defence is made when thinking about making these changes. Currently being super passive is risk free while rewarding the turtling player with maximum punish opportunities via parrying. The devs are putting in meaningful chip damage and taking away a lot of the free punishment gained from a successful parry in order to address this so that defence is no longer so risk free while offering massive punishes. If they tip the balance scale too far in favour of attack spamming then attacking will become too risk free - keep in mind that most assassin classes (as well as the Warlord) have lights and zone attacks that are too fast to parry on reaction. Add to that the fact that the devs have to consider the impact on consoles as well as PC

The devs are hoping that by making OOS such a dangerous state to be in that it will make players be more cautious about spamming attacks and I can see the logic in that in combination with the changes to parry, chip damage and revenge. In my opinion they should first release these changes into the live game and then decide whether to allow chip damage to kill based on the data they gather.

Pofigism
08-02-2017, 06:25 PM
Personally, i don't like chip damage at all. Imo it's just a band aid in broken system. High chip damage only worsen things in 1vX situations. As OP said, people still turtling on last 25 HP, so it proves that chip damage cant fix def meta. Being able to kill with chip damage just makes overall system stupid and more broken.
Changing game meta is a huge work for developers. Much bigger than many people think. It can't be solved with some number changes. We don't want defense meta, but we don't want attack spam meta either.

Graci0us
08-02-2017, 07:02 PM
This is a situational answer, really. Duelers will more than likely say yes. While ppl whom mostly play 4v4 will say no. Which ever way the devs choose to go on this, will make one of the game modes a less fun. One thing to consider. On the ptr, with shuggy for example, if you equiped the correct feat, and aquired the correct stats on your gear, you could do just under a whole bar of chip. Most ppl i fought on ptr did not have 144 chars and, i doubt that even the ones with 144 even bothered to change gear. Imagine how it will be when ppl do optimize for it. That's only 18%, too. Some ppl are asking for 30%.

UbiNoty
08-03-2017, 12:22 AM
Thank you all, really, for the great and constructive discussion. I love reading threads like these:D And like UbiJurassic mentioned, we're aware there's a ton of debate surrounding chip damage and what it can mean for different heroes, modes, situations, etc - so we'll be sure to keep all these in mind when we go about tweaking things and making changes.