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View Full Version : Parry System Reworked (A better parry system that promotes skill and dont reduce it)



AzureSky.
07-30-2017, 08:45 PM
Hello this is supposed to be a long post (for explaining it) but i will try to keep it short so the devs can read it fast. (also my english is not that good but i think you can understand it)

1) {PROBLEM WITH PBT PARRY CHANGES}

The current parry changes demote skill and promote attack spamming, why? because you erased different route of actions after a succesfull parry, you could do different actions based in if it was a light or heavy parry (wall near, more stamina damage but less damage, etc) also the characters are balanced based on the different frame advantages after parry.

2) {SPEED PROBLEMS WITH LIVE VERSION PARRY SYSTEM}

Also theres some problems with the pre changes parry system, lights can be of different speeds, a slow and easy to parry orochi side light, shugoki or raider side attacks or fast 500 ms top warden, orochi top, warlord side attacks (the most used moves in tournaments and by players since not everyone can parry them on reaction, just predict them) this produced a problem since some attacks were a really bad choice (if you used them) since the enemy could parry them with no problem and in the other side some attacks were really safe to use in the defensive meta (500 ms or lower lights)

3) {NEW PARRY SYSTEM}

The new parry system i propose is not based in attack type (heavy or light) instead is based on the speed of the attacks, the frame advantage after a parry is based on the speed of the attack that you parryed, the medium point i propose is 500 ms attacks, that attacks gives the player that parryed them the current light frame advantage after a parry, but the stamina drain is lower than current live version parry system, then the function decreases the frame advantage in a exponential way (so 600ms attacks dont give you the same light parry frame advantage and also cant be guard broken after it, 500 ms or lower can) this increases until reaching the slowest attack cap, kensei zone attack, if you parry this attack you make a lot of stamina damage (a little more than PBT heavy parry, so its a nerf overall to defensive play, since most attack parrys are not that slow and will not damage that much stamina) but you cant do any follow up action (in the slowest attacks cases), the recover time of the parry action is the same recover time of kensei, this happens with most of the slowest heavys (shugoki charged heavy for example) you can deal a lot of stamina damage (and make them go out of stamina state) this way you dont get assured damage after a parry but you are betting for a long time damage in the out of stamina state (or going ham without thinking that the other player is going to attack since he have little to no stamina)

This also happens in another exponential function in the other way, Parry stamina damage, parrying a very fast light (lets say peacekeeper first zone attack, 400 ms speed) gives a lot of frame advantage (a little more than current light parry, lets say you could do a warden or raider top heavy after you parryed this attack, otherwise its not possible with most of the attacks) but the parry stamina damage would be near to 0, almost no stamina damage, so you get assured damage but the other player can retaliate with little to no stamina damage, this happens at the other way with slower attacks, more stamina damage but little frame advantage.


To explain it easy for people that dont understand it (possible end system):
400 ms attacks (highest frame advantage, you could do a shugoki uncharged heavy, warden top heavy or raider top heavy after this parry, but you deal no
damage to the stamina of the other player)
500 ms attacks (you get the current light parry advantage, but the stamina damage is reduced a little)
600 ms - 700 ms attacks (you get only a light after them, you cant guard break the other player after this parrys, the stamina damage is a little higher than
current attacks of this speed, increased in the 700ms case)
700+ attacks (follow the same system and in some cases you can only with them with 500 ms lights but not with 600ms or more attacks, the stamina
damage is higher)

In other words this system make A LOT of current attacks viable since you get advantages that you didnt have in the previous (Live version) or current (PBT) parry systems, for example orochi side lights or heavys will become viable and you can use them to bait attacks that cant hit (based on the frame recovery) after the parry, this adds A LOT of game knowledge based on the matchups and different attacks, the game top ceiling will increase a lot and the defensive meta will end (since you need to know EVERY character attack speed and proper action after it) so it becomes a skillfull game rather than doing the same optimall things with each character.


4) {CHAINING ATTACKS}


This is something that needs to be changed along with this parry changes to allow the game to get into near tekken 7 skill system (of actions) the current chains are just faster attacks with the same timing so they are heavily influenced by the defensive meta, since they are very easy to parry, to fix this i suggest adding more chains + changing the current ones, they should change into attacks with wide differences in speed and damage and mix up them (you can do the initial part of a chain and then go into another one, to bait enemys) as i said before the current chains are just attacks that are faster in speed and have nearly the same damage as the no chain counterpart, they should be animation exclusive moves (also you can add side or top only moves in different characters) that have a wider different in speed and damage, you could add a fast chain attack to shugoki that deals low damage but its good for a (get out of my face!) move, or add a really slow attack but with long reach on nobushi, this in conjuntion with the parry changes will make them viable since you trade of frame advantage for stamina damage, so the players can chose the best action to take. Also this will buff berserker and orochi since in berseker case, he could cancel any of this mixups into another attack.



5) {CONCLUSION}


All this changes combined will evolve the game fight system, by adding more options for each character and balancing the parry advantages based on speed, this can give the players a reward based on the effort of the action (since parrying unpredictable faster attacks is not really a easy thing to do) at the same times this makes slower attacks a fair choice since you dont get a lot of punish for a parry (yes in the for of stamina damage) and promote stamina management.

UbiNoty
07-30-2017, 11:25 PM
Thank you for taking the time to leave your ideas for a different kind of parry rework.
I do like your feedback regarding the lack of post-parry options in the new PT and I think you bring up some neat ideas so I'll pass it along and it'll be good for them to see :)

AzureSky.
07-31-2017, 12:29 AM
Thank you for taking the time to leave your ideas for a different kind of parry rework.
I do like your feedback regarding the lack of post-parry options in the new PT and I think you bring up some neat ideas so I'll pass it along and it'll be good for them to see :)

Thanks, the most important part is that parry after effects are based on the speed of the parryed attack and the change of chained attacks (combos), you pass the ideas in a full format or just a resume? (if its the full post, thats awesome)

Maaci
07-31-2017, 01:20 AM
I like your ideas. But max damage after a parry should be a light attack. Free guardbreak or heavy isnt fun, it interrupts combat to much while promotes parry-play.
Different stamina vs different speed is nice thing.

Love your tekken combo suggestion. Really think for honor could become great with that.

SikanderAzam
07-31-2017, 01:38 AM
also the characters are IMbalanced based on the different frame advantages after parry..

Fixed. But good post, I would support this type of system.

kweassa1
07-31-2017, 02:04 AM
I don't see a problem with "attack spamming", so to speak... since the current "defensive meta" is basically -- in a sense -- "block spamming" and "parry spamming".

While I certainly do understand where your suggestions are coming from, I still strongly disagree.

Like Maaci adequately mentioned before me, anything stronger than a guaranteed light attack simply defeats the purpose of the meta-fix at its very heart, because once anything stronger is guaranteed, it INSTANTLY becomes a better option than to attack first -- which, the end result is the exact same thing as we currently have, because when you are "skilled" and objectively can parry better than the opponent, then why risk attacking at all? Parries will still give you enough damage to win the game without even making a single move against your enemy.


"Skill" is a means to an end, and we usually tend to think it is better to "promote skill" in a game because we assume that would give us differing reactions between people and a variety of situations to meet upon combat. Unfortunately, the two most defining traits of "skill" as of current in FH, is how well you could parry lights, and how well you could manage the heavy-feint game.

In other words, the entire "defense meta" is a result of what "high level of skills" brings upon the game. When we differentiate the results/profits to be gained according to skill level(= reaction and accuracy to parry fast attacks and gain higher rewards) the end result is what we already have.

UbiNoty
07-31-2017, 02:27 AM
Thanks, the most important part is that parry after effects are based on the speed of the parryed attack and the change of chained attacks (combos), you pass the ideas in a full format or just a resume? (if its the full post, thats awesome)

I've brought it up as an idea for parry changes based on attack speed and included a link to your write-up. We try to be be concise in giving the devs a quick summary and then they will be able to see your full post if they're interested in seeing more - that way nothing gets lost in translation or misrepresented.

AzureSky.
07-31-2017, 03:40 PM
I don't see a problem with "attack spamming", so to speak... since the current "defensive meta" is basically -- in a sense -- "block spamming" and "parry spamming".

While I certainly do understand where your suggestions are coming from, I still strongly disagree.

Like Maaci adequately mentioned before me, anything stronger than a guaranteed light attack simply defeats the purpose of the meta-fix at its very heart, because once anything stronger is guaranteed, it INSTANTLY becomes a better option than to attack first -- which, the end result is the exact same thing as we currently have, because when you are "skilled" and objectively can parry better than the opponent, then why risk attacking at all? Parries will still give you enough damage to win the game without even making a single move against your enemy.


"Skill" is a means to an end, and we usually tend to think it is better to "promote skill" in a game because we assume that would give us differing reactions between people and a variety of situations to meet upon combat. Unfortunately, the two most defining traits of "skill" as of current in FH, is how well you could parry lights, and how well you could manage the heavy-feint game.

In other words, the entire "defense meta" is a result of what "high level of skills" brings upon the game. When we differentiate the results/profits to be gained according to skill level(= reaction and accuracy to parry fast attacks and gain higher rewards) the end result is what we already have.

Yeah i know that problem, thats why parry rewards are based on speed :). i play on high elo and not everyone parry 500ms attacks (they are the most used attacks because they are safe) and dont even talk about 400 ms attacks :P, you can predict them but not parry them, this in conjuntion with the chained attacks changes will erase the defensive meta.

tuknurjaw
07-31-2017, 03:53 PM
the only reason I say the blocking system is trash because I see so many people sit there in guard mode and spin the right stick around in circles for a promised attack block or parry. how about finding a way to void rolling the block stick. that makes blocking require no skill or reflex at all. that's actually an exploit,