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View Full Version : Shonobi buff ?



fTy7ZBO2
07-28-2017, 04:54 PM
Shinobi is relly low tier now.....you guys nerfd hem wayyyyyyyyyyy to much he is kinda ok in 1 v 1 but in 4 v 4 he litterly have 0 chances at winning 2 v 1 he has low hp...all his moves ir way to easy to counter and most people dont even bother with that they just trade with me since they know il die in 2-3 hits....

He needs more hp and that is a fact....


the only way to play hem now is to run afther people and gank from range...when people dont expect it and that is no fun...

We.the.North
07-29-2017, 12:51 AM
Shinobi suffers the same problem as the Valkyrie. They both do decent damage over a long period of time through combo of attacks. In 1v1, this is fine ... but in 4v4, your combo constantly get interrupted and your damage becomes crap.

UbiNoty
07-29-2017, 01:09 AM
I can bring it up to the team to discuss. We are aware that he's not as great in 4v4s as in 1v1s, but keep in mind we have to consider all modes when we go about balancing.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 01:18 AM
I've never had a problem with the shinobi health pool, currently rep two, planning on taking him wherever legendary gear is (he's just in a queue with other characters I want to do that with bless him).

Personally, I have notched up 10-0 in dominion, and yes a good few of those were long range attacks when they were already against someone else, it is a team game and his whole motif is about working from the shadows, if you have a problem with playing team games as a team game and want to hold points against three people, yes you are going to struggle, but I would also argue that you are not using him right. Personally I also quite like that the low health pool forces me to make smarter decisions because I can't afford to make bad ones. I play him as an assassin but then most of the characters I play are assassins or assassin hybrids (warden excepting) it is the style I like to play and while people have different definitions of fun, I enjoy using him.

SerArthur-Dayne
07-29-2017, 02:16 AM
I agree, I've used a number of characters and used to use shinobi until I just gave up with him.

To be honest his moveset isn't really better than any of the roster, his attacks aren't overly strong, deflect is so tricky to pull off for such a tiny amount of damage (don't even bother coming at me with: "yeah but best deflect in the game") it's about as useless as it gets, and with the HP of a beetle, it's just dumb to incorporate it as a tool other than cool factor.

I don't find him to be any better in 1v1 than any of the other heroes, maybe a bit worse. Fairly pointless sprint and it's almost useless, give me another attack instead of sprint to arrive at a cap point 0.7 seconds before the team. Not really more mobile either as you have to dodge an attack the exact same as any of the other assasins, except! Shinobi is one of the only ones without a dodge attack!!! Cmon.

Kick is very predictable, probably one of the most telegraphed things in the game. And if used on reaction from a dodge, your basically giving away gb's to your enemy. If they feint heavies to get you to dodge kick, they can afford to just trade you to death provided they only get 50% right. Again, other assasins have dodge attacks to circumvent this problem.

His zone attack is basically a free party with that last hit.

For some reason he does not have invincibility frames while in the rolling/"slinging" animation, and especially the backflip animation.

So terrible in 1v2 it actually becomes unfun pretty quickly.

Sacrifice having a decent hero in almost every single regard just for the now fairly useless range attacks unless ganking.

Problem I see with this char is the devs are going to look at k/d and reach the conclusion that he is fine, when In reality: you are able to get a single hit into most ganks, even if you basically barely killed anyone or ran away most of the match helping no one. But those few hits into multiple heroes puts you at the top of the scoreboard as they all count as kills. I hope they consider this, as it's my opinion that shinobi is probably the worst hero in the game currently.

Fun hero to muck around with, and the art team did an excellent job, but needs some love after getting nerfed into the dirt ( although I agree the 50:50 he had needed to be removed)

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 02:25 AM
I agree, I've used a number of characters and used to use shinobi until I just gave up with him.

To be honest his moveset isn't really better than any of the roster, his attacks aren't overly strong, deflect is so tricky to pull off for such a tiny amount of damage (don't even bother coming at me with: "yeah but best deflect in the game") it's about as useless as it gets, and with the HP of a beetle, it's just dumb to incorporate it as a tool other than cool factor.

I don't find him to be any better in 1v1 than any of the other heroes, maybe a bit worse. Fairly pointless sprint and it's almost useless, give me another attack instead of sprint to arrive at a cap point 0.7 seconds before the team. Not really more mobile either as you have to dodge an attack the exact same as any of the other assasins, except! Shinobi is one of the only ones without a dodge attack!!! Cmon.

Kick is very predictable, probably one of the most telegraphed things in the game. And if used on reaction from a dodge, your basically giving away gb's to your enemy. If they feint heavies to get you to dodge kick, they can afford to just trade you to death provided they only get 50% right. Again, other assasins have dodge attacks to circumvent this problem.

His zone attack is basically a free party with that last hit.

For some reason he does not have invincibility frames while in the rolling/"slinging" animation, and especially the backflip animation.

So terrible in 1v2 it actually becomes unfun pretty quickly.

Sacrifice having a decent hero in almost every single regard just for the now fairly useless range attacks unless ganking.

Problem I see with this char is the devs are going to look at k/d and reach the conclusion that he is fine, when In reality: you are able to get a single hit into most ganks, even if you basically barely killed anyone or ran away most of the match helping no one. But those few hits into multiple heroes puts you at the top of the scoreboard as they all count as kills. I hope they consider this, as it's my opinion that shinobi is probably the worst hero in the game currently.

Fun hero to muck around with, and the art team did an excellent job, but needs some love after getting nerfed into the dirt ( although I agree the 50:50 he had needed to be removed)

But again, as I said above, if you're getting into the situation where you are 1vx, that's on you.Shinobi gets a lot of his kills from the edge of battles and that is fine with me, that is using an assassin with range as an assassin with range. As for not having a dodge chain, that is ridiculous, he can do any of his other moves at the end of his double dodge so you can come out with something quick, a heavy or that kick. I also find his deflect quite easy to pull off but I have been doing that with peacekeeper from day one.

If people want to go into 4v4 and have 'honourable' 1v1 fights, then no he isn't the character for you, sorry but he doesn't fit that play style, but that doesn't mean that he is any less viable through assisting teammates with his kick knocking people out of charges and infinite loops or knocking an opponent off from range. As I said in this and the other post, it isn't that shinobi is bad at 4v4, it is that people are trying to force a playstyle on him that he isn't built for. For me, the fact that he can knock off a few kills from range is a feature, not a bug, and when used that way he is a lethal hero.

Ultimately this is what I was worried about from day one, that people would take a character with an intricate moveset and a different style, try to play him in a way he shouldn't be played, then go calling for buffs because they can't use him properly, I actually called this before release with orochi mains getting their hands on him. Get off your honour must not gank kick and use an assassin as an assassin, in any other game with honour nowhere near the title that would be considered good play.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 02:36 AM
I agree, I've used a number of characters and used to use shinobi until I just gave up with him.

To be honest his moveset isn't really better than any of the roster, his attacks aren't overly strong, deflect is so tricky to pull off for such a tiny amount of damage (don't even bother coming at me with: "yeah but best deflect in the game") it's about as useless as it gets, and with the HP of a beetle, it's just dumb to incorporate it as a tool other than cool factor.

I don't find him to be any better in 1v1 than any of the other heroes, maybe a bit worse. Fairly pointless sprint and it's almost useless, give me another attack instead of sprint to arrive at a cap point 0.7 seconds before the team. Not really more mobile either as you have to dodge an attack the exact same as any of the other assasins, except! Shinobi is one of the only ones without a dodge attack!!! Cmon.

Kick is very predictable, probably one of the most telegraphed things in the game. And if used on reaction from a dodge, your basically giving away gb's to your enemy. If they feint heavies to get you to dodge kick, they can afford to just trade you to death provided they only get 50% right. Again, other assasins have dodge attacks to circumvent this problem.

His zone attack is basically a free party with that last hit.

For some reason he does not have invincibility frames while in the rolling/"slinging" animation, and especially the backflip animation.

So terrible in 1v2 it actually becomes unfun pretty quickly.

Sacrifice having a decent hero in almost every single regard just for the now fairly useless range attacks unless ganking.

Problem I see with this char is the devs are going to look at k/d and reach the conclusion that he is fine, when In reality: you are able to get a single hit into most ganks, even if you basically barely killed anyone or ran away most of the match helping no one. But those few hits into multiple heroes puts you at the top of the scoreboard as they all count as kills. I hope they consider this, as it's my opinion that shinobi is probably the worst hero in the game currently.

Fun hero to muck around with, and the art team did an excellent job, but needs some love after getting nerfed into the dirt ( although I agree the 50:50 he had needed to be removed)

How is 50 damage tiny for a deflect? It's really not as difficult as you are making it, it's just as simple as a parry.

im not sure why you think a sprint attack that is a 50/50 is useless but okay I guess that's subjective.

His dodge attack is his kick, that's far better than an attack that can be parried and it's also a lot faster, 500ms for front kick and 600 ms for side. It's also relatively safe on whiff and can't be punished by half the cast.

If you think the kick is predicatable than you should be using it as a counter attack, plus his 50/50 is still there if you use his ranged gb. It comes out instantly. You should be spacing out your dodges so you aren't within gb range so you aren't handing them free gbs. His kick has tremandous range.

Then don't do his zone attack, having useless attacks don't diminish the good ones he does have.

His backflip already can't be punished by half the cast reliable, he doesn't need it to be 100% safe.

I agree he's pretty bad in 1v2 situations but that's what's great about him having his super sprint, he can avoid those most of the time.

Range attacks work well especially the gb during enemies recovery frames since it's damn near instant.

Sykoink
07-29-2017, 02:39 AM
Shinobi is relly low tier now.....you guys nerfd hem wayyyyyyyyyyy to much he is kinda ok in 1 v 1 but in 4 v 4 he litterly have 0 chances at winning 2 v 1 he has low hp...all his moves ir way to easy to counter and most people dont even bother with that they just trade with me since they know il die in 2-3 hits....

He needs more hp and that is a fact....


the only way to play hem now is to run afther people and gank from range...when people dont expect it and that is no fun...

I play with a lot of characters and i personally think the Shinobi is one of the strongest in 4v4. I'm rep 5 with Shinobi and i'm absolutely dominating in dominion. Shinobi has so many mix ups that you can really mess with peoples minds. The only thing you have to make sure of is not to recklessly jump into battles because he/she really does have a small health pool. Go in and out and frustrate your opponent if he's good too. If the opponent is not that good at parrying everything then you can put a lot of pressure on him. Also don't use the range wind up attacks too much, they leave you toovulnerable when you get parried and fall to the ground.

Another thing i do is have patience, read your opponent, see what his go to move is and then deflect it for the bleed effect, it will mess with peoples head and then put pressure with some light attacks and create some space between you and your opponent again. A really easy deflect for example is against a Valkyrie and Peacekeeper because a lot of people use the jumping attack towards you, just wait for it and deflect. I noticed the window of the deflect with the Shinobi is more forgiving compared to other characters who have deflect. Which is understandable because its a high risk move and the Shinobi's health pool is lower than everybody else's.

Once you get the hang of the Shinobi's do's and don'ts, he/she is really powerful. I see less and less Shinobi's in 4v4 compared to when the kick wasn't nerfed and the majority i encounter are way to reckless with the character.

I personally think the Shinobi is in a very good place right now. Not too good and not too bad.


deflect is so tricky to pull off for such a tiny amount of damage (don't even bother coming at me with: "yeah but best deflect in the game") it's about as useless as it gets, and with the HP of a beetle, it's just dumb to incorporate it as a tool other than cool factor.

See, i strongly disagree with you there. Sure the deflect is tricky unless you practiced it and you know when to use it when people are careless and predictable with their attacks. For me, the deflect is very important in fights and far from useless.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 03:04 AM
It gets better in 4v4 when you consider he has stealth. I just came across a centurion killing soldiers, he must not have seen me on the screen because he turns away from me, right until the point he gets guard break, sickle rain and I backflip before finishing him with a heavy. That kind of hit and run style is the best thing about playing an assassin. And as I said above in any other game that would be considered good assassin play. And yes I am a dirty dishonourable savage with not a fair bone in my body when it comes to fights, I play assassins,not just in For Honor but any fighting or roleplay game on computer or around a table I can get them, that is our shtick, especially in a fight for our lives, I'd rather the other one be dead, not me.

Sykoink
07-29-2017, 03:41 AM
It gets better in 4v4 when you consider he has stealth. I just came across a centurion killing soldiers, he must not have seen me on the screen because he turns away from me, right until the point he gets guard break, sickle rain and I backflip before finishing him with a heavy. That kind of hit and run style is the best thing about playing an assassin. And as I said above in any other game that would be considered good assassin play. And yes I am a dirty dishonourable savage with not a fair bone in my body when it comes to fights, I play assassins,not just in For Honor but any fighting or roleplay game on computer or around a table I can get them, that is our shtick, especially in a fight for our lives, I'd rather the other one be dead, not me.

Ah yes i 100% agree, i'm kind of the same. Also have you ever caught people off guard while they were standing at an edge staring down looking over the battlefield or waiting for someone to pass to jump on them and they don't see you coming in time and before they noticed it they are already on their way down to the pavement. Especially on the Temple Garden map on the top control zone. They watch the radar in the corner of their eye but forget the assassins lurking in stealth :o

SerArthur-Dayne
07-29-2017, 04:22 AM
CandleInTheDark, please stop telling me how to play this class (or that I'm playing it wrong) and talking down to me in both threads, Im rep 10 with it with triple your K/D. I know how to play it, I'm saying he is a good noob stomper but has a low skill ceiling.

For the reasons I listed, I feel this class is weak and lacking compared to others. Was able to pick up PK and instantly double my K:D after one rep.

I'm not going to tell you how your "playing wrong", I'd rather we just stick to the talking points.

@Antonioj26

The kick isn't good when used as a reactionary dodge, because people feint all the time into a followup attack or gb, both of these will catch your kick, whereas they wouldn't catch a dodge attack from other assasins. Its just super risky atm, and I'm not sure if it's all that worth it unless in a gank, or the odd dash back- to forward to kick the very odd time.

Again the backflip is useless in a 1v2 (arguably when you actually need the extra mobility) because with attack tracking the way it is, it's like walking backwards with no guard whatsoever for like a full second and a half, it is all but useless without invincibility frames in this scenario.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 04:27 AM
Ah yes i 100% agree, i'm kind of the same. Also have you ever caught people off guard while they were standing at an edge staring down looking over the battlefield or waiting for someone to pass to jump on them and they don't see you coming in time and before they noticed it they are already on their way down to the pavement. Especially on the Temple Garden map on the top control zone. They watch the radar in the corner of their eye but forget the assassins lurking in stealth :o

Dangit, tried to edit on my phone and it deleted instead.

Yeah I have done exactly that, people tend to forget that their minimap doesn't always work with assassins around, always sweet when that happens.

This is something that really grates at me. I don't want the shinobi watered down to balance a higher health pool because the honour crowd don't consider what he does best as 'proper kills'. Something I did forget to mention, hence having to type this all out again :rolleyes: is that his feint game is amazing. i was forced to use it when a raider blocked and dodged everything last round of a duel, he had no answer to feinted side heavy, top heavy which I scored an execute off.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 04:29 AM
CandleInTheDark, please stop telling me how to play this class (or that I'm playing it wrong) and talking down to me in both threads, Im rep 10 with it with triple your K/D. I know how to play it, I'm saying he is a good noob stomper but has a low skill ceiling.

For the reasons I listed, I feel this class is weak and lacking compared to others. Was able to pick up PK and instantly double my K:D after one rep.

I'm not going to tell you how your "playing wrong", I'd rather we just stick to the talking points.

@Antonioj26

The kick isn't good when used as a reactionary dodge, because people feint all the time into a followup attack or gb, both of these will catch your kick, whereas they wouldn't catch a dodge attack from other assasins. Its just super risky atm, and I'm not sure if it's all that worth it unless in a gank, or the odd dash back- to forward to kick the very odd time.

Again the backflip is useless in a 1v2 (arguably when you actually need the extra mobility) because with attack tracking the way it is, it's like walking backwards with no guard whatsoever for like a full second and a half, it is all but useless without invincibility frames in this scenario.

Dodge backwards and they won't catch you either if you are spacing them. The argument you just gave isn't even a good one because they can do the same for everyone who has a dodge attack, on top of that they can parry. All the dodge attack aside from pk is a light to boot so you have potential to take huge damage. Also if you see that they feinted to bait than just don't do the kick. you can parry/light attack yourself followup from the double dash.

So because it doesn't work in a 1v2 situation than we should just buff it to overpowered levels past the point of absurdity? How will this work in a 1v1 scenario? Also if you think it's useless in this scenario than stop using it in that scenario. Just walk backwards and block if that's your hang up.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 04:51 AM
CandleInTheDark, please stop telling me how to play this class (or that I'm playing it wrong) and talking down to me in both threads, Im rep 10 with it with triple your K/D. I know how to play it, I'm saying he is a good noob stomper but has a low skill ceiling.

For the reasons I listed, I feel this class is weak and lacking compared to others. Was able to pick up PK and instantly double my K:D after one rep.

I'm not going to tell you how your "playing wrong", I'd rather we just stick to the talking points.

Riiiiiight because elitist posturing followed by a veiled stab at the person you disagree with because they main a character some consider op is a perfect way to validate yourself :rolleyes: Personally I find it hilarious you felt the need to look that up to give your point any merit. Hey I'm just saying that maybe people shouldn't complain when they struggle to use an assassin as one would a heavy instead of as an assassin, but hey, that's your hang up.

SerArthur-Dayne
07-29-2017, 05:41 AM
Dude, I gave my opinion in this thread and another similar one, on why I feel the character is weak, and why I reached that conclusion. You resorted to "well maybe you should learn how to play" or "your playing it wrong, if only you played more like me" instead of dicussing the points/ disagreeing with them.

I felt what you (and some others) are arguing for to be flat out wrong, and generally bad tactics. So I looked up your stats to form a defence seen as we're resorting to "you don't play the class right".

Nothing "veiled" about my jab back at you. You insinuated (and still are) that I don't have a grasp on playing this class, and that's why your opinion is better than mine.

I generally think your one of the few people that sticks to the points in this forum, without resorting to ad hominems, just not today.

@Antonioj26

True, but with the lag, often you get gb from 6 meters away and just go wtf!? Spacing in this game, at least from my point of view is a coin toss. Also, with dodge attacks you can't be gb, only parried, and they also have to actually land that parry too. With the dodge kick, you can be gb every time without the same level of timing required as needed with a parry.

As for the backflip I-frames why are we just assuming it would be "overpowered past the level of absurdity". Didn't you say earlier that "His backflip already can't be punished by half the cast reliably" which I would agree with, in 1v1 you pretty much 99.9% never get hit during a backflip. So if they gave it I-frames it would have basically zero affect in a 1v1, but would give him some agility and tools to help with a gank squad. I don't know if it would make him OP in a gank, I think that would be an almighty leap from where he is currently at, but I wouldn't mind trying it in the pts to see if it's a good/ bad idea. Cheers.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 06:13 AM
Dude, I gave my opinion in this thread and another similar one, on why I feel the character is weak, and why I reached that conclusion. You resorted to "well maybe you should learn how to play" or "your playing it wrong, if only you played more like me" instead of dicussing the points/ disagreeing with them.

I felt what you (and some others) are arguing for to be flat out wrong, and generally bad tactics. So I looked up your stats to form a defence seen as we're resorting to "you don't play the class right".

Nothing "veiled" about my jab back at you. You insinuated (and still are) that I don't have a grasp on playing this class, and that's why your opinion is better than mine.

I generally think your one of the few people that sticks to the points in this forum, without resorting to ad hominems, just not today.

@Antonioj26

True, but with the lag, often you get gb from 6 meters away and just go wtf!? Spacing in this game, at least from my point of view is a coin toss. Also, with dodge attacks you can't be gb, only parried, and they also have to actually land that parry too. With the dodge kick, you can be gb every time without the same level of timing required as needed with a parry.

As for the backflip I-frames why are we just assuming it would be "overpowered past the level of absurdity". Didn't you say earlier that "His backflip already can't be punished by half the cast reliably" which I would agree with, in 1v1 you pretty much 99.9% never get hit during a backflip. So if they gave it I-frames it would have basically zero affect in a 1v1, but would give him some agility and tools to help with a gank squad. I don't know if it would make him OP in a gank, I think that would be an almighty leap from where he is currently at, but I wouldn't mind trying it in the pts to see if it's a good/ bad idea. Cheers.

It really doesn't happen that often that you are gbed from Kick range, the startup frames of the kick will cancel out the gb anyway.
you can't be parried when you kick and you also can't be gb'd so still not understanding how this is worse than a dodge attack. It's also a much smaller punish, only enough to get a light off. Parrying dash attacks are as easy as it gets for parrying in this game. They are all either 500-600ms the same as shinobis kick so if you think your opponent will have no trouble punishing the kick than your dash attack will also be punished. The only difference is your going to take a heavy to the face instead of just a light and most of your stamina is going to be gone.

Half the cast can't punish but with I frames zero percent will be able to punish, it doesn't need to be made that safe. We've already seen what he was like prenerf with how safe he was and that's still largely intact, he just can't only rely on the kick to backflip to safety on whiff every single time.

I really don't get what more tools he needs to avoid a gank, he already can quad dash away from groups and just super sprint out of there.

Jlloyd73
07-29-2017, 06:22 AM
In all honesty, I understand both sides of this arguement but honestly shinobi does need a buff.

The kick: The kick is by far the most useless thing in his set actually, its way too slow and telegraphed, ive literally watched dozens of shinobis and even myself, as we get that perfect kick into motion just to watch a character with a side dash attack, just slices us to death.

The double dash: it literally is just a gimmick now, you dont really gain that much distance from the double dash, its honestly just for mind games as some have already posted, it doesn't pull you far enough to really get around your opponent and the fact that you dont have an attack to use with the double dash makes it all the more less reliable.

When i say dash attack i dont mean pressing heavy out of the dash or the kick, i mean how kensei, zerk, orochi, and valk all have dash attacks, attacks that still reside in the dashing animation.

Heres what would make shinobi stronger in my opinion:
A bit more health, not saying give him a crap ton just maybe another bracket of health, three orochi dash attacks shouldnt mean immediate death for me, and you "Professional" shinobis need to understand one thing. People shouldnt have to play with the mindset of a supercomputer to have fun with the character. Raiders can just mindlessly tear through 4v4 with only heavy attacks and have the time of their lives. Go try and watch some shinobis try to tear through a 4v4, its filled with nothing but sighs and miscalculations. Shinobi was fun when it came out because he had little invinc frames in the kick that even if it missed you still werent rocketed from a light kensei attack.

Give him a bit more health
Add a dashattack to his double dash, not saying orochi status range, just saying something to go alongside the dash frames.
Make his heavy attacks a BIT faster not like .20% faster.
Give him some type of super armor on the kick not enough to deflect the damage a ton.
increase his dash range atleast, or make the back flip animation a bit faster.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 06:43 AM
In all honesty, I understand both sides of this arguement but honestly shinobi does need a buff.

The kick: The kick is by far the most useless thing in his set actually, its way too slow and telegraphed, ive literally watched dozens of shinobis and even myself, as we get that perfect kick into motion just to watch a character with a side dash attack, just slices us to death.

The double dash: it literally is just a gimmick now, you dont really gain that much distance from the double dash, its honestly just for mind games as some have already posted, it doesn't pull you far enough to really get around your opponent and the fact that you dont have an attack to use with the double dash makes it all the more less reliable.

When i say dash attack i dont mean pressing heavy out of the dash or the kick, i mean how kensei, zerk, orochi, and valk all have dash attacks, attacks that still reside in the dashing animation.

Heres what would make shinobi stronger in my opinion:
A bit more health, not saying give him a crap ton just maybe another bracket of health, three orochi dash attacks shouldnt mean immediate death for me, and you "Professional" shinobis need to understand one thing. People shouldnt have to play with the mindset of a supercomputer to have fun with the character. Raiders can just mindlessly tear through 4v4 with only heavy attacks and have the time of their lives. Go try and watch some shinobis try to tear through a 4v4, its filled with nothing but sighs and miscalculations. Shinobi was fun when it came out because he had little invinc frames in the kick that even if it missed you still werent rocketed from a light kensei attack.

Give him a bit more health
Add a dashattack to his double dash, not saying orochi status range, just saying something to go alongside the dash frames.
Make his heavy attacks a BIT faster not like .20% faster.
Give him some type of super armor on the kick not enough to deflect the damage a ton.
increase his dash range atleast, or make the back flip animation a bit faster.

I'm sorry but how is a 500ms unblockable with hyper armor and a guaranteed heavy useless? Not to mention the mixup properties of being able to do ranged gb or light attack out of the dodge. If you are getting dodge attacked than bait it out and parry and trust me they'll think twice about doing that since that's 50 of their health gone.

Your attack for the double dash is the kick, which again is only 500ms if you do it from the front and guarantees 25 damage. This is far better than a 17 damage light dash attack that's 600ms which brings me to the quote "three Orochi dash attacks shouldn't mean immediate death." It doesn't, it's only 17 damage so you need to be hit with it 6 times, that's 6 opportunities to get a light parry. If you parry 50% of the time then that roach is dead and you still have a bar and half.

That's what the character is, he is high risk and high reward. You sacrifice health and the ability to play mindlessly for mobility, speed, and high damage. You can't have it all. He already has super armor on his kick and he already has the best dash range in the game. Backflip already can't be punished by half the cast, doesn't really need to be buffed.

Jlloyd73
07-29-2017, 07:34 AM
I'm sorry but how is a 500ms unblockable with hyper armor and a guaranteed heavy useless? Not to mention the mixup properties of being able to do ranged gb or light attack out of the dodge. If you are getting dodge attacked than bait it out and parry and trust me they'll think twice about doing that since that's 50 of their health gone.

Your attack for the double dash is the kick, which again is only 500ms if you do it from the front and guarantees 25 damage. This is far better than a 17 damage light dash attack that's 600ms which brings me to the quote "three Orochi dash attacks shouldn't mean immediate death." It doesn't, it's only 17 damage so you need to be hit with it 6 times, that's 6 opportunities to get a light parry. If you parry 50% of the time then that roach is dead and you still have a bar and half.

That's what the character is, he is high risk and high reward. You sacrifice health and the ability to play mindlessly for mobility, speed, and high damage. You can't have it all. He already has super armor on his kick and he already has the best dash range in the game. Backflip already can't be punished by half the cast, doesn't really need to be buffed.

See thats the thing, you don't see it as what you are seeing in the game
For instance you have all these statistics and number crunches and such 500ms 700ms 600ms blah blah. Screw all that, im telling it to you from the perspective of in the game. Not your numbers that were posted on some reddit post or on the patch notes. Theres a difference between reading about it and actually seeing it. On PC light parries just fly to you guys sure, but as a console player the parrying isnt so much just like pc players switch guards faster than console players with the controller. Im telling it like it is, and that gauranteed heavy attack is a load of crap.

I can bet you right here right now that I am not the only shinobi player who has landed a solid kick on an opponent and thrown out a heavy just to watch them block it or parry it at the last unbelievable second and I sat there saying "That makes no sense".

The kick is too telegraphed, simple as that and if you want to prove it to me dont provide me with your crappy numbers show me some visuals. Show me some clips of you playing shinobi and you landed 10 consecutive kicks during a match, 10 out of 10 attempts, You cant, you wont. Unless you are playing with some bots.

Tired of all these numbers and patch statistics being the only thing people can rely on in these forums as arguement. Players are stating what they are seeing as they play, Ive versed many shinobi and ive sat there and watched them do the kick and ive easy had time to say "here comes the kick" and dodge it at the last milisecond.

Go fight a high level kensei with shinobi and oh boy you will see that my little "three dash attacks" will be an immediate death or atleast damn well close to it.

Tyrjo
07-29-2017, 07:53 AM
Considering the Shinobi has high damage output, is able to engage at range, do not show up on the radar and is nimble and slippery like an eel. He should have the downside of having low health.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 08:11 AM
See thats the thing, you don't see it as what you are seeing in the game
For instance you have all these statistics and number crunches and such 500ms 700ms 600ms blah blah. Screw all that, im telling it to you from the perspective of in the game. Not your numbers that were posted on some reddit post or on the patch notes. Theres a difference between reading about it and actually seeing it. On PC light parries just fly to you guys sure, but as a console player the parrying isnt so much just like pc players switch guards faster than console players with the controller. Im telling it like it is, and that gauranteed heavy attack is a load of crap.

I can bet you right here right now that I am not the only shinobi player who has landed a solid kick on an opponent and thrown out a heavy just to watch them block it or parry it at the last unbelievable second and I sat there saying "That makes no sense".

The kick is too telegraphed, simple as that and if you want to prove it to me dont provide me with your crappy numbers show me some visuals. Show me some clips of you playing shinobi and you landed 10 consecutive kicks during a match, 10 out of 10 attempts, You cant, you wont. Unless you are playing with some bots.

Tired of all these numbers and patch statistics being the only thing people can rely on in these forums as arguement. Players are stating what they are seeing as they play, Ive versed many shinobi and ive sat there and watched them do the kick and ive easy had time to say "here comes the kick" and dodge it at the last milisecond.

Go fight a high level kensei with shinobi and oh boy you will see that my little "three dash attacks" will be an immediate death or atleast damn well close to it.

You just contradicted yourself, if the game is less responsive on console than you should be landing the kicks far more frequently. If you aren't landing the heavy after the kick then you are doing it too late, it's 100% confirmed. Btw I play on console and score light parries all the times on dash attacks, it's not that uncommon for average players to get parries on those. So four players are saying that he's weak while four of us are saying he's just fine, why does your word carry more weight than ours? So you have to land attack 10/10 times for it to be effective? Yeah not even warlords headbutt or pks is going to have that record against players that are half decent. There's really no dash attack easier to parry than kenseis and that's still only 20 damage each, he will need to land 5 of those to kill shin.

Claudius_Katt
07-29-2017, 09:26 AM
I'm a Rep 9 Shinobi and I think the pnly issue with him is that they nerfed his kick a bit too hard,
The 50/50 had to go and the kick needed the nerf for certain, but my opponents generally dodge about 95% of kicks and I get punished brutally for missing with it making it a very very risky move,
I'd like it if they sped it back up slightly but I think any attention should probably wait till after the defence meta changes are finalised and released,
He feels very close to being in a good place in my opinion, a little underpowered but very very close to perfect.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 09:44 AM
Dude, I gave my opinion in this thread and another similar one, on why I feel the character is weak, and why I reached that conclusion. You resorted to "well maybe you should learn how to play" or "your playing it wrong, if only you played more like me" instead of dicussing the points/ disagreeing with them.

I felt what you (and some others) are arguing for to be flat out wrong, and generally bad tactics. So I looked up your stats to form a defence seen as we're resorting to "you don't play the class right".

Nothing "veiled" about my jab back at you. You insinuated (and still are) that I don't have a grasp on playing this class, and that's why your opinion is better than mine.

I generally think your one of the few people that sticks to the points in this forum, without resorting to ad hominems, just not today.

Ok, I apologise if it seems I was attacking you, I dislike the 'I know the game better than you because I happen to have better stats' argument which I have seen several people make and honestly reacted more to that. I'll tell you something I don't talk about because I don't like to make excuses, I will never be great at games because my fine motor dexterity absolutely sucks, like it is abnormally low, and this isn't even age, always has been from day one, so knowing the game and being able to accurately put it all into action are two different things for me and muscle memory only takes me so far, you can imagine how much worse it is in shooters, this is why I mostly play single player games. So if I came across stronger than I meant to, I apologise, you hit a pet peeve of mine quite hard with a pointy stick. Anyone pulling up my stats to compare their own against are essentially comparing themselves to a one legged man in a buttkicking contest, he has learned to live with it (I spent hours against bots in how to play before touching anything that affected stats), he might get a few, heck he might outright cheat (I have an elite controller for the extra buttons as much as for the button bindings so I don't lose my fingers travelling all over the pad) but he has to worry about sticking the landing.

My take on how to play the character comes from the renown system. You keep talking about 1vx, there is one class that gets renown for 1vx, the vanguard. There is a class that gets renown for guarding points and so might end up in 1vx, the heavy, the hybrid doesn't count, they get renown spread across everything so you play them as you best play the character. The assassin gets renown for killing people in 1v1 fights, as you would get in say the centurion example I gave where one turned away from me and he was dead before he could get his bearings, or in racking up kill chains which would come from getting the charged heavies in when the opponent is already in a fight. Other than that like I said, I play assassins, often, in many games, that is what I always base my thoughts on 4v4 by, hit and run, preferably when they are not looking because fair fights are for people with better armour than me, is my general style.

Existentialmeme
07-29-2017, 01:04 PM
Shinobi does need some sort of buff, but not for the reason most of you guys are talking about....

The kick is fine as it is now, if people dodge your kick so much, it most likely means you're spamming it.

Shinobi has many different mixups that aren't written in the moveset, like you can perform a ranged grab after double dash.

And lastly, to be good at shinobi, you have to be at least decent at deflects and parries, and learn to really know how to position yourself in dominion gank situations

What he lacks is the ability to continue his combos, largely because a lot involves the ranged attack and grabs.
The ranged grab is easy to counter and pulls you to the ground, but you do get a full sickle rain combo if you succeed, so I think it's justified.
But the ranged attack is horrible.... it either gets parried and makes you fall to the ground and get punished a ton, or it gets blocked and stops your combo completely, people almost never get hit with the ranged attack in my experience.

I think his ranged heavy should not get interrupted on block, make it act like any other heavy: doesn't get interrupted on block, only perfect block or parry.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 01:22 PM
Shinobi does need some sort of buff, but not for the reason most of you guys are talking about....

The kick is fine as it is now, if people dodge your kick so much, it most likely means you're spamming it.

Shinobi has many different mixups that aren't written in the moveset, like you can perform a ranged grab after double dash.

And lastly, to be good at shinobi, you have to be at least decent at deflects and parries, and learn to really know how to position yourself in dominion gank situations

What he lacks is the ability to continue his combos, largely because a lot involves the ranged attack and grabs.
The ranged grab is easy to counter and pulls you to the ground, but you do get a full sickle rain combo if you succeed, so I think it's justified.
But the ranged attack is horrible.... it either gets parried and makes you fall to the ground and get punished a ton, or it gets blocked and stops your combo completely, people almost never get hit with the ranged attack in my experience.

I think his ranged heavy should not get interrupted on block, make it act like any other heavy: doesn't get interrupted on block, only perfect block or parry.

Yeah reasonable point, if someone sees me coming I tend to hold charged heavy then double dash kick while they are preparing a block or cgb, that lets me then get the guardbreak, which I think is guaranteed, not been stopped on it, off of the kick.

Claudius_Katt
07-29-2017, 02:38 PM
Shinobi does need some sort of buff, but not for the reason most of you guys are talking about....

The kick is fine as it is now, if people dodge your kick so much, it most likely means you're spamming it.

Shinobi has many different mixups that aren't written in the moveset, like you can perform a ranged grab after double dash.

And lastly, to be good at shinobi, you have to be at least decent at deflects and parries, and learn to really know how to position yourself in dominion gank situations

What he lacks is the ability to continue his combos, largely because a lot involves the ranged attack and grabs.
The ranged grab is easy to counter and pulls you to the ground, but you do get a full sickle rain combo if you succeed, so I think it's justified.
But the ranged attack is horrible.... it either gets parried and makes you fall to the ground and get punished a ton, or it gets blocked and stops your combo completely, people almost never get hit with the ranged attack in my experience.

I think his ranged heavy should not get interrupted on block, make it act like any other heavy: doesn't get interrupted on block, only perfect block or parry.

Its actually rather interesting because I rarely if ever kick because it usually means I instantly lose a ton of healthor worse just die.
If a kick slips out its usually an accident done on reflex and may get used once per fight if at all, when it happens 9 times out of 10 i promptly get dodged and slaughtered like a worthless pig,
However personally I have zero issues with his ranged guard breaks or ranged heavies finding them personally to be in a good place and extremely useful in my mixups.

Its very interesting how different our perspectives are,
Could possibly be based heavily on the type and calibre of opponents we're facing?
Or maybe its because I play console,
Definitely agree on the mastery of parries and deflect being necessary,
Also the ranged guard break after double dash is excellent but I have been avoiding using it because I have a nagging feeling that it will get removed in the near future so I'm reluctant To rely on it too heavily,
It would be nice to have one of the devs confirm its actually intentional so i'll feel more confident adding it to my repetoir of of attacks.

Existentialmeme
07-29-2017, 05:54 PM
Its actually rather interesting because I rarely if ever kick because it usually means I instantly lose a ton of healthor worse just die.
If a kick slips out its usually an accident done on reflex and may get used once per fight if at all, when it happens 9 times out of 10 i promptly get dodged and slaughtered like a worthless pig,
However personally I have zero issues with his ranged guard breaks or ranged heavies finding them personally to be in a good place and extremely useful in my mixups.

Its very interesting how different our perspectives are,
Could possibly be based heavily on the type and calibre of opponents we're facing?
Or maybe its because I play console,
Definitely agree on the mastery of parries and deflect being necessary,
Also the ranged guard break after double dash is excellent but I have been avoiding using it because I have a nagging feeling that it will get removed in the near future so I'm reluctant To rely on it too heavily,
It would be nice to have one of the devs confirm its actually intentional so i'll feel more confident adding it to my repetoir of of attacks.

Hmmm, most likely it's because we're playing on different platforms.
I heard that on console defense meta isn't really a big issue because of framerate, so parries and such are harder to pull off.
On PC I get parried about 90% of the time when using the Ranged heavy...

Removing the ranged grab after double dash means they'll have to remove the ability for shinobi to use the charge after double dash, which would really suck and make Shinobi crappy...

Claudius_Katt
07-30-2017, 12:25 AM
Hmmm, most likely it's because we're playing on different platforms.
I heard that on console defense meta isn't really a big issue because of framerate, so parries and such are harder to pull off.
On PC I get parried about 90% of the time when using the Ranged heavy...

Removing the ranged grab after double dash means they'll have to remove the ability for shinobi to use the charge after double dash, which would really suck and make Shinobi crappy...

I've been told CGB and parry are more challenging on console and given I get my ranged heavies stopped about 50% of the time, either blocked about 30% of the time or parried maybe 20% is probably a good indication of the framerate causing issues,
The more I hear about the differences between PC and console the more I feel it would be in their best interest to balance each accordingly, although it should probably be done with PC in mind primarily as they have been doing because thats were the major issues lie at the moment, and then work on the console issues afterwards.

I sincerely hope they do leave his ranged grab after double dash alone but I still fear it might be getting hit with the nerf hammer soon.

Time will tell i guess,
Its been very good chatting with you.

SerArthur-Dayne
07-30-2017, 09:43 AM
@CandleInThe Dark

Sorry I was a bit short yesterday too man. I didn't mean to bash your opinion, but just validate my own by saying I have put the time in and haven't just run here in frustration after one rep with him or not learning his play style. Yeah I know what you mean you can know the game without being the best player in the world, so long as you have the hours put in!

I guess my concern with the way it's balanced (or meant to be) in 1vX is that if Vanguards are for multiple opponents, heavies for tanking and holding points, and assasins for winning 1v1s, then I think this might be a bad way to balance this sort of game, considering it caters to both duels and 4v4 modes. That should mean that shinobi should be winning all the tournament duels along with the other assasins in that case, but as far as I know, Pk is the only compedative pick with the other assasins never used. I believe it's shugoki, WL, warden, PK and then the rest of the cast.. and then at the bottom is the other assasins and conq.

I just think the game would be better if they attempt to make all heroes compedative in 1v1, but also, make all heroes compedative in 1vX scenarios, but just give them different strengths. I don't think making some classes great in a group fight, while making others utterly useless in a group fight is fun or balanced, it just ends up being frustrating. That's just my thoughts on it anyway.

@Claudius_Katt

"Its very interesting how different our perspectives are,
Could possibly be based heavily on the type and calibre of opponents we're facing?"

I think this is the crux of the problem tbh. The people I'm getting matched against pretty much 100% have no problems pulling me onto my *** for even thinking about using a ranged attack. And because every mixup shinobi has relies on yoyoing in and out, this pretty much throws 90% of his moveset in the bin. You have the kick which isn't worth it other than maybe the very odd one, deflects and some stock standard attacks.

People are saying he has all this mobility, but he feels less mobile than the roster of assasins, because it's not useable mobility, it's just gimmicks. Double dash is a gimmick, and when 2 enemies are advancing on you, it doesn't do much at all to keep them spaced away. The other problem is pretty much all of his attacks take FAR to long to consider using in a gank, and just attempting most of them once spells Insta-death. Sickle rain, kick, ranged heavies ( too slow and get parried once and it's Insta death),ranged gb, his gb throw animation into another player is slow, terrible guard deterioration, gets hit mid roll/ backflip as all hits just heatseek you, a very poor zone attack that's weak and an instant parry, terrible punish on downed enemies, and no dodge attack to keep staying mobile while dealing damage.

The ranged attacks are fairly meaningless unless ganking, and even then I find it better to just Melee.The upside of every once in a while using a ranged gb to kick someone into a pit, in my opinion, doesn't begin to come close to the downside of having almost no ability to 1v2, a plethora of average to semi useless moves and also having poor attack types to fight a group and the lowest health.

I dunno, I don't think his kick should be buffed or his ranged attacks, as many find it annoying. But his ability to group fight could at least be brough closer to what the other assasins can bring to the table so using him in any 4v4 isn't just a bitter session of self flagellation and tolerance testing! Anyway that's just my take on it, cheers.

CandleInTheDark
07-30-2017, 10:22 AM
@CandleInThe Dark

Sorry I was a bit short yesterday too man. I didn't mean to bash your opinion, but just validate my own by saying I have put the time in and haven't just run here in frustration after one rep with him or not learning his play style. Yeah I know what you mean you can know the game without being the best player in the world, so long as you have the hours put in!

I guess my concern with the way it's balanced (or meant to be) in 1vX is that if Vanguards are for multiple opponents, heavies for tanking and holding points, and assasins for winning 1v1s, then I think this might be a bad way to balance this sort of game, considering it caters to both duels and 4v4 modes. That should mean that shinobi should be winning all the tournament duels along with the other assasins in that case, but as far as I know, Pk is the only compedative pick with the other assasins never used. I believe it's shugoki, WL, warden, PK and then the rest of the cast.. and then at the bottom is the other assasins and conq.

I just think the game would be better if they attempt to make all heroes compedative in 1v1, but also, make all heroes compedative in 1vX scenarios, but just give them different strengths. I don't think making some classes great in a group fight, while making others utterly useless in a group fight is fun or balanced, it just ends up being frustrating. That's just my thoughts on it anyway.

It's ok, sometimes people get heated over debates, what it does show is that there is a lot of passion in the community whatever the naysayers would tell you, and yeah I do get your point, they need to be balanced in 4v4 also, the devs made the point that they have no 'official main mode' and when they put in balances they have to keep both in mind and they definitely have some work to do in 4v4 to make that on a par with 1v1 in terms of balance which they still have some work to do with. I don't keep track of things competitively but yeah that sounds about right, I think PK has fallen down the ladder some with the spam fix but even so she is strong enough still, I'd say more around the level they want to get others to, the challenge is always getting characters to the same kind of level without making them all the same, which is kind of my issue since I mostly play assassins and a different way of playing with a character within that class is a good thing, but there are always things that can be improved on.

A bit off topic, but I do think Ubi will get there eventually in terms of buffs and nerfs to get things mostly balanced, I kind of expected it would start out a mess to be honest if not worse than it actually did. The developers may have been with this game since it was stickmen but that doesn't mean they've done other fighter games and Ubisoft hasn't that I am aware, closest to it is Assassin's Creed and you don't want balance there, you want mooks to blow by and bosses to challenge you. Closest I can think of period is Dynasty Warriors, I love it for what it is but what it is is a two button combination fest with specials every thirty seconds. A while back people criticised the devs and made the point that Injustice 2 got there right away, I would challenge that with yeah but they follow a template that is at least as old as Street Fighter 2 on the amiga (1991 so 26 years ago) which you can find online for free now if you're nostalgic, I saw clips of Injustice and while graphics are obviously a huge advance and the story is different, I honestly thought I played this game twenty years or so ago. That isn't a bash at the game or those who like it or Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat or whatever, just saying that For Honor is quite different to those.

FLOWJACK529
07-30-2017, 11:50 AM
they nerfed shinobi into the the dirt. yes u can be successful if ur a KS-ing ***** running around and ganking all the time but thats just no fun for anyone and pretty cheesey if u ask me. after fighting a shinobi a few times you learn his extremely predictable and easily countered combos and initiates and on top of this his extremely low health pool he's extremely easy to kill especially if ur a character with super armor.

Alustar.
07-30-2017, 12:52 PM
Hmmm, most likely it's because we're playing on different platforms.
I heard that on console defense meta isn't really a big issue because of framerate, so parries and such are harder to pull off.
On PC I get parried about 90% of the time when using the Ranged heavy...

Removing the ranged grab after double dash means they'll have to remove the ability for shinobi to use the charge after double dash, which would really suck and make Shinobi crappy...

Consoles issues with not having to deal with a defensive meta have nothing to do with frame rates. It has everything to do with data transfer issues that consoles have. Unless you are running an entirely hard wired set up. From your modem to your controller everything is corded, then wireless latency is going to reduce your ability to react. Additionally anyone not able to rebind keys will have to deal with controller dead zones.

Frame rate refers to the amount of frames in a given segment. I don't know where, how or when people started this bandwagon of increasing frame rates as a means of having more time to react to actions, but it's false. an over head light at 30fps that takes 500ms to complete will still take 500ms to complete at 60fps. The only difference is that at 30fps that same move will have 15 key animation frames. Where as the one at 60 will have 30. You don't just arbitrarily add in extra frames to extend an animation sequence.

fTy7ZBO2
07-30-2017, 02:10 PM
they nerfed shinobi into the the dirt. yes u can be successful if ur a KS-ing ***** running around and ganking all the time but thats just no fun for anyone and pretty cheesey if u ask me. after fighting a shinobi a few times you learn his extremely predictable and easily countered combos and initiates and on top of this his extremely low health pool he's extremely easy to kill especially if ur a character with super armor.

This is like the only guy in this topic that actualy read what i said.....


i said the shinobi needs a hp buff so you can actualy fight or have a chance in a 2 v 1 since at the moment the only way to play hem is to gank or stay with some guy never alone and that is not fun and booring