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ELDRIX_
07-28-2017, 11:17 AM
Reason why you almost never see any Valks doing the dodge counter is:

-Can't dodge when moving guard
-going for a deflect is risky already
-Shoulder Pin often gets blocked for reasons i'm not aware of

Pls make Valks dodge-counters more efficient and not only a style bonus thing
her viable moveset is already limited

My.Insanity
07-28-2017, 11:26 AM
Valk need more love !!!

- make shoulder Pin usefull
- reduce recovery time from Dash attacks (which gives a free GB when blocked)
- increase her dmg (at last the dmg of her Heavys)
- and for F**k sake give her a Light/Heavy/Light combo for more Mindgames (you can remove the Light/Light/Light combo for this)

Draghmar
07-28-2017, 11:29 AM
- reduce recovery time from Dash attacks (which gives a free GB when blocked)
I think the idea for this is to prevent spamming those attacks (as with Kensei's dodge attack).

ELDRIX_
07-28-2017, 11:54 AM
Like the thing i hate the most is that even if i react correctly she sometimes doesnt even move
With Berserker,orochi and Kensei i don't have these problems
I can even deflect Valk lights

DrinkinMehStella
07-28-2017, 12:26 PM
She can be guard broken with nearly every missed attack. I use to main every till everyone realised if they block a light then its a free GB, her recovery time from the shield tackle/bash and sweep is too long and her dmg is very low. I got her to rep 10 but would really like to play her but she just doesn't match up in higher level plays.

Draghmar
07-28-2017, 12:31 PM
She can be guard broken with nearly every missed attack. I use to main every till everyone realised if they block a light then its a free GB, her recovery time from the shield tackle/bash and sweep is too long and her dmg is very low. I got her to rep 10 but would really like to play her but she just doesn't match up in higher level plays.
Wait what? Really? I didn't know that...Shame on me then...So if just block first light I can safely GB?

ELDRIX_
07-28-2017, 12:37 PM
Wait what? Really? I didn't know that...Shame on me then...So if just block first light I can safely GB?

Only all dash lights

SenBotsu893
07-28-2017, 12:42 PM
-Can't dodge when moving guard
-going for a deflect is risky already

her viable moveset is already limited

its not a deflect its superior block on dodge. Kensei has the exact same dodge mechanic.

and yes its not very usefull.

and i strongly disagree with metal4thecore. since her dash attacks have such a short indication it would make her an even bigger light spam queen if the guaranteed GB would be removed. at least on console i have never seen someone parry her dodge attacks. And increasing her damage is a bad idea because she still has the bugged spearsweep for free heavys.

Draghmar
07-28-2017, 12:44 PM
Only all dash lights
Oh that one...That don't work for Nobushi. At least when I tried that I failed to connect GB, too much distance I guess.

DrinkinMehStella
07-28-2017, 12:46 PM
Wait what? Really? I didn't know that...Shame on me then...So if just block first light I can safely GB?

yeah any dash or pouncing light being blocked gets a free GB all you have to do is turtle up and block then GB thats why I stopped using her.

My.Insanity
07-28-2017, 12:53 PM
its not a deflect its superior block on dodge. Kensei has the exact same dodge mechanic.

and yes its not very usefull.

and i strongly disagree with metal4thecore. since her dash attacks have such a short indication it would make her an even bigger light spam queen if the guaranteed GB would be removed. at least on console i have never seen someone parry her dodge attacks. And increasing her damage is a bad idea because she still has the bugged spearsweep for free heavys.

1. you dont need to parry her doge attacks... each of them give a free GB at block (if you try to parry them you deserve to eat the dmg)
2. why should her heavy dmg stay this low? for example: many Heros have Top heavys which deal more dmg... all of Valks heavys deal 25 dmg no matter from where.
3. Other Heros like Centurio get a free heavy when you hit the dirt.. and this free heavy deals 10 dmg more then a normal heavy.... WHY???

Valk is in my eyes the worst Hero for Duel.. try her.. she has 0 opener and she need a lot of effort for a kill.

Btw:

- give her a free light attack after a successful Shiledbash (Shiledbash is so slow and you get nothing out of it)

SenBotsu893
07-28-2017, 01:11 PM
1. you dont need to parry her doge attacks... each of them give a free GB at block (if you try to parry them you deserve to eat the dmg)
2. why should her heavy dmg stay this low? for example: many Heros have Top heavys which deal more dmg... all of Valks heavys deal 25 dmg no matter from where.
3. Other Heros like Centurio get a free heavy when you hit the dirt.. and this free heavy deals 10 dmg more then a normal heavy.... WHY???

Valk is in my eyes the worst Hero for Duel.. try her.. she has 0 opener and she need a lot of effort for a kill.

Btw:

- give her a free light attack after a successful Shiledbash (Shiledbash is so slow and you get nothing out of it)

1 you just said it yourself. (if you try to parry them you deserve to eat the dmg) thats why you should be able to stop the incomming spam with a block.
2 i explained it already in my origianl post: becasue she gets the guranteed heavy after the still bugged spearsweep.
3 centurion .... is..... i dont even know where to start. he is just broken in so many aspects i cant even use him to compare to the vanilla characters.

valk has many mix ups with her shield bash and sweep and her jump into fullblock stance allows for even more mix ups and help regenerate her last hp bar becasue the enemy cant open her up.
trust me some characters are even worse for duels.

ELDRIX_
07-28-2017, 01:30 PM
Wait what? Really? I didn't know that...Shame on me then...So if just block first light I can safely GB?


its not a deflect its superior block on dodge. Kensei has the exact same dodge mechanic.

and yes its not very usefull.

and i strongly disagree with metal4thecore. since her dash attacks have such a short indication it would make her an even bigger light spam queen if the guaranteed GB would be removed. at least on console i have never seen someone parry her dodge attacks. And increasing her damage is a bad idea because she still has the bugged spearsweep for free heavys.

Kensei = Superior Block
Valkyrie = Dodge Counter

They look the same but arent the same
With superior block you don't need to Dash into the attack you can just have your guard where the attack is coming from and dash forward also superior block has more frames so it doesnt have to happen immediately

Dodge Counter works like a deflect because you have to dodge into the attack,
but you can choose whether you gb or shoulder pin
The bad thing about this is her slow dodge and the fact that you cant dodge while moving your guard and that isnt just bad for her dodge counters but also for avoiding attacks

CandleInTheDark
07-28-2017, 01:39 PM
I'd be tempted to go back to using valk some if I felt I could use her more efficiently without spending the whole time doing the sweep heavy sweep heavy combination and making shoulderpin more useful, as I use deflects elsewhere, would be a good step in that direction for me. The problem I have with her is I can honestly stomp people with the sweeps and heavies (or I could, bear in mind she was I think the second character I put levels into and I was facing fellow newbies) but if I tried to do anything else I struggled in duel and was deadweight on my team in 4v4, I don't think I ever used a 4th tier feat with her unless I was spamming spear sweeps.

My.Insanity
07-28-2017, 01:41 PM
1. Dafuq? Ofc you should be able to stop the "spam" with a block??? But why in the nine Hells should you get a free GB for DOING NOTHING !!!! a free GB could be an instant KILL... FOR BLOCKING AN ATTACK????????!!! If this is your logic so every hero who use a dash attack such as (orochi / pk / wl / cent / kensei / bersker ... etc) need to give a free GB with block.. because... stop the spam?!

... sorry i dont mean to attack you in person or so... it just think that there is absolut no reason why people should get a free GB for absoulut no risk. If other Heros have the same problem (dunno if Kensei got the same problem with this dash attacks) then he need a smaller recovery too.. their should be NO free GB after a SIMPLE BLOCK for every Hero in this game!

And yes i know Cent is the biggest broken piece of Sh!t but i still hope the Devs will suprise me with a fix/nerf for him. Valk may have some good mixups.. but she can only shine if the enemy f**ked up to block her second light attack... all her combos start with a light or a shiledbash.... and atm i dont see any Hero who is this bad in duel... even a orochi can spam their double light top / zone

Draghmar
07-28-2017, 01:53 PM
1. Dafuq? Ofc you should be able to stop the "spam" with a block??? But why in the nine Hells should you get a free GB for DOING NOTHING !!!! a free GB could be an instant KILL... FOR BLOCKING AN ATTACK????????!!! If this is your logic so every hero who use a dash attack such as (orochi / pk / wl / cent / kensei / bersker ... etc) need to give a free GB with block.. because... stop the spam?!
I don't know who you referring to but I'll answer this. :P
Preventing spam was official explanation by Ubi on one of the stream in regards to Kensei where blocking dodge attack grants GB.

Antonioj26
07-28-2017, 01:59 PM
its not a deflect its superior block on dodge. Kensei has the exact same dodge mechanic.

and yes its not very usefull.

and i strongly disagree with metal4thecore. since her dash attacks have such a short indication it would make her an even bigger light spam queen if the guaranteed GB would be removed. at least on console i have never seen someone parry her dodge attacks. And increasing her damage is a bad idea because she still has the bugged spearsweep for free heavys.

I parry it all the time and I'm on console. It's simply not worth using those attacks unless it's for an oos punish, it only gives you 17 damage. That's the tiniest reward for an attack when a simple block can punish you from 25- 65 damage if there's a wall nearby.

My.Insanity
07-28-2017, 02:02 PM
i referring to SenBotsu893 last post..

btw i still dont get it.. i mean are the Devs expecting that Valks and Kenseis move around an enemy in a circle only using left and right dash? I mean realy?? does this even work? how could this not end in an parry where you will eat sh!t????

Antonioj26
07-28-2017, 02:14 PM
1 you just said it yourself. (if you try to parry them you deserve to eat the dmg) thats why you should be able to stop the incomming spam with a block.
2 i explained it already in my origianl post: becasue she gets the guranteed heavy after the still bugged spearsweep.
3 centurion .... is..... i dont even know where to start. he is just broken in so many aspects i cant even use him to compare to the vanilla characters.

valk has many mix ups with her shield bash and sweep and her jump into fullblock stance allows for even more mix ups and help regenerate her last hp bar becasue the enemy cant open her up.
trust me some characters are even worse for duels.

1. You can still block the incoming damage, and a block shouldn't be a 25-65 damage punish.

2. I sort of agree with you but landing 3 attacks in a row bugged or not should give a pretty decent reward. 55 damage isn't really that much when you put it in that perspective. Don't forget the punish for the sweep is a free gb so you get to trade 29 damage for 25-65 if a wall is nearby.

Fullblock stance is useless, you don't even get anything from it unless it's fully charged and even then it's just a dash attack. 17 damage for an attack that takes 500ms to charge and takes 600-900 ms depending on the distance to land. To put things in perspective it's like if LBs long arm was slower and gave you just a free light. Don't forget the gb punish that I keep repeating either.

Her regular shield bash is 600ms, and can only be activated after a heavy or soft feinted from a heavy. It nets you zero damage since there's no guaranteed follow up and it risks the gb punish. Zero damage for 25-65 damage if by a wall.....

I do agree that there are other characters that are worse in duels but she's not as great as people think she is. Way too high risk for way too low reward, all she really has is light spam, low dodge recovery, a 68 oos punish, and a way to get someone oos if they are low enough for 60damage if she lands a gb.

SenBotsu893
07-28-2017, 02:22 PM
Kensei = Superior Block
Valkyrie = Dodge Counter

They look the same but arent the same
With superior block you don't need to Dash into the attack you can just have your guard where the attack is coming from and dash forward also superior block has more frames so it doesnt have to happen immediately

Dodge Counter works like a deflect because you have to dodge into the attack,
but you can choose whether you gb or shoulder pin
The bad thing about this is her slow dodge and the fact that you cant dodge while moving your guard and that isnt just bad for her dodge counters but also for avoiding attacks

oh so valks auto adjust to the direction of the dodge.... huh thats way better than kenseis superior block on dodge since like you said you cant dodge while making guardstance changes.

ELDRIX_
07-29-2017, 12:25 AM
Wait what? Really? I didn't know that...Shame on me then...So if just block first light I can safely GB?


oh so valks auto adjust to the direction of the dodge.... huh thats way better than kenseis superior block on dodge since like you said you cant dodge while making guardstance changes.


-slow inconsistent Dodges
-almost need to predict a light if you want to "deflect"
-shoulder pin deals 25 dmg like her heavies and Gets auto blocked 30% of the time
-move your guard while trying to deflect a light and it will hit you

We.the.North
07-29-2017, 12:47 AM
Have you ever tried doing a dodge attack with a valk trying to actually DODGE and counterattack the incoming attack ?? You sidestep 10 cm away from your position and ALL attacks will still hit you.

Her dodge attack isn't a dodge, it's a trap.

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 12:48 AM
Like the thing i hate the most is that even if i react correctly she sometimes doesnt even move
With Berserker,orochi and Kensei i don't have these problems
I can even deflect Valk lights

THIS. I main Valk, almost exclusively actually. I love Valk so much, but despite appearing to be a nimble hybrid, she feels very clunky with poor reactions and a laughably huge recovery window. She's so easy to punish that if you make a single mistake you can bet that you're going to lose a large chunk of your health.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 01:11 AM
Have you ever tried doing a dodge attack with a valk trying to actually DODGE and counterattack the incoming attack ?? You sidestep 10 cm away from your position and ALL attacks will still hit you.

Her dodge attack isn't a dodge, it's a trap.

You're right, it is a trap for the valk. 17 damage isn't worth the potential punish of 25-65 damage depending on the character or if theres a wall nearby.

UbiNoty
07-29-2017, 01:17 AM
Ty for the valk feedback on her dodge counter, I'll pass it on over - do you have any suggestions for improvements/changes that you think would help with her dodge counter and overall kit?

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 05:08 AM
Ty for the valk feedback on her dodge counter, I'll pass it on over - do you have any suggestions for improvements/changes that you think would help with her dodge counter and overall kit?

All the complaints and no response when Ubi asks for suggestions? Ok, I'll bite.

***For the dodge counter: I use the side step-light offensively, and it works well in that capacity. Defensively, dodging and successfully hitting the deflect into pin is something I never do, because the window feels too small to justify the mediocre damage output. I'm not the best Valk, but I'm not terrible, and I NEVER use shoulder pin. In fact, in hundreds of games I don't remember ever landing this. The risk vs reward just doesn't justify even trying.

***Following the above, given that you need a successful deflect when you dodge and then you also have press heavy at that perfect instant to even attempt a shoulder pin. After that, it may just end up being blocked somehow. Think about this. Each hybrid has it's own flavor, and I think that the devs intended Valk to be essentially a character that plays like an assassin, but has more supportive moves and a little more defense. She excels in duels, but is also a tremendous asset to the team if you play her supportively. She could hang back and oversee team fights, dip in when need to help a teammates, and ward off potential aggressors with her shield tackle stance and the threat of applying bleeds... But instead her shield tackle has no tracking and so isn't that scary, and I would go so far as to say that shoulder pin is not a real move because it's NEVER used, so the bleed effect that she was given literally just doesn't work.

***Her shield tackle is absolutely crucial, because she has no other readily available unblockable or uninterruptible. A well timed shield tackle is the best defense she has AND used correctly the only way she can crack a turtle.

-Defensively against aggressors, it sometimes doesn't block hits though. Many times I've been in a pinch with a couple enemies on me, I fire off a shield tackle and time it correctly, but the enemy attack goes right through my shield and kills me. I see my enemy knocked down, but I'm hit in the process and die.

-Offensively, it's almost useless against someone with presence of mind because it has no tracking whatsoever and the second you let go of it the opponent can dodge in any direction and follow up with a free GB. If it were patched to correctly block hits, and maybe the window to dodge was just ever so slightly reduced, it would make a huge and fair difference to the class.

-Another huge annoyance I have with Valk's shield tackle is that although it's one of her most crucial moves and the only available unblockable, every other unblockable in the game overrides it as far as I know. If I rear back and blast out my "unblockable" shield tackle and a centurion kicks me, his kick breaks through my shield and knocks me down and he is totally unaffected (it's almost funny how ridiculous that is that a standing kick breaks through a charge with a shield, just stupid).


***Her recovery window is awful. I know of no other class that is as easy to punish as a valkyrie. This is a "feel" thing so although I wish I could give specifics, she just overall feels very clumsy, like she could trip over a stone and any move she makes leaves her unbalanced and staggering helplessly. Her recovery window needs to be just a tad faster so that she doesn't get mercilessly punished for every tiny mistake she makes. I personally enjoy maining the "unicorn" class of FH that few people use, but I also will tell you that the single greatest reason that few use her is this. She is so easily punished that people try her and thing "wow, this class is awful and clumsy, she doesn't respond to my controls and just stands there and dies." And they're right that she's clumsy. The learning curve to adjust to how long it takes her to recover is just too much for people, and even for me maining her it's still very frustrating at times. Oh, and I also feel that this same reason makes her viability gradually fall off the higher you go in the skill tiers. Against smarter and more astute opponents, her one-mistake-equals-death because increasingly lethal for anyone who plays her. I'm reach the point of paranoia, because I know that if my opponent knows his class and I fudge one thing, there's a good chance that I'll lose anywhere from a third to half of my health.

***This is a dream, but making the final heavy of her light-light-heavy chain unblockable would be orgasmic. As it is, Valk has no unblockable offensive attack--all other hybrids have this, all vanguards have this, orochi has this. Valk's moveset puts her in the position where she has a uniquely hard time getting executions, and has nothing to reliably crack turtles. The overwhelming majority of my kills are kills that I got with well timed pokes with my light attacks. If I want an execution, I basically need to land a GB or else I'm just swinging and hoping.

***Valk's zone is great against soldiers and garbage against people that matter. Two wild and crazy slow attacks flung out haphazardly is borderline useless in actual combat against all but the dumbest of opponents.

***Her damage isn't as abysmally low as a lot of her enthusiasts complain about... but it's relatively low. Given that she can't wield unblockables and has to basically out-maneuver everyone she comes up against, it seems fair that the trade off would be that her attacks sting just a bit more than they do. Why are they like this? Well, like I said above, she was INTENDED to have bleeds to stack extra damage... Anyone looking for why her attacks are missing damage? There it is, hidden in her unusable bleed effect. So she either needs that bleed damage put back into her normal attacks, or her bleed move needs to be patch to make it usable.