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View Full Version : So now that Flicker is being executed, how do you intend to repair Orochi?



Rikuto01.tv
07-20-2017, 06:30 PM
I've been competing frequently in FH tournaments and almost exclusively using Orochi. I've been doing good with him too, so believe me when I say this. Annoying or not, flicker was his only way to mount an effective offense. He can punish whiffs, yes, and he can score good counter-hits off of his top light combo. But this is assuming your opponent cares to hit buttons in a careless manner. As far as offense goes, he needed that flicker to be functional.


Things get nerfed, things get buffed, that's life. I'll be moving to Berserker or Shugoki most likely as it sounds like they could be pretty fun in the chip/stamina meta.


But Orochi-san will be dead at a competitive level unless he receives some other viable mixup. Hope you've got a plan for him, it was fun while it lasted.

Oupyz
07-20-2017, 06:39 PM
they made a balance patch , waiit till next week and check the pts , i see the changes a huge step towards fixing for honor

Netcode_err_404
07-20-2017, 06:40 PM
What exactlky was fun of the orochi ? Top light spam and abusing flicker ?

CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 06:42 PM
You could maybe use his counter attacking moves rather than look for safe openers? Someone scored a sick riptide strike execution on me the other day.

Rikuto01.tv
07-20-2017, 07:02 PM
Counter-attacking only works if your opponent hits buttons wildly. Not an excuse for bad design.


For any character to function they require a 50/50 of some sort, with limitations on its use. Orochi had this limitation tied to stamina, as well as the fact the zone could not kill with a single strike on low health threshold.

As far as the rest of his kit goes, it's fine. His whiff punishment is perhaps the best in the game and his movement is A+ tier. I've no complaints there.

But a character without offense is a character who requires the enemy to kill himself. And that is not a good character. But hey, I won't sit here and protest. I'm competitive and I'm already set to move on to the next viable choice. I'm just laying out the facts because I have been using Orochi more than 99.9% of the community and I've been winning tournaments with him left and right. I know exactly what he is capable of at a competitive level and why.

With this nerf, he is not viable in competitive play, only in casual play. We will see if there is a rebalance that comes with the patch but I am not holding my breath. It kinda sounds like they want to just let the system changes rock and pick up the pieces of broken characters later. Hopefully this feedback speeds up that process.

CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 07:09 PM
Counter-attacking only works if your opponent hits buttons wildly. Not an excuse for bad design.


For any character to function they require a 50/50 of some sort, with limitations on its use. Orochi had this limitation tied to stamina, as well as the fact the zone could not kill with a single strike on low health threshold.

As far as the rest of his kit goes, it's fine. His whiff punishment is perhaps the best in the game and his movement is A+ tier. I've no complaints there.

But a character without offense is a character who requires the enemy to kill himself. And that is not a good character. But hey, I won't sit here and protest. I'm competitive and I'm already set to move on to the next viable choice. I'm just laying out the facts because I have been using Orochi more than 99.9% of the community and I've been winning tournaments with him left and right. I know exactly what he is capable of at a competitive level and why.

With this nerf, he is not viable in competitive play, only in casual play.

I don't believe any of the counter attackers should have safe openers and as a peacekeeper main I include her in that, I would rather they slowed her lights and she had to do most of her work on dodge attacks and deflects. Riptide strike and storm rush are two of the most powerful punishes in the entire game then you add in the deflects. Roman mentioned the orochi when he was explaining the shinobi before season 2, he said the shinobi needs to get a lot of hits in, the difference to orochi being that orochi is a one hit burst kind of character and that is your deflects and your punishes.

With the rest of the defensive meta fixes coming, offence should be a more viable thing and maybe people need to start learning to use the tools they have rather than ask for new ones. The orochi has never, in my opinion, been broken as a matter of course, the defensive meta broke him and now that is going away somewhat.

Baggin_
07-20-2017, 10:22 PM
I've been competing frequently in FH tournaments and almost exclusively using Orochi. I've been doing good with him too, so believe me when I say this. Annoying or not, flicker was his only way to mount an effective offense. He can punish whiffs, yes, and he can score good counter-hits off of his top light combo. But this is assuming your opponent cares to hit buttons in a careless manner. As far as offense goes, he needed that flicker to be functional.


Things get nerfed, things get buffed, that's life. I'll be moving to Berserker or Shugoki most likely as it sounds like they could be pretty fun in the chip/stamina meta.


But Orochi-san will be dead at a competitive level unless he receives some other viable mixup. Hope you've got a plan for him, it was fun while it lasted.
I do really well with Orochi and I never use his zone. Gotta use his mixups with his hurrucane blast into gb and storm rush into gb.

CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 10:45 PM
Honestly if people have gotten by through using an exploit, one they have known for months the devs considered an exploit and were going to fix, instead of one of the strongest kits when it comes to punishing mistakes in the game I have absolutely zero sympathy.

Snoop_Godly
07-20-2017, 10:49 PM
Personally with this who defensive meta I think orochi would be a very good character now. If people are gonna be more aggressive then more openings for deflect. Only thing I think they should do though is make wind gust damage same as a light. Hurricane blast a 100% guarantee but same damage as a side heavy. Witch of course can also go into an execution if the last hit. Personally. If this defensive meta plays out as It should. Orochi wouldn't need an opener.

Arekonator
07-20-2017, 10:53 PM
Personally with this who defensive meta I think orochi would be a very good character now. If people are gonna be more aggressive then more openings for deflect. Only thing I think they should do though is make wind gust damage same as a light. Hurricane blast a 100% guarantee but same damage as a side heavy. Witch of course can also go into an execution if the last hit. Personally. If this defensive meta plays out as It should. Orochi wouldn't need an opener.

Doesnt make any sense.
Wind gust is already inferior to parry in every aspect. Its riskier, on tighter timing to perform and less reward, no point in nerfing it even further. Especially if you make hurricane blast 100% guaranteed there is no reason to use wind gust everm and you might as well straight up remove it from the game.

Felheric
07-20-2017, 10:57 PM
Orochi will get his dbl top light of every parry so defense meta doesnt change for him. Infact i think deflecting more with him could be option now since ppl will not get much of parrying your side dodge attack, so you can switch between parrying, deflecting with confirm, or option select dodge with attack

Snoop_Godly
07-20-2017, 11:08 PM
Actually yes. True. But it's good in a gang situation. Or buff it with a little bleed. Don't want to be using HB while being ganked. We would be perfect for switch from enemy to enemy. HB would still be the same time frames but guaranteed. We would be the same as well. Remember he does have hyper armor but can take hits. Personally I wouldn't risk a HB when a quick WG is viable in a gank situation now parry times are nerfed. Plus if you use say slip through. WG will do a bit more damage with that on. But I do see your point.

UbiNoty
07-20-2017, 11:40 PM
When the final version of the def meta updates actually go through, our next step is re-evaluation and re-balance of much of our cast of heroes. We understand that these def meta changes will have a huge impact and that we'll need to balance accordingly.

But it's still just in PT right now, so if you test him out there and have any feedback on how we can make Orochi viable without flicker exploits, we'll gladly take it.

Rikuto01.tv
07-20-2017, 11:49 PM
When the final version of the def meta updates actually go through, our next step is re-evaluation and re-balance of much of our cast of heroes. We understand that these def meta changes will have a huge impact and that we'll need to balance accordingly.

But it's still just in PT right now, so if you test him out there and have any feedback on how we can make Orochi viable without flicker exploits, we'll gladly take it.

Okay, speed up his zone so that its unreactable. Put it close to the PK's zone speed. That will easily result in the same situation the orochi was in before but without visual trickery of having the indicator bug out. The important thing is that it cannot be reactable -- you pay a truckload of stamina for the ability to pull off a true 50/50 with non-lethal damage. The rest of his offense is so entirely linear that it is already proven to be checked and balanced.