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View Full Version : P39 and F2 turning abilities



XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:44 PM
Hi, I´m sure this has been debated but as the searchfunction doesn´t work here we go. Isn´t the performance of the P39 quite improved in patch 1.11? I tried the N1 and it turned fast like hell, no problems to outturn a 109F4 (which is one of the ultimate dogfighters). And even more, I was chased by a P39 (Q1 I think) when flying a Yak1b at maximum G and at about 330-340km/h - couldn´t outturn him and the yak1b is one of the best turnfighters. It was a slice down turn as well so I didn´t give him any angles for free.

The 109F2 used to be a turnfighter on par with the I16 in il2 v1.2 and I think in FB 1.0 (didn´t try it in 1.1b). You really had to whatch for not blacking out. But now it´s high turnrate and tight turnradius seems reduced. It feels a bit underpowered, like a F4 with a weaker engine. May be more correct I don´t know??

Isn´t the P39´s FM the one which they have played around with the most?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:44 PM
Hi, I´m sure this has been debated but as the searchfunction doesn´t work here we go. Isn´t the performance of the P39 quite improved in patch 1.11? I tried the N1 and it turned fast like hell, no problems to outturn a 109F4 (which is one of the ultimate dogfighters). And even more, I was chased by a P39 (Q1 I think) when flying a Yak1b at maximum G and at about 330-340km/h - couldn´t outturn him and the yak1b is one of the best turnfighters. It was a slice down turn as well so I didn´t give him any angles for free.

The 109F2 used to be a turnfighter on par with the I16 in il2 v1.2 and I think in FB 1.0 (didn´t try it in 1.1b). You really had to whatch for not blacking out. But now it´s high turnrate and tight turnradius seems reduced. It feels a bit underpowered, like a F4 with a weaker engine. May be more correct I don´t know??

Isn´t the P39´s FM the one which they have played around with the most?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:12 PM
P-39 is currently accepted by even the most ardent Aircobra fans as having an "Optimistic" /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif FM.

I would hang on until Patch Version 1.2 though and see what happens.

S!

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:34 PM
Early 109s will still out turn the p39s....atleast the Fs and G2 can.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:17 PM
F16_Filur wrote:

- The 109F2 used to be a turnfighter on par with the
- I16 in il2 v1.2 and I think in FB 1.0 (didn´t try it
- in 1.1b). You really had to whatch for not blacking
- out. But now it´s high turnrate and tight turnradius
- seems reduced. It feels a bit underpowered, like a
- F4 with a weaker engine. May be more correct I don´t
- know??

this is a correct update - the F4 had a different engine - the F2s (at least the early ones) had the same engine as the E model. before the patch you had an F2 with F4s engine. the F2 was always a little bit "uber"

"the one and only MIG1 whiner"

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:33 PM
rummyrum wrote:
- Early 109s will still out turn the p39s....atleast
- the Fs and G2 can.
-
-

Thats true here is a track internal test p39q1 vs g2 turncircle at low alt.

You will notice withhin the higher speed margin p39 turns better than falling off at lower speeds.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/noc2002/records/


Regards,
Hyperion

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:27 PM
Just the fact that an F4 or G2 can hang in a turning circle with a Yak3 is amazing enough. Those models have close to a two-second longer turning circle at the same energy and altitude, than the Yak3, yet can hang in a circle with one for quite a few loops.

Hmmmm....Yak3 circle undermodelled or 109 turning circle overmodeled....you make the choice./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:39 PM
f4 has better powerloading and wingloading as yak3,never turn she 2sec better

only in olegs objecdata

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:43 PM
Of course, my numbers come from the Objects Viewer specs in the game. I've heard some say they aren't totally accurate, but they certainly show the fastest turning circle at 1000m and the F4 and G2 are close to two seconds behind the Yak3 in this category.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:48 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- Just the fact that an F4 or G2 can hang in a turning
- circle with a Yak3 is amazing enough. Those models
- have close to a two-second longer turning circle at
- the same energy and altitude, than the Yak3, yet can
- hang in a circle with one for quite a few loops.
-
- Hmmmm....Yak3 circle undermodelled or 109 turning
- circle overmodeled....you make the choice.

Yak3 is clearly overmodelled, it makes a 360 deg turn in 16 sec with sustained speed. That's much more that in real life, around 19 sec.

Yak3 turned poorer than Yak1b/9 because of significantly higher wing loading. The best turnfighters are in this order Yak9&F4/Yak3/G2, with the mention that between Yak9 and G2 there is less than 1.5 sec difference between their best turns (one mention though, 109 turn best to left, Yaks to the right, so be careful). Because their turn performance is that close, if get into buffeting no plane can get a distictive advantage, this is why you saw that G2 turns very well with Yaks. This should have happened with the first variant of Il2, but it's good that now drag induced by buffeting effects are more realisticaly modelled.

Unfortunately all 109 and to less extent some Yaks (yak3 for example) bleed the speed twice as fast as in reality. This really affects their energy management. Also in 109 the automatic mode if not working properly, if you reduce the boost to 1ata (cruise) the rpm goes to almost idle (less than 1300rpm) instead of staying at 2000rpm. CEM is completely porked on 109.


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:55 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- Just the fact that an F4 or G2 can hang in a turning
- circle with a Yak3 is amazing enough. Those models
- have close to a two-second longer turning circle at
- the same energy and altitude, than the Yak3, yet can
- hang in a circle with one for quite a few loops.
-
- Hmmmm....Yak3 circle undermodelled or 109 turning
- circle overmodeled....you make the choice./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif -
- _______________________________________
- çk?¯kT 2003**

I dont see slats on yak3 and i doubt that the majority of yak3 pilots fly at cornerspeed for turning . So its not unlikely that the slower speed cause of the turn turn turn trick the yak3 flys under its specs which is realistic. And the BF with slats at least the earlier models are very usefull to stay at slow speeds and suffer not so badly in turn performance cause of the slats. With later BF models you are in big trouble turnfighting a yak3 but variations with high low yoyos may hold you behind for 3 circles or so then you loose it. Its not advisable to turnfight a yak3 at all . But topic was p39 .)

Regards,
Hyperion

Buzz_25th
10-24-2003, 05:55 PM
My info says the Yak3 turned in 18 sec. The Yak9 in 16-17 sec.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:00 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- My info says the Yak3 turned in 18 sec. The Yak9 in
- 16-17 sec.

My info says that Brewster did 16-17sec and Yaks (all) very significantly clumsier. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:03 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- My info says the Yak3 turned in 18 sec. The Yak9 in
- 16-17 sec.


Object viewer says that Yak9 turns in 16-18 sec. Now you have to understand that this is a function of fuel load. At full fuel load and ammo it turns in 18 sec. In similar conditions F4 turns also in 18 sec. A loaded G2 turns in 19.5 sec, and a Yak3 turns in 18.5-19.5 sec depending on the side of the turn.


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:10 PM
I'm sure the historical numbers in the object viewer are more for real life, but using them as a guide, a 109 with almost 1.6-2.0 seconds longer turn, starting at equal energy at 1000m, should never be able to turn inside of a Yak3, given the pilots have the same ability.

Sure, the game is different than real life. But, Yak9 in this game cannot out turn the Yak3 for any extended period of time. 9T loses too much E. As for Yak3 against LA7, the Yak3 cannot sustain the turn as long as the LA7 can. The Yaks roll rate is what Yak drivers have to use against LAs to attempt to get an advantage. However, a smart LA pilot knows he can make the Yak3 run out of E before the LA does./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

From my flying experience, there isn't a 109 that can out turn a properly flown Yak3 or La7. B and Z yes, straight turn fight, not on any sustained level. I certainly haven't met a 109 pilot yet in two years that can out turn me in a Yak3 or La7 or P39 for that matter (but the P39 is a different story, due to interesting, current flight model). I would be glad to fly a 109 pilot who can out turn my Yak3 or La7, if they are around./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Getting back to the P39, she's too porked at this time to make any rational performance opinions, but she most certainly turns better than she ever has in the past, is much more stable, holds more E and the 37mm cannon is much more accurate now. She will be worked. Be sure./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:15 PM
And my info says I only need one pass.... Turning is for pussies/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Na, nevermind..

rgds

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:19 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- I'm sure the historical numbers in the object viewer
- are more for real life, but using them as a guide, a
- 109 with almost 1.6-2.0 seconds longer turn,
- starting at equal energy at 1000m, should never be
- able to turn inside of a Yak3, given the pilots have
- the same ability.
-
- Sure, the game is different than real life. But,
- Yak9 in this game cannot out turn the Yak3 for any
- extended period of time. 9T loses too much E. As
- for Yak3 against LA7, the Yak3 cannot sustain the
- turn as long as the LA7 can. The Yaks roll rate is
- what Yak drivers have to use against LAs to attempt
- to get an advantage. However, a smart LA pilot
- knows he can make the Yak3 run out of E before the
- LA does./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- From my flying experience, there isn't a 109 that
- can out turn a properly flown Yak3 or La7. B and Z
- yes, straight turn fight, not on any sustained
- level. I certainly haven't met a 109 pilot yet in
- two years that can out turn me in a Yak3 or La7 or
- P39 for that matter (but the P39 is a different
- story, due to interesting, current flight model). I
- would be glad to fly a 109 pilot who can out turn my
- Yak3 or La7, if they are around.
-
- Getting back to the P39, she's too porked at this
- time to make any rational performance opinions, but
- she most certainly turns better than she ever has in
- the past, is much more stable, holds more E and the
- 37mm cannon is much more accurate now. She will be
- worked. Be sure.


F4 should have better turn rate and turn radius than Yak3. not much but there should be a difference. Normally you should be able to outturn the Yak3 with F4 also because it was much more docile as a plane. Yak3 with its high tapered wing spun very easily (modeled to some degree in FB), it had a slightly higher stall speed (therefore the turn radius was bigger) and high torque for it's weight of the plane (seen in difference in turn times) it was quite handful to fly. It is not in FB though.

G2 should be able to outturn P-39 (at least the variants we have in the game, N&Q), but once again the difference was not big. Basically P-39 had the same turn characteristic with 109G with MW-50, slightly better than K4.



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 10/24/0312:21PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:20 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Buzz_25th wrote:
-- My info says the Yak3 turned in 18 sec. The Yak9 in
-- 16-17 sec.
-
-
- Object viewer says that Yak9 turns in 16-18 sec. Now
- you have to understand that this is a function of
- fuel load. At full fuel load and ammo it turns in 18
- sec. In similar conditions F4 turns also in 18 sec.
- A loaded G2 turns in 19.5 sec, and a Yak3 turns in
- 18.5-19.5 sec depending on the side of the turn.
-
-
- <center> <img
- src="http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-m
- ain.jpg"> </center>



This is for LA Series but as long we dont have transparent ingame Data there is no proof for inaccuracy .

http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html
(Exist such Data for Yak Series ?)

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:35 PM
Maybe we need to seperate real life and in-game performance. I usually refer to in-game performance and although the F4 and G2 can hang with the Yak3, the objects viewer paints a slightly different picture. That's my only point.

Most Ace 109 pilots are not turn-fighters but Energy fighters, as has been stated. There are excellent turning 109 pilots, but none that I have found that can't be beaten with the LA7 or Yak3, flown correctly. I'm only speaking from personal experience and from flying the best HyperLobby and UBI has to offer, everyday.

Others mileage may vary, but I excel at pushing every plane in this game to it's extreme limits and beyond. Lotsa practice, stick time and flying the best I can find everyday has proved invaluable.

I've written this before, but I've gotten matchups down to a rock, paper, scissors mentality. All you have to do is know which planes beat which and then you do it. After that, you get a lesser plane and whup him in that, just so he doesn't start the "Wah, you only fly an LA7" whine./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:40 PM
Also, having flown the F4 and G2 against the best Yak pilots, I was amazed at how easily those two hang with a Yak3. However, no matter how good u are in a 109, an equivalent pilot in a Yak3 should win the turn battle, 9 out of 10 times, against the 109.

And if that don't work, the LA7 will surely top any 109, hands-down, when properly flown. It's extremely easy to avoid B and Z and eventually the 109 pilot gets impatient and forces the issue, thus giving the LA7 the advantage. Plus, about 75-80% of LW pilots are attempting to out turn an LA7 below 2500m. Sorry, ain't gonna happen./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:17 PM
SlickStick wrote:
- Also, having flown the F4 and G2 against the best
- Yak pilots, I was amazed at how easily those two
- hang with a Yak3. However, no matter how good u are
- in a 109, an equivalent pilot in a Yak3 should win
- the turn battle, 9 out of 10 times, against the 109.
-
- And if that don't work, the LA7 will surely top any
- 109, hands-down, when properly flown. It's
- extremely easy to avoid B and Z and eventually the
- 109 pilot gets impatient and forces the issue, thus
- giving the LA7 the advantage. Plus, about 75-80% of
- LW pilots are attempting to out turn an LA7 below
- 2500m. Sorry, ain't gonna happen./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif -
- _______________________________________
- çk?¯kT 2003**

For ingame Performance.

La7 E miracle is nothing vs P39 E miracle when flown right .)

And turnfighting yaks is only for fun not for score .

And who is stupid enough to turnfight a yak when you need to down it ? And that 9 out of 10 times is wrong must be 10 out of 10 times in late models.

Turnfighting in late LW Fighters is nonsense special even when you get the kill it got you low and slow rdy to be bounced by next vvs plane . Not a nice situation.


Regards,
Hyperion

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:53 PM
Hyperion wrote: "And who is stupid enough to turnfight a yak when you need to down it ? And that 9 out of 10 times is wrong must be 10 out of 10 times in late models.

Turnfighting in late LW Fighters is nonsense special even when you get the kill it got you low and slow rdy to be bounced by next vvs plane . Not a nice situation."

Copy that, Hyperion.

The P39 is in that same boat. You'll get the first one fine, but she's too slow at accelerating to regain E in time to stop that next VVS plane, once you get too low and too slow./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

My philosophy is never send a Yak or a P39 to do the job of an LA7./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Yes, she's a bit of a miracle worker, too, like the P39, but the LA7 seems closer to real life at his time than the P39. My .02.

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çk?¯kT 2003**

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:09 PM
Every time you fly an La7 God kills a puppy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:21 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- G2 should be able to outturn P-39 (at least the
- variants we have in the game, N&Q), but once again
- the difference was not big. Basically P-39 had the
- same turn characteristic with 109G with MW-50,
- slightly better than K4.

Neither the F nor the G will turn inside the P-39, however. The P-39N and Q both could turn in a much smaller circle, around 780 feet.

And the F and G both had a tendancy to snap roll in high-g turns.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:30 PM
"no problems to outturn a 109F4 (which is one of the ultimate dogfighters). "

Oh, is that what makes an ultimate dogfighter?

S!
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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:20 AM
Recon_609IAP wrote:
- "no problems to outturn a 109F4 (which is one of the
- ultimate dogfighters). "

For some it seems that are mostly the guys that fly la7 and p39s & yaks .) When it doesnt turn its useless for them .

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:28 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-- G2 should be able to outturn P-39 (at least the
-- variants we have in the game, N&Q), but once again
-- the difference was not big. Basically P-39 had the
-- same turn characteristic with 109G with MW-50,
-- slightly better than K4.
-
- Neither the F nor the G will turn inside the P-39,
- however. The P-39N and Q both could turn in a much
- smaller circle, around 780 feet.
-
- And the F and G both had a tendancy to snap roll in
- high-g turns.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp

Good to have you here .)

What is the slowest speed possible combined with bank level on P39N1 model ? With full flaps it should be around 150 km/h on level flight but dont know if the banking level wouldnt reduce the lift so much that the speed needs to be higher with increasing bank levels.

Regards,
Hyperion

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:01 AM
SkyChimp wrote:

-
- And the F and G both had a tendancy to snap roll in
- high-g turns.

I had never heard that SC. I thought the Fs especially where very predicatable in maneuvers. Was this only at certain speeds?

Buzz_25th
10-25-2003, 01:03 AM
I didn't use the Object Viewer for my info. I never do.

It came from the book "Yakovlev's Piston-Engine Fighters" by Vefim Gordon and Dmitriy Khazanov.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:12 AM
funny how i can out turn all 109's in a p-39, take a lead & blow them away with 1 well placed canon shot. lol
109's are all junk.

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:28 AM
Jaws2002 wrote: "Every time you fly an La7 God kills a puppy." /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hehe, but for every kill I get in an LA7, I make sure to get two kills flying a combination of FWs, 109s, yes, I fly the 109, P39s, LaGGs and Hurricanes./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I love the Hurricane on early war servers. Late-war can be done 1 vs 1 with allot of finesse, but more bogies than that and its too low, too slow, she go blow./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 01:32 AM
P39, P39, wherefore art thou, P39?

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Message Edited on 10/24/0308:37PM by SlickStick