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View Full Version : MUzzle flashehs are NOT overmodelled!



Platypus_1.JaVA
05-22-2004, 02:35 AM
Look at this:

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/14-3-2002-9-6-B-25_Mitchell_test_firing.jpg

Looks like maddox got it right after all?

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-22-2004, 02:35 AM
Look at this:

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/14-3-2002-9-6-B-25_Mitchell_test_firing.jpg

Looks like maddox got it right after all?

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

Fennec_P
05-22-2004, 02:42 AM
Size, maybe.

But notice how brief the flashes are. They are so brief, that only half the guns in this photo have a visible flash. The others are in-between flashes.

That is what needs to be modelled in FB, as opposed to the continuous sheet of flame that currently comes out of the barrels.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/urban.jpg

reload2000
05-22-2004, 02:56 AM
Nahh, still to big in this game. You guys wanna see really good muzzle flashes then play B-17'2 The Mighty 8th. Very good game. FMs arent grea but they got the props and muzzle flashes looking good.

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RocketDog
05-22-2004, 03:07 AM
The photograph looks like it was taken at night. The issue is what you would see in daylight.

Regards,

RocketDog.

kubanloewe
05-22-2004, 03:13 AM
at daylight and inflight you see nearly nothing !

http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen

JG27_Arklight
05-22-2004, 03:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kubanloewe:
at daylight and inflight you see nearly nothing !

http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The .50 cal I fired a few years back had a visible flash during the day but certainly not to the extent in this game.

And the MK108 flash in this game is just plain STUPID.

Ark

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NegativeGee
05-22-2004, 03:42 AM
The muzzle flashes are not wrong, at least by the question they answer from the designers point of view.

"We can only have one type of muzzle flash for all lighting conditions in this game"

So they went with one that works for the lowest lighting conditions.


Off course, that means during daylight conditions (which most of use fly in) they are far to visible.

Its all a matter of perspective http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

lindyman
05-22-2004, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RocketDog:
The photograph looks like it was taken at night. The issue is what you would see in daylight.

Regards,

RocketDog.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither the gun, nor the gunpoweder, knows what time of day it is. The flashes are always the same size. They're also always the same brightness.

The problem is one of contrast. The difference in brightness in the middle of the night, and at noon on a sunny day is so much greater than a monitor can recreate.

Without varying the brightness of the flash in the game, it will either look bleak or bright, depending on when you look at it.

I can understand why they don't want to take that into account, even though it does lead to some unfortunate effects.
_
/Bjorn.

Friendly_flyer
05-22-2004, 04:09 AM
Really cool picture, though.

Fly friendly!

Petter Bøckman
Norway

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-22-2004, 04:29 AM
This picture was taken when test-firing the machine guns. I imagine that they would have a bullseye of some kind in front of the aircraft and fired the machine guns with only a few bullets for each gun. (like they did in the P-40 in Pearl harbor, the movie) so they could see if their machine guns where adjusted properly. I doubt they would test their guns at night. Because of the darkness, it would be more difficult to see the hits and adjust the guns. Overall servicing and maintenance would be fatr more difficult of course.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

pacettid
05-22-2004, 04:30 AM
This thread has been done to death...give it a rest...starting to remind me of 'chinese water torture'...as far as I am concerned muzzle flashes, as currently modeled, look like they came right out of a comic strip, but the developer has said, ad nauseum, that they are note going to recode the sim.

All the best, Don

WUAF_Badsight
05-22-2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Look at this:

Looks like maddox got it right after all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

are you insane ?

do you realise anything about still camera shots of gunfire at all ?

that proves nothing

WUAF_Badsight
05-22-2004, 04:59 AM
what the hell do you see in the red circle ???!?!?!?!?!?!?!

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Badsight/14-3-2002-9-6-B-25_Mitchell_test_firing.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
05-22-2004, 05:01 AM
this is NOT REALISTIC !

http://www.imageshack.us/img2/3816/FlashKometFly4.jpg

CaptainGelo
05-22-2004, 05:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
this is _NOT REALISTIC !_

http://www.imageshack.us/img2/3816/FlashKometFly4.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.giflol

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http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
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Athosd
05-22-2004, 05:36 AM
Hmmmm - there are quite a few cases on the ground and the amount of smoke (yes even smokeless explosive produces quite a lot) indicates a fair bit of firing.

After all the discussion on this topic I'm surprised the topic poster feels confident enough to produce a single picture as a proof.

Cheers

Athos

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-22-2004, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
what the hell do you see in the red circle ???!?!?!?!?!?!?!

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Badsight/14-3-2002-9-6-B-25_Mitchell_test_firing.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Photograph's show only one single moment in time. Only one tiny piece of a second is shown. Muzzle flashes don't occur continously since there is a little of time between two bullets, leaving the gun. So, in your red circle we see the dying-out of a muzzle flash or, the starting of a new one. Look above the aircraft where the top-turret fires or, look at the lower-side gun. Those flashes are pretty big.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

Aeronautico
05-22-2004, 06:33 AM
Yeah but... guys.

What you see is what THE FILM captured, not our own eyes, whose sensitivity to light is completely different!
On film, en over-exposed area (such as the muzzle flash), tend to be much brighter (therefore bigger) than what we perceive.

I don't know how to say it in English, but human eyes have a much greater "exposure latitude" than any film: it means that on film the dark areas will be much darker, and the bright areas much brighter than what we actually see (we are able to see much more details in the above mentioned areas).

Simply, making assumptions based over still and movie pictures is misleading.


Aero

--------------------
Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot

[This message was edited by Aeronautico on Sat May 22 2004 at 05:43 AM.]

[This message was edited by Aeronautico on Sat May 22 2004 at 05:49 AM.]

BBB_Hyperion
05-22-2004, 06:41 AM
When you Photograph something with old fashioned film or Guncam Material it gets a shift into infrared there might be flashes etc that would never be seen by the human eye but camera would.

This means when you look at old films this infrared frequencies show and gives the impression of a big muzzle flash. In realty it might be 1/3 or lower than that depends on gunpowder as well.

Regards,
Hyperion

LeadSpitter_
05-22-2004, 07:00 AM
notice its a night photo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif look at a day photo lol at the komet

the sturmovik is the only aircraft that should have the huge muzzle flashs in the day it was from the powder they used

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

buz13
05-22-2004, 07:01 AM
I have fired 50 cal. and 40MM...and also watched them being fired from close range...a few yards. In the daylight the flashes are hardly visible....smoke is. In the dark the flashes are very visible. We are seeing what you would see in the dark......And it is true that the camera film will catch flashes during the day that the human I will not see.

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-22-2004, 08:18 AM
Damn, can maddox be wrong after all? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



*AHUM* Troll http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

tsisqua
05-22-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
this is _NOT REALISTIC !_

Ow, you hurt my ears.

Come on, one of the features that makes FB cool is all the night stuff, the plane lights (landing and nav), the floods, and the night time muzzle flashes. Apparently, the game engine is limited to one way or the other, at least according to 1C. If they reduce the daytime flashes, the night flashes will disappear. It will stay the way that it is in FB, but with all the code being reworked for PF, we may see better flashes implemented there. I'd say that the PF forum is the place to be lobbying for this while the game is still under the knife, so to speak.

~S~
Tsisqua

plumps_
05-22-2004, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Platypus_1.JaVA :
Photograph's show only one single moment in time. Only one tiny piece of a second is shown. Muzzle flashes don't occur continously since there is a little of time between two bullets, leaving the gun. So, in your red circle we see the dying-out of a muzzle flash or, the starting of a new one. Look above the aircraft where the top-turret fires or, look at the lower-side gun. Those flashes are pretty big.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, you don't seem too know too much about photography. Exposure time can vary from 1/1000 second or even shorter to several hours.

I'll try to analyze what I (an amateur photographer) see on the picture (maybe I don't find all the right words as English is not my first language):

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/14-3-2002-9-6-B-25_Mitchell_test_firing.jpg

The background is mostly dark while the foreground (see the ground to the left) is very bright, getting darker fast the further away the ground is from the source of light. The gleam of the metall skin shows that the main source of light is rather small, low and close to the camera. Now look at the shadows that the aircraft's wheels are casting onto the ground. These are caused by a lamp or more probably by a flashlight that was placed to the left of the camera. (The shadows' vanishing points are to the right of the picture's vanishing point.)

So now we know that the main source of light is artificial and the picture was taken in the darkness. The brighter spots around the aircraft are smoke (probably from the guns) that is illuminated by the photographer's flash.

About the exposure time: As a flashlight is being used it could be rather short. But in the 40's they didn't have the synchronized electronic flashes we use nowadays. So they had to open the camera's shutter, release the flash, then close the shutter. The time between opening and closing can be quite long. On the picture we see the lines which the tracers have left on the film. I'm able to discern 7 lines. All the visible barrels of .50 guns have a tracer line which means that they were all photographed while they were firing. This also means that you see their muzzle flashes on the picture. And there are muzzle flashes near all the .50 barrels, but very small ones. Maybe we see almost their 'daylight size' on the picture as it's also illuminated by a flashlight which hides the muzzle flashes by reducing the overall contrast.

But there also are some bigger flashes on the upper side and near one of the lower guns. And this is the point where I need more information. Are these guns different? Do they use different ammo?

My guess about the big muzzle 'flash' near the lower left gun: It's not a flash at all but smoke being ejected from the barrel and illuminated by the photographer's flashlight. You don't see the same phenomenon near the other barrels as they were firing while the camera's shutter was opened without a flashlight illuminating the scene. And smoke is not a source of light.

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

[This message was edited by plumps_ on Sat May 22 2004 at 11:18 AM.]

DuxCorvan
05-22-2004, 11:48 AM
Good point, Plumps.

I was thinkin' the same. The bigger lights are not muzzle flashes at all, but dense smoke reflecting a very bright light. The muzzle flashes are just in the tip of the gun barrels, and are pretty tiny, even in that dark enviroment -although flash light can also make them less conspicuous.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

DuxCorvan
05-22-2004, 12:05 PM
Oleg's version: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/B25guns2.jpg

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

plumps_
05-22-2004, 12:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Platypus_1.JaVA :
I doubt they would test their guns at night. Because of the darkness, it would be more difficult to see the hits and adjust the guns. Overall servicing and maintenance would be fatr more difficult of course.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
During daylight these aircraft had to fly. Especially in winter the daylight time is very short and it becomes dark very early. Why shouldn't the ground crews use the night time to do the maintenance work when the planes were actually at their bases? To see the firing results you would go to the target and watch the hit pattern from close distance. Yes, they did have electrical light in the 40s.

And, who knows, this may have been just an arrangement for the photographer to get an impressive night time firing picture with tracers.

-----------------------------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Aaron_GT
05-22-2004, 03:02 PM
"I don't know how to say it in English, but human eyes have a much greater "exposure latitude" than any film: it means that on film the dark areas will be much darker, and the bright areas much brighter than what we actually see (we are able to see much more details in the above mentioned areas)."

It also depends on whether or not your eyes are dark adapted at the time. The human eye has much greater persistence of vision than high speed film and so would tend to see larger flashes than high speed film especially if dark adapted. In daylight, the persistence of vision is still there, but the sensitivity to light is very much different. Basically you can't draw too many conclusions from film.

mortoma
05-22-2004, 03:22 PM
None of this really matters as it's been said that the muzzle flash will not change in FB. The game engine code has the flash too deeply imbedded to change it now. They would practically have to rewrite the game code.

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-22-2004, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Oleg's version: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/B25guns2.jpg

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

Bobsqueek
05-22-2004, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
notice its a night photo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif look at a day photo lol at the komet

the sturmovik is the only aircraft that should have the huge muzzle flashs in the day it was from the powder they used

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo

lets refer back to the name of this sim, IL-2 sturmovik this is the plane the game was built around, and thats how it was coded in the beginning, to have flashes that fitted the IL2

now times have changed and i think that the flashes should be toned down, if not in FB or PF, then BoB

CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

worr
05-22-2004, 05:10 PM
http://www.imageshack.us/img2/3816/FlashKometFly4.jpg

LOL! My eyes!

WUAF wins on points on this one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Worr, out

I16fan
05-22-2004, 05:40 PM
i dont know if i think realistic, but i have noticed that if i do not clean my rifle before i shoot, i will get a big muzzle flash, and that rifle cal is 6,5mm, so maybe it depended a little on how clean the gun barrels were?

i might be totally wrong!

MEGILE
05-22-2004, 06:00 PM
http://www.uploadimages.net/images/426929b25.jpg

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/14-3-2002-9-6-B-25_Mitchell_test_firing.jpg

I Thought a comparative picture would help.. make of it what you want
its not exactly like DuxCorvan would have you believe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Taylortony
05-22-2004, 06:30 PM
I do always find this topic amusing as the most experience 99.999999% of you will of had in seeing muzzle flash is either watching John Wayne on the Telly or judging it against another game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I have seen Jaguars, Phantoms, Ginos and the like close up ground straffing on a range and you do see a fair bit of flash, funnily enough its sort of all back to front, you see the gun flash then here the gun winding then hear the guns firing but then I have not been strapped in the cockpit to tell u what you see from the sharp end http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif