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Existentialmeme
07-07-2017, 07:35 AM
Hi guy,

So we all know that Shinobi is really trash after the kick nerf. Now kicks takes so much stamina and still has the large potential of being punished or simply trade damage.
Another problem with shinobi is that all his attacks are really easy to punish, you almost never see any Shinobi use the ranged attacks/grabs because of the drag down punish.

With so many punish to his moves plus his nonexistent health pool, he became one with the trash.

So heres my suggestion to make him a bit viable:

For a hero who's special thing is ranged, his ranged are sh!t... you can parry or counter gb his ranged and land a free hit.

I think the parrying Ranged attack should not pull Shinobi to the ground, but only pull him closer to his opponent, allowing the opponent to gain control of the fight once again without meaning the (almost) certain death of Shinobi
The ranged grab will pull him to the ground for sure because of the combo after a successful grab.

Please comment of what you think!

kweassa1
07-07-2017, 08:11 AM
But none of what you said is true.

The "trashy" things you mention only apply to "shin00bies" who play like trash in the first place -- you know, those who can't block, dodge, parry, deflect worth a dang with the shib's short reflex guard, so they think that they can just stay far, far away from the opponents, and by doing so limit their own possible options... and just resort to kick-heavy, kick-heavy, kick-heavy, low stamina = run away, full stamina = close in and repeat kick-heavy, kick-heavy.. ad infinitum.

To such shin00bs that basically don't have anything else than kiting and poking from far, and then just spamming kick, and then kiting again...sure, the shin0bi would seem like trash after the nerf.

But then again, to low-skilled players, ANY CLASS is trash.

C00tBAjenkins
07-07-2017, 08:59 AM
You know that at range even with the pull down most if not all players cannot close the gap fast enough to punish that. So really its actually fairly safe. If it pulled closer it might break him the recovery might guarantee gb and that would be worse. I've seen good players with then and they seem to do very well as is.

Existentialmeme
07-07-2017, 01:24 PM
But none of what you said is true.

The "trashy" things you mention only apply to "shin00bies" who play like trash in the first place -- you know, those who can't block, dodge, parry, deflect worth a dang with the shib's short reflex guard, so they think that they can just stay far, far away from the opponents, and by doing so limit their own possible options... and just resort to kick-heavy, kick-heavy, kick-heavy, low stamina = run away, full stamina = close in and repeat kick-heavy, kick-heavy.. ad infinitum.

To such shin00bs that basically don't have anything else than kiting and poking from far, and then just spamming kick, and then kiting again...sure, the shin0bi would seem like trash after the nerf.

But then again, to low-skilled players, ANY CLASS is trash.

Well then, please enlighten with how you play Shinobi :)

And how is it that none of what I said is true? Is the kick not easy to dodge? is the ranged not easy to counter grab and parry?

I'm not liking your condescending attitude. If you want to provide some concrete feedback instead of calling people noob, you're welcome to do so

Existentialmeme
07-07-2017, 01:47 PM
You know that at range even with the pull down most if not all players cannot close the gap fast enough to punish that. So really its actually fairly safe. If it pulled closer it might break him the recovery might guarantee gb and that would be worse. I've seen good players with then and they seem to do very well as is.

True true, I haven't experienced much with the fully charged ranged, but I have no problem closing the gap.
And a lot of shinobi's combos and mixups have ranged attack/grabs, which people can easily counter and grab you down to right next to them

MasterChiefPON
07-07-2017, 02:31 PM
Here are my toughts:

Ranged attacks are not hard to counter but at certain range the Shinobi falls to floor far enough for some characters to not be able to punish it, it'd be unfair if they'd just bring the Shinobi closer because he'd dodge backwards and there's the gap again, you can't catch him if he doesn't want to, so I think they are punishable enough as they are now.

Second, I don't think Shinobi's moves are easily punishable because his recovery from everything is insanely fast. As someone said, Shinobi can gb you when recovering from falling to the ground because you were "punishing" him for his ranged attacks. A lot of moves recover fast enough for them to block or parry your "punish".

Then, I've come up with Shinobi's so hard to punish because everytime they land an attack they just backflip out of range and it's uninterruptable so I can't do anything about it and if I try to hit them sometimes I eat a ranged gb while recovering from my attack. I have to try to catch them when they come closer and attack before they do or parry something and punish.

I think what makes Shinobi fair is that he has the least amount of health and when you punish you punish, so maybe you couldn't catch him several times because his uninterruptability but you don't need to catch him everytime. Also he has a harder time blocking because his guard goes very fast.

I think if you want to buff Shinobi's health it would be fair to tone down everything being untinterruptable because that's too hard to punish.

Finally, I think the kick nerf was needed because it was pretty strong being uninterruptable, very fast, making a 50/50 by letting him gb out of double dodge and with priority over all other unblockables. Because they can't gb as fast as before from double dodge and you can easily dodge it backwards, if you dodge it everytime nothing will hit you and it's pretty easy now because you don't have to worry about gb and you can dodge backwards after the double dodge. As I said, if they buff all these things at least they need tone down that of using their uninterruptability to get away.

Trunks.GT
07-07-2017, 02:57 PM
Shinobi is fine as is.
The class has been balanced and in the hands of a semi-decent player lethal in 1v1's and a absolute pain in 4v4 unless you can get clean hit (normally when they are focusing on someone else).

Existentialmeme
07-07-2017, 02:58 PM
Here are my toughts:

Ranged attacks are not hard to counter but at certain range the Shinobi falls to floor far enough for some characters to not be able to punish it, it'd be unfair if they'd just bring the Shinobi closer because he'd dodge backwards and there's the gap again, you can't catch him if he doesn't want to, so I think they are punishable enough as they are now.

Second, I don't think Shinobi's moves are easily punishable because his recovery from everything is insanely fast. As someone said, Shinobi can gb you when recovering from falling to the ground because you were "punishing" him for his ranged attacks. A lot of moves recover fast enough for them to block or parry your "punish".

Then, I've come up with Shinobi's so hard to punish because everytime they land an attack they just backflip out of range and it's uninterruptable so I can't do anything about it and if I try to hit them sometimes I eat a ranged gb while recovering from my attack. I have to try to catch them when they come closer and attack before they do or parry something and punish.

I think what makes Shinobi fair is that he has the least amount of health and when you punish you punish, so maybe you couldn't catch him several times because his uninterruptability but you don't need to catch him everytime. Also he has a harder time blocking because his guard goes very fast.

I think if you want to buff Shinobi's health it would be fair to tone down everything being untinterruptable because that's too hard to punish.

Finally, I think the kick nerf was needed because it was pretty strong being uninterruptable, very fast, making a 50/50 by letting him gb out of double dodge and with priority over all other unblockables. Because they can't gb as fast as before from double dodge and you can easily dodge it backwards, if you dodge it everytime nothing will hit you and it's pretty easy now because you don't have to worry about gb and you can dodge backwards after the double dodge. As I said, if they buff all these things at least they need tone down that of using their uninterruptability to get away.

Thanks for the reply, it all makes sense, guess I just need more practice with Shinobi then

MasterChiefPON
07-07-2017, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the reply, it all makes sense, guess I just need more practice with Shinobi then

They are just my words, maybe I'm wrong :)
I think Shinobi is a case where if you make mistakes you get punished very very hard for it and if you play it safe it's kind of hard to punish you for, especially for some characters. I think it shouldn't be like that, it's ok for everyone having strenghts and weaknesses but I think they should be more balanced.

Gray360UK
07-07-2017, 07:36 PM
his light spam is as bad as pre-nerf PK.

I was thinking exactly that as I got light spammed to death by a Shinobi multiple times last night. I tried matching guard and for me it was impossible (I'm sure some people can do it). Important to note that the second light on a Shinobi is guaranteed and that was never a thing with the PK. I know PKs second light was so fast it was considered as good as guaranteed, but Shinobis actually is.

Existentialmeme
07-07-2017, 07:56 PM
I was thinking exactly that as I got light spammed to death by a Shinobi multiple times last night. I tried matching guard and for me it was impossible (I'm sure some people can do it). Important to note that the second light on a Shinobi is guaranteed and that was never a thing with the PK. I know PKs second light was so fast it was considered as good as guaranteed, but Shinobis actually is.

You can parry PK and Shinobi's light on reaction fairly easily actually

Gray360UK
07-07-2017, 08:00 PM
You can parry PK and Shinobi's light on reaction fairly easily actually

Who is the 'you' that you are referring to? You needed to be here 5 months ago if you want to have the 'reacting to PK lights' argument, you wouldn't have come close to winning. If you think Shinoobi / Centurion hate is bad now, it has nothing on PK light hate. Shinobi is just as bad and if you don't avoid the first there's nothing you can do about the 2nd.

Existentialmeme
07-07-2017, 08:31 PM
Who is the 'you' that you are referring to? You needed to be here 5 months ago if you want to have the 'reacting to PK lights' argument, you wouldn't have come close to winning. If you think Shinoobi / Centurion hate is bad now, it has nothing on PK light hate. Shinobi is just as bad and if you don't avoid the first there's nothing you can do about the 2nd.

I've been here since open beta thank you very much. I bump into light spamming PK every once in a while, it's actually harder to block light spams than to parry it in my opinion.

There's nothing you can do about the 2nd because the second light in guaranteed.

And the "you" is referring to anyone who has trouble with light spams. :)

MasterChiefPON
07-07-2017, 08:59 PM
I was thinking exactly that as I got light spammed to death by a Shinobi multiple times last night. I tried matching guard and for me it was impossible (I'm sure some people can do it). Important to note that the second light on a Shinobi is guaranteed and that was never a thing with the PK. I know PKs second light was so fast it was considered as good as guaranteed, but Shinobis actually is.

I think that when you find a Shinobi light spamming you, since you play Pk, after they attack hit you, you should inmediately use your zone attack or light them too, some of them are so focused on pressing RB and if you hit them whit something fast they don't block it. Abuse your zone and mix it with lights if they are light spamming you, I think that should give them a taste.

Gray360UK
07-07-2017, 10:12 PM
I think that when you find a Shinobi light spamming you, since you play Pk, after they attack hit you, you should inmediately use your zone attack or light them too, some of them are so focused on pressing RB and if you hit them whit something fast they don't block it. Abuse your zone and mix it with lights if they are light spamming you, I think that should give them a taste.

I was on my Nobushi when I was having trouble last night. I wouldn't really say I play PK anymore, I mean, it''s my highest hero sure, but she is one of about 5 or 6 characters I play on a regular basis (especially when I have the Complete Domination order, like I do now) :)

If I was on my PK, I don't think I would have had the same trouble. The Shinobi would be coming here to complain about me ;)

MasterChiefPON
07-07-2017, 10:25 PM
I was on my Nobushi when I was having trouble last night. I wouldn't really say I play PK anymore, I mean, it''s my highest hero sure, but she is one of about 5 or 6 characters I play on a regular basis (especially when I have the Complete Domination order, like I do now) :)

If I was on my PK, I don't think I would have had the same trouble. The Shinobi would be coming here to complain about me ;)

Nice, I don't really play my main much, I'm playing just a bit of everything to keep things interesting. If you are on Pk show them who real light and zone spammimg boss is.