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View Full Version : What Do You Think About The Development Of AC's Core Pillars In Origins?



Abelzorus-Prime
07-06-2017, 11:49 PM
Core Pillars:

Social Stealth

Navigation

Combat

Are you happy with the development in these 3 fields? Are you disappointed? What would you like to see or be improved upon?

Kiroku
07-07-2017, 12:31 AM
The only thing I am still missing so far and still hope that some day they will implement it is a "FEAR SYSTEM" like in the Ezio collection. Enemies see their mates getting killed one by one and run for their lives. Regardless if you kill them sneaky and they notice like "oh im alone? where is everyone? hello? someone?" or in a real fight face to face. That would be great. And people then talking about a mysterious assassin being around seeking for justice.

Copy pastet this from another Thread where I posted it.

Back to your 3 "Pillars"

About the Combat: Some various kill animations would be cool. Maybe there will be more when they finished the game. A better dodge system with a roll maybe? A little bit like AC3 where Connor rolls and hits his axe in the back of an enemy. Or just to dodge. And I want to see daggers one can fight with. dual wield would be awesome! And dual swords!

Social Stealth: Looks good so far. But need to play it by myself to give an exact statement. Would be nice that if you would run away from an enemy around the corner you could hide there for a second and right before he comes around you can kill him with the hidden blade. Like a chase stealth kill or something.

Navigation: What do you mean by that exactly? Walking and exploring through the world? It looks fluid for now. I just hope the "climbing up somewhere when you actually wanted to go another way" finally stops. Its sooo annoying that your character sometimes do the exact opposite of what you actually want. And jumping off small heights should be fluid too.

SixKeys
07-07-2017, 03:05 AM
My major disappointment is the lack of social stealth in this game. I understand the devs' reasoning why they couldn't make it work, but I'll still miss it. My only hope is that the next game will bring it back revamped and better than ever.

Parkour is still too weightless and unrealistic for me. I think this could be easily fixed by adding more foot-/handholds and getting rid of the superhuman jumps. Horses seem better than in previous games, being able to easily trot over any kind of terrain.

I didn't like the feel of heavy weapons in the gladiator arena demo. It felt sluggish and unresponsive. I know heavy weapons are supposed to make you slower, but in the demo it wasn't always clear whether it was so unwieldy because the animations were slow or because the controls weren't responding to player commands. Dodging needs to be less wide and some of the animations still need tweaking. Otherwise I think combat is heading in the right direction.

ohoni
07-07-2017, 06:52 AM
The game does seem a bit too "small town, rural" for an AC game, Assassin's Creed has always thrived in the urban environment. We've been promised cities, but they seem like they might be as small a part of the game as they were in Black Flag, which would be sad. Handling large crowd and running across rooftops situations is an essential part of the AC brand, and climbing random cliffs is nowhere close to that. That's Farcry material.

I'm also disapointed in how they've massively nerfed the combat, taking away the fluidity and realism in favor of button mashing swing-spam and exaggerated dodge and stun moves. it's just cartoony and not at all what I look for in an Assassin's Creed game. I'm not saying that other recent ACs did it perfectly, but at least they weren't this far off the mark. Hopefully the next AC will overhaul the combat system entirely.

As for stealth, apparently you can't stealth kill enemies if they are too high level, so stealth is a joke now unless you're playing exactly the areas the devs intend you to be at that moment. I was initially excited about the ideal of AC: Origins when it was first hyped, but the more details emerge, the more I wonder if the people making it even like Assassin's Creed.

notfunnybro
07-07-2017, 12:57 PM
Stealth I really don't know much about how stealth has improved or changed besides social stealth being removed which I wouldn't really call an improvement.

Navigation The new vehicles like horses, camels, and chariots are cool. I haven't experienced the new controls so I can't say much about how it feels to run and climb but he makes some really crazy jumps when climbing and it just seems like it doesn't have weight, it looks too effortless. Maybe some kind of grappling hook should be used for climbs that would require ridiculous vertical leaps, not shooting off his arm like syndicate but just something he throws up to climb. I hope he uses actual rock climbing techniques and doesn't hold onto imaginary rocks.

Combat It looks challenging. Maybe it doesn't look as pretty but if it's more fun, it's a step in the right direction. I would like to see enemies blocking, dodging, parrying more. A lot of the time it looks like they just let you hit them. The enemies seem more aggressive which is good but I hope they can defend themselves well too. I wish the way levels worked was that a low level enemy has low stats like strength, speed, stamina, low reaction times, bad armor and weapons, etc. and the higher level enemies are really fast and strong and don't get tired easily and can dodge your attacks quickly and have better weapons and armor and maybe even have better fighting techniques, and this would make it so high level enemies will always be challenging regardless of your level and weapons and armor. Fighting a level 40 when you're at 40 too shouldn't be exactly like fighting a level 10 when your're at 10 too. Fighting a group of 4 level 50 enemies should be super challenging whereas fighting a group of 4 level 5 enemies should be kinda easy. I don't know what the combat is actually like but I hope it's not just about finding legendary weapons, I hope it requires a lot of skill.

cawatrooper9
07-07-2017, 02:57 PM
Social Stealth: Well, we don't really have it, at least as far as we can tell. The other forms of stealth seem alright- guards definitely seem a little more reactive (at least in my playthroughs) without being the Dr. Manhatten omniscent beings that they were in ACIII and Unity- so that's good!

Navigation: Personally, I love it. Freerunning feels good. Climbing feels great. Horses feel surprising fun to control. And boating feels awesome.
Not to mention swimming. I love the underwater sections, and I really hope that they don't go to waste in the story.

Combat: Biggest gripe right now is the hidden blade being mapped to Triangle/Y. I kept up messing up stealth kills because of that. Having an attack button mapped to the right trigger also meant that I'd often take a big melee swing or two at some townspeople on accident every time I tried to freerun in a crows.
But those are just mapping issues, that I'll probably either get used to or adjust.
As far as actual combat- I think it plays much better than it looks right now. I had a blast with combat, and actually tried more often than not to mess up stealth just to get a feel for it.

I've said before that combat typically doesn't feel nearly as much like Dark Souls as it looks. The only time I really get a Dark Souls vibe is when fighting an enemy that is significantly stronger than me, or in the Arena. But even then, it's fun.

For instance, at one point, I had a standoff with a highly leveled enemy, and it felt like the Mountain v Viper fight in Game of Thrones. It was a really cool moment, and I'd go so far to say it was hands down the most fun I've had in open combat in the entire series. The Arena stuff was actually a big hit, and many of the players would gather around, watch, and pass the controller as we tried to beat it.

Bastiaen
07-10-2017, 05:12 PM
I'm just wondering whatever happened to hiding in plain sight! I mean, I know he starts the order, but shouldn't we at least be able to work with the tenants he creates?

crusader_prophet
07-10-2017, 08:10 PM
Someone said AC used to have realism in combat? Dear lord, what AC games have I been playing until now where I single handedly kill dozens of brutes, archers, agiles and pawns in one single fight, all while I'm magnetically drawn into them from 50ft away when they attack me even if I'm not facing them.

notfunnybro
07-11-2017, 08:41 AM
Someone said AC used to have realism in combat? Dear lord, what AC games have I been playing until now where I single handedly kill dozens of brutes, archers, agiles and pawns in one single fight, all while I'm magnetically drawn into them from 50ft away when they attack me even if I'm not facing them.

I think AC1 had the most realism, the others not so much. I'd like to see combat be more realistic

BananaBlighter
07-11-2017, 11:40 AM
Someone said AC used to have realism in combat? Dear lord, what AC games have I been playing until now where I single handedly kill dozens of brutes, archers, agiles and pawns in one single fight, all while I'm magnetically drawn into them from 50ft away when they attack me even if I'm not facing them.

Well I think they were really referring to the animation. I mean, discounting Syndicate (though even its combat still looks better than Origins), AC has always had pretty believable animations, in that the movements were fluid and followed appropriate physics. Yes maybe it isn't realistic that one person can plough through 50 guards, but that can simply be excused with 'extreme skill' from the assassin, and 'extreme cowardice' from the guards. Like with the parkour, the huge climb leaps that Arno can do are certainly unrealistic, but they follow good physics, and can simply be excused with 'extreme strength' from Arno (though the parkour animations have always been a bit inconsistent and can often suffer from the same stiffness as Origins' combat).

The problem with the animation in Origins is that it looks far more rigid and gamey, like Dark Souls. I mean have you seen the way Bayek and his enemies run around when holding up their shields, or the way Bayek swings his axe in a huge arc and just as it comes to the end of the sweep it nudges a guards and he falls dead onto the floor? To me that is more immersion breaking because it contradicts the physics I am used to. Then throw in the stupid dashing and watching the combat is honestly painful. I'll have to wait until I play the game to say how it feels mechanically, but in terms of appearance, it isn't even comparable to any past ACs with the exception of Syndicate.

Regarding the OP:

Stealth - Yes social stealth is gone, but it's not really anything to complain about because it was never really there in the first place. I really would not call it a 'pillar', despite it being part of the Creed's 3 tenets. Everything else seems pretty much the same as what we've been used to. I'm a bit disappointed with the tool variety, with the majority being used to merely damage guards rather than manipulate or disable them. We'll see how much of a difference the new hidden blade damage makes; if most mission scan be ghosted then I welcome this change.

Parkour - Looks very samey but the animation has taken a turn for the worse with certain movements having a more comical style that is akin to something from Uncharted or SoM. That said, a lot of the jumping animations that they've taken from Syndicate do look slightly more polished. I'll have to play it to see how it feels, but apparently it requires more precision and allows you to make a mistake and jump to your death, which I'm glad about. I'm hearing conflicting reports on the removal of parkour down, but if it really is gone, then that is easily the biggest disappointment. Rock climbing is a nice idea but the animation needs some serious work.

Combat - Already discussed this above. Overall not liking the look of it, but the hit-box driven system does seem to allow for more challenging fights, and finally some decent boss battles (though I really hate how the stronger enemies are twice Bayek's height). Unfortunately it does look a bit spammy at times.

Kiroku
07-12-2017, 01:41 PM
Well I just watched a Video on Youtube from E3 and was wondering why the hell it is not possible to push an enemy (even if its a boss) down from a platform of a ship while in combat with him. That makes me overthinking the positive feedback about the combat system actually.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ws6mEAhFo

Watch at minute 5:38.

jdowny
07-12-2017, 01:54 PM
^ That annoys me endlessly as well. It was the same in Unity and Syndicate.

Overall Origins is pleasing me, but there a lot of niggling details like the above that, while not game-breaking, are disappointing.

SixKeys
07-12-2017, 05:15 PM
Well I just watched a Video on Youtube from E3 and was wondering why the hell it is not possible to push an enemy (even if its a boss) down from a platform of a ship while in combat with him. That makes me overthinking the positive feedback about the combat system actually.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ws6mEAhFo

Watch at minute 5:38.

That does look rather silly. I also have a problem with how Bayek gets literally impaled by a spear yet he shrugs it off like it's nothing. Getting impaled should take up a HUGE chunk of your health, at least one full bar. I like having more brutal attacks from the enemies this time, but they mean nothing if they're treated as little scratches.

crusader_prophet
07-12-2017, 06:00 PM
I think AC1 had the most realism, the others not so much. I'd like to see combat be more realistic

AC1 and AC Unity are the only two games in the series where the combat felt a bit challenging and realistic. With the introduction of hitbox system and if they have retained similar mechanics but tweaked the physics it will be better in Origins. I am not having too much trouble with the aesthetic part of the combat animations so far. It looks fine to me.


I also have a problem with how Bayek gets literally impaled by a spear yet he shrugs it off like it's nothing. Getting impaled should take up a HUGE chunk of your health, at least one full bar. I like having more brutal attacks from the enemies this time, but they mean nothing if they're treated as little scratches.
And this as well. The physics needs to be right. Even if I have invested everything in becoming a brawler, getting impalled from a spear couple of times (if I have no armor) should literally kill me. With armor, damage taken should be proportional to armor level and type, without offering us invincibility.

cawatrooper9
07-12-2017, 07:15 PM
Yeah- I think Unity did a pretty good job with the brutal attacks. There were times when I knew I was dead before my health even went down, just based on the fact that the enemy smashed my spine in with a sword. Looking back, that's kind of a neat (albiet, gory) feature.

Back on topic, I wonder this- do you think it's possible that the three pillars will be adjusted so that "social stealth" becomes the more general "stealth"? We've seen AC slowly working toward a more broad stealth approach for a long time, and while I hate to social go entirely, I think "Stealth" in general has certainly earned its spot in the series at this point.

Sushiglutton
07-12-2017, 09:32 PM
Well I just watched a Video on Youtube from E3 and was wondering why the hell it is not possible to push an enemy (even if its a boss) down from a platform of a ship while in combat with him. That makes me overthinking the positive feedback about the combat system actually.


Watch at minute 5:38.

I see what you mean, but I don't think it's easy to fix. A high fall like that would/should kill a guard. Therefor you can't let the player push enemies off the platform using regular moves because then the combat system becomes unbalanced. At the same time they want moves like the shield bash to feel physical and to achieve that the enemies need to move when hit. This works fine on solid land, but not on platforms.

Pretty tough thing to balance.I don't really blame them for cheating some with an invisible wall. I'm sure there are more elegant solutions, but this is okey-ish.



That does look rather silly. I also have a problem with how Bayek gets literally impaled by a spear yet he shrugs it off like it's nothing. Getting impaled should take up a HUGE chunk of your health, at least one full bar. I like having more brutal attacks from the enemies this time, but they mean nothing if they're treated as little scratches.

Yeah what was that? Looked like one of the final attacks when you are killed off in Unity (which I have hardly ever seen... lol :o). Thought that was a better use of impalement to give a clear signal of game over.

Kiroku
07-13-2017, 12:01 AM
That does look rather silly. I also have a problem with how Bayek gets literally impaled by a spear yet he shrugs it off like it's nothing. Getting impaled should take up a HUGE chunk of your health, at least one full bar. I like having more brutal attacks from the enemies this time, but they mean nothing if they're treated as little scratches.

Yeah I agree. Combat should be really hard if you dont go the sneaky assassin way. At least those hard attacks should hit like a truck.


I see what you mean, but I don't think it's easy to fix. A high fall like that would/should kill a guard. Therefor you can't let the player push enemies off the platform using regular moves because then the combat system becomes unbalanced. At the same time they want moves like the shield bash to feel physical and to achieve that the enemies need to move when hit. This works fine on solid land, but not on platforms.

Pretty tough thing to balance.I don't really blame them for cheating some with an invisible wall. I'm sure there are more elegant solutions, but this is okey-ish..

I don't know if its easy to fix. They actually had almost 4 years for the game. Including the combat system. Maybe they could have used a cut scene for bosses at those points. You bash them off and before they fall they could use one hand to grab the edge and leave it to fall on their feet. After that the combat could go on.

I mean you actually use your brain and think of an opportunity to easy kill them and thats why you go up there knowing you can kick him off. At least I would think to be able to do that.

Not being able to do this because it would be too easy actually kills the immersion. If enemies would also be able to kick you off too like with the great attack of this boss and you end up dying instantly would be fair enoguh right?

ohoni
07-13-2017, 08:37 AM
Someone said AC used to have realism in combat? Dear lord, what AC games have I been playing until now where I single handedly kill dozens of brutes, archers, agiles and pawns in one single fight, all while I'm magnetically drawn into them from 50ft away when they attack me even if I'm not facing them.

I've never seen an AC character shift more than a few feet to connect a hit, and if they do, that's a problem with the animations not keeping up, rather than a gameplay issue. I'd rather that they improve the animation than change the gameplay.


That does look rather silly. I also have a problem with how Bayek gets literally impaled by a spear yet he shrugs it off like it's nothing. Getting impaled should take up a HUGE chunk of your health, at least one full bar. I like having more brutal attacks from the enemies this time, but they mean nothing if they're treated as little scratches.

The thing that annoys me the most about the combat shown so far is how Bayek with a spear is constantly swinging it wide, which causes it to phase right through any enemy it hits as if they're ghosts. If they are going to be swinging a spear like that, then 1. as soon as it comes into contact with an enemy it should bounce back, and 2. It should only do max damage at max range, if they get inside the range so that the shaft of it hits them, then it should do less damage.


I see what you mean, but I don't think it's easy to fix. A high fall like that would/should kill a guard. Therefor you can't let the player push enemies off the platform using regular moves because then the combat system becomes unbalanced.

Why should the balance trump realism? Of course if you can knock enemies off a ledge, then they can knock you off too. If there are fights where it's important that players not get a "cheap" win, like boss fights, then just don't put them in places where the player could get elevation advantage over his enemy. I don't see how they could abandon AC-style combat in favor of Soulslike combat, picking up "hitbox combat," and NOT allow you to punish enemies for climbing up on you. Having they watched Revenge of the Sith?

jdowny
07-13-2017, 11:06 AM
I see what you mean, but I don't think it's easy to fix. A high fall like that would/should kill a guard. Therefor you can't let the player push enemies off the platform using regular moves because then the combat system becomes unbalanced. At the same time they want moves like the shield bash to feel physical and to achieve that the enemies need to move when hit. This works fine on solid land, but not on platforms.

It worked well enough in AC1 where guards could push you off the edge, but the balance was evened out.

1) The player has less fall damage than enemies, so would often not be killed outright.
2) The player could also (after a certain point) stop enemies from grabbing the player and throwing them off.
3) The player could catch the wall and avoid falling and taking damage.

There are plenty of ways to implement it, and it's pretty jarring when enemies are stopped from falling by an invisible wall, especially if it's a tactic the player has deliberately tried. This is generally what Ubisot does - they create the most beautiful and detailed worlds but this level of detail stops when it comes to combat, stealth, animation, gameplay mechanics etc. It's like they just get lazy.

Kiroku
07-13-2017, 12:08 PM
I've never seen an AC character shift more than a few feet to connect a hit, and if they do, that's a problem with the animations not keeping up, rather than a gameplay issue. I'd rather that they improve the animation than change the gameplay.



The thing that annoys me the most about the combat shown so far is how Bayek with a spear is constantly swinging it wide, which causes it to phase right through any enemy it hits as if they're ghosts. If they are going to be swinging a spear like that, then 1. as soon as it comes into contact with an enemy it should bounce back, and 2. It should only do max damage at max range, if they get inside the range so that the shaft of it hits them, then it should do less damage.



Why should the balance trump realism? Of course if you can knock enemies off a ledge, then they can knock you off too. If there are fights where it's important that players not get a "cheap" win, like boss fights, then just don't put them in places where the player could get elevation advantage over his enemy. I don't see how they could abandon AC-style combat in favor of Soulslike combat, picking up "hitbox combat," and NOT allow you to punish enemies for climbing up on you. Having they watched Revenge of the Sith?

Agree.



It worked well enough in AC1 where guards could push you off the edge, but the balance was evened out.

1) The player has less fall damage than enemies, so would often not be killed outright.
2) The player could also (after a certain point) stop enemies from grabbing the player and throwing them off.
3) The player could catch the wall and avoid falling and taking damage.

There are plenty of ways to implement it, and it's pretty jarring when enemies are stopped from falling by an invisible wall, especially if it's a tactic the player has deliberately tried. This is generally what Ubisot does - they create the most beautiful and detailed worlds but this level of detail stops when it comes to combat, stealth, animation, gameplay mechanics etc. It's like they just get lazy.

Agree.

Why not just make it more difficult. If you can knock them off they can knock you off too! simple as that. Plus more damage taken by strong attacks from enemies.
As I said people will overthink going in like rambo or rather go for silent kills.

And in AC Brotherhood for example fights were the most easiest I have seen in an AC so far. Just grab a boss like guard that protects one of those towers you have to burn down and throw him off a roof or into a scaffold. Still this title was one of the best. Even with that simple combat..