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Trenk2009
07-06-2017, 04:49 PM
*EDITED*

Here's a list of changes that For Honor need to go trough in order to be a great competitive game, in my opinion:

-GENERAL CHANGES-

1) Fix the defensive meta.
How ? Introduce significant chip damage, make it so feinting cost no stamina, reduce the stamina cost of blocked attacks, make it so guard breaking cost some stamina, and make it so blocking cost some little stamina or at least reduce/stops stamina regen. This should put an emphasis on parrying and so making feints and mind game more relevant.

2) Dedicated servers at least for ranked plays are a must have.

3) Fix flickering glitch.
How ? Make it so zones are only usable in the stance the attack will come from.

4) Buff revenge
How ? Either make it so revenge gives hyper armor in order to be immune to any CCs, or give a full health bar of armor. This should allow outnumbered players to run away if they want to, while still require some high skill in order to clutch. Considering how irrelevant the revenge is right now, something must be done. As of right now winning a 1v2 against decent players is already a serious challenge.

5) Make it so every game modes give the same base amount of XP in order to spread more evenly the community around all game modes.

6) Buff deflect. Harder to perfomed than parrys yet gives less reward. This is not how it should work.

7) Get rid of every 50/50. Period.

-HERO CHANGES-

1) Nerf warden.
Simply get rid of her 50/50. Just like you did with Shinobi.

2) Conqueror Dilemma.
Probably the most boring char of the game. Able to be the best turtle of the game but is completely inefficient due to the fact that he literally has 1 "viable" move that is now easily dodgeable but can't be punished. Fighting a conqueror is an extremely long and boring procedure that require to open his turtle up while trying to take no risk in doing so. Conq needs to be reworked in order to be more punishable while giving him more viable and balanced tools to attack; fixing the defensive meta should do the rest concerning his defensive playstyle.

3) Buff PK.
Her deflect should be more rewarding than her parry. Also her damage are too low considering how hard it his to open up a turtle. Buff her bleeding triple stab so that she does a pourcentage of actuall health. By doing this, she will hit hard if her ennemy has a lot of hp but wont be able to kill him with this. Make it so her heavy into bleading light soft cancel can be performed while changing direction of the attack. The flicker fix should fix her zone abuse.

4) Nerf Lawbringer.
Get rid of his 50/50 just like you did with shino. Considering he can guarante a push after a block, this is obviously op. Also make it so his push is more punishable.

5) Nerf Centurion.
Too much stamina drain, too low stamina consume. Jabs + heavys against wall absue must be deleted too.
Considering his great feint game, his timing changing heavys, his stuns, his vortex, his speed, and his punish after parry, the Centurion is clearly god tier. He completely breaks the meta and yet can embrace it like no others. So nerf his stamina consume and his stamina drain and see how it goes. Nerfing his heavys speed, tracking, as well as his stuns maybe an idea too but start with the stamina drain please.
P.S: Also, his feats clearly need to be looked at, especially the guaranteed max punish by dagger throw, this is stupid. Any other chars have a dodgeable throwing weapons, cent don't. Why ? This is dumb, especially considering what it gives as a reward.

6) Imo, Raider is well balanced even if he cant do a ton of things.

7) Nerf warlord.
No need to explain here. Clearly the most powerfull char of the game. He can do anything within and without the meta with fast attacks, unpunishable and close to unreactable headbutt that guarantes damage, superior block on lights, chains for everything, superarmor on heavys, lower recovery times of the game, fast yet largest zone attack of the game with an insane forward dash, universal guard stance ... Etc etc ... Just find a way to nerf him asap. Thanks.

8) Berserker dilemma.
Clearly one of the less viable char of the game yet has probably the healthiest play style ever, based on attacking and feinting, while having a decent defensive aspect grat with punish on parrys and deflects.
Here's an idea:
*Once berserk hit twice he got super armor (as usual); and once he hit 4 times, he gets in a special state that allow his next zone attack to be special attack depending on if it's landed after a heavy or a light.
-If landed after a heavy (no need to connect), pressing zone will land a punch that as the same stamina drain property as a valk headbutt. If the heavy beforend connects, the punch is undodgeable. A simple connecting punch guarantes a free light, while falling from a punch guarantes a free top heavy (no usual max punish).
If the punch is dodged however, the berserker is opened to a free gb. Once this attack is used, the chain property of the berserker is fully reset.
-If landed after a light (need to connect, duh), pressing zone will make the berserk spin and land 2 consecutive unblockable light attacks (same speed as usual lights). If the first one isn't parried, the second is guaranted.
If it is parried however, the berserker will fall a loose 1.5 times the stamina of an usual light parry. Once this attack is used, the berserker is bringed back to his first unituruptible state (usual super armor)
Also: the timer reset on this should be larg enough so a feint/ a dodge can go trough without resetting the state; and a gb should be counted as a hit of the chain in order to make it easier for the berserk to build his state up.

Adding this to the berserker should allow him to really get rewarded for oppenning a defense (considering how hard it is for him to do so) while still making him the harrassing monster that he was designed to be.

9) Buff Valkyrie.
Valk actaully suffers of a lack of consistencie. For instance, even tho her heayy soft feint into shield bash is way more punisahble than other vortexes such as the warlord's headbutt or conq's shield bash; she still gets nothing once she lands it. This is dumb, I think a connecting shield bash should guarante a free light, just like every other connecting vortexes does. Also, her shield bash should be able to be connected into a wall stun and offers a free heavy if so (ofc, in order to limit abuse *Glancing at Centurion*, getting heavyed while wall stunned musn't guarante another shiled bash, just like when on the ground)

10) Buff Kensei.
That's not a secret for anyone: kensei is the less viable choice of the game right now. Yet his play style, constructed around finishers is very cool; he just need some speed to make it interesting. Please make his light and heavys faster, so that its harder to parry. As of right now for instance, it is super easy to parry a side finisher that as been soft feinted from top finisher. This shouldn't be the case; Kensei should be fast enough so that we have to prepare to parry top and have to canceel our parry to block if he feints; and same goes fro feint into dash.
Also, a greater stamina pool won't be too much considering his speed and how much he must cancels (except if you make it so cancels cost no stamina)

11) Imo, Shugoki is quite balanced, even tho he's not top tier, I think he's pretty good as he his right now. The only thing that needs to change is his oni charge uselessness since nerf. For me, the oni charge should still make fall people, but simply shouldn't be cancellable, to avoid abusing of it.

12) Buff Orochi.
Once the flicker glitch will be fix, Orochi is really going to be low tier. His lack of opponers and his slow side lights makes him a really poor hero.
Making his side lights as fast as top light should already be a great change since it will make it less obvious than he his right now. Also, his deflect his pretty useless compared to a simple parry, and yet again, this shouldn't be the case.
Also, his Storm Rush and Riptide strike are useless most of the time and yet again, aren't a good trade when compared to parrying.
Here's an idea:
*Once Orochi dashed backward, holding heavy will put him into is usual pre-strom rush stance. However, he can hold this stance (while consuming stamina) and change his attack stance at the same time.
- Choosing one of the sides will prepare him to use a strom rish, while top will prepare him to make a riptide strike.
Then, staying in one stance for more than 1 sec will charge his attack into new properties:
- Charging a storm rush will make it a teleport like speed and deals twice the damage of a top heavy into bleed damage. Using a charged strom rush however, doesn't allow for the 2 top lights guaranted and isn't feintable. If this move is blocked, the rush wont make any damage (not even chip ones) but will open the opponent to a free double top light. If this moved is parried (timing varying on distance), the orochi will loose a lot of stamina and will fall to the ground.
This should allow
- Charging a riptide strike will make the attack unblocable deals more 2 times the damage of the actual riptide strike.
Also: Both riptide strike and charged riptide strike are feintable; plus charged riptide strike gets a nobushi hidden stance dodge property on startup.
Also: A non charged riptide strike should be guaranted on a wall stun; and a fully charged storm rush should be allowed on a fall.

13) Buff Nobushi
Make first light of each chain faster. Make the retreat move usable not only on block but also by dodging backward an pressing gb. Make it so a heavy is soft feintable into a kick.
I don't play a lot of nobushi so other suggestions are welcome but i think those would make the nobushi a bit more viable.

14) Buff Shinobi
Get rid of the stupid super-reflex defense and put a normal assasin defense instead, thus making simple blocking less inconsistent than right now. Decrease the stamina cost of double dodging and simply put it on the actual kick. Make the zone attack 2nd part cancelable if the first conncects.

UbiNoty
07-07-2017, 01:40 AM
Ty for the extensive feedback - I'll pass along the hero suggestions.

As for def meta, you'll be able to test that out in the next PT at the end of the month, and we're still working on flicker (sorry, no eta yet). In regards to revenge, we may be waiting for the def meta changes to go through before making any big buffs to that. And as to equal XP, it's a suggestion we've definitely passed along before and is still under review.

C00tBAjenkins
07-07-2017, 07:40 AM
Here's a list of changes that For Honor need to go trough in order to be a great competitive game, in my opinion:

-GENERAL CHANGES-

1) Fix the defensive meta.
How ? Introduce significant chip damage and make it so blocking cost some stamina. This should put an emphasis on parrying and so making feints and mind game more relevant.

2) Dedicated servers at least for ranked plays are a must have.

3) Fix flickering glitch.
How ? Make it so zones are only usable in the stance the attack will come from.

4) Buff revenge
How ? Either make it so revenge gives hyper armor in order to be immune to any CCs, or give a full health bar of armor. This should allow outnumbered players to run away if they want to, while still require some high skill in order to clutch. Considering how irrelevant the revenge is right now, something must be done. As of right now winning a 1v2 against decent players is already a serious challenge.

5) Make it so every game modes give the same base amount of XP in order to spread more evenly the community around all game modes.

6) Buff deflect. Harder to perfomed than parrys yet gives less reward. This is not how it should work.

-HERO CHANGES-

1) Nerf warden.
Simply get rid of her 50/50. Just like you did with Shinobi.

2) Conqueror Dilemma.
Probably the most boring char of the game. Able to be the best turtle of the game but is completely inefficient due to the fact that he literally has 1 "viable" move that is now easily dodgeable but can't be punished. Fighting a conqueror is an extremely long and boring procedure that require to open his turtle up while trying to take no risk in doing so. Conq needs to be reworked in order to be more punishable, and fixing the defensive meta should do the rest concerning his defensive playstyle.

3) Buff PK.
Her deflect should be more rewarding than her parry. Also her damage are too low considering how hard it his to open up a turtle. Buff her bleeding triple stab so that she does a pourcentage of actuall health. By doing this, she will hit hard if her ennemy has a lot of hp but wont be able to kill him with this. Make it so her heavy into bleading light soft cancel can be performed while changing direction of the attack. The flicker fix should fix her zone abuse.

4) Nerf Lawbringer.
Get rid of his 50/50 just like you did with shino. Considering he can guarante a push after a block, this is obviously op. Also make it so his push is more punishable.

5) Nerf Centurion.
Too much stamina drain, too low stamina consume. Jabs + heavys against wall absue must be deleted too.
Considering his great feint game, his timing changing heavys, his stuns, his vortex, his speed, and his punish after parry, the Centurion is clearly god tier. He completely breaks the meta and yet can embrace it like no others. So nerf his stamina consume and his stamina drain and see how it goes. Nerfing his heavys speed, tracking, as well as his stuns maybe an idea too but start with the stamina drain please.
P.S: Also, his feats clearly need to be looked at, especially the guaranteed max punish by dagger throw, this is stupid. Any other chars have a dodgeable throwing weapons, cent don't. Why ? This is dumb, especially considering what it gives as a reward.

6) Imo, Raider is well balanced even if he cant do a ton of things.

7) Nerf warlord.
No need to explain here. Clearly the most powerfull char of the game. He can do anything within and without the meta with fast attacks, unpunishable and close to unreactable headbutt that guarantes damage, superior block on lights, chains for everything, superarmor on heavys, lower recovery times of the game, fast yet largest zone attack of the game with an insane forward dash, universal guard stance ... Etc etc ... Just find a way to nerf him asap. Thanks.

8) Berserker dilemma.
Clearly one of the less viable char of the game yet has probably the healthiest play style ever, based on attacking and feinting, while having a decent defensive aspect grat with punish on parrys and deflects.
Here's an idea:
*Once berserk hit twice he got super armor (as usual); and once he hit 4 times, he gets in a special state that allow his next zone attack to be special attack depending on if it's landed after a heavy or a light.
-If landed after a heavy (no need to connect), pressing zone will land a punch that as the same stamina drain property as a valk headbutt. If the heavy beforend connects, the punch is undodgeable. A simple connecting punch guarantes a free light, while falling from a punch guarantes a free top heavy (no usual max punish).
If the punch is dodged however, the berserker is opened to a free gb. Once this attack is used, the chain property of the berserker is fully reset.
-If landed after a light (need to connect, duh), pressing zone will make the berserk spin and land 2 consecutive unblockable light attacks (same speed as usual lights). If the first one isn't parried, the second is guaranted.
If it is parried however, the berserker will fall a loose 1.5 times the stamina of an usual light parry. Once this attack is used, the berserker is bringed back to his first unituruptible state (usual super armor)
Also: the timer reset on this should be larg enough so a feint/ a dodge can go trough without resetting the state; and a gb should be counted as a hit of the chain in order to make it easier for the berserk to build his state up.

Adding this to the berserker should allow him to really get rewarded for oppenning a defense (considering how hard it is for him to do so) while still making him the harrassing monster that he was designed to be.

9) Buff Valkyrie.
Valk actaully suffers of a lack of consistencie. For instance, even tho her heayy soft feint into shield bash is way more punisahble than other vortexes such as the warlord's headbutt or conq's shield bash; she still gets nothing once she lands it. This is dumb, I think a connecting shield bash should guarante a free light, just like every other connecting vortexes does. Also, her shield bash should be able to be connected into a wall stun and offers a free heavy if so (ofc, in order to limit abuse *Glancing at Centurion*, getting heavyed while wall stunned musn't guarante another shiled bash, just like when on the ground)

10) Buff Kensei.
That's not a secret for anyone: kensei is the less viable choice of the game right now. Yet his play style, constructed around finishers is very cool; he just need some speed to make it interesting. Please make his light and heavys faster, so that its harder to parry. As of right now for instance, it is super easy to parry a side finisher that as been soft feinted from top finisher. This shouldn't be the case; Kensei should be fast enough so that we have to prepare to parry top and have to canceel our parry to block if he feints; and same goes fro feint into dash.
Also, a greater stamina pool won't be too much considering his speed and how much he must cancels.

11) Imo, Shugoki is quite balanced, even tho he's not top tier, I think he's pretty good as he his right now. The only thing that needs to change is his oni charge uselessness since nerf. For me, the oni charge should still make fall people, but simply shouldn't be cancellable, to avoid abusing of it.

12) Buff Orochi.
Once the flicker glitch will be fix, Orochi is really going to be low tier. His lack of opponers and his slow side lights makes him a really poor hero.
Making his side lights as fast as top light should already be a great change since it will make it less obvious than he his right now. Also, his deflect his pretty useless compared to a simple parry, and yet again, this shouldn't be the case.
Also, his Storm Rush and Riptide strike are useless most of the time and yet again, aren't a good trade when compared to parrying.
Here's an idea:
*Once Orochi dashed backward, holding heavy will put him into is usual pre-strom rush stance. However, he can hold this stance (while consuming stamina) and change his attack stance at the same time.
- Choosing one of the sides will prepare him to use a strom rish, while top will prepare him to make a riptide strike.
Then, staying in one stance for more than 1 sec will charge his attack into new properties:
- Charging a storm rush will make it a teleport like speed and deals twice the damage of a top heavy into bleed damage. Using a charged strom rush however, doesn't allow for the 2 top lights guaranted and isn't feintable. If this move is blocked, the rush wont make any damage (not even chip ones) but will open the opponent to a free double top light. If this moved is parried (timing varying on distance), the orochi will loose a lot of stamina and will fall to the ground.
This should allow
- Charging a riptide strike will make the attack unblocable deals more 2 times the damage of the actual riptide strike.
Also: Both riptide strike and charged riptide strike are feintable; plus charged riptide strike gets a nobushi hidden stance dodge property on startup.
Also: A non charged riptide strike should be guaranted on a wall stun; and a fully charged storm rush should be allowed on a fall.

13) Buff Nobushi
Make first light of each chain faster. Make the retreat move usable not only on block but also by dodging backward an pressing gb. Make it so a heavy is soft feintable into a kick.
I don't play a lot of nobushi so other suggestions are welcome but i think those would make the nobushi a bit more viable.

14) Buff Shinobi
Get rid of the stupid super-reflex defense and put a normal assasin defense instead, thus making simple blocking less inconsistent than right now. Decrease the stamina cost of double dodging and simply put it on the actual kick. Make the zone attack 2nd part cancelable if the first conncects.

Can't help but notice the bias in character changes. Obviously nerfing characters you dont like and buffing the one's you do. No offense. 4 paragraphs on orochi...shugoki is fine? Conq no feedback other than deffensive meta change will kill him faster to make him more useless.

My.Insanity
07-07-2017, 08:03 AM
In my eyes we need to see first how the defensive Meta patch effects all the Heros... then we can start talking about Buffs/Nerfs.

apart from this.. Centurio need a "BUG FIX" in terms of his "pin-effect" which interrupts hyper armor (Shoguki / Warlord) this is completly killing the use of hyperarmor.

Draghmar
07-07-2017, 08:26 AM
1) Fix the defensive meta.
How ? Introduce significant chip damage and make it so blocking cost some stamina. This should put an emphasis on parrying and so making feints and mind game more relevant.
Sorry but this one point shows clearly that you don't know what you're talking about...Parried is already rewarding as hell. Especially parrying light attacks. And you want to force people to parry even more. Brilliant idea. Let's make it so people attack even less then now because they will be afraid of being parried - Cent is great example here because how punishing is if he gets parried you.
Also you're forgetting that some classes can spam attacks at much faster rate then others.

Dude_of_Valor
07-07-2017, 09:47 AM
To the original poster do you play on PC? As a lot the problems you have listed are not so apparent on console. As Ubi will not make separate changes for both PC and Console both versions need to be taken into consideration.

Trenk2009
07-07-2017, 12:31 PM
I know that parrying is rewarding. Yet I believe people must learn how be ambiguous and unpredictable in order to not me be parried easily. That's what I meant by mind game. Simple as that. But if you belive parrying should be nerfed then tell me how, ill be glad to discuss. Cuz honestly I don't see how the game could work with a parrying nerf.

Trenk2009
07-07-2017, 12:33 PM
Yeah that's true. But just in case she isn't fixed I gave my ideas.

Trenk2009
07-07-2017, 12:42 PM
"Obviously nerfing characters you dont like and buffing the one's you do."

Lol. Ok. So I gave a nerf suggestion of all the top tier chars of the moment and a buff to the others and I'm biased? How?

"Shugoki is fine" Well I rarely play against shugokis and rarely see complaints about him being too strong or to weak. I guess he's on the weak side of the spectrum considering his speed maybe. But I would be glad to hear what YOU have to say about it then.

"Conq no feedback other than deffensive meta change will kill him faster to make him more useless." I just think that Conq needs a complete rework in order to be more efficient while In the same time meta nerf will change is playstyle. Yet again if you have some clear changes you want to give him then share them instead of critisizing without argument. So stupid ...

vgrimr_J
07-07-2017, 12:53 PM
lawbringer still doesnt have 50/50 how many times that needs to be sed

Draghmar
07-07-2017, 01:07 PM
I know that parrying is rewarding. Yet I believe people must learn how be ambiguous and unpredictable in order to not me be parried easily. That's what I meant by mind game. Simple as that. But if you belive parrying should be nerfed then tell me how, ill be glad to discuss. Cuz honestly I don't see how the game could work with a parrying nerf.
Game shouldn't be balanced only in top players in mind. If devs can't make game so it was good for most gamers (including top) then it's their lack of skill or some fundamental problems within the game itself. That is general rule applied not only to FH.

There was many topics that discussed how parry could be viable and still not rewarding as much as it's now. For me most annoying thing is free heavy after light parry and GB in most cases after heavy parry that leads to...again heavy. As a example - I'm literally afraid of attacking Cent because of how much punishment I can get for simple poke with my Nobushi. I remember someone posted some time ago idea that looked something like that: parry disrupts attack flow and grants light for light and give chance for light after heavy (opponent has small window to react). This player did post much more detailed vision but what I've wrote above we may call summary.


lawbringer still doesnt have 50/50 how many times that needs to be sed
Yeah, I've seen video that shows that...but still it's close for anyone that doesn't have good enough reflexes. ;)

Trenk2009
07-07-2017, 01:10 PM
Lol nobody can dodge light after shove on reaction. Stop lying.

vgrimr_J
07-07-2017, 01:15 PM
Lol nobody can dodge light after shove on reaction. Stop lying.

ppl do it even on xbox so its possible

vgrimr_J
07-07-2017, 01:16 PM
Game shouldn't be balanced only in top players in mind. If devs can't make game so it was good for most gamers (including top) then it's their lack of skill or some fundamental problems within the game itself. That is general rule applied not only to FH.

There was many topics that discussed how parry could be viable and still not rewarding as much as it's now. For me most annoying thing is free heavy after light parry and GB in most cases after heavy parry that leads to...again heavy. As a example - I'm literally afraid of attacking Cent because of how much punishment I can get for simple poke with my Nobushi. I remember someone posted some time ago idea that looked something like that: parry disrupts attack flow and grants light for light and give chance for light after heavy (opponent has small window to react). This player did post much more detailed vision but what I've wrote above we may call summary.


Yeah, I've seen video that shows that...but still it's close for anyone that doesn't have good enough reflexes. ;)

this game is all about reading your opponent and reflexes without those you are ****ed sadly game aint for casuals and thats why i love this game

Trenk2009
07-07-2017, 01:19 PM
Yeah maybe but I'm afraid that then fight would be boring. Cuz clearly I won't take the risk to parry if I can't get something interesting after it. Parrying a light is hard and clearly only having a light after doing such thing is straight out to much risk for nothing imo.

But i don't get your first part tho. You say that game shouldn't be balanced on high level player only yet you talk as if everyone one was able to consistently parry every move regardless of how ambiguous you can be.

Mia.Nora
07-07-2017, 01:21 PM
.. As a example - I'm literally afraid of attacking Cent because of how much punishment I can get for simple poke with my Nobushi. I remember someone posted some time ago idea that looked something like that: parry disrupts attack flow and grants light for light and give chance for light after heavy (opponent has small window to react). This player did post much more detailed vision but what I've wrote above we may call summary.


I had a suggestion thread (3-4 pages long compiled suggestion including multi-queue MM, menu UI revamp and gameplay suggestion) like 4-5 months ago. Maybe you remember it maybe someone else's, anyway my opinion on the matter was like that back then;

- Blocks don't interrupt combos - so that pressure keeps going on as long as enemy stays aggressive
- Add Chip Damage on all attacks based on attack speed (very low for 500ms, low chip for 600ms, 10+ chip for 700+ ms attacks)
- Parry is the means of interruption that allows for a light attack as combo starter - since everyone has at least one combo starts with light, and they should have more too
- Stamina is the currency of aggression - no need to put any more discouragement on aggression when it is already limited by stamina

That was pretty much what I suggested 5 months ago, the thread was even forwarded to dev team back then. What annoys me is that nothing is DONE. Anything just ANYTHING could have been a placeholder until they figure out perfect formula, but instead they did nothing. And judging by the way they describe incoming defensive meta fix it will be pretty lame.

I mean how does making OOS more punishable prevents defensive meta??? Either they are geniuses that see something I fail to see, or since only aggressor lose stamina and risks losing further stamina through parry, OOS punish will make turtle even more relevant. The way I see they are really clueless in their own game...

Draghmar
07-07-2017, 01:24 PM
this game is all about reading your opponent and reflexes without those you are ****ed sadly game aint for casuals and thats why i love this game
Lol...of course it is also for casuals. There's no chance they would make enough money if they designed it only in elites in mind. And by 'reading' you mean guessing then I will say the same thing I always say in this case: guessing is just bad and lazy design. It's something that is much simpler to achieve then proper balance.

BTW I'd like to see if you would get 100% reaction for LB's Shove->(GB|LA). Because it's always chance that someone gets most properly because of lucky guessing. ;)

Vakris_One
07-07-2017, 01:25 PM
I think this guy outlines a pretty interesting idea on how to kill the defensive meta:

https://youtu.be/WlL0Z2tIi6s

The only problem I see is that it could encourage more attack spamming which can be quite annoying.

Charmzzz
07-07-2017, 01:31 PM
Lol nobody can dodge light after shove on reaction. Stop lying.

I am 35 years old (so my reaction is nowhere near 100ms), playing on PC with a 144hz Monitor, and I can deflect or dodge around 60-70% of Light's after Shove. Normally after 2-3 attempts the LB players switch to GB after Shove, but the delay to GB is quite big and I can react to that, too.

Anyway, LB Shove is not a true 50/50 like a Warden SB if he is close to you. But that is countered by a Light...

Draghmar
07-07-2017, 01:33 PM
Yeah maybe but I'm afraid that then fight would be boring. Cuz clearly I won't take the risk to parry if I can't get something interesting after it. Parrying a light is hard and clearly only having a light after doing such thing is straight out to much risk for nothing imo.

But i don't get your first part tho. You say that game shouldn't be balanced on high level player only yet you talk as if everyone one was able to consistently parry every move regardless of how ambiguous you can be.
I don't think it would be boring. Light attacks still give decent amount of damage. So you still should be careful. I know what I'm talking. I had numerous fight when I try to rely only on poking with occasional HS into poke.

What I meant is that devs shouldn't focus only to please top players. It's like you said - not everyone can parry everything that's why parry is rewarding. But if you get someone who can parry at least on decent level it's becomes very frustrating. And yet higher level players says that parry is not a problem and should stay as it is now.
BTW Playing as Nobushi I was really parried very often. All lights that I have at my disposal were parried. All. Sometimes I've been fighting with players that could parry almost all lights. That was the moment I had to start defence play. Other ways were too risky.

Charmzzz
07-07-2017, 01:58 PM
I don't think it would be boring. Light attacks still give decent amount of damage. So you still should be careful. I know what I'm talking. I had numerous fight when I try to rely only on poking with occasional HS into poke.

What I meant is that devs shouldn't focus only to please top players. It's like you said - not everyone can parry everything that's why parry is rewarding. But if you get someone who can parry at least on decent level it's becomes very frustrating. And yet higher level players says that parry is not a problem and should stay as it is now.
BTW Playing as Nobushi I was really parried very often. All lights that I have at my disposal were parried. All. Sometimes I've been fighting with players that could parry almost all lights. That was the moment I had to start defence play. Other ways were too risky.

This got me to a massive feint style on PK. I never start with Light or ZA anymore, too risky vs decent players. Always heavy feint into something, and even that is risky. If you do not play any hero with a spamable and unblockable opener you are pretty much fcked within this defensive meta.