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View Full Version : Poll. Track IR.



OldPepper
06-28-2004, 05:10 PM

OldPepper
06-28-2004, 05:10 PM

jenikovtaw
06-28-2004, 05:22 PM
Many good flyers dont have trackir and use HAT very well.

I fly with HAT, and of course, if had money would get a geeky lookint trackir, but why? Would it make me a better flyer? Would it make A190 A9 turn better or climb faster?

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OldPepper
06-28-2004, 05:26 PM
I hear you. My friend T-rex 'padlocks' when the server allows, but always gets me when I don't allow it 1v1! (Ill get you yet!)

He suggested to get into the padlock habit, just to improve my tally skill which will help my skill even on servers without padlock.

Indeed, a view controller will NOT make a plane turn better or lose less energy! !S good comments! Thanks!

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Relant2000
06-28-2004, 05:50 PM
It just gives you a better situational awareness. While leaving your thumb free to do other things.
Oh and it feels really natural after a while.
I'd hate to go back to the hat method.

georgeo76
06-28-2004, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A tiny trackball clipped to my controller would be a nice cheap option<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can get this w/ the X-45. I think you'd get more benifit from a HOTAS than TIR.

T_O_A_D
06-28-2004, 06:28 PM
TIR is intuitive, and natural to use.

But a well trained Hat button can still own you.

Get a good Hotas, then TIR or something of the like. The depending on your Hotas rudder control get Rudder pedals.

More on TIR in my sig.

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WWSensei
06-28-2004, 06:55 PM
I would argue TIR *might* give you some marginal increase in SA but by far where it really shines is in the amount of "immersion" it adds. No other view system comes close.

TooCooL34
06-28-2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jenikovtaw:
Many good flyers dont have trackir and use HAT very well.

I fly with HAT, and of course, if had money would get a geeky lookint trackir, but why? Would it make me a better flyer? Would it make A190 A9 turn better or climb faster?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, that's exactly what I (as a hat switch ace for 10 years) said when my squad mate recommended me TrackIR one and half years ago.

What a fool I was.. what a fool.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Back_Loop
06-29-2004, 03:49 AM
My squad mate got the TIR3pro and has been telling us how good it is for a week now... Im ordering mine today ;-) He says it takes time to get the settings right for one self and about 4-7 days learning to fly with it but then it´s... macigal immersion. you can fly over a forest and look at a sinlge tree while flying by... just cant wait to get it

Tully__
06-29-2004, 04:19 AM
While TIR is highly desirable, it is not essential. I have an X-45 and have mouse panning mapped to a hat switch. I also have TIR. While TIR is great, there are moments when I disable it in favour of the mouse panning.

If you don't have one of the HOTAS controllers that natively support mouse-on-a-hat, there are several free download 3rd party applications that allow you to do the same or similar with other joysticks. Examples are NewView and JoyToKey.

You can also get very good with just the snap views if you learn to combine the "Look up" & "Look Down" commands with the normal hat views to get the 45 degree up & down views.

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SeaFireLIV
06-29-2004, 04:31 AM
TIR does enhance your situational awareness, or rather, makes it EASIER to be AWARE of your immediate situation! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

The other alternative I would advise is using the Mouse (in left or right hand)as the `head` view. IMHO it is nearly as good as TIR in that it allows you full SA and you can focus on more than 1 bogey.

The main advantage of TIR is it FREES you up from the mouse, it FREES you from the hatswitch so you can literally concentrate on other things and still keep an eye on what`s happening.

It uses your head as a Controller. It`s the closest thing to reality you can get on a Moniter and does become insanely (and worryingly) addictive and is very natural.

p.s I still have Mouse view enabled on the Mouse just in case TIR lets me down. In one case I forgot to enable TIR on a coop and was saved becuase I was able to switch to my Mouse!
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oeqvist
06-29-2004, 04:32 AM
Mouse view is just about equal to TrackIR really though TrackIR is more fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AWL_Spinner
06-29-2004, 04:57 AM
Can't fly without TIR.

As others have said, it's an immersion thing as much as an SA thing. For me it's the fact that you *always* know which way you're looking as you have physical feedback - i.e. your head is tilted slightly in that direction.

This helps a lot when like me you spend most of your time on the defensive!

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Mirtma
06-29-2004, 05:19 AM
Well, maybe you should put another option in pool - software solution like NewView. I play with it & would recommend it to anyone who doesn't have/like TrackIR!

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RAAF_Edin
06-29-2004, 05:40 AM
I've been using the HAT switch (Cougar here) for a while now (since I got it in Dec 2001) and it was not very problematic to fly with it at all.

I did however, get the TrackIR 3 Pro just a couple of days ago, and I must say... it is better then HAT switch... after you get used to it (I think I am still adjusting http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

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TugZooey
06-29-2004, 06:41 AM
I think a HOTAS should come first before a TIR. When I bought my X-45 and downloaded ADLABS profile, I could track just about anything with mouse view on the hat and with few problems (after practise of course).

I received a TIR3pro a few weeks ago, and while I don't want to go back to the hat, I do find myself disabling the TIR is certain situations. On mode 3 I still have HAT view and mouse view mapped to the two joystick hats.

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IAFS_Painter
06-29-2004, 06:45 AM
Well - in my opinion - TrackIR is much easier to use than the Hat switch if you fly full real.

There is a lot of feed back from the way you position your head, and the canopy framing.

Some of the more open aircraft (bubble tops) are disconcerting when there is no frame of reference.



I find TrackIR nearly impossible if I'm using WW view - the head tends to track where the pilot wants to go, and in a turn, that can be a long, long way away from the cross hairs.

There is a strong tempation to pull into the turn harder than you really should.

Again, in WW view, with TrackIR, the lack of a frame of reference is disconcerting.

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michapma
06-29-2004, 07:42 AM
Unfortunately, TrackIR doesn't guarantee tracking bogies. I still lose aircraft against green backgrounds all the time, especially with my new graphics card. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

But yeah, it's the immersion that makes me love TrackIR so much!

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x6BL_Brando
06-29-2004, 08:56 AM
Not having a right arm I find TrackIR absolutely essential. In fact, I was using SmartNav before TIR was released and I would add that the technology has improved a lot since those early days. I replaced my original unit with the 3Pro a few weeks ago and the difference is staggering - really smooth, unaffected by daylight, it's as trusty a tool as my FighterStick http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm using Charvel's profile (from the 3Pro web-page) and it works very well indeed.

With the handicap (pun?) I mentioned above I don't get to use a throttle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but I have a mass of commands mapped to my stick, which is another reason I like TIR so much. Using the POV hat as a standard four-way hat-switch, with 3 modes and the shift function, I get 24 extra command options which are very useful http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Imitating the human eyeball is a massive task that takes a lot of human as well as hardware input at this time. Although a scripted stick command (or a quick thumb) can run through the incremental 'zoom' functions that imitate the focussing ability of the eyes' lenses, we are still a fair distance from being able to just 'look around' as we do when away from from the monitor. For example: you're sitting at your monitor, the door opens and someone walks in; you swivel your head and your eyes immediately shift focus to recognise who is there - when a movement outside the window pulls your head round in time for you to recognise the tail-end of a passing seagull. In the distance you notice a ship leaving harbour, and by squinting you can just make out the name painted on the stern....and so on........

....the point being, imo, that TiR is a great advance in the quest for optical VR - and hopefully a spur to the game developers to keep improving the 'field of vision' function.

Finally - optical pushes for freed-up buttons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

1) Shift F1 - like leaning backwards or forwards, also centres the gunsight on most planes

2) Delete/End/PageDown - A toggle command, from 'wide-view' out to 'gunsight-view'

3) Insert - another toggle, this time for incremental zoom. Used with the above this is the fine-focussing tool.

Using the shift-press, I get my mike button, my map, and the centering key for TiR from the same buttons. But since the 3Pro I've found the last is redundant - one hit on the keyboard on entering the cockpit is enough - so I'll have to think of another , maybe smoke.

TrackIR won't make your aircraft fly any better but, as you roll around your enemies plane in a dogfight, being able to keep your eyes on him at all times while you fly the plane by instinct and the occasional sweeping glance - that will really raise your enjoyment of the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
06-29-2004, 10:41 AM
Hi,

I don't use trackIR - it's for noobs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

More seriously, I have tried alternatives but never really got much more out of it than the hat.
I'd say that I had a better sense of immersion using something like it because it actually felt more like you were actually there.

It'd be interesting to conduct an experiment about how much advantage trackIR gives you during combat but we need a pair of twins...

Cheers,
Norris

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Bearcat99
06-29-2004, 02:54 PM
I use track IR but i still have my views on my mouse pan of the X45. I use it more for immersion but sometimes I turn it off if I am flying in an open pit server so I switch.. but it is great for immersion. The only bad thing is for some reason with my rig it doesnt run perfect well.

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burgers22
06-29-2004, 05:42 PM
HI

For jet sims a HOTAS is needed more than a TIR type device. as so much more fighting is done BVR, & so many more systems are to be managed. I couldn't imagen Falcon4 or LOMAC without a HOTAS. If you do have a HOTAS I'd recomened mapping the view to the micro stick, rather than the HAT, so you can pan much more indipendantly, than with the HAT. For a sim like IL2, I'd say that TIR is more important than either rudder pedels, or a HOTAS, providing your stick is at lest a bit programable. Having said all that, I've got a Couger, peddals, TIR & I still get the **** shot out of me on most severs, I just know its me, not the kit though!

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westcoastphil
06-29-2004, 06:25 PM
I use an Logitech MX700 as my tracking/viewing device. I have it set up so that I can use the 8 available buttons for: Flaps up/down, ShiftF1 key, Radiator, throttle,bound TS comm key, right button incremental zoom, left button decremental zoom. Then I have a CH combatstick that I use the hotas for quick recenter and also quick views if needed, plus 1 button mapped for wide view. Yep, that's alot but it seems to work for me most of the time.

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WTE_Galway
06-29-2004, 06:45 PM
three things i have no regrets aboout purchasing

MS FFB2 (no more stalls for me)

CH PRO pedals with proportional brake (precision shooting and no more prop into the dirt on landing)

TrackIR


the only other thing i would like is for the edimensional 3d glasses to work with IL2

tttiger
06-29-2004, 08:41 PM
Old Pepper,

I'm not going to take your poll because of the way it is worded. A poll should not have bias built into the question or the responses.

I don't consider TIR a "view enhancement." I flew for many years in many sims with a hatswitch and I don't think TIR either "enhances" my view (makes it in any way clearer or easier to spot bogies or ground targets) or makes me a better (or worse) pilot. By calling it an "enhancement," you automatically invalidate your poll, IMO.

It simply adds to the immersion and makes viewing more realistic in terms of moving my head.

It doesn't cure the tunnel vision of a PC monitor. Any of you who have had real combat training or experience know that you are most likely to spot a target (by movement, color, shape or whatever) by shifting your eyes (not your head) and picking up the target in your peripheral view. Even with TIR, that type of very important scanning is impossible on a computer monitor.

Similarly, it doesn't allow me to look down at my instruments by simply shifting my eyes without moving my head (as most of us do while driving a car, for example).

At most (as Brando mentioned), it makes it a bit easier to keep your eye on a bandit (or your wingman) while rolling as in a rolling scissors. Buyt you can do that with a hatswitch, too, with practice.

Now, if you're wondering what to buy in what order, here's my free (and thus worthless http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) advice:

1. You absolutely need rudder control. Pedals or a twist stick. Take care of this first. It is absolutely essential for aiming your guns.

2. TIR, which is not essential. I have it, I love it, but I don't really need it. Despite your comment about being "hatswitched to death," I truly don't believe it gives me an edge of any sort. It isn't that hatswitch that's getting you killed.

3. HOTAS, which is not essential. If I had the space on my desk for it, I would get an X-45. But it's definitely a "nice to have" rather than a "must have" item.

BTW, I do have a "view enhancer." It's 6BL Brando, my squaddie who posted just above. We wing together a lot and he constantly spots distant aircraft long before I do. A good wingman with excellent vision beats TIR, a hatswitch or a mouse any day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aloha,

ttt

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RAAF_Edin
06-29-2004, 10:15 PM
I must add my last night experience with TrackIR, and in particular... it's amaising advantage when flying MiG-29 (in LOMAC) and using that Helmet Mounted Boresight Mode... it is sooooo easy to lock onto enemy aircraft... and the dogfight experience in CAC is so much more rewarding. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
06-30-2004, 03:59 AM
Its a nice immersion tool but I dont think it will make you a better pilot. Tactics and a knowledge of your aircraft are the key. Track ir is good if you lost your bandit or need to find one but if that is the case then your tactics prolly let you down not your situational awareness

Just my thought on the subject