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View Full Version : Skill and ranking FH's heros.



Knight_Raime
06-28-2017, 09:08 PM
Hello all. I decided today i'd write an opinion piece instead of having the usual debates about hero balance. Today we're going to be covering skill. What types of skill for honor has, which heros are easy to pick up but hard to master, vise versa, and ranking them after determining each skill ceiling/floor. So what determines the difference between a high skill hero and a low skilled one. The different types of skill involved in what is needed to use the hero and how much of said skills. But the main thing is decision making. The number of decisions a player has to make at any given time is the main factor here. The less decisions a player has to make the smaller of a skill cap. the more the higher the skill cap.

For honor as a whole in my opinion doesn't have a hugely high skill cap to it compared to your traditional hero based games. Fighting games in general usually don't. That doesn't mean however that for honor has no skill. Or is easy to pick up. It just means where it's "difficulty" lies is not really in decision making. But instead other skills. What kind of skills are there? there are 3 main catagories: "physical skills" like dexterity, coordination, etc. "Mental skills" like observations , memorization, etc. This is where decision making goes. And "social skill" reading, an opponent, coordinating with a team, ability to influence allies.

For fighting games and for honor most of the skill in my opinion lies with physical skill, some with mental, and very little with social. For the most part in fighting games your focus is on being able to input what you are trying to input when you need to do so. Beyond that you need to be aware of the matchup, and also to an extent at a proffessional level you need to know your opponent. Being able to make the correct read and act on it consistently is how you get ahead in fighting games. So now that we understand what kind of skills exist and what is required to be successful in them lets start talking about each hero. I will start with the assassins as they are the ones I am most familiar with. DISCLAIMER: This is all based on dueling ONLY.

Assassins:

Peace keeper: Low skill floor. medium skill ceiling. It should be obvious to anyone why PK has a low skill floor. Her speed lets people get away with "mashing" up to decent levels of player skill. However there isn't any really next gen tactics with PK to master. her max punish just requires you be aware of your surroundings. She doesn't have any hidden tech to pick up either. In much higher levels the only things you really need is being able to parry/block on reaction. Which while it may be difficult to do in itself isn't something exclusive to PK. Deflect also doesn't have any optimal use for her.

Berzreker: Medium skill floor. High skill ceiling. Light spam "can" work but doesn't get you very far. You need to learn how to work your infinite combo in pretty early in order to win fights against average players. At peak level for Berzerker you also need to learn feinting both soft and hard. along with whiff punishes and knowing when to trade with your HA. on top of that the max OOS punish combo is essential against high level players. In short due to the tools available to the zerker, lack of easy in, and the amount of mind games you have to play on your opponent he's got a high skill ceiling. His deflect is worth picking up as well.

Orochi: Low skill floor. Low skill ceiling. Orochi is the easiest assassin period. His power comes from 2 attacks only. Having a very limited viable moveset. One can argue that the # of ways he can whiff punish someone and being able to read and punish is a valuable skill. I agree. however you're not really required to use anything for punishing aside from double top light. Storm rush isn't guarenteed for follow up damage and deflecting gives nothing of value. In order for Orochi's skill ceiling to go up he just needs more viable moves. and other punishes he has need to be better for certain situations. If you see an Orochi doing well in a tourney it's 90% player skill. and they'ed be much better off playing someone else.

Shinobi: High skill floor. High skill ceiling. If we were talking launch shinobi he'd be low skill floor. But since his nerf even against average players he's hard to use. Mainly due to his 90hp. and lack of confirmable damage. Shinobi like Nobushi has the ability to flow his kit into itself in a bunch of ways. and knowing when to do this and what to cancel into requires good decision making. Your low HP also gives you little room for error. His max punish is harder to do compared to any other punish IMO. and he also needs to dictate both range of engagement and the entire fight itself in order to come out on top.

Hybrids:

Lawbringer: low skill floor. Medium skill ceiling. Lawbringer in my opinion is the easiest hybrid to pick up. Block shove is brain dead easy. and at that level light after a shove is basically free unavoidable damage. His skill does pick up later on when you learn to parry and try to use the right parry follow up for the right job. Which involves reading the situation and good decision making. However since defensive play is strong at the moment. block shove is still a thing. and his moves are some what limited his current skill ceiling leaves something to be desired. I have a feeling that if we made his kit better, ditched the block shove, and defensive play was brought down he'd probably have a high skill ceiling.

Valk: Low skill floor, Medium skill ceiling. Like lawbringer she has access to an easy in for average or lower skills. light light in any direction followed by a sweep is basically free forever until you fight competent players. However her game play doesn't really peak beyond that point. A lot of her stuff is unsafe and thus can't be reliably used in higher levels. Her one mix up game (that i'm aware of) is pretty easy to read if you've fought valk long enough. Her Max OOS punish and use of her shield bash/headbutt put her above lawbringer. as both are not particularly easy to use but if you can use them you become more difficult to deal with.

Nobushi: Medium skill floor. High skill ceiling. She's got some easy of use due to her zone being really strong. and light light light being pretty reliable in average to low skilled fights. But less so compared to valk and lawbringer. Her skill ceiling is pretty dang high though. being able to transition into almost any part of your kit from another part via hidden stance is what makes this. She also is one of the few people who possess the ability to soft feint lights. Added to her unlock tech on her zone drastically speeding it up and having to make the right decision at the right time further cements her as a hard to master hero.

Centurion: Low skill floor. barely medium skill ceiling. And yes this is coming from a cent main. His harassment level is through the roof regardless of skill level. Even more so when your opponent is OOS. however due to that he's pretty easy to pick up. You have some what easy access to good confirmable damage. and you have more than one way to destroy stamina. He's just plain nightmare fuel for those who don't understand his kit or those with poor reaction/reading skill. But he doesn't take long to master either. His main skill is learning how to get in on someone to use your mix up game. But your kit is pretty limited and you've no reliable way in. and you're plain awful in neutral pretty much. So in order to get the most out of cent you really just need to be good at parrying and knowing how to maximize your punish.

Vanguards:

Warden: Medium skill floor. High skill ceiling. Warden has some what of an easy in with his fast top light and fast zone. But if you really don't know how to use and maximize shoulder bash you really won't get far. thus the medium skill floor. Maximizing your warden play is all about being able to crushing counter whenever possible and absolutely being able to read your opponent like a book to use the proper action after starting your bash. If you can't parry a light after canceling the bash you are just going to be far below good warden players. You also need good map awareness as a splat gives you a free top heavy.

Raider: Low skill floor. Low ish skill ceiling. I'll probably catch a lot of flak for this but I firmly believe raider is one of the easiest heros to play. At low levels of play parrying isn't really relevent. so your unblockable is a serious threat. same with stunning tap soft cancels. people just won't know how to handle that. At higher levels nothing really is different for the raider. You have to mind game the heck out of your opponent to just get in. Your zone isn't a threat in any circumstance. Soft feinting into stunning tap simply won't work since people will rest their guard in top. and trying to cancel into GB isn't going to catch anyone. Plainly put you can't mix up from the zone. which just leaves random thrown heavies/lights. and the occasional stun tap. Your slower speed also means some people don't even have to guess and just throw a light. even if you soft cancel into a tap it still won't be fast enough. Besides mind games the only 2 things you need to pick up is parrying since you can drain stamina with his run. and his OOS punish as it's really hard hitting. and essential if you want to win due to how hard it is to get in. He can technically dash GB. which gets him out of some things. but ultimately is too situational to rely on.

Kensei: Low skill floor. High skill ceiling. His speed of attacks and his strengths on his dash attacks are pretty intimidating for a newer player. But his kit sharply falls off the higher you go. Kensei is entirely mind games and feinting in top play. And it's because of this alone he is a high skill ceiling hero. He also has some unlock tech that speed things up for him or let him track down and punish people.

Heavies:

Conq: Medium skill floor. Medium skill ceiling. There was a time when conq was brain dead. His bash from neutral on an average level is still pretty strong. and even in high play it's hard to punish. But conq lacks a decent kit. All skill from conq comes from reading the situation. As if you slip at all you get punished pretty harshly for it. Though due to defensive play being super strong conq is propped up slightly. There isn't any tech or skill you need to learn in order to maximize him. His limited kit and some what safe play cements him as a "meh" hero.

Warlord: Medium skill floor. High skill ceiling. I know I know I can already hear your typing. warlord severely lacks...complexity. He's like the conq in that level. However you need good dexterity. Good decision making. and good match up knowledge. He's skill floor and ceiling entirely revolve around the fact that he's got an answer to every situation. In lower skill fights where the same tactic is spammed by your opponent you need not to do thinking. or decision making. you just react with whatever method works for you. However at the opposite end of things against a skilled player you need to 100% know what you can and can't do against that particular hero. and you need to be able to react to it on a dime. and also know what your opponent likes to do playstyle wise. this combined with defensive play being strong is exactly why a good warlord is so dang hard to deal with.

Shugoki: Low skill floor. Low skill ceiling. with the removal of his demon ball mix up you really don't have much to learn with him. Just knowing what to trade with is really the only skill you'll need to master with him to maximize his play. along with parrying to get you a splat for demons embrace. In lower level plays where parrying isn't prominent his damage and armor are terrors. shugoki is hands down the easiest hero in the game to use.

Wrapping up: Now that we've got that out of the way it's time to rank our heros. there are 3 ranks. high skill cap, medium skill cap, and low skill cap. I want to issue a notice here that this has absolutely no barring on which hero is "better" or more effective. as that is more relevant around the meta. Which is ever shifting. And lastly again this is just my opinion.

High skill cap: Shinobi>Warlord>Nobushi>Kensei>zerker.
Shinobi imo takes the most skill in the game bar none. He has to do everything warlord does but better. due to the lower health pool. and having to control the distance of the fight+the fight itself from start to end. Warlord requires superior reading skills to the other 3. Nobushi beats kensei out due to her mix up game being more flexible and how hidden stance also lets you evade damage. and Kensei is above zerker because zerker wins fights pretty quickly based off of the opponent making one bad read. Where as kensei it's more like a slow whittling of your opponents mind and health.

Medium skill cap: Warden>Lawbringer>conq>Valk.
Warden didn't make the cut in high skill simply because of 2 facts. He can get in easier than the high skill caps. And his read skill requirement while high isn't on the level of anyone in the high skill tier. Simply put he requires less decision making. Which means less to learn. However he still has a high degree of reading and inputing compared to the rest of the medium tier. Lawbringer is above the other 2 because he actually has the most decision making to make of everyone in this tier. even over warden. But because he highly benefits from defensive play he's easier to use. Conq is only above valk just because conq requires a good read. Valk can get away with being more aggressive because of her loop combo. If defensive play wasn't as strong as it is i'd place valk above conq hands down.

Low skill cap: Raider>Peace keeper>Orochi>Shugoki.
Raider is the the most skilled of the least skilled. He doesn't get in easy. he requires some mix up game with his feinting. And his max OOS is harder to access imo than the other 3. Peace keeper sits above Orochi simply because there is more to her kit. Getting GB's for stabs is a good thing. Where as orochi can get away with never GBing for much. Her OOS/wall punish is harder too compared to the others. But because her zone is super fast along with her lights she's easier to get in than raider. thus taking less skill. Orochi is above shugoki for one simple reason. Orochi whiff punishes. Goki trades.

And at last we've reached the end of this giant wall of text. If you've stuck it out this long I both applaud you and thank you for giving me some of your time. If you wana discuss my rankings feel free to leave a comment. Just try to stay away from meta/balance speak. This is not what this post was about. and not what the point of the list was. Some people prefer higher skill ceiling heros to play. Some prefer simpler heros where you have to specialize in a type or 2 of skill. this thread was mainly to outliine skill ceilings and define what kind of heros this game has.

dragon7jdc
06-29-2017, 12:27 AM
@Knight_Raime First of all. great post and nice detailes. before i give you my opinion, i wanna know is your ranking based on the hero's skill or the player ?
And am only gonna talk about Orochi here because he is the only hero i use since the open beta. SO If its the hero skill level. i think orochi has a high skill celing, mainly because his kit is revolved around counter attacking. he is only weak against turtles. orochi only has 10 moves.


1- Light combo
2- Light\heavy combo
3- Heavy combo

these combos is great against new players or unsuspected players if used pretty well. but you wont get much out of it and you wont always succssed in pulling it off due to the attack speed.

4- Runing attack

good for catching players off gaurd, and sometimes chasing running players.

5- Riptide strike
6- Strom rush

only for countering attacks.

7- Lightning Strike

used to initiate offenseve and great for chasing down opponents

8- Zephyr Slash

only for countering attacks.

9- Wind guts
10- Hurricane Blast

after deflects.

so you see only only 4 moves out of 10 are used for attacks. but sadly it will moslt be blocked or parried. but thats not my point here. his kit is focused on countering attacks. so for me orochi as a hero is well indeed a low skill hero. so its toattly up to the player to score the win here. as you have 3 attacks that used as a counter to punish.

TLDR: if we are talking about the hero ability to attack he is low skill level if it was a bot playing. but if its a player then being able to cause damage with predictable attacks like that. then he is surely meduim-high level ( in my opinion).

whats your take on my argument ?

Knight_Raime
06-29-2017, 12:48 AM
@Knight_Raime First of all. great post and nice detailes. before i give you my opinion, i wanna know is your ranking based on the hero's skill or the player ?
And am only gonna talk about Orochi here because he is the only hero i use since the open beta. SO If its the hero skill level. i think orochi has a high skill celing, mainly because his kit is revolved around counter attacking. he is only weak against turtles. orochi only has 10 moves.


1- Light combo
2- Light\heavy combo
3- Heavy combo

these combos is great against new players or unsuspected players if used pretty well. but you wont get much out of it and you wont always succssed in pulling it off due to the attack speed.

4- Runing attack

good for catching players off gaurd, and sometimes chasing running players.

5- Riptide strike
6- Strom rush

only for countering attacks.

7- Lightning Strike

used to initiate offenseve and great for chasing down opponents

8- Zephyr Slash

only for countering attacks.

9- Wind guts
10- Hurricane Blast

after deflects.

so you see only only 4 moves out of 10 are used for attacks. but sadly it will moslt be blocked or parried. but thats not my point here. his kit is focused on countering attacks. so for me orochi as a hero is well indeed a low skill hero. so its toattly up to the player to score the win here. as you have 3 attacks that used as a counter to punish.

TLDR: if we are talking about the hero ability to attack he is low skill level if it was a bot playing. but if its a player then being able to cause damage with predictable attacks like that. then he is surely meduim-high level ( in my opinion).

whats your take on my argument ?

To answer your first part it involves both player skill and hero skill for my ranking.
I'm not aware of what skill level you are or what you typically fight. I should have also clarified that i'm speaking from duel perspective. If you factor in actual 2v2 (not 2 1v1 duels in brawl) and 4v4 more of orochi's kit is useful. Storm rush as an example goes way up in viability. along with the dash attacks.

I rated Orochi low specifically because when you're dueling against a smart/very competent opponent your only 2 semi reliable attacks are top light and zone attack. Dash attacks are an option if you are fighting someone like centurion or shinobi because it takes priority over cents kick/kick into heavy and it takes priority over shins running slide/whiffed kick into heavy/whiffed kick into back flip. But on most heros dash attacks are too slow and usually result in being parried. including dash forward.

Beyond that top light top light does the most damage currently of his other whiff punishes. unless you can land a heavy. so there is no reason to use something like rip tide. and storm rush if they are in top guard when hit (non assassins) will block your top lights automatically. And since storm rush doesn't get you anything else I can't really recommend it considering the difficulty of using it on a whiff. His wind gust doesn't do as much damage as a parry into heavy or a parry into top light top light. It would need to offer as much damage as one of those in order to be considered a decent option in top play. And hurricane blast can be countered. they can double dodge out of it. If they try to dash attack you as an assassin you can cancel into windgust. but still. For hurricane blast to be viable it needs to be guarenteed when you deflect something specific. like zones and/or heavies.

I guess my question to you would be which mode do you primarily play? I'm not saying orochi is bad. Or unusable. I'm sorry if it came off that way. I was merely stating that because of his lack of options (against competent players in duels) and variety in worthwhile punishes there isn't much to mastering orochi. You just need to be really good at parrying.

dragon7jdc
06-29-2017, 01:04 AM
I usually play 4v4 modes. but also play 1v1 and 2v2 but hate it because people turtle and its my weak point as an orochi. ( am rep 26) but just to clarify i was also talking about 1v1 situations in my post. i agree with you, agaist smart player or turtles he is not good. but if used as a counter attacker then he is pretty annoying. i do apologize if i came out strong. wasnt my intention.just wanted to share my opinion. so bottom line is he is good as a counter attacker. but bad as defensive meta cracker. so yea i guess i agree wit you in your ranking system on the orochi part. but we have to wait to see other players comments on the rest of the heros.
and one more thing. i think heros with more useable atatcks should be considered low skill to meduim on the player part.
what do you think?

Knight_Raime
06-29-2017, 02:16 AM
I usually play 4v4 modes. but also play 1v1 and 2v2 but hate it because people turtle and its my weak point as an orochi. ( am rep 26) but just to clarify i was also talking about 1v1 situations in my post. i agree with you, agaist smart player or turtles he is not good. but if used as a counter attacker then he is pretty annoying. i do apologize if i came out strong. wasnt my intention.just wanted to share my opinion. so bottom line is he is good as a counter attacker. but bad as defensive meta cracker. so yea i guess i agree wit you in your ranking system on the orochi part. but we have to wait to see other players comments on the rest of the heros.
and one more thing. i think heros with more useable atatcks should be considered low skill to meduim on the player part.
what do you think?

Yeah that explains why you'd believe he's got more viable moves. In 1v1 (and to a lesser extent in 2v2) gameplay is slowed. people react more instead of throwing out attacks often and being aggressive. Orochi is not good at dealing with that. Thus that's why he's lower for me on my ranking list. You wrote yourself out just fine man don't sweat it. I mained orochi for the most part until the dlc heros came.

Could you elaborate on that last bit? It sounds like you're saying that if (as an example) a hero has 2 usable moves he's more skilled than a hero that's got 3 uses. Please correct me if I read that wrong. If that is what you indeed meant I would have to say...it depends on the hero. You can say that a hero with less moves available demands more skill from the players end. because you typically have huge/glaring weaknesses that are just hard to ignore. However you can also say that a hero who has a lot of options demands more skill from a player. since they need to know what to use and when.

I doubt you are familiar with paladins but i'll try to make it simple. We have 2 heros. Tyra and maldomba. Tyra is a damage role hero that has great AOE and amazing damage. but she lacks any mobility or escape tools. So it's on the player to position themselves properly and execute their attacks near flawlessly or they end up dead by flanks rather often. She's seen as a very easy hero to pick up but she falls off the higher in skill you go because the player effort put forth in order to be useful ends up not being worth it to a lot of people. She can be seen as orochi.

Where as maldomba is a support. his weapon is unique in that it has drop on it's projectiles. and a stun when you reload. the damage the stun does depends on how much ammo is missing when you reload. and it also has to be aimed properly like his projectiles. With just his weapon alone you can start to see what kind of decisions he has to make. should he go for max damage stun? or a quick stun and then retreat? should he risk his life to nail the stun for his team to clean the target out? etc. That doesn't even factor in his abilities. one which is an AOE heal that works on him and his team. it also damages and slows enemies. and it's a projectile. and another heal which is hitscan. but single target and it doesn't work on him. He's got an escape which makes him immune to damage. and covers some decent distance. but it's a short animation and a lengthy ish cooldown. and finally his ultimate is an AOE cc that fears enemies.
At any given time a maldomba player has to decide who he's attacking with his weapon and who to stun and when. where to drop his AOE heal/stun. When to escape or chase with his mobility ability. if someone deserves both heals. if he should AOE fear to save himself for being around for a big push. or if he should use it in a push. etc. Using any of his abilities also cancels his reload. which can be used to cover up an accidental use of reload or to bait someone into trying to dodge the stun.

Maldomba can be seen in For honor as shinobi.

Let me try to some this up. It entirely depends on what you consider to be a more valuable skill. If you value mechanical skills over everything else then orochi can be seen as a high skill ceiling hero. But if you are someone like me who much prefers mix ups, mind games, and meta thinking than orochi isn't a high skill ceiling hero. But just as an FYI when debating about skill ceiling/floors with people they are typically looking at how much decision making a player must make with said hero. Since skill isn't very quantifiable and there are various types of skills it's not really easy to say what does or does not take more skill.

it's far easier to have a discussion about skill ceilings/floors or "skill cap" because it's a bit easier to label.

Nexo.C
06-29-2017, 02:20 AM
Nice work. Disagree with Raider and Warlord. High skilled players get everything they need out of his moveset. Top Heavy after GB, confirmed light after headbutt, fast Zone , fast lights, great defense etc. With Raider you get much less and you have to work to get some free damage and know exactly how to punish in each situation (Damage after GB for example) . So, if you have all the tools for every situation ,why does this take Higher skill on high level play than a hero where you have to work around to punish bnecause you have not the tools for every situation?

watsonclan335u
06-29-2017, 03:26 AM
Well written piece you've done there, not much I could disagree with either. As a rep30 raider main, I agree with your placement totally as there is a distinct ceiling to his abilities. 90% of all players are beatable but a decent warden or PK of similar experience are all bit impossible to beat with him. Rochi's are never an issue for him but nobushi and LB's can be a real nightmare.

Knight_Raime
06-29-2017, 06:50 PM
Nice work. Disagree with Raider and Warlord. High skilled players get everything they need out of his moveset. Top Heavy after GB, confirmed light after headbutt, fast Zone , fast lights, great defense etc. With Raider you get much less and you have to work to get some free damage and know exactly how to punish in each situation (Damage after GB for example) . So, if you have all the tools for every situation ,why does this take Higher skill on high level play than a hero where you have to work around to punish bnecause you have not the tools for every situation?

Because the Warlord has to use the right tool for the right job. Even though he could potentially use more than one tool to answer a situation picking the most optimal one consistently. This shows that the player is good at making decisions in split seconds and knowing the match up very well. The raider doesn't really require any reading of your opponent beyond what guard their is and if the opponent has a fast enough attack to cancel his soft feint into tap. While the raider requires more skill from the player to get anywhere the skill cap on the raider isn't high You have much less to learn on the raider than you do on the warlord.

Knight_Raime
06-29-2017, 06:51 PM
Well written piece you've done there, not much I could disagree with either. As a rep30 raider main, I agree with your placement totally as there is a distinct ceiling to his abilities. 90% of all players are beatable but a decent warden or PK of similar experience are all bit impossible to beat with him. Rochi's are never an issue for him but nobushi and LB's can be a real nightmare.

Thanks for chiming in as a raider main. he's one of the few heros i've not spent much time on. So it's good to know my analysis is still some what accurate.