PDA

View Full Version : The most dagerous kinda type of job or carier for a WW2 pilot, post your opinions.



adadaead
05-28-2004, 07:44 AM
I'm thinking the most dangreous ones is the Russian torpedo carriers pilots, well i don't know what the word for a plane that caried torpedos is, russians called them torpedo cariers. So why- those squadrons or whatever where stationed in the north by the ocean and seas, so their job was to attack enemy ships. They were design only for that. The kind of plane they flew wasn't the Il-2 it was bigger because it had a crew of 3 or 4, don't know how it called maybe someone have an idea (pilot,radioman,bombardier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) and basicly when you have to fly at low alttitudes in a big plane straight at the ship whith all its AA guns firing at you, well you're a sweet target for those AA gunners, so basicly only if you had luck you could survive a mission, just by luck. Let me say that again big, low altitude, ALL AA firing at you and your going straightahead at the ship.
I based this info by a russian movie called "Torpedo Carriers".
Post your opinion on the MOST dangerous carriers for pilots during WW2, i know all of them are dangerous but post those ones where only pilots had to have luck instead of exprience to surivive.

Oh yeah explain the plane and what was it jobs with intention that reader don't know what plane your talking about and what was it job. Explain the reason why you think they are one of the most dangerous.



Peace out, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be."

[This message was edited by adadaead on Fri May 28 2004 at 07:07 AM.]

[This message was edited by adadaead on Fri May 28 2004 at 07:09 AM.]

adadaead
05-28-2004, 07:44 AM
I'm thinking the most dangreous ones is the Russian torpedo carriers pilots, well i don't know what the word for a plane that caried torpedos is, russians called them torpedo cariers. So why- those squadrons or whatever where stationed in the north by the ocean and seas, so their job was to attack enemy ships. They were design only for that. The kind of plane they flew wasn't the Il-2 it was bigger because it had a crew of 3 or 4, don't know how it called maybe someone have an idea (pilot,radioman,bombardier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif) and basicly when you have to fly at low alttitudes in a big plane straight at the ship whith all its AA guns firing at you, well you're a sweet target for those AA gunners, so basicly only if you had luck you could survive a mission, just by luck. Let me say that again big, low altitude, ALL AA firing at you and your going straightahead at the ship.
I based this info by a russian movie called "Torpedo Carriers".
Post your opinion on the MOST dangerous carriers for pilots during WW2, i know all of them are dangerous but post those ones where only pilots had to have luck instead of exprience to surivive.

Oh yeah explain the plane and what was it jobs with intention that reader don't know what plane your talking about and what was it job. Explain the reason why you think they are one of the most dangerous.



Peace out, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be."

[This message was edited by adadaead on Fri May 28 2004 at 07:07 AM.]

[This message was edited by adadaead on Fri May 28 2004 at 07:09 AM.]

BuzZz_WG
05-28-2004, 07:56 AM
That sound very dangerously. I wouldn't like to be a tailgunner in a small-bomber like a stuka or IL-2. No control at all, it's just you and your gun, the enemy coming in fast on your six and hopefully a lot of luck.

BREAK! BREAK!
Nevermind...

Huckebein_UK
05-28-2004, 07:58 AM
One of three: 1. VVS bomber crew, 1941.
or 2. Fairey Battle crew 1940
or 3. Bristol Beaufort torpedo crew

--------------
Huckebein_UK
http://www.fpscentral.com/uploads/sig_copy17.jpg
http://www.fpscentral.com/uploads/sig1_copy2.jpg
Il2skins.com for skins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BitwiseOp
05-28-2004, 08:07 AM
#1 has gotta be Japanese kamikaze pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Boulton Paul Defiant crews were pretty screwed after the 109 pilots figured them out.

But apart from that, I think proportionately it was the heavy bomber crews that suffered the most... gotta fly straight and level and in formation while everyone unloads on you... not my idea of fun at all.

LilHorse
05-28-2004, 11:46 AM
Assuming you want to survive (unlike a Kamekazi pilot) I'd say being a pilot or gunner in a Sturmovik. They really got shot down in droves. That or as was mentioned being in the crew of a heavy. Total flack and fighter terror.

Veltro25
05-28-2004, 01:07 PM
Be a Italian Aerosiluranti crew.

spwccially because the british de-encripted the german and Italian secret codes, so they were expecting for every attack the axis would launch against their convoys. beside that, they operate most of their missions without fighter escort or hopelessy outnumbered. you have to be veru brave or be insane to do that job every day.

Avanti bersaglieri

Veltro25

JJaguar
05-28-2004, 02:07 PM
I'd say it would be a pilot of any of the Allied heavy bombers. The full tour of duty for a bomber crew was 25 missions, and the vast majority didn't make it that far. Loss rate was around 80%.

boxmike
05-28-2004, 02:38 PM
Hornet's(?) VT-8 in Battle of Midway. One ensign survived the torpedo run harassed completely by Zeros. The point is, acft was TBD Devastator, forerunner of TBF Avenger and totally obsolete at time. VT-8 bought that time to divebombers (SBD Dauntless) which had only ship flak against them due Japanese fighters being low after hunting TBDs. Rest is history.
Of course, as a Finn I could mention a sole Blackburn Ripon sent out to recon in bright daylight a major Soviet base at Paldisk in Estonia during Winter War.

Friendly_flyer
05-28-2004, 02:45 PM
I agree with first poster reguarding torpedo bombers. Only I think the most dangerous torpedo job was flying a Swordfish. Now, imagine attacking a boat bristling with ac-ac, at insainly slow speed (giving the enemy all the time in the world to aim), in a plane made from wood, rope and canvas and allmost no armour.

And yet they did it, and they even sunk quite a few ships!

Fly friendly!

Petter B├┬Şckman
Norway

taras_zh
05-28-2004, 02:53 PM
I would agree with BuzZz_WG, probably it is Il-2 rear gunner.

boxmike
05-28-2004, 03:03 PM
--------
Only I think the most dangerous torpedo job was flying a Swordfish.
--------
Yes, thx for that one Friendly. Lt.Cmdr.Eugene Esmonde got DSO during Bismarck operations, VC posthumously after attack with 12(?) Swordfishes against German battlecruisers during Channel Dash. Ship protectors were FW190's at that time and Spits were already tied up with rest of cover. Read some book about that and that part was quite shivering.

LeadSpitter_
05-28-2004, 05:22 PM
certain bgs of b17 crews, they were pretty much sent to get the luftwaffe off the ground late war. They had groups that just flew for diversions to be attacked, to get fighters away from the orginal targets that would be hit by other groups.

Especially the unescorted missions.

I would agree the same for lancaster and halifax pilots, same with the stuka he111 bf110 ju88 do217 pe2 and il2

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

LEXX_Luthor
05-28-2004, 05:27 PM
Japanese Kamikaze pilot, possibly most dangerous way of life.

second, mmm maybe MiG~1 pilot in 1940. Almost all 100 made crashed before Germans came.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
05-28-2004, 05:32 PM
Up until mid 1943 or so, something like 7 IL2 gunners were killed for every IL2 pilot killed. Then consider how many pilots were being killed, it's not a nice chance.

And then what about the night witches flying Po-2s??

Or how about being a raw recruit sent to yer first IAP with barely 7 hours of flight training in a Po-2, and you are handed a high performance fighter aircraft and are expected not to die.

Or how about being a test pilot for the german ejector seat experiments?

Or flying Stukas against the soviet offensive against the Seelowe heights in 1945 outnumbered about 30-1 or something?

I'm sure there are many many more.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg
Za Rodinu!

JG27_Arklight
05-28-2004, 05:35 PM
Japanese night-time propeller cleaner guy

and

Asst. Japanese night-time propeller cleaner guy

Ark

Everybody is a Christian in a foxhole. -R.I.
------------
2.4C @ 3.6 Default Volt.
ASUS P4C800-E (Rev. 11)
1GB Mushkin PC3500 LvL2 Black @ 2-2-2-5
Radeon 9800XT (Cat. 4.3)
SB Augigy Gamer
Antec True550
Zalman 7000A-CU HSF
4 Case fans/1 120mm Blowhole

Kamikaze_Gibbon
05-28-2004, 05:42 PM
Assuming kamikaze pilots are ruled out, I would tend to agree with those who said IL-2 rear gunner (especially in the early war years) and heavy bomber crewmen.

As already mentioned, an IL-2 pilot would go through on average 7 rear gunners in his 'career' (which was probably not that long anyway).

As for the crew of the heavies, well - flak + determined German aviators in heavy cannon armed 109s and 190s, I think that says it all!

[Edit] Saying that, any job which puts you in the front line is d@mn dangerous in my book.

ASM 1
05-28-2004, 06:10 PM
ME 163 Pilot or Test pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif if things go wrong with that engine you get 'dissolved' alive http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif... Not nice...
Also the ME 262 was not without its engine troubles... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif Walter Nowotony anyone? he went out in a faulty one or whatever (can't remember exactly) got shot up and burned... all that was left (apparently) was his Knights Cross and some teeth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

comne to think of it any of the early jets must have been pretty dicey at some point....

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-28-2004, 06:17 PM
These Me~262 pilots generally were very experienced pilots. Now put I~16 and I~153 pilots into Mig~1 and the result would be, and was, alot worse--even in Peacetime. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

horseback
05-28-2004, 08:28 PM
Torpedo bomber crews flying off any carrier, but especially the little 'jeep' carriers had the all-time hairiest flying job in WWII. First, you take off from a carrier (most takeoffs in those ships were done without a catapult launch because they took too long; escorts and other a/c in the strike group would burn up all their fuel waiting for everyone to get launched), then you navigate long distances over water in radio silence, hoping that your leader had some idea of where the heck you were going, and that your target hadn't moved too far from his expected position.

With good luck, you don't get jumped by enemy fighters escorting their strike group going after your ships as they pass by. Then you attack enemy ships bristling with AAA, surrounded by destroyers & cruisers also bristling with AAA, plus the enemy Combat Air Patrol, flying low and relatively slow on a predictable course so that your torpedo won't break up when you drop it into the water, and maybe hit the enemy ship (and explode; early US torps were notoriously unreliable), then you have to avoid dropping into the ocean or running into your target ship (capital ships are BIG, and they stick way high out of the water).

Having done that, you then have to work your way out of the enemy fleets' area, without getting shot down, and avoid the defending enemy a/c. THEN you have to figure out where the heck you are, figure out where your carrier is, and maybe join up with other returning aircraft from your strike group on the way back. Even if you do get into the vicinity of your ships, you might not spot where they are if they are concealed under clouds or a weather front, or if it's a bit misty...

Then you have to worry about whether you have enough fuel to make it back to your ships' vicinity, and maybe even enough to land on your own ship while waiting for the damaged planes and those with wounded crew aboard to try to land first.

IF you've done all that, then you have to land a big ungainly aircraft (the TBF, for example, was nicknamed the 'Turkey' by its crewmen) on a tiny wooden airstrip approximately 60m long by 20m wide moving up and down while traveling at 10 to 15 knots away from you when the light is starting to fail, you're dog tired, and if your bladder isn't about to explode, then you've probably p!ssed all over yourself and your cockpit trying to use the relief tube.

Then you get to land and if you survive that, find out how many of your buddies died.

A profoundly crappy job, but still a hell of an improvement over being a combat infantryman.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

LEXX_Luthor
05-28-2004, 09:04 PM
mmm, not WW2 but Zeppelin crews had it bad too late in WW1.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

ThanasisK
05-28-2004, 11:12 PM
VVS ground attack, especially during 41-42 (lack of rear gunner, field modifications that shot flight characteristics to hell and poor construction quality due to Soviet heavy industry relocation). That or a Ju-52 pilot. Ju-52s were shot down in droves during the air invasion of Crete (1941), some statistics make it as high as as 1 out of 3 was a combat loss (Read Anthony Beevor's Crete for an account of the invasion, australian troops on the mountains were practically firing at level with Ju-52). And Crete was a walk in the park compared to Stalingrad or other major air supply operations of the war. If one keeps in mind that the German Army was depending a lot on these airplanes thus there were plenty of them around and while a good transport plane, it was very easy to shoot down using flak or even obsolete fighter aircraft and that they were a priority target (take one out and undermine supplies for the all important ground war, much more effective than downing a fighter plane), I wouldn't want to pilot one of these (guess the guys flying them were not really happy about it either). At least in a fighter or heavy bomber you can always shoot back, even as a psychological factor (Unescorted B-17 anyone?). Oh yeah, and how many transport pilots we have ever heard of?

Kefuddle
05-29-2004, 12:52 AM
Of the regular missions that wern't meant to be suicide missions Pathfinders had, by far and away, the hardest time.

It was their job to fly in ahead of the attack and mark the targets with flares for the following bombers. Not just the targets, but the various paths with different colours leading to the target for the various bomber squadrons operating. Mosquitos were often used.

JG27_Dacripler
05-29-2004, 06:07 AM
Kamikazi pilots don't even rate because they knew their fate from the onset of the mission, they knew of the sacrefice for their country was a one-way ticket.
My vote was the WW2 Carrier Aviation because it was dangerous from the onset of the mission; Fly off a ship and land on a ship. No brainer. I can't think of why anyone would deny this? I mean anyone who would step aside from their nationalism for a moment and look at the horror of the men who simply got lost and never came home..
I think if you realize the amount of Pilots who had motor problems and dropped into the shark infested waters of Pacific, then never were rescued. Those who were spotted by the enemy were subjected to brutal conditions afterwards.
Also, the fellows who actually survive a mission feared the actual landing aboard their carrier if it was not being attacked or even sunk.
I have a certain respect for those young KIDS who became MEN in one mission to achieve the task. An aircraft carrier laden with explosives and fuel. Then to fly an under-powered aircraft loaded with fuel and ammunition to hostile territory, obtain their goal then hobble back to a postage stamp in the middle of the ocean.
These Aviatiors to this day still deserve the recognition of the most dangerous job.

The Lufftwaffe in second because of the amount of missions they undertook in order to obtain their supremecy. They were round the clock Aviators never wasting time to fly fly fly.. They too had to suffer both open seas and the hostilities of landing in hostile territory. They had longer distances to go and had to rely more on experience and luck.

Third was ANY bomber crew.. Your escorts were your "guardian angels" once they were overtaken your hope of machine gunners and lots of luck was on your side. Bomber pilots are a rare breed and many fighter jocks snub them for their jobs, however without the bombers the infrastruture of war and the ease of flying would not be possible. They took out the convoys, ammo depots, tanks, bridges, aircraft, and manufacturing plants. They had a job and did it quite well..
(It is intresting to note that even in Modern warfare the truth holds.. During the cold war the Russians were capable of high thrust and very fast bombers however, were NOT capable of long distance. They attempted but later admitted after Soviets failed to find an answer to the B-1 and later B-2 bombers)

Mike_Green
05-29-2004, 06:31 AM
These figures, from "The right of the Line" by John Terraine, may be of interest
Percentage chance of surviving two tours in the RAF (1942)
Torpedo Bomber 3
Light bombers 6.5
Fighter Reconnaissance 9.5
Night Fighter 15
Bomber Reconnaisance 17.5
Day Fighter 18.5
Heavy & Medium Bombers 19.5
Light GR Landplane 20
Medium GR Landplane 31.5
Long Range Fighter 35.5
Sunderland Flying Boat 43.5
Heavy GR Landplane 50.5
Catalina Flying Boat 60

Previously known round these parts as mikeyg007

ptegomerpyle
05-29-2004, 07:04 AM
I dont know if we catapult launched convoy escorts on the Murmansk convoys, but if we did, id guess that was pretty hairy.

http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v32/PrivatePyle/minge.jpg

ASM 1
05-29-2004, 07:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
These Me~262 pilots generally were very experienced pilots. Now put I~16 and I~153 pilots into Mig~1 and the result would be, and was, alot worse--even in Peacetime. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif Point taken, but sometimes very experienced pilots can have serious problems if the machine is unreliable or volatile in any way - even Galland had to jump out his 262 when the mechanics started it because of an engine fire. Experience doesn't account for unreliability - that was the point I was trying to make and why I would not have liked to have been a ME 163 test pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

S!

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

koivis
05-29-2004, 10:34 AM
I'd say that it was very dangerous to meet Ilmari Juutilainen or Hasse Wind in air, especially if you were poorly-trained russian pilot. Those guys had only B-239s during 41-43, and still they had over 30 kills with them. BTW, the B-239's kill ratio was over 1:15.

DeBaer.534
05-29-2004, 10:44 AM
Well, the most dangerous thing must have been being the first test pilot of the Bachem Ba 349 Natter(, who died during the first flight...). Or being in the german late-war commando were B├╝cker B├╝181 would attack advancing russian tanks with Panzerfausts mounted on and underneath their wings.
Image flying a weak, unarmored trainer in late war against allied air superiority, with usually 210kph max. speed, add the drag of the Panzerfausts, and the attack groundforces.

Inadaze
05-29-2004, 10:54 AM
The bottom turret gunners had it bad (this is particularly in B17s). Often the turret would get damaged and the gunner would be sealed inside. (Hydraulics getting shot).

It wasn't uncommon for a bus to crashland with no gear (Cos of the damaged hydraulics I guess)with the poor bottom turret gunner trapped inside his station getting crushed.

Hence the bottom turret became the least favourite gun position on B17s.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif ~ Inadaze
S

ELEM
05-29-2004, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I based this info by a russian movie called "Torpedo Carriers".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The film you are refering to is actually called "Torpedo Bombers" (1983) by Semyon Aranovich.
I have it on DVD from RUSCICO here:-
http://www.ruscico.com/

The a/c are IL-4's. It's a very good film, only let down by some shaky model work, but the film of the real IL-4's is great. Highly recommended.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

DaBallz
05-29-2004, 11:45 AM
According the the book "A strategy for defeat, The Luftwaffe"
your odds in bomber command over all were 20%
that you would not be killed or in some way a casuality.
The odds in the Luftwaffe day fighter west were
worse. If you were a rookie in 1941 your odds
were under 1% of survival (in one piece) to the end.
Early USAAC/USAAF bomber survival was also very bad.
With a loss rate of 5% you stood a negative chance
of surviving your first 25 missions.

I disagree that the kamakazi was not a job.
A large number of those pilots returned and
flew many missions.
Contrary to popular beliefe Kamakazis were ordered
to make suicide runs ONLY on worthwhile targets.
It may seem incredable, but your odds and
as a result, your loss ratio for sinking enemy
ships with Kamakazi's compare favorably
with non kamakazi attacks.
Most of us prefer to believe we can survive the mission.

As far as the most dangerous job for a guy
who is not supposed to face the enemy in direct
combat I would suggest aircraft carrier deck hands.
Those props were deadly.

I feel the overall "winners" are the German day fighter pilots.
They were generally written off on their first mission.

Da...