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View Full Version : What I liked about BGE1 compared to what I've seen for BGE2 so far.



StJohn3D
06-26-2017, 04:55 PM
What I liked about BG&E1

Open World - discovery & exploration
Strong Female Lead who was NOT sexualized
Dealt with mature themes: Raising kids, Making an honest living to pay bills, Person Trafficking (They weren't all human)
Strong sense of cultural diversity both aesthetically and via accents (Loved the Jamaican guys at Mammago)
Fun characters full of personality
General fun and optimistic atmosphere
Family friendly game I enjoyed as an adult and would still let my kids play


What I like about what we've seen so far in BG&E2

Open World - discovery & exploration
Strong sense of cultural diversity both aesthetically and via accents
Fun characters full of personality
General fun and optimistic atmosphere


What I DON'T like about what we've seen so far in BG&E2

VERY IMMATURE: Excessive cleavage and swearing, lost it's moral compass (Please, that is old hat, insulting and disgraceful. Grow up!)

The first BG&E was successful without stooping to these juvenile tactics. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was because it didn't insult our intelligence with those cheap tricks that it was such a success. The first BG&E was mature AND tasteful. It was culturally sensitive and respectful to women. It was enjoyable for ALL ages. Please don't loose that. The first BG&E had substance, I cared for those orphans and was actually sad I couldn't visit them anymore when the game was over. I wanted to know why the one orphan was so shy and kept to herself. I wanted see all of their smiling faces when Jade returned victorious. I actually wish there had been more interaction between Jade and the orphans.

What was great about Jade
Jade was a strong female lead. She wasn't sexualized. And the game starts out with her saving orphans and needing to pay an electric bill. Then she takes up an honest living as a photographer to pay said electric bill. These are actually mature themes, and they help inspire young girls in ways Wonder Woman never will. The whole game had a good moral compass, it was bold. That is what made the game great. Not the open world, not grit, not cleavage teasing, not excessive swearing, not stealing or pirating.

Closing thoughts
I get that you're creating a game where people will get to create their own character and role-play a lot more. That's fine, but don't loose what was great about BG&E1. If people want to play the game like criminals fine. But the game should be just as fun to play as a hero freelancer. Someone who works with the police, not fighting them. Someone who earns an honest living via photography, delivering goods, protecting city officials etc... The game should have strong female characters who we'd want our daughters to look up to. And the game should be something I feel comfortable playing around my wife and kids / letting my kids play.

CulturalLemur
06-26-2017, 06:37 PM
Personally I don't really care that much about the fact that Shani and Knox surely killed a lot of cops during their escape because of one reason and one reason only: Nathan Drake. I know, it's a lazy way of approaching this subject, but I don't want to treat everything in a very serious manner. Sometimes you just have to turn a blind eye to some stuff.

Swearing doesn't bother me in the slightest since Michel Ancel emphasized that they don't want to turn BG&E into Mafia. Curses won't be as common as many people already assumed.

FlorianRex
06-26-2017, 08:07 PM
I think the mature content is not bad at all, all games have a bit of sexuality, and the B:G&E have one character like this, Mei for example, but the problem it isn┤t very visible because the game are make by pixels and boxes :v (2003 games xD), and B:G&E is a BIG world with different people and races, and they can't do only people with long clothes like jackets or big pants, the game need a pinch of sexy people, like the rich people, poor, bad people (criminals) .... So, I know, you don't want a sexualited game but it's necessary for be a good game with a good balance between social classes. (sorry for poop english, I learn with this forum a lot xD)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go and visit the B:G&E 2 POLL!!!
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1689737-How-do-you-want-to-be-Beyond-Good-and-Evil-2-(POLL)

Regards, Florian.

Wi1d.Card
06-26-2017, 08:52 PM
Yeah, it;s not like all the characters will be like this. Diversity is a key

WiwarK9
06-26-2017, 08:54 PM
Oh bO¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤ i'm going to have fun with that.


"Strong Female Lead who was NOT sexualized"
So if you enter an underground mafia lead by a pig you expect to have lady dresses as if they were attending a meeting ? or maybe you could expect some *****es and ******s ?
just saying


"VERY IMMATURE: Excessive cleavage and swearing, lost it's moral compass (Please, that is old hat, insulting and disgraceful. Grow up!)"
The character Knox was a slave he grew up with slaves your language will not be on point if you were abused
we will get to the excessive cleavage later


"respectful to women"
So again how does the trailer is disrepecful to women ? the character who bring the mdisk is a women the leader of the ship is a women what do you want to hear " i respect all woman " during the trailer to convince you ?


"Jade was a strong female lead. She wasn't sexualized"
Oh bo´ when i look at her tight *** i'm having a raging yukulÚlÚ.


"Not the open world, not grit, not cleavage teasing, not excessive swearing, not stealing or pirating."
You want a film ? you should have asked for a film
I find it great to have a game that go out of his zone of comfort, or do you prefer the 19th call of duty ? or the 50th fifa ?



" Someone who works with the police, not fighting them. "
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA so what you are saying me if the police is rule by an underground organisation lead by a pig you are gonna work with the police ? that's some great **** you want to teach to your kid he will grew up like a great man


"The game should have strong female characters who we'd want our daughters to look up to."
Yes and it's not because there are 1 women who happen to have bigger boobs than others that it will mean all women will just be like that...


"And the game should be something I feel comfortable playing around my wife and kids / letting my kids play."
Agree but before or after he is done playing gta ?
jokes appart i don't agree and here is why
We grew up the game is been out since 15 years and i want to have a serious game who don't half treat his subject
exemple: you want to talk about slavery, you must inclue sex slaves AND OH WAIT LI DAIYU IS ACTUALLY A "Rejuvenated madam who runs Zhou’s backrooms" WHAT A COINCIDENCE A SEXUALIZED CHARACTER WHO RUN A SEXUAL PLACE DOES THAT MEAN THE GAME IS AWARE OF HOW DID HE PORTRAY THIS CHARACTER OH WOW I AM REALLY SURPRISED TO SEE SUCH A PLOT TWIST.

There are so many ways to give the same feeling as beyond & evil 1 but you keep focusing on the wrong point


"In fact, I firmly believe that the mere option to play base and ruthless criminals would kill off any spirit that Beyond Good & Evil's story ever had"
"Beyond Good & Evil was, before anything else, about the main character's empathy. Take that away, and you're left with nothing"
Do not worry i don't know were Ancel said it but there will be i think some kind of affection point between you and your ship members so we can assume if you do enough things to make them disagree they could leave your ship and leave you alone.

Edit: Added Quote tag for more readability

WiwarK9
06-26-2017, 09:59 PM
"First of all, good stories play with our expectations, they don't necessarily fulfill them. Second, the criticism of stereotypical representation is necessarily a criticism that focuses on details. An element can be perceived as problematic without condemning the entire work of art. St.John voiced valid criticism and concerns."

Ok i get your point but still here is the description of Li Daiyu "Rejuvenated madam who runs Zhou’s backrooms" we could easily guess that she rejuvenated herself because of her atributes. You can still expect something elses but i'm sure the point of St;John is why here boobs are so big...


"If sex slavery is a theme of the game, and it can well be, I'm excited to see how it is handled. We've seen dozens of games that included a brothel and sex trafficing just to show off some girls' sexualized and objectified bodies. If the theme gets the same treatment in BG&E2 as in other games, from Hitman to GTA to the Witcher, I will be very annoyed. I don't think it will happen quite this way though. "

Completely agree would love to see some previous sex slaves in your ship members, and maybe locked character if you play a male charachter, it would be interesting


"Suit yourself. Cargo pants don't particularly empasize the *** though. Which is one of the many reasons why Jade is not sexualized. "

First i think you know it was a joke but my point is in a world were everykind of fetish exist wich character is not considered by many as sexualized ?


"Killing is OK, y'all" is a convention of moral opportunism and stereotypical game design. Making that stance, showing the consideration and the empathy, THAT's going out of your comfort zone as a game designer. Nobody said it would be easy. Beyond Good & Evil pulled it off marvellously."

Ok so you don't get my point here is what i responded to

"Not the open world, not grit, not cleavage teasing, not excessive swearing, not stealing or pirating."

I don't see where i talked about killing people and by the way Ancel said in one of his interview that his city did not contain any add hologram because it was a spiritual city, we could say that this is maybe a city lead by the bad guys considering how the police is easily manipulated, not that killing a lot of people is good but remember they did not shoot those missiles and it's still a trailer here to show off some action


"The observation is correct, though note that the original Beyond Good & Evil showed Jade working with the local authorities, namely animal preservation, Hillys' governor and even the leftovers of the dismantled Hillyan army. "

Watch the beyond good and evil 1 trailer and tell me if you see anything about the mayor


"They evidently don't get to play Grand Theft Auto."

I don't want to be your kid ... gta vice city was the **** when i was a kid


"Beyond Good & Evil WAS a serious game precisely for giving a **** about these questions and considerations."

Didn't say the contrary just that i didn't want it to be the case for this game.

But hey remember guys the domz still exist i hope we get something close to the floods on halo 1

Edit: Added some spaces and quote

gorkslasher
06-26-2017, 10:26 PM
I take OPs point. I think it would be a shame BGE2 went full Laura Croft. I wasn't that worried watching the trailer mostly given how Dakini does seem to mirror Yade and that she was not particularly sexualized in the trailer. I think it is contextualization. Knox cursing works for me-. That an underworld character may be sexualized does make some sense. Why Shani needs to be as cleaved as she is I do not know. In short it is to be seen. I hope that "trying to be more commercially successful" is not going to be equivalent to amping up the overall sex-appeal (aka cleavage and leggage) of female characters.

From the trailer I gather that BGE2 will not be rated G. For me it's a bit of a paradox and not automatically a problem, but I won't be playing it with kids so I can see how that's different for someone else. Because BGE1 had violence which in my view is actually more objectionable than numerous things (like the occasional curse word) that tend to raise ratings up. I do hope that BGE2 can capture the vibe of BGE1 which was indeed very upbeat and positive even in the dystopian backdrop. For me the BGE2 trailer left this possibility definitely open.

Colerinho
06-27-2017, 10:12 AM
Unless they are making a kid game, they will go to some mature themes. And with mature themes come mature characters. That doesn't mean every single character with use a cuss word every sentence and not every female character will have almost no clothes. But with slaves and corruption being a big theme, it comes with imperfect characters. Characters that have been abused. Criminals. Murderers. Adult workers. And in a realistic setting, we won't see all of them talking perfect and 100% cuss free language. Now the trailer might've showed us the complete opposite, but maybe that's because they want to show us that things have changed a bit. And we've only seen like 5 characters. It doesn't mean every character will talk like this.

But for example Knox, he's a pirate. He's been used as a slave, probably abused. We can't expect him to act like Jade. And if they make him act like Jade, it will be very unrealistic and I can't imagine an abused (probably tortured/mentally broken) pirate that talks and acts like Jade. But that doesn't mean there will be *other* (if not most other) characters we will meet in BGE2 that will act and talk friendly.

A nice thing for me would be a kid friendly mode. Because that was a big selling point of the first one for me. They should give us the option to choose. They can filter those "*****" out for other kid friendly words. Just record some additional voice lines, that's it. Then kids can still enjoy this and I would like every kid to have a game like BGE to be part of their childhood the same way it was for me.

***Edited for content - please don't bypass the auto-censor, it's there for a reason - thanks bitebug2003

CulturalLemur
06-27-2017, 12:37 PM
I absolutely understand the sentiment (and enjoyed Uncharted 4 for the first time just this month), but in this case, I believe a moral dimension, a depth is lost to a franchise that formerly defined it.

I absolutely understand your point of view, but every time I see someone touching upon this subject I can't help but go back to the moments in BG&E1 when Jade was disposing of Alpha Sections in a pretty savage manner (she was making them explode, what a cruel thing to do!) and killing the **** out of supposedly endangered animals like medusas. Human beings > humans that are "no longer human"/animals, sure, but this is something even Ancel made fun of during Devs Play episode featuring BG&E, no kidding.

Have you ever completed a "non-lethal" playthrough of Jade's adventure? :D

***Edited for content - please don't bypass the auto-censor, it's there for a reason - thanks bitebug2003

Wi1d.Card
06-27-2017, 01:50 PM
They want to show people that this game is clearly not for kids.
I played the first one in 2010 only because my friend forced me to play. Before that I always thought this game is for little girls. Maybe one of the reasons why sales of the game was so poor because everyone thought it's a kid game. And now they don't want the second game to be a second "commercial disappointment"

bitebug2003
06-28-2017, 01:30 PM
Everyone,

Even though the trailer is riddled with profanity, the forums rules state:


This forum also uses a language filter to remove words that we consider inappropriate for use here. Such words will be replaced with asterisks (*) or other characters. Working around this swear filter in any way, including using asterisks or acronyms, is still considered swearing and therefore not permitted.

As per the rules (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/907678-Forum-Rules?p=10142070&viewfull=1#post10142070)

So please post properly.

Thanks.

Telemanus
06-28-2017, 11:59 PM
It seems you can play the missions how you would like it. I think you have the option of not killing 10.000 cops, but doing it the decent way. And if Knox hates me for that, I'll kick him off my spaceship. Simple.

At least I think that is possible going from what Ancel said.

DayumSon21
06-29-2017, 02:51 PM
Why not swearing?
It's good for the soul! :D

They are pirates, dammit!

StJohn3D
06-29-2017, 07:01 PM
I hope that "trying to be more commercially successful" is not going to be equivalent to amping up the overall sex-appeal (aka cleavage and leggage) of female characters.
My point exactly!

StJohn3D
06-29-2017, 07:29 PM
To all the respondents who think I'm allergic to swearing let me clarify. On the one hand, I would love to have another kid friendly game like BG&E1, something next gen that my kids could grow up with. That said, as an adult I still really enjoyed playing BG&E1. My concern here is that, in trying to improve sales for BG&E2, some corporate people think amping up the swearing and sex-appeal is the answer. It isn't.

I wasn't even talking about KNOX, I was mainly talking about the writing for ZHOU YUZHU. He seams like a smart guy, must be to manipulate the police. When characters start talking and every other word is the F word. I just roll my eyes. It sounds so immature, like a dumb middle-schooler who just learned the word and wants to use it all the time to be "cool". Seriously buy a dictionary and throw some bigger words in there. That whole scene with ZHOU YUZHU and the boob girl was very crass - look it up.

BG&E1 dealt with very real very mature themes with class. Showing that actions speak louder than words. Another fine example is the show firefly. All Captain Reynolds says is "darn" but he makes it a thousands times more powerful than ZHOU YUZHU's constant f-bombing with his actions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IksDrZDV0bE

P.S. To the writers' credit, "Grab my chassis Knoxy" is a great line. Loved it! :)

WiwarK9
06-29-2017, 07:57 PM
To all the respondents who think I'm allergic to swearing let me clarify. On the one hand, I would love to have another kid friendly game like BG&E1, something next gen that my kids could grow up with. That said, as an adult I still really enjoyed playing BG&E1. My concern here is that, in trying to improve sales for BG&E2, some corporate people think amping up the swearing and sex-appeal is the answer. It isn't.

Try to improves the sales of BG&E2 ... Dude what do you think this is your another assassin't creed ? where everything have to bring money ?
Let me tell you 2 or 3 things
When Beyond good and evil was develloped they created the Jade engine who was used on the trilogy Prince of persia who later was the reason assassin's creed existed.
When i was a kid and saw Prince of persia the sand of time i was like "DAMN this game look good even the gameplay is awesome" and if we follow the same logic the motor engine Voyager is here to stay. Also don't forget the ubi framework art who is also a stuning 2D game engine

Why did i talk about the engine, simple i wanted to show you that Ancel and his team are given freedom and ressources to create what they want even if it's new

Now let's talk about BGE2 the game was already planned in 2009 but it did not please Michel ancel and decided to forget the idea until he can do it.
Does corporate will really let some french guy waste 2 years of their time to come out and say "mmmmmh no i will do it later"

What i think is the trailer is here to show us that this IS a different game i don't think Ancel is dumb enough to show you the trailer you want and after you buy the game be deceived by the game itself.

I know that you must be afraid of how the game will come but let's face it, we are talking about something else if you fell in love with the characters (jade, pey'j), the story, you will find none of that on this BGE2 (Ancel said he can compare the game to Zelda BOTW), but for me who fell in love with the world and the concept of mutliple gameplay, i am more than satisfied by every thing who were shown to us.

Legion-495
06-29-2017, 08:24 PM
Let's be real. We talk about issues that do most likely not exist yet.
We have not seen a singel NPC and or heared voice lines from the actual game. Neither did we see combat.

I totally agree with walikour on that matter.
Despite the time that just went into the idea of the game itself there was probably also a lot planning involved, which leads me to believe that everything goes rock solid with plan. Since Ancel and his team have the freedom they will use it. It's not a game streched over multiple groups of devs.
It is one small team^^ And professionals too.

Characters aside like walikour said. This games main purpose is to establish a new world for Beyond Good&Evil.
Like Zelda BOTW did for itself again. Yet we have actually nothing to go on other than the bogieman this thread started to go about.
That basicly goes for most of the threads^^ It's about to wait and drink tea if you ask me until Ancel or Team says something to us(or shows something).
I'm a bit annoyed almost everyone takes the trailer for rock solid facts. IMO just a indicator and does not reflect the game.
How even would you that early in development?
The hardest thing will be in the time until we get a first demo to stay here and recheck if anything new happend everyday. If we have the demo we have something to go about.
Until then I could not even say what I like more on the first compared to the second title of the series. Either way I have my expectations quite low right now due to MassEffect... which hurt ma soul(IMO the spaceships already looked super nice in BGE2 engine tho), but I hope for the best.


AND super offtopic. Rick and Morty should air this summer too.
May I ask what you focus on during the time BGE2 is in development?
I'll be hunting for a Sapphire RX Vega GPU(Actually for this game xD)
Watch Rick and Morty
And maybe I try my friends Vive because I could only test it 10 mins.
And gotta keep watchin Doctor Who xD

CulturalLemur
07-01-2017, 07:17 AM
What I DON'T like about what we've seen so far in BG&E2

VERY IMMATURE: Excessive cleavage and swearing, lost it's moral compass (Please, that is old hat, insulting and disgraceful. Grow up!)

The first BG&E was successful without stooping to these juvenile tactics. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was because it didn't insult our intelligence with those cheap tricks that it was such a success. The first BG&E was mature AND tasteful. It was culturally sensitive and respectful to women.

You're oversensitive, mate. The only kinds of people that get offended by the "excessive" cleavage and similar stuff are today's feminists and turboleftists. How in the world is it excessive? Li Daiyu wears what amounts to a clothing that many women would be straight up happy to wear when trying to emphasize their sexuality, there's absolutely nothing wicked, tasteless, juvenile or immature about the shape or the size of that particular cleavage, ask literally any woman that shows signs of possessing a common sense. Also, how is it not respectful to women? None of my female friends got triggered when they witnessed the moment where Li Daiyu pulls out the M-Disk, they laughed their butts off in fact. If you happened to show this trailer to your female friends at university or whatever and their reaction was more or less like this: "This is absolutely disgraceful and disrespectful", then I have no further questions. I can't imagine any woman that maintains a healthy distance from oneself reacting in such a way.

BG&E1 was all but successful commercially. Just saying since I get a slight impression that you consider BG&E1 to be a successful game on all fronts. It isn't :(

Legion-495
07-01-2017, 12:11 PM
The milk glass is only trembling, and we're definitely engaging in tasseography for a bit. But for many rather basic questions, at the time an actual demo is out, it could be too late to put Ubisoft on the right path.

By then it'll already be glass dropped, milk spilt, not worth crying over. So, absolutely, now's the time to raise concerns. They could close the whole Space Monkey Program right now if it was too early.

Well at this very moment everyone wants everything for the game. That is a perfect deathcircle of colliding ideas.
But to be real I doubt there is anything that can be corrected right now. The basegame will be made like planned and after that our opinions are taken.

It's good and great to have concerns, but super many of them have no base for their claims, therefor they seem pretty useless. I doubt that they go through every "concern" thread until they actually made a playable area for us. A dev may correct me on that tho.

They actually gave us information we are able to check. Nothing more or less.
It's like judging any physical product at the first design and not even that has been made yet(We are in the Prototype build stage or tapeout on the first sample). Furthermore I don't talk about Ubisoft regarding the title and team behind it.

I talk about Ancel and his Team rather than Ubisoft as to my knowledge they got free hand with that one. Issues are adresseable if they exits. Not made up(A swearing "mafiaboss" and a monkey... in a trailer. Aaaaand everyone goes nutz^^). At this very moment we are able to watch the progress with the SpaceMonkeyProgram until we have a playable area. We almost can only watch right now and some minor questions get answered now and then. Just my view and I have seen games in development

I'm certain they will show us what they make and say us if they want a opinion to that very thing. Bet it will take 2-3 months until the game has more concrete in it. Good old development. And they seem to work very fast if you ask me. Just my view. But from all games in development I have so far seen that is how it works.

AThousandCrumbs
07-07-2017, 06:18 PM
They should sexualize characters where it's relevant for the context, background and personality. Li Dayu seems like a fitting person to show cleavage, so I'm not bothered, it was just a bit silly how she pulled the disc from inbetween. Swearing is fine, they're just words, over-used them though and it becomes very cringey and immature.

They're clearly not aiming this game at children anyway so it's not worth thinking about rolemodels.

I do think they should try to be more mature with their approach to crafting the setting, characters and story. Not boring but more coherent and believable. I do think this game will have a very different tone and atmosphere to the original, which is kind of a shame, as it was already so unique.

WhitecladGoth
07-07-2017, 08:08 PM
I think it would clarify things a lot if we got some more trailers set in other places with different moods. Let's see some stealthy wildlife photography, a diplomatic infiltration of a high-class dinner & concert night, evacuation from a natural disaster (or from a bunch of {insert dictator here} fans bent on re-enacting {insert genocide here} of course) and/or gang warfare in a lawless area, so "that ******* *******" monkey and his "Swiss ******* chocolate" aren't the only things we've got on which to judge the game. Show us how classy and how crass it can get, how dark and how light the themes can be, how tactful and how tactical we can be and also baby badgers, because baby badgers.

Let's see "woman" used for the singular and "women" for the plural, too, like they used to be back in C20.

You know that pig is never going to be as awesome as "Benny, bring me everyone." He knows it too, and it eats at him night and day.

As for the corrupt police, their lack of regard for citizens' safety is astounding. Sound effects in movies and games are so weird it's hard to be sure, but are those meant to be machine guns they're using before they resort to homing missiles? Future. Huge cities built vertically as well as horizontally. Presumably huge populations and extremely high population per square kilometre of ground level. The engineering challenges are a scary thought, even on a low-g world. How do you do major maintenance work 400m up a 4km-high tower block that's linked by bridges to others around it? What are the winds like up there? Anyway, yes, as the ground's nowhere in sight and even San Fransisco usually has at least 500m of visibility, let's call that ... ah ... 35,000 people per square kilometre. They're spraying bullets in traffic there. A body tends to remain at rest or continue in a straight line at uniform velocity unless some exterior force acts upon it. The US Army supposedly considers 5.56x45mm to be potentially lethal up to 3600m and 12.7x99mm out to 6764m (http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/FactorsOfEffectiveRange) or "two and a quarter miles" and "four and third miles" for people who hate science's units. All those bullets are going somewhere and they're going to hit something even if we don't get to see it happen. That comes with potential to really ruin someone's day, and also the lives of anyone who loves them. If the someone in question is the pilot of one of the other things flying around out there, some interesting (for which read: "spectacular, for which read: 'catastrophic,'") chains of consequences could follow. BAD cops. No biscuits for you.

WiwarK9
07-07-2017, 08:49 PM
WhitecladGoth
Didn't understand ****...

I completely agree !!!