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Capoupacap
06-26-2017, 01:00 AM
It's a well known thread but it hasn't been bring in frontline for a while. Is there any plan to get rid of these bridges in duel ? I mean like in forest etc. I know space management is important and that dev likes it but space management also require space ;)

UbiNoty
06-26-2017, 01:55 AM
I believe for ranked/tournament we're looking at ways to minimize the ways in which some environmental aspects can potentially give an unfair advantage to some heroes. I don't believe we'll be removing environmental kills entirely, but we are aware its a potential liability and are looking to address it.

I'll bring up your concerns about the bridges in forest so we can potentially address it for ranked, but I don't think we have plans to get rid of them in normal duel mode currently (just fair warning).

That_guy44
06-26-2017, 02:08 AM
Bridges are one of the aspectd that make Shugoki dangerous. Removing these will hurt him more than being an inconvenience for others.

Capoupacap
06-26-2017, 11:12 AM
well let's roll a map with a step line just for shugoki....hope the rope is gonna hold :D

SirCorrino
06-26-2017, 01:42 PM
I believe for ranked/tournament we're looking at ways to minimize the ways in which some environmental aspects can potentially give an unfair advantage to some heroes. I don't believe we'll be removing environmental kills entirely, but we are aware its a potential liability and are looking to address it.

I'll bring up your concerns about the bridges in forest so we can potentially address it for ranked, but I don't think we have plans to get rid of them in normal duel mode currently (just fair warning).

Please don't. It's one of the few ways I enjoy duels. And it's also an important skill to have, ledging is not a cheap or dishonorable tactic. It's an intended mechanic that you'd be a fool not to take advantage of when the map allows it. Maps with relatively thin walkways are actually one of the fairer maps since it doesn't give Raider/WL such a massive advantage with ledging from far away, anyone can do it off a GB/CGB.

Gray360UK
06-26-2017, 01:47 PM
Please don't. It's one of the few ways I enjoy duels. And it's also an important skill to have, ledging is not a cheap or dishonorable tactic. It's an intended mechanic that you'd be a fool not to take advantage of when the map allows it. Maps with relatively thin walkways are actually one of the fairer maps since it doesn't give Raider/WL such a massive advantage with ledging from far away, anyone can do it off a GB/CGB.

I have a feeling the vast majority of people feel the exact opposite way about ledge kills in duels ;)

I think it's okay when the opportunity arises, if you just happen to end up in an area with a nearby hazard and your opponent doesn't protect themselves from it and you take advantage of that. But when the area is all hazard to the point that focusing on anything other than the environment is pointless / fatal, then I think it's gone too far.

Draghmar
06-26-2017, 01:50 PM
Please don't. It's one of the few ways I enjoy duels.
Yeah...and I don't. I hate ledges. Especially against characters that have clearly more ways to take advantage in situations like this. And from what I see when dueling most people tends to not like it too because those people, on the maps that starts with ledges, go for the place that doesn't have them.

Dude_of_Valor
06-26-2017, 02:03 PM
The bridge map needed some barriers along it, which are broken in places. Would mean fighting on a bridge becomes a thing and not just who gets the GB first.

I would say environmental kills are a good aspect to have but they do not really improve your ability to get better. Still I enjoy ledge throwing, and believe it teaches one to be focused and aware at all times (this is a good thing).

SirCorrino
06-26-2017, 02:12 PM
I have a feeling the vast majority of people feel the exact opposite way about ledge kills in duels ;)



And that's fine, but their self-imposed honor code should not affect the official stance of the devs in ranked mode. In ranked it's all about winning, if you want to impose a handicap on yourself by not using environmental hazards, then that's fine. But I will use them because I play to win, and I will openly laugh at anyone who sends me salty messages about my 'dishonorable' tactics.

I wouldn't be opposed to adding some barriers on maps where it would make sense (so not the bridge on Forest or Shipyard, since those clearly can not support any railings), but having 1/3 spawns have some serious environmental hazards on some maps is not a big issue. If someone can't deal with that they just need to win the other two spawns.

Draghmar
06-26-2017, 02:34 PM
And that's fine, but their self-imposed honor code
it's not about honor but some people just don't like focusing mostly on the fact that you can fell off in variety of ways but on the fight itself. I've seen it many times - ledge around = someone GB all the time or make moves that pushes whenever he can. And sooner or later those moves succeed if not by own mistake then because of lag or game design. But I think you know exactly what I'm saying here seeing how much you're into ledges...

The_B0G_
06-26-2017, 05:13 PM
The only heroes ledging really gives advantage to is Warlord, he can aim where ever he wants and throw/push as far as the raider carries you. It's totally OP for him, one missed CGB and fight over.

Besides him though I think everyone else including raider has a fair and balanced throw.

psyminion
06-26-2017, 06:31 PM
I love the narrow bridges for a duel.
I get thrown off and I do the throwing about evenly.

it's not like every round of every duel is on a narrow ledge... and fighting on a bridge is a great way to get better countering GBs and learning you can stop GB spam with light attacks, instead of risking pushing yourself off because you counter GB.

my favorite bridge duel was against a warlord who thought that if he just spammed guardbreak he could win easily... instead I in turn countered with 2 lights every time he tried.... and he died on that bridge, another victim failing to get good.

RatedChaotic
06-26-2017, 06:55 PM
That duel bridge map ugggg. I have yet to dodge shinobis slide on it. Even tried dodging at different times during her slide and she still kinects and I fall to my death. Anyone know the exact time to dodge it on that bridge? Shinobi and that bridge haunt me. I'm not that kind of player that runs to the safe zone. I go right to the fight. Any help?

Or should I start running to the safe zone? Might aswell remove that map. Or I'll just be shinobi and back out of every map except that bridge one for Rank mode. And just stand on that bridge for easy wins.

PDXGorechild
06-28-2017, 03:48 PM
I believe for ranked/tournament we're looking at ways to minimize the ways in which some environmental aspects can potentially give an unfair advantage to some heroes. I don't believe we'll be removing environmental kills entirely, but we are aware its a potential liability and are looking to address it.

I'll bring up your concerns about the bridges in forest so we can potentially address it for ranked, but I don't think we have plans to get rid of them in normal duel mode currently (just fair warning).

@UbiNoty, this would be good. Having the odd drop or wall spike adds a bit of flavour to the game and although annoying at times, has it's place. However, I know myself and a lot of others currently feel that the majority of duel maps create unfair advantages for certain classes and people who only wish to capitalise on environmental kills. For example, as a Berserker main, I feel particularly hard done by on narrow walkways, bridges or tight indoor areas as my spinny-choppy-dodgy play style becomes drastically impeded by surrounding walls. I feel that arena-style game modes with Coliseum like maps with big open spaces and no traps should be available for those who like a proper fair fight.


Please don't. It's one of the few ways I enjoy duels. And it's also an important skill to have, ledging is not a cheap or dishonorable tactic. It's an intended mechanic that you'd be a fool not to take advantage of when the map allows it. Maps with relatively thin walkways are actually one of the fairer maps since it doesn't give Raider/WL such a massive advantage with ledging from far away, anyone can do it off a GB/CGB.

Players like you baffle me. You really do. This is one of the most intricate and technical fighting games out there, and you want to frequently bypass all the interesting mechanics of the game and instead bash one button in the hope of throwing someone off an edge, just for the sake of victory. This childish "Win by any means necessary" mentality is the main cancer that ruins online gaming for us grown up's who just enjoy playing and not desperately needing to win all of the time. I'd rather get owned 5 games in a row by a player who can actually play the game properly than play one game against some ledge lingering little loser. (How's that for alliteration?)

UbiNoty
06-29-2017, 12:52 AM
@UbiNoty, this would be good. Having the odd drop or wall spike adds a bit of flavour to the game and although annoying at times, has it's place. However, I know myself and a lot of others currently feel that the majority of duel maps create unfair advantages for certain classes and people who only wish to capitalise on environmental kills. For example, as a Berserker main, I feel particularly hard done by on narrow walkways, bridges or tight indoor areas as my spinny-choppy-dodgy play style becomes drastically impeded by surrounding walls. I feel that arena-style game modes with Coliseum like maps with big open spaces and no traps should be available for those who like a proper fair fight.


Np - I'll ask them to take a close look at the Berserker numbers maps with bridges so maybe we can get some solid evidence from that.

That_guy44
06-29-2017, 04:18 AM
@UbiNoty, this would be good. Having the odd drop or wall spike adds a bit of flavour to the game and although annoying at times, has it's place. However, I know myself and a lot of others currently feel that the majority of duel maps create unfair advantages for certain classes and people who only wish to capitalise on environmental kills. For example, as a Berserker main, I feel particularly hard done by on narrow walkways, bridges or tight indoor areas as my spinny-choppy-dodgy play style becomes drastically impeded by surrounding walls. I feel that arena-style game modes with Coliseum like maps with big open spaces and no traps should be available for those who like a proper fair fight.



Players like you baffle me. You really do. This is one of the most intricate and technical fighting games out there, and you want to frequently bypass all the interesting mechanics of the game and instead bash one button in the hope of throwing someone off an edge, just for the sake of victory. This childish "Win by any means necessary" mentality is the main cancer that ruins online gaming for us grown up's who just enjoy playing and not desperately needing to win all of the time. I'd rather get owned 5 games in a row by a player who can actually play the game properly than play one game against some ledge lingering little loser. (How's that for alliteration?)

If you don't need to desperately win all the time, you shouldn't mad to see your character falling every now and then. Learn how to counter getting thrown off instead of being a victim. There are *******s in PvP. If you want a more chill fight, you can play PvE. You aren't going to change the way players act online. If PvE is too easy, turn off matchmaking. Even the bots you get as teammates suck and the matches are tougher.

RunnerRunner22
06-29-2017, 01:28 PM
The fact that in maps with narrow walkways and ledges 99% of the time both players walk to an area with more space to fight there should prove that players don't like ledges and like to have room to actually fight.

Capoupacap
06-29-2017, 01:42 PM
Environemental kill has their place in the game, it's just that these bridges put a "One error/One kill" situation that bring nothing good to duel maps. The more spacy part of these maps have environmental hazard and fit perfectly for duel.

Runner speak true when saying "fair" duelist will try to find a spot where these hazard are kept in a more balanced situation....you then have opportunities to manage your space ;)

Gray360UK
06-29-2017, 01:50 PM
Environemental kill has their place in the game, it's just that these bridges put a "One error/One kill" situation that bring nothing good to duel maps

This 100%

Coolhairyguy
06-29-2017, 02:20 PM
I dont think Environment kills belongs entirely with duel game mode. In all cases Duel maps should have a good central clear space to fight in.

But its ok on 4 x 4.

That_guy44
06-29-2017, 04:29 PM
I have grown to like them. I believe they add in an element of danger. My only gripe is the guaranteed guard breaks on parries and conqueror' s gb off of heavy block. When ranked comes around, I'll be fighting on the bridges. The fact it makes so many people uncomfortable means that will I will definitely be utilizing bridges

Dude_of_Valor
06-29-2017, 04:34 PM
I have grown to like them. I believe they add in an element of danger. My only gripe is the guaranteed guard breaks on parries and conqueror' s gb off of heavy block. When ranked comes around, I'll be fighting on the bridges. The fact it makes so many people uncomfortable means that will I will definitely be utilizing bridges

If you want to be really dirty, pretend to walk into a "safe zone" and as your opponent nears you, turn run and gb for a ledge throw.

Capoupacap
06-29-2017, 04:46 PM
If you want to be really dirty, pretend to walk into a "safe zone" and as your opponent nears you, turn run and gb for a ledge throw.

sure things that the hole neighborhood share your fury :p

WarGrunte
06-29-2017, 07:13 PM
I don't play the duel game mode because of the bridge arenas pretty much. They weren't too much of a problem when I was leveling up my LB because he really doesn't need room to use his moveset plus he has shoves in his kit to ledge enemies. When I play Shinobi though? Those closed in maps limits a good part of my moveset which is quite frustrating. Even the spots where most players go to get away from all the ledging is quite small and limiting.

I play Brawl when I want my fill of duels nowadays. The arenas there are usually quite open, enough to use my entire kit but at the same time has enviromental hazards that you need to be aware of. Bridge maps not only allow for easy ledging which some characters can take advantage of with their kit but also limits the kit of the more mobile characters.

itsdogi
06-29-2017, 10:34 PM
Ledge kills are the worst thing you can do in a duel...i believe this is part of why the playerbase is declining. Nobody wants to fight a duel and get ledge killed...its awful!
its ok in 4v4 but duels that is just wrong...

DeLatv
06-29-2017, 11:13 PM
I dont think there should be many opputurnities to have an ledge kill, but i do want to see more enviroments, like fires, or other stuff that can damage...

UbiNoty
06-29-2017, 11:36 PM
Just popping back in to say that while ledge kills can be a source of great saltiness, they are also a very neat tool to use to bait and outsmart your opponent. If we removed ledge kills entirely then we wouldn't have those cool dodge into shove off the ledge outplays. Yes, its easy for for some heroes to abuse and we do want to address that, but I do think we still want to keep this as an environmental tactic in some form.

itsdogi
06-30-2017, 12:51 AM
that might be the case in 4v4 however in duels 90% of the playerbase does not like that...Duel is supposed to be skill based. If I as a raider main want to ledge kill somebody or similiar it would be pretty easyfor me to do,however i find it rude and dont want to win like that...why dont you make a poll and ask people if they want env kills in duels?

Mia.Nora
06-30-2017, 01:07 AM
There is nothing smart about ledge baiting. I versed so many opponents who starts to lose the fight then run next to the nearest ledge and just wait.

I often just quit if they do that and dont even think twice about penalty, since my will to play is already drained.