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View Full Version : Potential Solution to Centurion



HikarW
06-25-2017, 09:22 PM
This is a repost from the subreddit, just wanted to get this as much exposure as possible because I think this could be a huge help to the state of centurion.

Ever since the beginning of season 2, the for honor community has been up in arms about the centurion. Were the first two weeks of this everyone whining and crying uncle because they didn't understand how to counter him? Yes. But have we reached a point where it's abundantly clear to everyone who plays the game he is broken in certain situations? Yes. And while the past month of this sub has been nothing but calls for the centurion to be nerfed to hell and back, no one seems to have proposed an actual solution that doesn't completely neuter him. So my goal with this post is to do something similar to the Nobushi needs Love posts (can't remember by who but they are excellent) where I break down the current state of centurion and then propose what I believe is a simple, singular fix that will help make this character fair and interesting while maintaining his core moveset and unique role as a character in for honor.


I should clarify I am a rep 7, nearly rep 8 centurion and have been playing him since release. He's a blast imo, with fast attacks, great mixup potential, and very high damage punishes.

That being said, as far as 1v1 is concerned I think he's well balanced for the most part with one exception I'll get to later. As for when he has the numerical advantage in a fight he is very strong. He has what is effectively an sb that can stun, although it's fairly slow and easy to dodge when locked on to, but most notably is his pin attack. With a simple charged heavy that is much quicker than shugoki's he can lock a player in place allowing his teammates to wail on them before landing a knockdown punch, which he can follow up with eagle's talon for more damage while also leaving more opportunity for his teammates to deal even more damage. For many situations this single charged heavy means death, and I don't think I need to tell you that most people including myself agree that it's a bit unfair. He can also achieve the same result with a charged unblockable heavy, but it's slow, has to be comboed into, and is easily parried if you're paying attention.

But perhaps the worst by far is when there are two cents. If one of them lands a pin, if the other immediately goes into a charged heavy, they can land a pin of their own before the charged punch knocks the opponent on the ground, and then the first cent can begin charging his own heavy, wash rinse repeat. This I think is easily the most disgustingly broken thing in this entire game, it is literally inescapable without a teammates help, and these ganking issues make up for the majority of cents imbalance.

The other major complaint people have about cent is how high damage his punishes off of parry and gb can be. A single gb can lead to two pummels for stamina drain, a throw into a wall (obviously only if one is there), a guaranteed charged unblockable heavy, a charged knockdown punch, and eagles talon, or zone attack depending on the situation (I'll be honest, I only became aware of the zone on knockdown like two days ago and I have no idea when it's confirmed, would love some clarification on that in comments). If you take haymaker into account this is enormous amounts of damage, but personally i think that's just part of the character's design, and I think it should remain as is. Maybe tweaks to the zone punish, but again I'm not sure about its viability and damage.

The second major punish option he has is off of light parries. With a light parry he can get a free charged heavy, which allows for another knockdown into eagles talon, or if he's near a wall, he can choose to gb, pummel, and do the wall combo seen above. Again, both of these are high damaging options off of a simple light parry. While personally I stand by the wall combo once again as being fine as is, I personally feel the charged heavy after a light parry is too rewarding. It's around 60 damage guaranteed, doesn't require environmental help to pull off and promotes turtling, as well as negates the usefulness of his knee after parry follow up. This parry follow up is excellent but isn't very useful considering most options after parries, either a gb off heavy of charged heavy off of light parry negates the usefulness of this parry follow up. The wall combo at least requires positioning, and isn't even always a possibility, but a free 60 off of a single parry is in my opinion way too strong.

Another issue that personally frustrated me is the tracking on his punch. I have had many examples where I have back dodged and it still connected despite it being very clear his fist did not touch my character model. This is likely a simple fix like the tracking in shinobi's kick but still something that should be addressed. I should clarify that this is only pertinent to back dodging. If you side dodge and it hits you, you don't understand the timing.

There are two other complaints about centurion that I think are less significant and do not warrant change. First is cents excellent stamina drain. There are a lot of characters (raider, warden, lawbringer) who are great at punishing opponents for running out of stamina, but not a lot of characters are great at getting opponents to run out of stamina. Centurion is imo the only character who excels at this, and I think it's a core aspect of his character and what makes him strong and unique, and I feel should be left as is.

Second non issue is his "infinite" wall splat combo (heavy, light punch into wall, repeating). This is not an actual thing. Literally dodge the punch. It's not that hard. If you don't know the timing learn it.

So, these are the major points of contention the community has with the centurion as far as I'm aware. The tricky thing about fixing cent is it's hard to do without completely changing the way his character works. After what I can only describe as a single thought I had at work today while browsing this sub, I think I have come up with a single fix that can in my opinion solve this characters ganking issues and make him a more fair and balanced character without neutering him and making him obsolete.

For those of you who scrolled past all of that, here's my suggestion in all caps for your convenience.

REMOVE THE CHARGED HEAVY OPENER

To clarify, I am only referring to a charged heavy from idle, not to the chain finisher charged unblockable heavy. Just the chain opening heavy. This would include a heavy used after a light punch because no one even uses that anyway and I'm sure it would be the easiest way for the devs to implement the change. This single change to the moveset removes the 60 damage guaranteed from light parry, fixes the 2 cent infinite combo of ultimate destruction, and solves the bulk of pinning issues in ganks. I think we call all agree the charged heavy from idle is the most common reason for getting pinned while being ganked, and removing it will solve most of the ganking issues. Removing the initiating pin also doesn't ruin his 1v1 potential, because leading with it is basically a free parry against a skilled opponent and is only really viable when baiting someone into attacking you or on light parry. And since the unblockable charged heavy will be in tact, the wall throw off of gb combo will still be viable. This will also incentivize using the parry knee follow up into free heavy after a light parry, making this excellent move worth centurion player's time. And with the upcoming parry nerfs meaning no free gb's off of heavies, players will now have to work harder to get the gb into wall throw combo, either through feinting/mixups or by light parry, which again increases the viability of the parry follow up.

But u/HikarW no one is saying because you probably didn't look at my name, he can still do the unblockable charged heavy for a pin in ganks, so we'll still get obliterated. I don't think so. This move is very slow, must be comboed into, and if you're locked onto him or really even paying attention, it's an easy parry to prevent this. Sure it's not 100% unavoidable for every player in every situation all of the time, but neither is demon's embrace or the lawbringer's flip, so I don't think leaving it in there is completely unfair. Plus as I previously stated no more cent infinite combo with only the unblockable as it takes too long.

As for some other minor tweaks, maybe reduce the tracking overall a bit. It went a long way with shinobi and I think it will make a big difference for cent as well. Also maybe nerf haymaker. The recent feat nerf says to me the devs want feats to play a less major roll in 4v4s and I think even a slight nerf could help even out cent.

So those are my full thoughts on how to fix cent. Leave a comment down below if you disagree, think I'm onto something, want to clarify the zone on knockdown punish for me, or have further suggestions. I'll try to get to everyone, but I really think this simple change could go a really long way in both the community's perception of cent and his play as well. Thx for reading XD

TL;DR Remove the charged heavy opener. Not a perfect solution, but fixes a boat load of problems and balancing issues without ruining his 1v1 capabilities

SenBotsu893
06-25-2017, 10:44 PM
i still feel his heavys are way to fast. 2 heavys in succession feel as fast peacekeeper lights.
which does not make sense. a heavy is labeld heavy because they are slower but more damaging.

also would like to know some data on his cancel into gb timing.
not sure if latency issues but sometimes i see him charging into unblockable and then still canceling that into gb

Edit: oh and i almost forgot his unfair stamina advantage. apparently hes got like 2 times the stamina of vanilla characters,
now add his stamina drain attacks making him a great dissabler even though hes not even listed as that.

MasterChiefPON
06-25-2017, 10:52 PM
also would like to know some data on his cancel into gb timing.
not sure if latency issues but sometimes i see him charging into unblockable and then still canceling that into gb

That's something I hate because it's very decieving. I know that he can't cancel the unblockable into gb but they do it late enough for the unblockable animation to show a little bit and I don't expect it...

UbiNoty
06-25-2017, 11:51 PM
Thanks for the suggestions + feedback HikarW - Not too long ago we pushed a ton of community feedback and suggestions for the Centurion tracking and CC issues onto the devs so those are going to be addressed in an upcoming update.

That being said, I do think your suggestion for the charged heavy opener has merit and I'd like to bring it up with the team as well. Thanks again! Feel free to let me know if you have got anything else to add on.

Capoupacap
06-26-2017, 01:13 AM
The major issue I feel with the centurion is about how hard the punish is and when it's finished...meaning he is out of stamina, you still have to recover yours while he recover faster......please !

kweassa1
06-26-2017, 02:18 AM
You people want a fix?


●. Get rid of the full charged heavy (both UB and non-UB) "pin"

● Increase required full charge time for jab = get rid of the guaranteed full charged jab on full charged heavy. Only allow normal jab as guaranteed combo

Problem solved. Honestly, that's all that is required.


Truthfully speaking, even when being ganked by an enemy group that has a cent in it -- even when stumbling around by getting low-blowed in the groin with the kicking, spazzing out by getting constantly punched by jab, and getting stabbed by heavies/UB heavies in the gut -- I still can manage to stagger and limp through the fight, trying to stay alive until the next revenge activation -- which I usually can manage.

It's when the f-in' charged heavy lands and deals that stupid "pin", just bypassing uninterruptable as if it meant nothing, and then guarantees a full charged jab and knocks you over, it's then when the fight ends instantly.

So get rid of those two, and things are fine. I usually manage by not fighting outnumbered fights in the first place and don't really have that much of a rage-problem in dominion (I usually rage more about dumbarse teammates getting that tunnel-vision and just flocking to our side zone when the enemy already has all the other 2 zones), but if people find the cent unbearable, that's the only two things that really demand any kind of serious fix.

Dude_of_Valor
06-26-2017, 09:34 AM
The solution to a Centurion is fire...and lots of it!

Soul_of_Midgard
06-26-2017, 11:58 AM
I don't know how other players do it, but in case of a new character like the Shinobi and the Centurion, i block their attacks until i figure out the right timing for a parry. Same goes for unblockables, i get my *** handed over to me until i figured out the right timing for a dodge.

BUT...what REALLY pisses me off about the Centurion is his DUMB, ANNOYING, REPEATED scream!!!


While guarding zone A, i can hear this ****** screaming in zone C

I literally turn off the sound completely if a Centurion is involved in my matches...

kweassa1
06-26-2017, 01:41 PM
I don't know how other players do it, but in case of a new character like the Shinobi and the Centurion, i block their attacks until i figure out the right timing for a parry. Same goes for unblockables, i get my *** handed over to me until i figured out the right timing for a dodge.

BUT...what REALLY pisses me off about the Centurion is his DUMB, ANNOYING, REPEATED scream!!!


While guarding zone A, i can hear this ****** screaming in zone C

I literally turn off the sound completely if a Centurion is involved in my matches...

HHHHAAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHA good one. I agree with that one too.,

God, I swear, the loudest idiot screaming at the top of his lungs, the cent.

Good one, chap. So true :D

Gray360UK
06-26-2017, 02:41 PM
BUT...what REALLY pisses me off about the Centurion is his DUMB, ANNOYING, REPEATED scream!!!


While guarding zone A, i can hear this ****** screaming in zone C

I literally turn off the sound completely if a Centurion is involved in my matches...

Haha, I naturally like using emotes a lot but I always feel like I should use the 'Sorry!' quick chat message after using them on my Centurion ;)

mrmistark
06-26-2017, 02:51 PM
I must respectfully disagree with the wall splat combo. It's too much guaranteed damage for being bumped into a wall, which in context of the cent, there are many ways to do so. A character should not be able to do that much damage off of one wall throw. It's basically the equivalent of me throwing you into a wall as any other character and getting at least 2 heavy and one light attack with added stamina drains off of one wall throw. It's hardly fair. To clarify what I mean:

Throw/kick/punch into wall, full charge heavy, not charged jab back into wall, full charge heavy followed by full charge jab and pounce.

And that's all with base stamina, 100% guaranteed damage. Not cool.

C00tBAjenkins
06-26-2017, 04:22 PM
I think the range on pounce when a player is down is kinda crazy long. example being on high fort watching a cent fly from beginning of B area to damn near the other side of the capture area. Wish I had vid It was pretty insane.

Tyrjo
06-26-2017, 05:07 PM
Cent is unbalanced in many ways and when facing him he makes for a not so enjoyable playing experience. I'm pretty sure he's responsible for many people quitting FH and not picking it up ever again.

For one he drains your stamina way too easy and can kill you three times over with stamina pool. You can't really attack him because a single parry will feck you over so hard. Half your life gone and out of stamina.

He makes the game uninteractive in the way that you feel like you lose control of your character for long periods of time with his constant pins and knock downs. If not that, you are out of stamina and then you can't interact either except trying to stall, which is impossible given his offensive kit.

The tracking on his charged heavy is also quite silly.

JibletHunter
06-26-2017, 05:36 PM
Cent is unbalanced in many ways and when facing him he makes for a not so enjoyable playing experience. I'm pretty sure he's responsible for many people quitting FH and not picking it up ever again.

For one he drains your stamina way too easy and can kill you three times over with stamina pool. You can't really attack him because a single parry will feck you over so hard. Half your life gone and out of stamina.

He makes the game uninteractive in the way that you feel like you lose control of your character for long periods of time with his constant pins and knock downs. If not that, you are out of stamina and then you can't interact either except trying to stall, which is impossible given his offensive kit.

The tracking on his charged heavy is also quite silly.

I agree with you points about cent in 4's, and I've personally had every single friend I brought into this game (7 in total) leave because they think cent is so unbalanced in domin (what we usually play together).

Regardless of his power level, he is certainly frustrating to play against, even just for his tracking. I have had cents zoom down stairs, across zones, around pillars, turn 180 degrees and connect on back rolls on everything from leaps, eagles talon, punches etc. I usually don't have this problem in practice which makes me think that latency might contribute to some of the strange animations. However, the lack of consistency is extremely frustrating given the damage and cc time of some of his combos if they connect.

Tirik22x
06-29-2017, 07:19 PM
Oh, what cent needs is to magically slide across the floor 75' to attack, instead of only 50'.