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ExitPace
06-23-2017, 07:27 PM
The tech demo looks great, but the scale that the team is shooting for has made me worried about one thing: cities.

Hillys was such a fun place to explore, and felt so alive (especially for the generation is was produced in). I loved all the different shops, bars, even the newspaper stands on the street. I would love to see something more like that with more interaction.

I would MUCH rather explore a well thought-out small city than fly around a procedurally-designed planet. I suppose this is from getting burned by No Man's Sky, but there (lately) is a tendency in games to produce these large but somewhat uninteresting worlds.

I hope the cities (and planets!) in BGE2 end up feeling more like BGE1 and less like Assassin's Creed.

DiDoFRGT10
06-23-2017, 08:05 PM
Everyone is comparing the game with No Man's Sky, and I can understand why, but you have to keep in mind that No Man's Sky weren't aiming for huge universe with explorable planets, they were clear from the start that it will be auto generated. It was Sony's fault to over hype the game and giving gamers false hopes the developer didn't make.. on the other hand, Ancel stated multiple times that there are parts of the planets that will be AI generated, but also there are many parts that will be hand crafted. I have faith in Ancel, and I'm sure he won't make a game like No Man's Sky, specially how it was received..

Colerinho
06-23-2017, 09:52 PM
I understand this fear and I myself am also a little afraid. But that's more because I want this game to be a big success.

A lot of people will compare it to No Mans Sky and I completely get why. That game set a new standard. A negative one. And a lot of people will now be very careful when developers show these ambitious plans. But we are also talking about a very good team with Ancel at the front. This is not an indie dev like no man's sky. Ubisoft has had a lot of critique lately and I'm sure they will not let this game be another No Mans Sky because they simply can't permit it.

I like to think the game will be just like the first one. Hand crafted areas, full; rich cities to explore. Just like the first one. But this time, they're scattered around a big big surface. Even across multiple planets. The enormous size is just the playground. It's needed to give the space gameplay a place.

ExitPace
06-23-2017, 11:26 PM
TOTALLY. No Man's Sky is probably the example that everyone is most familiar with. I would say to an extent though, games like Assassin's Creed or even Far Cry are examples of what I'm trying to get at (although I really enjoy games in both those series). There reaches a point when you're trying to make a game so big and expansive that you can't actually craft everything yourself. This is often solved by a ton of generic procedural stuff alongside some really specifically-designed set pieces.

I would rather have a really well-designed city with lots of interaction than a huge sprawling generic one. BUT, it's still super early in the process so here's hoping!

Kingy77
06-23-2017, 11:33 PM
I like to think the game will be just like the first one. Hand crafted areas, full; rich cities to explore. Just like the first one. But this time, they're scattered around a big big surface. Even across multiple planets. The enormous size is just the playground. It's needed to give the space gameplay a place.

To make it simple: think of it as Australia. :D

I trust Michel Ancel and his team to design some awesome cities, temples, dungeons and caverns. I was worried too, but I found peace when I read Mr Ancel saying something like "Before even thinking about designing multiple explorable planets, we'll make sure we can produce one planet that is very enjoyable to visit". I trust him on this. After all, most people were disappointed to see that Hillys was the only planet in BGE1, after space-travel was introduced as part of the game in the first technical demonstrations. But in the end, they stuck to one tiny planet and still carried out an awesome game.

Still, the vast AI-generated deserts, mountains and jungles could be very useful to the game. They could be huge locations for vehicle-battles, or wild treasure-hunts, or extreme-speed looter chases (not sure if the English translation of "pillard" is "looter" or "plunderer" here). If there is a way to make all these elements of scenery destructible, it would be really cool to watch an enemy's mothership sink into a planet's gravity well and crash with a titanic crater! :cool:

Real-time destruction of the environment confirmed on the in-engine early demo at 11:45!!! :D

t0ninus
06-24-2017, 01:39 AM
Same fears here.

The video shows a lot of mechanics that would be cool in a space sim, but nothing much about the ground, adventure side of it :
fast ships, jetpack with almost no limitations... All of this will break the ground gameplay if it's always available.

Add the fact cities will be generated procedurally... They might offer the same gameplay everywhere and get boring quickly.

Kingy77
06-24-2017, 07:08 AM
Add the fact cities will be generated procedurally... They might offer the same gameplay everywhere and get boring quickly.

In the in-engine demo video, Michel Ancel explained very clearly that the wild areas of the planets (deserts, mountains, forests...) will be generated procedurally, but not cities or other quest-related places. They will be designed by humans.

thebomblu
06-24-2017, 01:39 PM
In the in-engine demo video, Michel Ancel explained very clearly that the wild areas of the planets (deserts, mountains, forests...) will be generated procedurally, but not cities or other quest-related places. They will be designed by humans.

One of the main questions I have about Mr Ancel using the words 'Procedurally Generated' is: Will the planets etc be procedurally generated on the fly, or shall the team be building vast libraries of information (mountains and their sizes, foliage, nature, weather, organsims, npcs, ect etc etc) and run them through software to 'quickly' build up the 'less important' areas of the game? And then go into these generated areas an make sure everything is up to scratch?

In a story-heavy game that also supports multiplayer, I think the procedural generation we have come to know might have to be modified slightly for this game. Then again, I have blind faith in the team to produce the best game possible! :cool:

ExitPace
06-24-2017, 05:52 PM
One of the main questions I have about Mr Ancel using the words 'Procedurally Generated' is: Will the planets etc be procedurally generated on the fly, or shall the team be building vast libraries of information (mountains and their sizes, foliage, nature, weather, organsims, npcs, ect etc etc) and run them through software to 'quickly' build up the 'less important' areas of the game? And then go into these generated areas an make sure everything is up to scratch?

This is my assumption. Knowing nothing about how the team is planning their design, my guess would be along these lines: procedurally generate a whole planet and then go in and customize areas. I can make do with large swaths of empty planet (although that can be somewhat uninteresting), it's when this is applied to cities that it gets boring for me.

Everything in Hillys seemed so purposeful. It feels like BGE2 could lose that feel if you're zipping around past hundreds of generic dwellings to a few select points and shops (ala Assassin's Creed) compared to the outdoor markets, newspaper stands, the Akuda, Ming-Tzu's shop, of BGE1.

MentalNoob
06-29-2017, 03:32 PM
Who said anything about procedural generated planets and cities? are you delusional?
Don't bring other games **** into other games in development, its just not cool.

Kingy77
06-30-2017, 06:34 AM
Who said anything about procedural generated planets and cities? are you delusional?
Don't bring other games **** into other games in development, its just not cool.

Keep calm and watch Michel Ancel's video showing first in-engine demo (https://bgegame.com/2017/06/22/first-look-at-bge2-e3-2017-in-engine-demo/).
And next time, please read all the posts before accusing anybody of bringing poop on the game. :mad:

Folezicle
07-01-2017, 06:16 PM
From reading the comments I'm content with the approach of hand-crafted areas and procedurally generated areas. Cities/Towns need character, memorable NPCs, side quests tied to the location and history. On the other hand the environment needs motivation for exploration. Also the environment has more potential to change dramatically in a week than a city.

Edit: That being said it would be nice to see communities amongst the harsh environments. Maybe handcrafted, but somewhat reactive to the environment nearby. I just hope to not see a town similar to the towns in Minecraft.

Kingy77
07-02-2017, 01:36 PM
Jim Sterling made an entire video about the dangers of exactly what Ancel advertises now[/URL] (link starts the video after unrelated opening remarks) and what many fear could BG&E could sadly become (i.e. "GTA in space", no thanks). The video is absolutely worth watching, especially since he doesn't just bash Ubisoft and other companies for their repeated failings, but also names game experiences that chose to go a different route and ended up being infinitely more iconic and memorable. It's the obsession with size that destroys how memorable a location can be.

Games such as GTAV or Assassin's Creed are centered on the realism. Making the player feel like he's in a credible, tangible world. This is why they did a huge effort to make the environments of these games photorealistic, busy, rusty and inhabited with realistic people (meaning absolutely uninteresting). It does not make any location particularly memorable, but it's not the point. When you walk or drive through a big city like Paris or New York, at the en of the day you can think or a couple of memorable places, but not picture the whole thing. On this aspect, BGE1 was not realistic. Hillys was like a dream, or a world described in a fairy tale: all the places you could visit had a purpose, a story, a charm of some sort... The NPC's all had a name and even lines of dialog, evolving with the game's story. But it would take a tremendous amount of work to give the same feeling on a map the size of GTAV, for example.
I have the feeling Michel Ancel's team has taken the realism vector very seriously for BGE2 (huge world, fire weapons, harsh language, photorealistic designs...). I hope they can at least give us some intense emotions on the key locations of the game (mothership, main NPC's homes, main quests checkpoints...), even if we have to travel through some random deserts, mountains and forests to reach them.

WiwarK9
07-02-2017, 09:14 PM
Can we please stop talking about the size of the world ?
There is no point in doing that right now, and let me just remember you that Ancel had already wanted to make a big world back in 2003 but he couldn't because of limited technology.
If you are not aware Yves guillemot (The boss) really like the game, he like it to the point were the first time he came to ubisoft Momptellier he came for beyond good and evil.
Ancel did share that Yves had bigger project for the game but that they couldn't do it before and the team had to reason Yves telling him what he wanted was impossible.

And there is one last thing if you want to rush the game rush it nobody forces you to go trough 15628917 side quests, but again we don't even know how every thing is going to be generated.

Can we just be happy that we will get answer to a lot of question and play a original sci fi game ?

P1nKR4Bb1t
07-03-2017, 01:30 AM
Ok it's seems like the whole "procedural generation' term has become synonymous with empty open world sandbox games alarm "no man's sky" but just because the tequniue has been abused by certain studios. Procedural generation is simply a tool in a studios arsnel to be used to the whim of artists and designers, and in particular can be combined with other techniques to great effect. I think personally, I like to think of this hybrid as procedually "assisted" design where the artist controls the outcome. As an example look at the 3D program called "Houdini" https://www.sidefx.com.

treestandland
07-03-2017, 08:56 PM
I agree that while the planetary travel and generation will bring an amazing sense of scope and adventure to the game, it will be the details within the cities, towns, shops and homes that will really determine whether this game is a success. The idea of there being a vast universe to explore full of nothing but barely interactive cities would be a huge bummer.

It's really tough to make modern or futuristic cities work in RPGs, because, how the hell do you get the scale right? Games like GTA work because the entire game is in one city, so you can really get in there. Games like FFXV DO NOT WORK because the cities, while pretty, feel fake and unlived in. All the NPCs just stand in the same places infinitely. That dude who wants to buy your photos stands around looking at the view 24 hours a day and its ****ing horrible.

Games that get the feel of lived in cities right are 1: Witcher III, and 2: Skyrim (albeit aided by AI mods) where NPCs have homes, you can enter these homes, they have jobs, they interact based on the time of day and they go to sleep when they need to, they live in the space. They are not statues.

The thing is, the only reason why cities in Witcher and Skyrim work are because they are based on historically accurate, much smaller villages and kingdoms, where its believable that a town can have 30-100 people living in it. It's completely unbelievable that a city of the future could have less than several thousand citizens, and it completely breaks immersion in an open world game where you have to figure out how to lay down barriers to make it believable.

So ideally, you want a planet full of cities with great AI and mechanics that make it feel lived in while also realistic, so that's really tough. That's such a huge game, I doubt it's achievable at the point.But I hope BGAE2 at least strives for it.

WiwarK9
07-04-2017, 12:18 AM
The thing is, the only reason why cities in Witcher and Skyrim work are because they are based on historically accurate, much smaller villages and kingdoms, where its believable that a town can have 30-100 people living in it. It's completely unbelievable that a city of the future could have less than several thousand citizens, and it completely breaks immersion in an open world game where you have to figure out how to lay down barriers to make it believable.

The city we saw is an exception, she is more like the vatican of those people. The cities we will interact with the most will most likely look worse than hyllis because let's be serious no one will invest in slaves basement when people see the game they think to big like "Oh my god how they will populate an entire planet" Planets will most likely be empty with just 2 or 3 spot with mining slaves and with a bunch of random point with things to discover, and i don't mind it let me explain you why

Let's take for exemple Xenoblade chronicles X (wich was a **** game) When you discover the world by feet you get the scale of the world you want to go everywhere you wonder how you will reach some places and everything is so BIG, but as soon as you get the Mecha every thing become small and uninteresting because you move to fast and you are too big for the environement.

If in BGE 2 they get the Movement speed and the space between cities/planets good we could get a really good game without having to see a city every Km

IT-Tom
07-08-2017, 04:18 PM
I have the exact same fear. But I really have hope for this game.
I'd love to see a well detailed cyberpunk city with anthropomorphic animals and those other creatures... humans ^_^
It would be cool to meet randomly interesting places and persons in such a city. I want to feel like I really want to spend time in the city and not just for some quests.