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darkhorizon11
07-25-2004, 05:48 PM
Hey I was wondering why did the Finns adopt the swastika? Was that their symbol before the Nazi party took over or did they adopt it to appease the Germans? Its so broad and blatant even more so that the German planes?

darkhorizon11
07-25-2004, 05:48 PM
Hey I was wondering why did the Finns adopt the swastika? Was that their symbol before the Nazi party took over or did they adopt it to appease the Germans? Its so broad and blatant even more so that the German planes?

_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-25-2004, 06:00 PM
It wasnt a Swastika, Swastika where rotated sideways, Finland used that symbol for the longest time. Im not sure what it was meant for but I have read it that same symbol had to do with somethinf of Finlans past. Im sure somebody here will give a better explanation, or you could do a google search to see what the real symbol was for. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

AdmiralWarlord
07-25-2004, 06:07 PM
http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/hakaristi.htm

DuxCorvan
07-25-2004, 06:07 PM
In any case, gammated crosses such as svastika, have been a common sun symbol worldwide during all human history. You can find them associated to hindi religion and buddism, and also in ancient stone stelles from the Celtics and other historical cultures. It's always been a good luck charm in Europe, specially in nordic and baltic cultures such as Finnish.

Don't know much about Finnish insignia, but I think it is called 'Von Lorentz Cross' and has nothing to do with nazism.

- Dux Corvan -
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Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

3.JG51_Stecher
07-25-2004, 06:49 PM
Here's another good explanation of it by LLv26.

http://lentolaivue26.org/History/hakaristi/Hakaristi.htm

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/190sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

Snuffy Smith
07-25-2004, 07:11 PM
It is also a common American Indian symbol. Several US Army units used it in their unit symbols and patches (US 45th "Thunderbird" Infantry Division in particular) until the start of WW-2. Hitler and Goebbels took it as their own mythic symbol, and it is now a symbol of utter evil. To the Finns in 1939-45 it was just a traditional symbol that was convenient, since it was similar to their principal ally.

By the way, how did Finland survive and avoid Soviet occupation at the end of the war? Stalin was not a merciful guy--what was in it for him?

B-29 Snuffy & The Skunks
676th Bombardment Sqdn (Very Heavy)
444th Group, 58th Wing, 20th Air Force
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Vladimir_No2
07-25-2004, 07:58 PM
I think finland survived and avoided soviet occupation simply because it beat the USSR. Because the USSR was not in control of Finland at the end of the war, and the countries had signed a peace treaty, the USSR was in no possition to occupy Finland [peace treaties seemed to have no value when the USSR violated them before the war, but I guess they were sick of fighting].

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v255/vladimir_no2/polishsig.jpg
Der Spaziergang uber Warshau

SeaFireLIV
07-25-2004, 08:03 PM
You can kinda see how the Nazis were not going to complain about the Finn`s symbol though, can`t you? Even though it never meant the same as the Swastika they probably felt it was similar enough to send the message across to everyone else who may not know any difference...
Especially being on the same side too.

Such as myself... I most certainly saw it as a part of the Reich symbolism when I first came across it.

SwingerSpecial
07-25-2004, 08:28 PM
The Soviets decided to settle for a draw after Tali-Ihantala because they did not have the resources to start breaking through the Finnish lines if they wanted to get to Berlin before the americans. Remember that VKT-line where they were stopped didn't even have proper positions dug in by the time they reached it - after that, the Red Army would have had to smash through the Salpa ("deadbolt") defense line that was actually properly fortified. How Finland avoided Soviet occupation during the cold war is a small miracle in itself.

Red_Russian13
07-25-2004, 10:06 PM
Interesting stuff. Often wondered about this, glad someone asked.

Red Russian

VOL_Hans
07-25-2004, 10:12 PM
When I first saw the Finnish swastika it was on a model of the Bf-109G-6. My reaction was something along the lines of: "Thats odd, I didn't know the Germans used markings like that".

Only later I found out it was Finnland. I think Latvia or some other country uses a similar symbol, but in red instead of blue.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

horseback
07-25-2004, 10:32 PM
The question of why Stalin didn't try to occupy Finland may have its' answer in the reaction of the Western Democracies when the USSR tried invading Finland in 1939. Where do you think the Brewsters, Gladiators and Hurricanes the Finns flew in the Continuation War came from?

Everyone in the West realized that the Finns were stuck with the Germans for allies; their choice was subjugation by the Soviets or an arm's length alliance with the Nazis. I imagine Churchill and FDR privately would have loved to keep supplying the Finns even after Barbarossa, if they could have figured out how.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Mitlov47
07-25-2004, 11:10 PM
The Finnish swastika is unrelated to Nazism.

Just so some Finns know: while the Nazi Party of WWII only used a swastika rotated 45 degrees, modern neo-Nazis use it both laying flat as well as rotated. No distinction is made. So while a Finn may look at it and say "that's not a swastika, the arms are perfectly vertical and horizontal," that distinction won't occur to most Americans because Neo-Nazis use both varieties.

This was a point of confusion in a previous discussion on the topic, and I wanted to avoid that same confusion here.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/387_1090402912_sturmo1.jpg

darkhorizon11
07-25-2004, 11:48 PM
Thanks for clearing that up it is indeed an old symbol I was just curious what the Finns intentions were by using it.

Luftwaffe_109
07-26-2004, 12:28 AM
Yes, as has already been mentioned, the Finnish von Rosen cross had absolutely nothing at all to do with Nazism or the Hakenkreuz (German swastika) and has its origins in the family shield of one of Finland's aviators I believe. The von Rosen cross is still used widely in Finland today.

F19_Olli72
07-26-2004, 01:07 AM
Just to make something clear: It is a swastika.
I dont know why some ppl insist on it wasnt a 'swastika'. The finns themselves called it that; 'hakaristi' (=swastika). The finns didnt make a distinction between the names of the symbol, only that they meant compleatly different things. The angle of rotation has nothing to do with it, and theres nothing shameful about the name 'swastika'/'hakaristi' either. Heres some links:

http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/hakaristi.htm
http://www.jiop.fi/ksimuseo/aboutswa.html
http://hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/faf/hakaristi.html
http://ilmavoimat.hyperlink.cz/Others/swastika.htm

http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/Forgotten%20Battles/screenshotart/SIG_G50.jpg (http://www.screenshotart.com)

Abraxa
07-26-2004, 01:28 AM
Direction of rotation, inclination etc. mean nothing. The symbol is always a swastika, it's painted in many ways and shapes and is present all over the world, from South America to Europe, Tibet ("Yungdrung"=swastika=eternal) China, since ever.
Here's an interesting study on the ancient Swastika.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/swastika/

Hitler took it as an Aryan symbol for his party, probably influenced by Hess and Thule's occult studies. Thus he disqualified one of the most beautiful symbols of human history.

BBB_Abraxa

THBF109
07-26-2004, 01:45 AM
Well, by now everybody here knows where we got the hakaristi (1918, von Rosen, Swedish aristocrat who even flew bomber missions in FAF during WWII).

But, do you know this: FAF still today uses hakaristi in many of their badges, insignia etc. It usually has something on top of it (like propeller etc) but it is clearly visible in the background. FAF aircraft dont carry it anymore because of international attitude towards swastika as general (based on ignorance).

And I agree with F19_Olli72 - yes we call all swastika "hakaristi" (our own, German, Hindi whatever - no difference). Hakaristi as a word doesn't mean anything political - it just means that type of cross.

HilloMunx0r
07-26-2004, 12:30 PM
Little off-topic but its used also outside FAF, here is the official flag of the Finnish President, though here the symbol is 'Liberty Cross'.

http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tpk/images/presidentin_lippu.gif

DuxCorvan
07-26-2004, 12:46 PM
You can also find worldwide examples of 'sauwastika', this is, an anti-clock-wise armed, inverted 'swastika'.

Another ancient symbol representing sun.

Jenny_B
07-26-2004, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vladimir_No2:
I think finland survived and avoided soviet occupation simply because it beat the USSR. Because the USSR was not in control of Finland at the end of the war, and the countries had signed a peace treaty, the USSR was in no possition to occupy Finland [peace treaties seemed to have no value when the USSR violated them before the war, but I guess they were sick of fighting].
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tha fact that the Finns stopped their advance in the continuation war, when they had recaptured their lost land, might have been a contributing factor. Despite German pressure to advance on Leningrad, they stopped. This was during a time when it looked as if the USSR would lose the war, and "German pressure" could have made a nervous wreck out of anyone.

Those Finns had a lot of integrity. They're great rally drivers too!

--Jenny

PBNA-Boosher
07-26-2004, 04:20 PM
Well, I know enough that it had nothing to do with the Nazis. In fact, it was a perfectly nice symbol before the Nazis showed up. It meant good luck.

Boosher
_____________________________
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you..."
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LeadSpitter_
07-26-2004, 04:33 PM
buddists used the same symbol way before the finns or germany. I think it ment something like great energy or somthing.

http://usa.altermedia.info/images/buddhist%20temple%20swasi.JPG

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif