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View Full Version : Please don't get lost in the scale of the game



Hunsie
06-22-2017, 08:14 PM
I posted a lot of this in the reveal thread but I think the discussion could use its own separate one.

I am worried about the scale of this game.

While scale is an exciting thing when it comes to the games that have been released they end up relying too much on the WOW factor. Scale and unique vistas are great but if there is no active engagement with them or varied gameplay mechanics used to interact with them then that amazing flight to the huge planet ends up just feeling like a long loading screen until you actually get to the marker on your map. It's cool the first few times but if I'm not actually doing something meaningful during these flight sections that requires more than just going forward they're going to be a chore.

This game is definitely ambitious and that's a little scary but I'm still optimistic.

What do you guys thing about the scale shown in today's reveal? How do you thing it will help or hinder your enjoyment and what gameplay mechanics do you see being implemented which take advantage of this scale?

Heisbrot
06-22-2017, 09:47 PM
Im feeling like this game will be released in 2030. The scale is huge and the team is kinda small.
Its a huge step. Wish them best of luck!

QuiGonJ
07-23-2017, 04:27 PM
Just watched a video about the problems in No Man's Sky a year later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfquJ4P9aMw

I know Michel says all the planets will be interesting, but I've played enough MMOs to know that random content generation is junk. They generally fall into FedEx missions where you go to place X, fight, get item Y, and return with it. Wash, rinse, repeat. Or do resource mining and grinding to level up your character or ship. If that's what we get, I walk away. I was expecting the next chapter in the story of Jade. Not a prequel. But, it's early days, so I will wait and see what happens.

Legion-495
07-23-2017, 04:41 PM
Just watched a video about the problems in No Man's Sky a year later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfquJ4P9aMw

I know Michel says all the planets will be interesting, but I've played enough MMOs to know that random content generation is junk. They generally fall into FedEx missions where you go to place X, fight, get item Y, and return with it. Wash, rinse, repeat. Or do resource mining and grinding to level up your character or ship. If that's what we get, I walk away. I was expecting the next chapter in the story of Jade. Not a prequel. But, it's early days, so I will wait and see what happens.

It is not random. They have full control over details. After all it is one System and I assume 1 Planet at System 4(BGE plays in System4). This does not compare to the usual generation methods anyway. I mean they actually will have realtime modfication... thread (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1694197-Everything-we-know-about-the-Game!-Read-before-asking-in-new-threads!) lists it
You can compare it to a MMO(Even tho technical they are way different already) if you want but you might want to know that it has been said it is no MMO and the gameplay will be based on the very same mechanics as the first game.

Focus is on story and well designed places. And I have to agree with Ancel that if they manage it in the details the feel of scale will be super impressive.
(I think it already is with WIP assets)

"I was expecting the next chapter in the story of Jade" Don't you realize that this part of Jades story? And those were (most likely) the trilogy plans to begin with.

The game is a very ambitious one. It is something you might see all 5-10 years. BGE was too... stuff like automatic target selection was not a thing back then. Even got a award... super impressive for the time. And I'm very certain that this will be the case again.
From ground up new, brand new engine. This is nothing they thought they do like now.
There was a lot of work before even having a engine preview^^

I agree we need to wait and see, but I cannot see a chance of having a BGE2 MMO-ish, grinder game in front of me after the development. That seems so odd missplaced for all the work that ran into just the software they needed to be able to start development(Ancel said they worked on other games just to be sure that they are ready^^, can you imagine that?).


The Devs have a ****ton of work to do now^^ This is most likely a its ready when its ready game as it will take a fair amount of time and I expect first real demos late 2018. But I think we will be one of the first to see the working insides of this game, but be aware it is a game in development. As such it should come as no surpise if it may looks bad to you or someone else as usually you don't get to see a game in that stages at a big company like Ubisoft. I'm very excited for it and will troubleshoot the hell outta this game :D

QuiGonJ
07-23-2017, 05:57 PM
Thanks for the reply. I accept that this isn't technically an MMO, but it sure does have a lot in common with one that I was involved with a long time ago.

I agree there is a lot of content generation and storytelling to be done. Those things are expensive and hard to do. Ubisoft has not been generally known for patience and generosity on these levels, but I have to admit Michel is one of their star developers and that they gave up on an iteration of this game means he's been thinking on this for a long time and Ubisoft does want it to work.

My trepidation was that I was once involved heavily in a forum like this one, and the subject matter was a well established and rich tapestry for storytelling. It involved starting out as a person, going to other planets, eventually they got space flights and dogfighting in to the galaxy. I even got a group of fans together for a lunch with the Devs at E3 2001. Mentally, I gave it my all, explaining what storytelling we were expecting. How you should get into a ship and see the flight and have things go wrong during the flight, because that's the way it was in the movies that inspired the game. I knew all about the factions, the history, because this was based on a whole bunch of movies and books which had already been written. I love deep backstories.

But the game that came out was far, far away from the conversations we had. Like No Man's Sky, they swung for the Star, but we got a farming and resource management game with some Wars going on somewhere in Galaxies removed from the game we were playing. Michel is capable of great storytelling. As bitebug will tell you, I have been bugging Ubisoft for a sequel at E3's since 2004. I love BG&E 1. It mixes multiple styles of gameplay in ways no other game has done. I just wonder how much gameplay we can get at the detail levels he is promising us.

QuiGonJ
07-23-2017, 06:01 PM
Oh, and I am going to add one other thing, because it needs to be said somewhere. I know BG&E was considered a sale failure at the time, but then again, so were a bunch of Disney films including Fanstasia. BG&E has been remastered and sold in various ways, and I would like to think it made it's development cost back sometime. So I hope they spend lots and make lots over a lot of time with this game. :)

Legion-495
07-23-2017, 09:06 PM
It's not like Ancel and Team make their first game. They have experience... like 15 years of it :D
To me they seem very reliable due to that. They sure are careful what they say about the game :) (Don't wanna reboot a Hello Games Situation)

Ubisoft may publishes the game but I'm certain nothing of that would have been even a thing without that team. Actually I think they have a lot of freedom regarding this. Ubisoft is not in the position to **** up with Vivendi holding like what 27% shares.
To me this game could be the thing Ubisoft needs to really push forward.
I have seen many games starting and then failing, but almost all of these are from people that are new to the videogame industry or do simply not have the skillset(And a small fraction screwing over people).

All great conversations and such, but as it stands I think to many people start to expect too much(Expecting their own ideas they had to see in the game). I for my part expect a BGE1-ish game with my own character and space... I would be happy with that xD
I think the game shows next E3 too.
True yet some claims need to be backed up with gameplay. Since it was zero day development we started at that will take some time and they obviously do not like to show us stuff with WIP assets^^ or super basic placeholders.


I hope we get that Q&A soon. Or at least some answers to #askbeyond. I really want to know which graphics API they use... I did ask how people reacted to the HD Remake.

One way or a other I already decided to buy the game no matter if good or bad. Just for the sake of having a higher chance for another game. I actually would not do that, but if something goes wrong I'm certain this team will fix it in the "next version" so to say. And I trust the team. But well that would be super worst case... a Fallout.
I'm not so negative because everything we do might impact the game. I mean we are actually here to test the game. We know how it will be^^

QuiGonJ
07-24-2017, 05:34 AM
I agree that they waited till they had most of the tech functioning. My main concerns are about just what stories they wish to tell. In the original game, we saw goat people, pig people and shark people and many more and it was no big deal. I like diversity when presented that way. To now find out they are engineered as slaves for hostile environments rubbed me seriously the wrong way. I would like a game without heaping helpings of SJW. Besides, for example, humans share 98% of their DNA with cows, so why make cow people?

Legion-495
07-24-2017, 07:28 AM
Who said that humans didn't modfify themselfs too?
Its more about DNA complexity. It is to some degree logical that you would find similar DNA for basic things.

And that percentage always depends on the guy you ask^^ I think that number comes closer at some apes not a cow.
There are plants with similar complexity as human DNA...

Well I could imagine that cows under DNA modification are very robust (needing very few to survive) and breeding is one way to colonize a area.
Just saying. Maybe we get information about the hybrids.


Hybrids are the lower class, however we talk like about places that have been made with hybrids to begin with. I think its more like we get restricted areas. Like the first game had the AlphaSection places and now we have the "human" section places. And it seems fine for me to like sneak into such a place.
Despite all what we have heared that hybrids are slaves etc, there are probably many that are free to some degree or another. I wonder how the Cities will be. Sure most stuff will be going down in the places with hybrids.
Is it so bad to make that diversity you like happening? The game will give us a reason to fight for it. That is all we need^^ In basics. The question would be if the majority of humans know about that. And we have the good old information publish story again... would have been my idea.
Well IDK how they will wrap this up, but I think they already have everything written down how they want it.

It does not compare to SJWs in our world as their problems are pretty much a fictitious thing... if you ask me. Someone will crap on me later for that sentence^^
Have your concerns^^ We will see for ourself. I stop now we went full offtopic xD You should make a concern thread or so^^

WiwarK9
07-24-2017, 10:12 PM
I would like a game without heaping helpings of SJW
There is a difference between adding LGBTQWERTY character to a story just to be politicaly correct and adding characters with different personalities and probleme with the attention to speak about them.
Exemple 1: Mary is gay and she is strong, she is far more powerfull than anyone else. (Bad)
Exemple 2: Mary is gay and because of it she face rejection all her life, but she isn't someone who will loose hope, whenever she fall down she stand back up, she is far more powerfull than anyone else. (Good)
while exemple 1 just describe her wich could be enough, (and is what a lot of people do on serie/film) the second exemple use her homosexuality to show why she is strong because of it, and it create the felling of emphaty toward the characters even if you are the best anti-SJW guy.
A good character break all bondaries of opinion, a good character make you want to say: I feel you bro
Wich i really felt in the first BGE i was crying when i read the message from pey'j after he got kidnaped.


In any case, approaching any story with an "I don't want my preconceptions challenged" mindset gets you one thing for certain: Extremely boring and uninventive stories.
In any case, approaching any story with an "I need to fill the checklist so i can't piss of this vocal group who could ruin our marketing campaign" mindset gets you one thing for certain: Extremely bad and uninventive stories.

The most of people don't care if a character is gay but if you start to add in every story a gay character because their must be a gay character you just start to say: why ?
but you could also say: why not ?
BUT the real question is: does it add something to the story ? if yes go for it, if no it's like back in the time were you were forced to put a black character on a film because of certain laws, and what did it bring ? the best cliché ever: the black dude die the first. So much against racism.

WiwarK9
07-28-2017, 04:20 PM
Writed a lot but i will keep it short:
-Try to impose your ideas on someone and he will **** on your throat.
-Before (back before social media twitter,facebook) we hadn't that kind of probleme and everyone think a female/gay/wathever character was a good idea and was something fresh, but now with everyone imposing their ideas you will only see it as a broken product made to attract a new kind of people who win trough whinning.

Here is a sweet post showing what really bring gamer together: Gameplay
https://9gag.com/gag/a7DrVzw?sc=gaming

Lyogron
07-28-2017, 05:43 PM
now with everyone imposing their ideas

ALL stories impose ideas; and no idea is less worth imposing than that we're living in a world of straight white dudes.

WiwarK9
07-28-2017, 07:59 PM
I am an arabic male who played a lot when he was young and was always mocked by the same type of people who follow the trend and act PC on twitter etc.., now excuse me if me and my friends are not really buying this **** of diversity on games, don't get me wrong the only reason BGE2 is not a target as the first game was released before all of this **** and already featured a lot of diversity.
I don't complain if i don't see an arabic, like my asian friend don't complain when he doesn't see an asian character on a game like you shouldn't complain if you don't see an homo, company are stupid and only hear who cry the loudest and too badly it's the people who don't care about a game who are the most heard.
Just look at Neil druckman from Naughty dog a SJW who listen to anita sarkeesian.
Now tell me this ***** is an exemple to follow.

Final word i believe in Michel Ancel to deliver us a good story with an amzing gamplay.

WiwarK9
07-29-2017, 05:21 PM
Basically all game designers who were the heroes of my youth and continue to be have expressed their support for Anita Sarkeesian's ideas.
Look at tim schafer post on twitter about this subject he just keep dodging the question with vague anwers, even if the poeple who ask the question give him the video and the minutage.
Never hear of the 2 others we didn't play the same games.

When a game is about the woes of a homosexual character because of his or her homosexuality, it's "propaganda" for them. When the character happens to be homosexual and everyone in the game is OK with it, they find it "unneccessary".
Witcher 3 Quest to kill the griffon, when you met the hunter 2 choices:
-Help him chase the dogs
-Order him to show you the way
If you chase the dogs with him you discover that he is gay and that he had a relationship with the son of the lord of the castle so he had to run.
And ciri may also be a lesbian whoever she may be Bi.
Now tell me the bigest game, if we can say the best game feature gay character and overpowered female character (Ciri) and why didn't i heard the witcher 3 as being one of the most SJW game ever ?
Normal you social justice warior were too busy complaining because they were not black character in the game ...
if we follow you reasonement every game should be some kind of race/gender library where everyone should be represented.

And the thing that these people desperately and utterly need to play are many more games like that. Right until they accept aIs normal what is in fact normal.
Forcing opinions down the throat of people.

I've been there when twatwaffles attacked Red Thread Games on twitter and facebook for showing women in hijabs on the streets of 25th century Europolis, formerly Czech Republic.
right now the Czech Republic is refusing refuge to refuges now you will tell me "hey it's the 25th centuary" yes and in the 25th centuary i think islam would grow enough to forget about the hijab tradition it's a long talk but here is the short version: big resume of Qur'an 24:30-31 don't act like a ****** and if you want to get naked do it with someone who is from your family or is a slave.
The dress code is not in the Qran but in the haddith the qran is timeless, whoever the haddith is not so you should only get the general concept for it, and haddith is transmited by man to another until it reaches us, so sorry if i don't trust some arabs who play the chinese whispers for over one thousend year...

but the reliable extended boo-hoo just because a select few, woefully few of those fictional characters don't conform to their imbecile standards of gender norms, societal roles, racial stereotypes, beauty and a heap of other things that basically just demand a bland and boring arbitrary conformity: It's just pathetic.
I agree but do it the right way and bring back the furries right legion-495 ?

she was the product of very careful deliberation. Appearance, character, and in particular world context.
Yeah and i'm sure it's purpose was to please your agenda.

The idea that there now is a "PC culture" that "inserts" "new" values into "our" media is laughable. The values have been there for decades and decades
Yeah and if you *******s could keep your mouth shut maybe their will not be so many people getting pissed off

Edit: Your kind of mentality is the reason why they remplace such beautifull churches in france by mosquee, destroying their culture for people who don't even want to respect you, and i know i thing i LIVE with them...
And i didn't see anyone praising, Remember me, Mirroir edge serie, or the last tomb raider, but i guess diversity in character should only apply if it's a game you are interessted in, **** the others right ?

Should really work on my anger management.

Legion-495
07-29-2017, 06:30 PM
I agree but do it the right way and bring back the furries right legion-495 ?

Indeed :D
I really like the characters from my past. Ratchet&Clank, Sly Cooper, Dexter and I actually wonder if Rayman would count?
Like we need at least a BGE2 Khajit(for the lols).
I wonder tho so few games touch non-human characters(realistic>usually import a own 3d character). No reason to care about that anyway. But reality looks more like it was impossible to display fur nicely(TressFX and Hairworks sure did a lot to make this possible). I think it is a opportunity to take this for the game.
Can't wait for it with that team behind the game. They sure look neat.

I bet furry-community will hit this game :D ... to clear all up no I do not have any suits and or relation to the weird(What I consider as being weird at least) section of that community, actually none at all. Just know stuff about... as usual.
Just drawed my profile picture and I'm still to lazy to at least finish the lines with a drawing program. But I have 5 other drawings too. Okay even my Warframe Clan-Logo I made is a wolf... damn I see relations.

I'm real one reason I would really like seeing that game be a thing. "Hybrids" :D But srsly where else do you get to play such non-standard characters?

WiwarK9
07-29-2017, 08:30 PM
You have the Starfox license and you should definetly play the on on gamecub "starfox adventure" you also have the last Zelda BOTW with the fish and the birds, and the classics Crash bandicoot and spyro the dragoon.
I remembered playing a demo of Klonoa on ps1 i like the game but i was 6/7 years old at this time, also there is already a khajit race on BGE, Meï "Felis sapiens" she is working with the iris network.
Edit:Typo, And imagine a character anthro with the feather of trico from The last guardian.

Back on topic


It's cool the first few times but if I'm not actually doing something meaningful during these flight sections that requires more than just going forward they're going to be a chore.
Ancel always said that he was inspired by Zelda what if he tought of that and created a mini games like Zelda windwaker when you are on boat ?
A system who would be interesting is something like Burnout where you should drive as close to the ground as possible without touching it, it would give you aditionnal xp it could unlock some customizable elements for your ship.

Legion-495
07-31-2017, 02:10 PM
Legend of Kay=Catboy.
Kya: Dark Lineage = has "Wolfen" and so called "Nativs"
I played Spyro a Gamecube version(idk was too long ago) and 3 games on PS2 which was a trilogy I suppose. Like you can fly a bit in the third installment.
I know the blue cat in Iris. I actually forgot Crash Bandicoot. He seems dead with Skylanders. But like I do have a very awesome title for the PS2... don't know the name tho but super cool platformer in the series with Co-OP option.

imagine a character anthro with the feather of trico from The last guardian
That would be fancy but the game was a exclusive and I wonder which tech they used for that. But I expect hairworks and preferably TressFX3.0 to be ready to deal with that on a bigger scale(Global).

I feel like for driving and XP related stuff it might handles stuff similar like SaintsRow with useless tricks and driving close stuff as you mentioned.

jakkt15
11-10-2017, 07:37 AM
I think that they are keeping in mind not to make the scale of the game become too much of a problem, especially since the game's main focus is a single player experience and its story. I do think a common trend in exploration games is that players may get tired or disconnected from the game when traveling through an area where they are familiar with (like on the way back from a mission).

I think that as a great way to address this in BGE2 is to implement an autopilot feature for certain ships. During this autopilot, players will be able to move around their ship, interact with their crew and customize their environment. The autopilot could also be shown as one of your shipmates piloting the ship in your stead. Of course, when the ship encounters some sort of danger or come across something new (a discovery) you will be alerted and the camera will snap to a 3D view of your ship or you will have to report as soon as you can to the bridge.

(I would rather the camera snap though and your character returns to the bridge automatically. For logic purposes you can shout orders through your com device as a way to "control" your shipmate pilot or the ships computer.)

LaxativePayne
11-10-2017, 11:51 PM
Scale will definitely remain a big concern of mine until we see footage that's farther along. Developers, I suggest looking into the Yakuza series for an idea of how to fill a game area with characters, personality, and things to do. That map is miniscule compared to what BGE2 will be, but for heavily populated areas it could be a source of inspiration. The Yakuza games have so much substantial content, they make most Western AAA games look like a joke.

As for the SJW argument in this thread, there's clearly right and wrong ways to go about political/social commentary, which all depends on the tone and style of the game. Much like SJWs look for reasons to get offended, some people also look for virtue signalling SJW agenda in media. That kind of irrational, disingenuous stuff exists, for sure, but there are plenty of creators who don't let their beliefs and biases do harm. Anyway, Michel Ancel is the last person I'd expect to make an "SJW game"--have you seen the giant animal divinities in WiLD?

Legion-495
11-18-2017, 03:29 PM
I swear I had a prime time in my life a teacher who did "teach" me about womansplaining and manspreading xD That was a ridiculous conversation.

Back on track here. Any Idea is welcome if it fits the thing. Totally agree BGE is a prime example. I do not see how there is anything worth adding.
The only fear I have is that due to limitations certain things were cut down which turn out to be actually better the way they are in this cut down type then a fully flexed idea they had in mind for the original BGE.
Anyway. I think we all expect a step like Witcher 2 to Witcher 3 in gameplay.

bloodysugar
11-20-2017, 07:46 PM
Initial subject is about the danger of a too large scale and get off topic at 5th post because of some SJWphobia into a game about witch we know a few things for sure : it will tell about slavery of conscious beings (not only human slavery)... and heroes will be pirates, like the ones that during the XVIth century fleed away from oligarchic despots dreaming of an utopian society made of real democracy, wealth sharing up to invent the first occidental health care system.

If Social Injustice Warriors don't want to hear about humanism and social justice they should definitely find an other game cause it's like complaining about balls into a soccer game forum : it wont change anything about the basic plot. It will be a humanist game, and the story will be about moral values in front of exploitation, so it will be a game about social justice wether or not you're whining about it. Deal with it.


So yeah. about scale...
The thing that makes me feel optimistic about it is that we know 50% of the planet wont be usable unless to exploit meteorite mining. There may be some mission around that place but that's not where we'll want to spend much time around. And also if there are lot of meteorites other planet may very likely be impacted too. It's a smart way to reduce useful space. Then there are also oceans. If it is like on planet Earth at least it 70% of the planet surface are oceans. Keeping this ratio that would make around 15% of useful land space. But it could be less than that. Suddenly the challenge is still impressive but way less big than what it looks like.

I do worry more about NPC's density until it bugs..