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Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 02:14 PM
How would we feel if they added slightly more chip damage to break the block only meta. if you added 25% chip damages on lights and heavies (so if a light does 12 it would do 4 damage and if a heavy does 40 on block it would do 10) this would encourage more people to attempt to parry or deflect instead of just stand there and block. Also i was considering boosting the chip damage to 50% when out of stamina so that everyone can punish someone who's out of stamina not just certain heros. I'm curious on the communities thoughts :cool:

Draghmar
06-21-2017, 02:21 PM
Yeah...And the classes that can spam attack will....spam attacks. And all others will...not do that because they are not fast enough. Guess who will win such a confrontation. ;)
I think that simply adding more chip dmg shouldn't not happen without balancing overall game mechanics.

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 02:25 PM
so the classes who would spam attacks I'm guessing you mean the Assassins. PK used to spam attacks and they nerfed her recovery so if she does you can punish her light spam, couldnt we do this to other heros too?

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 02:27 PM
Also if someone is just spamming attacks wouldn't they be extremely easy to parry?

Draghmar
06-21-2017, 02:49 PM
Not only PK. I mean classes that have fast light attacks and can switch between directions easily. Simple example from top of my head: Berserker's zone which makes 3 or 4 attacks. If you don't parry first one it's very hard to do anything until last attack because you character is staggered. At least that's something I have very often with Nobushi.
And no, it's not easy to parry fast light attacks. I mean I know that there people that can parry almost anything but I don't think it's a majority. And if so chip damage wouldn't resolve anything. It would just shift focus on parry instead of block and because parry is very rewarding for most classes it would be even worse if everyone could parry lights easy enough. And take consoles where 30fps makes reactions even more problematic.

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 02:55 PM
sorry i play on PC so idk much about console struggles my mistake. But from what i hear the Defense/ turtle meta is because everyone is just blocking and there is no reason no to just block. im trying to offer incentive to parry to open up certain heros who just sit there spam block and play off that. if you are playing vs a serker (and god bless that heros soul but its a low tier hero) would it be so bad to let it have chip damage? it would force people to attempt to parry instead of sit behind block all game i want the game to focus on parry instead of block because blocking is simple and parrying is not. anyone can block everything its quite obvious but not everyone can parry.

Draghmar
06-21-2017, 03:16 PM
It's more complicated then that. In my opinion the reason for defensive gameplay is from reward that counter attacking gives. For example if I see that opponent is good at parring attacks I won't attack him because it's almost like giving him free damage. That's why I said that chip damage alone won't be good and the whole system should be rebalanced.

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 03:28 PM
isnt that why Feints are in the game? if someones good at parrying your supposed to feint them i thought and try to bait them into something.

MisterGuyMan
06-21-2017, 04:24 PM
Make Guardbreak an actual thing that actually breaks guard and the game is fixed. Poof! Like magic.

But that would be too easy since that's how fighting games have done it for decades. We have to be fancy and reinvent the wheel.

Oupyz
06-21-2017, 04:26 PM
Add chip damage reduce feint cost

Will fix parry issue and the defensive meta , yeah i know beserker will be a beast , but id rather face a beserker anyway over classes like conqueror and lawbringer who do nothing but wait for the attacker ......

kweassa1
06-21-2017, 04:40 PM
IMO the current "MAXIMUM possible block damage" in game, which Shugokis can do with a 173% block damage setting via T3 feat "Punch Through" and the +73% block damage weapon piece, should be the norm.

If we believe the current community report about damage values(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0), system-wise light attacks do not deal any block damage, and ZAs, non-targeted sprinting attacks, and heavy attacks do,

The Shugoki has the strongest block damage in that 1st top heavy at 5, 1st side heavy at 2, and 2nd hit of combo heavy at 3. The ZA does 2+2 = 4 damage, With a total of 173% block damage buff these values are at buffed up at 2.73 times higher numbers, as with following:

● top heavy-heavy = 21.84
● side heavy-heavy = 13.64
● ZA = 10.92

Average light attacks are in between 12~15 damage, with only seelct few classes(Kensei, Nobush) higher than that. In other words, a successful block against Shugoki attack combos will do at minimum as much as a weak light attack, and at maximum a strong light attack damage, Personally, in my experience this much block damage feels relevant enough to matter in combat and encourage aggressive attacks. In Dominion I'd actually recommend the Punch Through + max Block damage setting for Shugoki players rather than using the damage resistance ones.


The Raider is also another strong candidate with quite relevant amount of base block damage, so that even just a 173% block damage value from just the weapon piece, it's still quite impressive.

● top heavy-heavy-heavy = 19.03
● side heavy-heavy-heavy = 17


Also, since block damage is only available on heavies, it means even with high block damage there are considerable risk of being parried and is inherently "spam-proof", so to speak.


This means on average, each heavy attack should be doing around default 5 damage to really matter in game. Currently, aside from a few classes like the Shugoki or the Raider, on average most classes do between 2~4 damage on each heavy attacks blocked.

IMO, as a rule, at default, conceptually/realistically "weak" weapons should be doing about 4 damage per block, bigger/longer weapons at 5 damage per block, and the heaviest, strongest hitters with big-arse poleweapons should be at 6.

So, something like this:

● one handed/"light" weapons: peacekeeper, warlord, shinobi, centurion = 4 damage with top heavies. 3 damage with side heavies and combo heavies(2nd attack and more)
● "normal" sized weapons: warden, orochi, valkyrie = 5 damage with top heavies, 4 damage with side heavies and combo heavies
● 'heavy" weapons/pole weapons = raider, lawbringer, nobushi, kensei, = 6 damage with top heavies, 5 damage with side heavies and combo heavies
● exceptional "heavy hitters" = conqueror, shugoki, berserker = 7 damage with top heavies, 6 damage with combo heavies and side heavies

These values should be the "default".

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 04:45 PM
Even if the Serker becomes beast it will be a nice change of pace, the meta will shift and with every shifting meta always brings new top tiers. I'm okay with a new top tier because for too long its been Warden / Warlord. also maybe make GB's a bit harder to time so that people will actually throw them out instead of only doing GB off a Parry or a Block to punish (like Kensei side dash swing)

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 04:47 PM
IMO the current "MAXIMUM possible block damage" in game, which Shugokis can do with a 173% block damage setting via T3 feat "Punch Through" and the +73% block damage weapon piece, should be the norm.

If we believe the current community report about damage values(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0), system-wise light attacks do not deal any block damage, and ZAs, non-targeted sprinting attacks, and heavy attacks do,

The Shugoki has the strongest block damage in that 1st top heavy at 5, 1st side heavy at 2, and 2nd hit of combo heavy at 3. The ZA does 2+2 = 4 damage, With a total of 173% block damage buff these values are at buffed up at 2.73 times higher numbers, as with following:

● top heavy-heavy = 21.84
● side heavy-heavy = 13.64
● ZA = 10.92

Average light attacks are in between 12~15 damage, with only seelct few classes(Kensei, Nobush) higher than that. In other words, a successful block against Shugoki attack combos will do at minimum as much as a weak light attack, and at maximum a strong light attack damage, Personally, in my experience this much block damage feels relevant enough to matter in combat and encourage aggressive attacks. In Dominion I'd actually recommend the Punch Through + max Block damage setting for Shugoki players rather than using the damage resistance ones.


The Raider is also another strong candidate with quite relevant amount of base block damage, so that even just a 173% block damage value from just the weapon piece, it's still quite impressive.

● top heavy-heavy-heavy = 19.03
● side heavy-heavy-heavy = 17


Also, since block damage is only available on heavies, it means even with high block damage there are considerable risk of being parried and is inherently "spam-proof", so to speak.


This means on average, each heavy attack should be doing around default 5 damage to really matter in game. Currently, aside from a few classes like the Shugoki or the Raider, on average most classes do between 2~4 damage on each heavy attacks blocked.

IMO, as a rule, at default, conceptually/realistically "weak" weapons should be doing about 4 damage per block, bigger/longer weapons at 5 damage per block, and the heaviest, strongest hitters with big-arse poleweapons should be at 6.

So, something like this:

● one handed/"light" weapons: peacekeeper, warlord, shinobi, centurion = 4 damage with top heavies. 3 damage with side heavies and combo heavies(2nd attack and more)
● "normal" sized weapons: warden, orochi, valkyrie = 5 damage with top heavies, 4 damage with side heavies and combo heavies
● 'heavy" weapons/pole weapons = raider, lawbringer, nobushi, kensei, = 6 damage with top heavies, 5 damage with side heavies and combo heavies
● exceptional "heavy hitters" = conqueror, shugoki, berserker = 7 damage with top heavies, 6 damage with combo heavies and side heavies

These values should be the "default".

I like the math and logic behind this post. Well said Friend! :cool:

Gray360UK
06-21-2017, 04:50 PM
It's more complicated then that. In my opinion the reason for defensive gameplay is from reward that counter attacking gives. For example if I see that opponent is good at parring attacks I won't attack him because it's almost like giving him free damage. That's why I said that chip damage alone won't be good and the whole system should be rebalanced.

Exactly this. On Peacekeeper for example, if I do a Sidestep Strike first, and my opponent reacts to it, blocks, dodges or parries it, then I am left staggered and vulnerable and they are free to hit me over the head.

If they move first, I am free to Sidestep Strike around their incoming attack, they are comitted and can no longer block, dodge or parry my attack, and they end up with my sword stuck in their side.

Easy to see why the one who turtles (which isn't just about blocking or hiding behind a shield, it's about not going first) has an advantage. As you say, the solution isn't as simple as increasing chip damage.

Shizzle117
06-21-2017, 04:58 PM
Exactly this. On Peacekeeper for example, if I do a Sidestep Strike first, and my opponent reacts to it, blocks, dodges or parries it, then I am left staggered and vulnerable and they are free to hit me over the head.

If they move first, I am free to Sidestep Strike around their incoming attack, they are comitted and can no longer block, dodge or parry my attack, and they end up with my sword stuck in their side.

Easy to see why the one who turtles (which isn't just about blocking or hiding behind a shield, it's about not going first) has an advantage. As you say, the solution isn't as simple as increasing chip damage.

Under Peacekeeper it says Counter Attacker as a class definition, and I think this example is more about PK play style then turtle meta. I Believe if you just Feint the PK and GB any dodge she does is countered by more or less by a mind game. The best turtles IMO are the ones with a start up like Warlord / Conq / LB and that's who i think the chip damage will effect the most.

kweassa1
06-21-2017, 05:21 PM
Exactly this. On Peacekeeper for example, if I do a Sidestep Strike first, and my opponent reacts to it, blocks, dodges or parries it, then I am left staggered and vulnerable and they are free to hit me over the head.

If they move first, I am free to Sidestep Strike around their incoming attack, they are comitted and can no longer block, dodge or parry my attack, and they end up with my sword stuck in their side.

Easy to see why the one who turtles (which isn't just about blocking or hiding behind a shield, it's about not going first) has an advantage. As you say, the solution isn't as simple as increasing chip damage.

You're right about that. The "turtle meta" is a result of many different things, and certainly increasing the block damage alone will not fix it.

As I've laid out in my old post, "[REPORT] The DEFINITIVE Fix to Turtling and Class Imbalance (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1654285-REPORT-The-DEFINITIVE-Fix-to-Turtling-and-Class-Imbalance?highlight=definitive)", one of the things I believe will impact FH for the better, towards solving the "turtle meta" is the removal of normal blocks interrupting light attacks.

As you've mentioned in other thread, about how you want "fluid" attacks to be a thing -- which I agree wholeheartedly -- the one largest factor that stops any of the classes from being able to be fluid in their attacks is the fact that light attacks -- the combo initiator for all classes -- are interrupted by blocks. In an environment where blatant heavy attacks are discouraged due to parries, most classes try to find opening with attacks that start out with lights -- except every attack is stopped dead in its tracks after a successful block.

What this does, is:

(1) limit the number of attacks thrown
(2) slows the pace of the game down where both combatants throw around 1 attack at a time
(3) which in turn becomes a negative feedback loop where defense becomes easier, because the basic structure of combat in FH is both combatants trading 1 attack each

The centurion, which people have trouble adjusting to, is off this trend and has a chockful of moves that span out despite on block, and forces the player to react differently on each occasion. Also a relative example would be the Shugoki, which despite having only two combo moves -- light-heavy and heavy-heavy -- is surprisingly a strong class in combat which can afford to be a bit more aggressive than the rest -- and this is thanks to how his combo initiating light attack is not interrupted.

UbiNoty
06-22-2017, 03:05 AM
You're right about that. The "turtle meta" is a result of many different things, and certainly increasing the block damage alone will not fix it.

As I've laid out in my old post, "[REPORT] The DEFINITIVE Fix to Turtling and Class Imbalance (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1654285-REPORT-The-DEFINITIVE-Fix-to-Turtling-and-Class-Imbalance?highlight=definitive)", one of the things I believe will impact FH for the better, towards solving the "turtle meta" is the removal of normal blocks interrupting light attacks.

As you've mentioned in other thread, about how you want "fluid" attacks to be a thing -- which I agree wholeheartedly -- the one largest factor that stops any of the classes from being able to be fluid in their attacks is the fact that light attacks -- the combo initiator for all classes -- are interrupted by blocks. In an environment where blatant heavy attacks are discouraged due to parries, most classes try to find opening with attacks that start out with lights -- except every attack is stopped dead in its tracks after a successful block.

What this does, is:

(1) limit the number of attacks thrown
(2) slows the pace of the game down where both combatants throw around 1 attack at a time
(3) which in turn becomes a negative feedback loop where defense becomes easier, because the basic structure of combat in FH is both combatants trading 1 attack each

The centurion, which people have trouble adjusting to, is off this trend and has a chockful of moves that span out despite on block, and forces the player to react differently on each occasion. Also a relative example would be the Shugoki, which despite having only two combo moves -- light-heavy and heavy-heavy -- is surprisingly a strong class in combat which can afford to be a bit more aggressive than the rest -- and this is thanks to how his combo initiating light attack is not interrupted.

Think I may have missed your original post on this but I'd like to bring it to light with the team once again. I think constant reinforcement is probably one of the best ways to make sure the devs take notice and listen to you all.

kweassa1
06-22-2017, 05:33 AM
Think I may have missed your original post on this but I'd like to bring it to light with the team once again. I think constant reinforcement is probably one of the best ways to make sure the devs take notice and listen to you all.

Oh crap... I just realized my prior forum handle, which has been snuffed by the freak spam filter accident, probably "blinded" that post as well.

I'll snap up a new version.



Please send this link over to the devs, if you need it. Thx again Noty.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1692729-The-Definitive-Set-of-Suggested-Fixes-to-address-Turtlemeta-and-Class-imbalance

Mia.Nora
06-22-2017, 06:38 AM
That problem about Light Attack Combos being stopped by blocks.. I brought it up 4 months ago, and you (yep remember it) even forwarded it to the team back then.

It feels like we are all stuck in a limbo where our everyday is the same as yesterday and we are never able to move onto tomorrow..

SK-LorD4rk
06-22-2017, 07:10 AM
Think I may have missed your original post on this but I'd like to bring it to light with the team once again. I think constant reinforcement is probably one of the best ways to make sure the devs take notice and listen to you all.

Thanks UbiNoty. Please also reinforce these if applicable:

For Honor 2.0 (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1676804-For-Honor-2-0-Forums)
War of the Factions Now and Then (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1629264-War-of-the-Factions-Now-and-Then-Forums)

I deeply love this game and the idea behind it. Unfortunately, all my friends already quit it, due to the current state of the game. :(
Wish the dev team best of luck in pulling another "R6-like" turn of events with this franchise!

Although several times this community seems to wanna "kill" you, in reality, we all deeply love this jewel and want it to be a huge success and not be simply forgotten.

UbiNoty
06-23-2017, 01:43 AM
Thanks UbiNoty. Please also reinforce these if applicable:

For Honor 2.0 (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1676804-For-Honor-2-0-Forums)
War of the Factions Now and Then (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1629264-War-of-the-Factions-Now-and-Then-Forums)

I deeply love this game and the idea behind it. Unfortunately, all my friends already quit it, due to the current state of the game. :(
Wish the dev team best of luck in pulling another "R6-like" turn of events with this franchise!

Although several times this community seems to wanna "kill" you, in reality, we all deeply love this jewel and want it to be a huge success and not be simply forgotten.

Will do!

The_B0G_
06-23-2017, 01:49 AM
Am I wrong, isn't block damage technically chip damage?

Gray360UK
06-23-2017, 01:57 AM
Am I wrong, isn't block damage technically chip damage?

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

Problem is it does next to nothing to discourage turtles / the defensive meta at the moment. I had a huge block damage stat pre season 2 and I don't think it made a lot of difference. Now in Season 2 I don't think anyone bothers with it because Defense Penetration is vastly superior. What people want, is more block damage (I'm not sure why ithey're calling it chip damage) so that if all you do is block / sit behind a shield, you take enough damage to stop that being so viable.

I think they should make it that if you block with a shield too many times in a row your shield breaks and you fall over personally ;)

kweassa1
06-23-2017, 06:13 AM
Yes, that's exactly what it is.

Problem is it does next to nothing to discourage turtles / the defensive meta at the moment. I had a huge block damage stat pre season 2 and I don't think it made a lot of difference. Now in Season 2 I don't think anyone bothers with it because Defense Penetration is vastly superior. What people want, is more block damage (I'm not sure why ithey're calling it chip damage) so that if all you do is block / sit behind a shield, you take enough damage to stop that being so viable.

It's still viable, but only for select few classes -- unfortunately. The 3 classes that get the most out of current Block Damage settings are the Shugoki, Conqueror and the Raider... and there are also 2 classes of Kensei and Nobushi that could somewhat make good use of it, though much more limited than the 3.

Rikuto01.tv
06-23-2017, 11:08 AM
How would we feel if they added slightly more chip damage to break the block only meta. if you added 25% chip damages on lights and heavies (so if a light does 12 it would do 4 damage and if a heavy does 40 on block it would do 10) this would encourage more people to attempt to parry or deflect instead of just stand there and block. Also i was considering boosting the chip damage to 50% when out of stamina so that everyone can punish someone who's out of stamina not just certain heros. I'm curious on the communities thoughts :cool:

All that will do is force you to parry everything. Which you can.

kweassa1
06-23-2017, 02:18 PM
All that will do is force you to parry everything. Which you can.

Why do people complain about the centurion then?

* dodge everything -- which, you can
* parry all his attacks -- which, you can
* avoid ganks -- which, you can

You're falling into the "negative for the purpose of negativity" trap here.

If both sides can parry and dodge and block everything, why doesn't the fight always end in a stalemate again?