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Capoupacap
06-21-2017, 01:50 PM
Because 4vs4 isn't playable anymore, I invest more time in duel and brawl. Here is a couple of comments that concern Cent and shinobi, but may be general FH design. That's why this thread will be in two part ;)

Concerning centurion if we have to consider it has a Brutal close combat fighter, there is a couple of issues when you are fighting against him, especially in duel where the map are very small:

- A single mistake against him is too heavily punished. There is a huge problem with his design while speaking about how much stamina he drains and the damage he is able to make in so few hits. If you consider the whole rooster, landing a heavy should be much more difficult for him.

- His tracking is a real issue.

- Is unblokable and heavy forward jump to go way too far. Let's make a video of our cent in the olympics triple jump :)


The big issue with Cent, is a bit like what we had with the centurion at game start. Massive, some like spammable damage and (sorry) not really fun to fight against. While I tried to play with, I do find this heroes to have a quit poor mixup game.


What I really like in centurion gameplay:

His kick after a blocked heavy is actually a mechanism that is very interesting against turtle. It should be developed and could reinforce the guard break mechanism for all character. It's a serious option to give attack a slight reward.

The guard break opening after a light hit is also interresting.


What are general mechanism in the rooster that are interesting:

1) The conqueror heavy reply (when you press heavy, the attack bounce on the shield and you send immediately and attack)

2) Guard break on heavy without feint seen with cent and PK

3) Valkiry fallback on total defense

4) Kick on heavy blocked of centurion

I don't know what Roman prepare us for the defense meta fix, but I think DLC 2 could come with a new general add for attack to help break defense.

XxHunterHxX
06-21-2017, 02:36 PM
they ir cancer and they need to be nerfed ALOT

Gray360UK
06-21-2017, 02:46 PM
They would be great if the other characters matched them. They are like they belong in a different game. Maybe vanilla Peacekeeper would fit well in the same game they belong in. But most of the other characters in the roster are made to look like noobs just because of how much of a step up in fluid combat design the Centurion and the Shinobi are. It's like Ubisoft poured everything they had learned about advanced combat capabilities into the Season 2 characters and then released them into the pool completely unaware of the impact they would have on the massively inferior Season 1 characters.

The difference between Season 1 and Season 2 characters reminds me of the difference between the original Terminator in the 1984 film and the liquid metal one in the 2nd film ;)

https://media.giphy.com/media/MWHSctvIxbWHS/giphy.gif

Lyskir
06-21-2017, 03:03 PM
@ Gray360UK



100000% This

Capoupacap
06-21-2017, 03:45 PM
They would be great if the other characters matched them. They are like they belong in a different game. Maybe vanilla Peacekeeper would fit well in the same game they belong in. But most of the other characters in the roster are made to look like noobs just because of how much of a step up in fluid combat design the Centurion and the Shinobi are. It's like Ubisoft poured everything they had learned about advanced combat capabilities into the Season 2 characters and then released them into the pool completely unaware of the impact they would have on the massively inferior Season 1 characters.

The difference between Season 1 and Season 2 characters reminds me of the difference between the original Terminator in the 1984 film and the liquid metal one in the 2nd film ;)

https://media.giphy.com/media/MWHSctvIxbWHS/giphy.gif


Lol yes it's a bit like that. The objective of this post was to show general idea beetween cent and shinobi are actually very nice because it's brand new concept...but the tool they get just make the only two strong anti turtle...specially if we are speaking about cheap turtle :p

Why not considering adding new base move to the game instead of giving it to two specific character ?

Thorsein
06-21-2017, 03:51 PM
Nerf to "spamturions"!

Gray360UK
06-21-2017, 04:12 PM
Why not considering adding new base move to the game instead of giving it to two specific character ?

Exactly, my thoughts too. I don't know how much of a re-work that would require, but it's the fairest solution. Each character needs a flowing chain of moves that are as powerful as the ones the season 2 characters have if that's the direction the game is going in. At present it feels like Season 2 is part 2 of For Honor, a different chapter, rather than a continuation of the same game.

As mentioned above, Peacekeeper almost fits into this new world. Her Guardbreak into double stab into kick away into forward lunge is almost as good, but if we want her to match the Season 2 characters, then her Guardbreak would need to be unblockable, and so would her forward lunge. I know, I know, I can hear the screams of terror already. But do this to all of the characters and the playing field might just become level again.

What you can't do is give some of the heroes a fluid chain of unblockable events that spell almost certain doom and the rest two viable moves that they end up having to spam (Conqueror shield bash / hit / shield bash / hit and Warden shoulder bash vortex to give just two examples).

kweassa1
06-21-2017, 04:45 PM
Exactly, my thoughts too. I don't know how much of a re-work that would require, but it's the fairest solution. Each character needs a flowing chain of moves that are as powerful as the ones the season 2 characters have if that's the direction the game is going in. At present it feels like Season 2 is part 2 of For Honor, a different chapter, rather than a continuation of the same game.

As mentioned above, Peacekeeper almost fits into this new world. Her Guardbreak into double stab into kick away into forward lunge is almost as good, but if we want her to match the Season 2 characters, then her Guardbreak would need to be unblockable, and so would her forward lunge. I know, I know, I can hear the screams of terror already. But do this to all of the characters and the playing field might just become level again.

What you can't do is give some of the heroes a fluid chain of unblockable events that spell almost certain doom and the rest two viable moves that they end up having to spam (Conqueror shield bash / hit / shield bash / hit and Warden shoulder bash vortex to give just two examples).

Or, conversely, remove the "superior vs. light attacks" status from all normal blocks (!) .

KiahsRevenge
06-21-2017, 11:19 PM
They would be great if the other characters matched them. They are like they belong in a different game. Maybe vanilla Peacekeeper would fit well in the same game they belong in. But most of the other characters in the roster are made to look like noobs just because of how much of a step up in fluid combat design the Centurion and the Shinobi are. It's like Ubisoft poured everything they had learned about advanced combat capabilities into the Season 2 characters and then released them into the pool completely unaware of the impact they would have on the massively inferior Season 1 characters.

The difference between Season 1 and Season 2 characters reminds me of the difference between the original Terminator in the 1984 film and the liquid metal one in the 2nd film ;)

https://media.giphy.com/media/MWHSctvIxbWHS/giphy.gif

I agree completely!

UbiNoty
06-22-2017, 12:11 AM
I think we've said before that we're open to the idea of revamping the kits of our OG-12, but that big of an undertaking would definitely take some time and resources.

So let's do this. I see you seem to feel that PK could use a few slight buffs before she would be on par with the S2 heroes, but what about the other heroes? What kinds of moves do you think could be feasibly added to their kit to make them more dynamic fighters while still staying true to their core spirit/essential playstyle? I'm asking because if I can bring back the devs some good ideas (over just "do this") we can help them lay a good foundation of ideas that might be convincing enough to get their mental gears rolling.

Lyskir
06-22-2017, 12:19 AM
Or, conversely, remove the "superior vs. light attacks" status from all normal blocks (!) .


THEN u have to give ALL heroes 500 ms lights

cuz if this happens assasins or heroes with super fast lights would be damn op

Thorsein
06-22-2017, 12:58 AM
I think it would be interesting that all the characters had at least one unlockable attack. I for example play with berserk which is a class that is based almost completely on attack, but has no combat opener, no unblockable and this logically comes down to a huge difficulty against more defensive classes. The problem is that some people have a lot of something that others have little or simply do not have. In the specific case of berserk I think it would be interesting something like a shoulder attack just to open the opponent's defense or a more effective way of knocking him off some cliff, or any of the attacks that the berserk already possesses becomes unblockable, the space + w + Heavy attack for example

brashtralas
06-22-2017, 01:09 AM
Exactly, my thoughts too. I don't know how much of a re-work that would require, but it's the fairest solution. Each character needs a flowing chain of moves that are as powerful as the ones the season 2 characters have if that's the direction the game is going in. At present it feels like Season 2 is part 2 of For Honor, a different chapter, rather than a continuation of the same game.

As mentioned above, Peacekeeper almost fits into this new world. Her Guardbreak into double stab into kick away into forward lunge is almost as good, but if we want her to match the Season 2 characters, then her Guardbreak would need to be unblockable, and so would her forward lunge. I know, I know, I can hear the screams of terror already. But do this to all of the characters and the playing field might just become level again.

What you can't do is give some of the heroes a fluid chain of unblockable events that spell almost certain doom and the rest two viable moves that they end up having to spam (Conqueror shield bash / hit / shield bash / hit and Warden shoulder bash vortex to give just two examples).

Please, no. Who wants the game to go this direction? It's not even the same game as it was in season 1, unless you manage a match without the new classes.

All strategy, gone.

kweassa1
06-22-2017, 01:46 AM
Please, no. Who wants the game to go this direction? It's not even the same game as it was in season 1, unless you manage a match without the new classes.

All strategy, gone.

I disagree.

While people just diss the cent from top to bottom, if we really break it down the actual bit with the cent most people have problems with is the abundance of guaranteed parts of his attacks. If the abundance of stupid stuff like....

- stuns on kicks obscuring vision to make it easy for heavies to land
- jab guaranteed on normal heavy hits
- light guaranteed on jab
- full-charged heavy always landing on certain conditions (light parry)
- full-charged jab guaranteed on full charged heavy
- eagle talon guaranteed on full charged jab...

...which people hate... but speaking on purely combat-mechanics-terms, fighting against a decent centurion player with the flow and continuity of his moveset and the resulting aggressive nature of his attacks, is much more interesting in that fighting other classes, because as diverse and aggressive his attacks are, there are many different counter-points along the way to make it more than just the repetition of "light - blocked - stop - stare - light - blocked - stop - stare" repetition.

Starting from the legion kick, on successful dodge you are prompted a quick decision to try a counter attack, or expect an immediate charged heavy to come out and try to counter that.... If you decide the latter then you are again prompted to make a split-second decision to wait it out to be a full-charged UB, and parry it if you're skilled enough, or to dodge it at the right time if you don't want the risk... or if the centurion wants to stop your GB or light attack with a quick, uncharged heavy.... If you're hit by a normal heavy you brace yourself for a normal jab and then the incoming light, and then lookout for the quickthrow... if you see a centurion blatantly opening up with a quick heavy you prepare for an incoming full-charged heavy as the next attack, and then again make more dynamic decisions.... and etc etc..

What people find unbearable is that any mistake during this process leads to huge amounts of punishment, but again, purely mechanics-wise, something like this is way more interesting to fight against than other classes = because the attacks run fluid, without being stopped, and has UBs mixed in during the flow that complicates your defense strategy than just being able to block once and the entire attack stops there... or attacks coming in at always the same set up intervals, making it extremely easy to anticipate and parry,

Like said, with other classes, its basically... throw light ... opponent blocks.. all stop... stare some more... opponent throws light... you block.. attack stopped... both try feints a few times... one falls for it.. parry... damage... back up... reset fight... stare... is this not the very essence of the turtle meta you guys hate so much??




As much as you guys would hate to hear, and probably loathe to admit == the base design philosophy of the centurion and the shinobi is in the right direction.

The FATAL mistake with those classes currently, is how the devs gave them too much guaranteed stuff in between those fluid attacks, on a base class design that is very alien to season1 FH conditions, which, unfortunately, clearly indicates that it was too much for the average casual gamer to adapt to.

But again -- this is important -- mechanics wise, the cent shows us some specific traits in the form of...

● combos relying on quicker activating heavies = not interrupted by block, fluid set of attacks
● combos relying on chargeable heavies = tricky timing, inherently resistant to the "parry game"
● combos with UBs mixed in = forces dynamic choices of defense than just block, inherently resistant to "turtling"


They actually DID give us an interesting solution. The devs DID think this through. The mistake was making it too effective with too many guarantees on too heavy damage. Remove those defects and it really IS the design FH should be going for.

Gray is right.

kweassa1
06-22-2017, 01:53 AM
(ps) THINK about it. The uninterrupted flow and continuous attack attempts, and each attacks requiring dynamic methods of defense than just standing ground and blocking once = does this not remind you of something? That's basically how other fighting games' combat flow is designed. Faster attack pace, requiring more movement, less advantageous to turtles.

The problem with the cent is sort of like a problem with too powerful/OP classes in Tekken or VF, so comparatively speaking, it's like a character in Tekken would be floating and juggling opponents into combos with just easy and quick low-attack, or a simple one-two jab punishment leading directly into huge guaranteed combo-juggle... but if this problem is corrected, the flow and style of combat is what FH should be heading for.

dragon7jdc
06-22-2017, 02:07 AM
While i agree with giving all hero unblockables and make them more fluid. thats really good for 1v1. but in 1v2,3,4 fights its nightmare. just wanted to pointed this pout. but i toatly agree with giving all heros UB moves.

kweassa1
06-22-2017, 02:51 AM
While i agree with giving all hero unblockables and make them more fluid. thats really good for 1v1. but in 1v2,3,4 fights its nightmare. just wanted to pointed this pout. but i toatly agree with giving all heros UB moves.

IMO it's less about the UBs and more about removing the superior light block from normal guard.


Someone mentioned if this would not make assassins too powerful -- but of course, getting rid of superior light block would mean other supplementary changes would have to come with it -- for example, greatly lowering block recovery frames so a successful initial block definitely yields greater initiative, as well as more supplementary changes such as less tracking angle/distance per attack.

For example, the infamous PK light-light spamming. The goal is to increase fluidity through removing superior light block from normal guards. Then a PK will be free to attempt the fast 2nd light attack in any of the directions despite first light being blocked. So will it be just spam heaven for the assassins and their quick lights?

Not so when reducing the block recovery frames which will in turn, make it possible for the recipient of the attack to dodge the 2nd light for an immediate counter. So the PK will be able to "spam" the 2nd light despite the 1st light being blocked, but in turn, the receiving player can block the 1st attack and then immediately dodge the 2nd light attack on reaction. So it brings out another dynamic mind-game involved with general combat strategy. The PK can "spam" her light-light, which will be countered by the recipient successfully blocking the PK's 1st light and immediately dodging the 2nd for a counter attack, which is in turn countered by the PK faking it to do a light→GB, which is again countered by the recipient blocking the 1st light and then immediately doing a light attack of one's own to punch through the GB attempt (made possible due to smaller block recovery frames).

Of course, on general scale the damage of lights should be slightly nerfed down since the changes would bring about a faster pace of game with more light hits occuring. As a matter of fact I'd even prefer all heavy attacks be sped-up to the centurion heavy attack levels or slightly slower, and also receive a damage nerf, Faster pace of attacks, more hits as well as dynamic defense attempts happening, and less punishment on failure to encourage people to try and do more things than just stare-concentrate-block.

Aarpian
06-22-2017, 03:31 PM
I think we've said before that we're open to the idea of revamping the kits of our OG-12, but that big of an undertaking would definitely take some time and resources.

So let's do this. I see you seem to feel that PK could use a few slight buffs before she would be on par with the S2 heroes, but what about the other heroes? What kinds of moves do you think could be feasibly added to their kit to make them more dynamic fighters while still staying true to their core spirit/essential playstyle? I'm asking because if I can bring back the devs some good ideas (over just "do this") we can help them lay a good foundation of ideas that might be convincing enough to get their mental gears rolling.

Conqueror should head more toward the direction of heavy harasser rather than heavy hard-hitter. Remove the stamina costs associated with activating his full block, give him 500ms lights, allow him to charge his heavies mid-combo, reduce his stamina costs (and possibly stamina recovery rate) and lower the heavy shieldbash activation to 500ms. Stop light shield bash guaranteeing any damage, get rid of superior block, allow lights to chain on block.

Low damage harassment and mixups with a degree of safety to compensate should be his focus. Superior block is just an awful mechanic - maybe change it to allow him to partially prevent damage from unblockables at the cost of some stamina.

Capoupacap
06-22-2017, 04:21 PM
Well that's interesting Ubinoty.

Counter Move:


In some games you can see some like counter move while being inside a combo. Conqueror has introduce it and I always felt it like being under exploited. You could use that in two ways: Defense and Attack.

The idea is to use the light attack button exactly the same way a parry works BUT it doesn't open to a GB. Just on a light attack combo.every heroes got one.

Defense:

Same mechanism than the conqueror reply with heavy attack. You have to press the button just before being hitted. Being "counter" does cost any stamina to the attack but cost slightly mush to the defender to avoid exploit.

Attack:

The main idea is to give light attack something interesting and reward attack attempt. For the moment, a blocked one stop your move while you introduced a tweak on the kensei that makes him much more fun play against and much more versatile. You should consider this opportunity for other heroes...that make the fight more "active"

You could so consider to raise up the speed of attack after some block...or even transform the last heavy on the combo to a unblocable (see below, brutality)...Just like the heroes is pissed of by the defender :p

Another option, is to give opportunity on block to open the guard. Like the attacker has to press GB when the sword is blocked (on the sound).

I'm quite afraid with the anti Turtle meta work because i would like FH to stay very focused on defense. It's just you should reward attack try in some way.


You introduce this with the centurion and this mechanism has to be "shared" with the hole roaster but please balance it ;)

Feint:

Some character (shinobi, pk, valk, etc) are mostly played on light attack. Some would call it spam but anyway. Feint against these character a even more dangerous because the time your feint finish, these character can land a light attack. While their speed makes them good opener, it actually work like a stop on attack try with more slower character.

The idea here is to give this feint on heavy without feinting more general. I think some tweak on the recovery could be interesting to give opportunity to quickly switch guard to land at least a light...

Dodging

Assassin have this opportunity to punish if they succeed a timed dodge on attack. In some way, you could work on this and again for defense and attack.

Defense:

If the actual mechanism has to stay for assassin, other character could use that mechanism to lauch a counter move. It's risky and require some skill, I think that's what you are looking in FH.

Attack:

1) All character that actually have this dodge + attack move should be able to continue a combo on block. The is not a single dodge attack move that can't be easily parried. You have done it for kensei and again it was really nice.

If the attacker is dodged on a heavy attack, they should be able to make a quick move to "stunt" the enemy...That would offer to all heroes a very could reply to these dancing opponent.


Brutality

Centurion has introduced this playstyle that offer him a way to actually break defense opportunity. A well know combat strategy is to fixed opponent defense with some light work to be able to prepare a more heavy attack. That was the idea of the Kensei move (2 heavy goes to an unblocable). There is some comment on this forum that ask for all heroes to have an unblocable heavy attack.

This specific move of the kensei is very interesting because it force commitment of the defender (Parry, dodge or being screwed :p) and is quite rewarding for the attacker. This option could be interesting for all heroes and for one specific combo if blocked.

The idea of "brutality" is not to transform FH in a spammable Beat'm'all but to reward attack try.


Anyway I hope these will help and in advance sorry if the text was someway difficult to understand, english is not my favorite :p

CaynAldan
06-22-2017, 05:44 PM
I think agressive heroes need counter-techniques for parry and block like cent. At this moment, a lot of combats seems old-fashion chinese martial arts movies: staring at opponent, 2 or 3 hits and blocks, staring again.

The differences between new heroes and old ones is new heroes can react to blocks, not only to attacks.
If you have a counter for attack, for dodge and for GB, why not for blocking and parrying?

Real fencer do attatcks, counter-attacks and counter-counter-attacks

Other thing should be changed is the free gb when dodge backwards: It have no sense that, when you are "creating space" you give a free gb. The counter for that should be a lunge attack (or is it springe attack in english?), a dash-forward attack

brashtralas
06-22-2017, 08:11 PM
I play on console. There really isn't a turtle meta. I play as lawbringer aggressively. I would like the first string in a combo to ignore block(as in continues the combo, but the damage was still blocked) so that more combination variety was available, but that's a different point.

The centurion is so much the antithesis to the "turtle meta" that he's just as bad, in the opposite direction. Blocking is non-existent against a centurion, because his attacks don't need to be normal, ever.

It's always UB, CC, UI, GB, pinning, or the occasional super-fast light--->guaranteed GB.

I repped up my centurion. I understand him quite well. He's not fun to play against, and really not all that fun to play as.

Oupyz
06-23-2017, 12:54 AM
Centurion is the most fun class to play , they really did a great job with the seasons 2 heroes , if they can bring the OG 12 heroes to shinobi and cent level , they would first fix the defensive meta , second the game will be super fun to play , finaly no more meta whooooree gameplay , defender can't block everything anymore he got to learn how to attack to win , they could leave parry as is , speeding heavy attack to cent level and more UB after attacks

i actually do think Cent is the best designed hero by far

gg on that Ubisoft

Capoupacap
06-23-2017, 08:37 AM
It seems lot pf people agree with the fact there is some like a second step done with second dlc character.

That's why this idea of add general move to all character witj each dlc was proposed instead of designing 2 "antithesis" one

Rikuto01.tv
06-23-2017, 09:07 AM
I think we've said before that we're open to the idea of revamping the kits of our OG-12, but that big of an undertaking would definitely take some time and resources.

So let's do this. I see you seem to feel that PK could use a few slight buffs before she would be on par with the S2 heroes, but what about the other heroes? What kinds of moves do you think could be feasibly added to their kit to make them more dynamic fighters while still staying true to their core spirit/essential playstyle? I'm asking because if I can bring back the devs some good ideas (over just "do this") we can help them lay a good foundation of ideas that might be convincing enough to get their mental gears rolling.

The core issue with FH character design comes down to a lack of unreactable 50/50 situations. These situations are actually very necessary because they favor a successful resolution to attempts at offense, which is something FH lacks for many characters unless they are playing in a team environment.As much as people complain about zone flicker, these things are actually good for the game because it gives SOMETHING a player can use to reach a resolution, and as they are tied to high stamina use that tool also has limitations.

In a typical fighting game, you generally design a character to have its most effective and unreactable attacks limited by close range distance, meter form (stamina in FH's case) or simply being extremely punishable when blocked. In the case of FH, we have a situation where distance isn't really a factor that is tied to effectiveness and this is a problem tied directly into how FH players think the game should be -- with everything totally reactable. This is a fundamental problem that somebody is going to have to get over and just fix. There is no competitive fighting game I can think of that actually keeps the battle the exact same at all distances like FH does. A warden is just as scary at mid range as he is at close range. The same can be said of the PK, since her zone simply attracts to the individual in question like a magnet.

So the problem isn't one of giving every character new moves. The problem is one of your team learning the importance of spacial control in fighting games, and how to reward a player with better offensive options for controlling that.

tldr; choose attacks to speed up to the point they are unreactable mixups, but cripple their range, give them high stamina cost, or make them punishable on block. That is literally all you ever needed to do to make the game work.

Rikuto01.tv
06-23-2017, 09:38 AM
The other thing is your team needs to learn how to sort out which complaints are valid, and which are simply based around ego and are always going to be made no matter what.

If something is resulting in a player losing, then somebody out there is going to complain about it. Very few things currently result in that consistently, so characters like Centurion are naturally going to get all of the complaints. That does not mean anything is wrong with Centurion, and it could even be said that the more complaining you hear about more things being overpowered, the better shape the game is actually in.

Remember that complaints will happen regardless of validity. Just because a complaint is made, and made often, does not give that complaint any credibility. "Fixing" certain things, even by popular demand, can quite often result in putting your game in an even worse situation than it was before.

My.Insanity
06-23-2017, 09:55 AM
Okay here are a few ideas to bring the old 12 Heros to Cent lvl.

Increase the Stamina of all Heros.. Centurio got the most Stamina of all Heros ingame and still gut feats which give him more Stamina (like he would need it).

Each Hero need at last 2 unblockable attacks: 1 should be slow (600ms) and the other 1 can only be used as a combo and is guaranteed (like the jab) and each of them should make Stamina dmg (since we increased the Stamina overall that should be no problem)

Each Hero need a Wallsplat combo which takes away nearly 70% of the enemys HP

Each Hero need charged Heavys which can be faint into GB (so you can easy kill the defensiv Meta cuz now there is no clear Timing for parry attacks)

Trust me this will change the game (cuz no one will ever play 4vs4) ;)

Aarpian
06-23-2017, 12:32 PM
The core issue with FH character design comes down to a lack of unreactable 50/50 situations. These situations are actually very necessary because they favor a successful resolution to attempts at offense, which is something FH lacks for many characters unless they are playing in a team environment.As much as people complain about zone flicker, these things are actually good for the game because it gives SOMETHING a player can use to reach a resolution, and as they are tied to high stamina use that tool also has limitations.

In a typical fighting game, you generally design a character to have its most effective and unreactable attacks limited by close range distance, meter form (stamina in FH's case) or simply being extremely punishable when blocked. In the case of FH, we have a situation where distance isn't really a factor that is tied to effectiveness and this is a problem tied directly into how FH players think the game should be -- with everything totally reactable. This is a fundamental problem that somebody is going to have to get over and just fix. There is no competitive fighting game I can think of that actually keeps the battle the exact same at all distances like FH does. A warden is just as scary at mid range as he is at close range. The same can be said of the PK, since her zone simply attracts to the individual in question like a magnet.

So the problem isn't one of giving every character new moves. The problem is one of your team learning the importance of spacial control in fighting games, and how to reward a player with better offensive options for controlling that.

tldr; choose attacks to speed up to the point they are unreactable mixups, but cripple their range, give them high stamina cost, or make them punishable on block. That is literally all you ever needed to do to make the game work.

You might be a weaboo, but that is some quality feedback. Good job.

Draghmar
06-23-2017, 12:41 PM
tldr; choose attacks to speed up to the point they are unreactable mixups, but cripple their range, give them high stamina cost, or make them punishable on block. That is literally all you ever needed to do to make the game work.
FH is not a fighting game in a terms you describing. It's a hybrid.
Guessing game is just cheap design where you can't come up with properly balanced gameplay. It's shortcut. Nothing else.

Rikuto01.tv
06-23-2017, 12:54 PM
FH is not a fighting game in a terms you describing. It's a hybrid.
Guessing game is just cheap design where you can't come up with properly balanced gameplay. It's shortcut. Nothing else.

In the FGC we have a very old mantra, and that is "cheap is a scrub word". Scrub is not meant as an insult here, but rather a very specific term for a specific kind of player.

A person who complains about things being cheap typically does not have a mindset that was ever strong enough for serious competition in the first place. He cannot "deal" with things that are troublesome, and in competition there are troublesome things to deal with regardless of its format. That you use such a word and do not wish FH to be like a fighting game is evidence enough that you are not built for that struggle, so you probably shouldn't worry too much about how the game is designed as that is probably never going to affect your performance level.

Regardless of what you want to call FH in terms of genre, it is melee player vs player and has to follow a specific formula to reach a conclusion that does not involve one person simply giving up and letting the other one win by taking action first. The formula it currently follows does not work on a competitive level for 1v1. For 4's, I would concede it is quite solid.

Draghmar
06-23-2017, 01:04 PM
In the FGC we have a very old mantra, and that is "cheap is a scrub word". Scrub is not meant as an insult here, but rather a very specific term for a specific kind of player.

A person who complains about things being cheap typically does not have a mindset that was ever strong enough for serious competition in the first place. He cannot "deal" with things that are troublesome, and in competition there are troublesome things to deal with regardless of its format. That you use such a word and do not wish FH to be like a fighting game is evidence enough that you are not built for that struggle, so you probably shouldn't worry too much about how the game is designed as that is probably never going to affect your performance level.
Yeah...so if can't deal with someone who says you're wrong with your vision of the game you just came up with the insulting term and because there is group of people to back you up in this claim you feel much better. :)

I had play PvP games (and I played those a lot) that doesn't resolve around *cheap* mechanics just because it's easier to balance. When you introduce guessing it takes away skill in my opinion. You're either have luck or not. And I don't consider remembering movests as a skill...
BTW as a side note: it's not only 50/50 that is cheap. On the game design CC is also considered cheap even if it's for single, not multuplayer.


Regardless of what you want to call FH in terms of genre, it is melee player vs player and has to follow a specific formula to reach a conclusion that does not involve one person simply giving up and letting the other one win by taking action first. The formula it currently follows does not work on a competitive level for 1v1. For 4's, I would concede it is quite solid
That is very interesting what you said here. First of all: there is nothing that force into specific formula. You even always should try to make things better or at least different but on comparable level. Coping things out is boring.
Second: As I see 50/50 is exactly what you described as it shouldn't happen - guess wrong and you're getting beaten.

kweassa1
06-23-2017, 01:29 PM
FH is not a fighting game in a terms you describing. It's a hybrid.
Guessing game is just cheap design where you can't come up with properly balanced gameplay. It's shortcut. Nothing else.

Actually, I beg to differ. The "hybrid" part you mention, IMO is what usually fools, or confuses people into thinking it's not a serious fighting game -- except it is. The majority and trend of fighting games is undeniably the side-view/2-guard system first developed from Japanese games... and also the fact that there hasn't been a really good fighting game in the TPS with a system like this.

There are some contendors, like M&B which is actually more of a fighting game than Dark Souls series, which, despite what the "fanboys" argue is more closer to a hack&slash action game.

Compared to those FH has all the tell-tale signs of a fighting game, less reliance on action/fantastic(relatively) elements, and the typical brutal learning curve seen in the genre.

If you really analyze the game, there's actually even less of a "hybrid" element to be found.

Draghmar
06-23-2017, 01:39 PM
And yet it's still a hybrid game. It has many aspects of the fighting games but there are also things that are made different. But I agree FH can be serious in this aspect. I didn't mean hybrid as a term to milk genre but rather as a way to prevent focusing so much on classic elements, shaping this into another MK or SF when it has diffrent roots and reminding that there is more then 1v1 in this game.

brashtralas
06-23-2017, 06:56 PM
You know, when I woke up this morning, I thought to myself, "Self, what could the For Honor community use more than anything?"

And, you know what? I thought "I know what it needs! Some elitist fighting game "pro" telling everyone how the game should be! That'll draw the community back!"

And, lo and behold, one appears to dictate how the game should be and what genre the game fits in!

Just wow.

Vingrask
06-23-2017, 08:03 PM
Unblockable isn't the answer. Except for the mid chain unblockables like the Kensei, neutral ones are toxic.

Defense needs a cost. Block and parry in fact. Dodge can be hard punished already, but block? Nothing happens when you block. Absolutly nothing. Parry? You just need wait for a safe moment since block cost nothing. Read the enemy, know the hero and you will get the perfect point for punish. For Honor has limited moves, isn't hard know when to act.

So the first balance needed is make block and parry cost something. You want to turtle? No problem, but this will need to be a tactic, you need to commit yourself to that. It can't be a safer place to go. It is a damn fighting game, people need to fight for win! Defend yourself should be a move like attack is, not a room where you can go and hide yourself.

Look how Centurion can be toxic on Duels because his entire kit. He can abuse the free defense, the safe room, and open the door when and if he wants with a lot of unblockable moves. Or wait and wait a safe moment to counter and punish you with a parry to GB. Concerning only about Centurion, the thing I think should be removed is the damn stamina drain. Just it.

The other problems Centurion offer comes from the core defense. Without this safe room and the unfair stamina drain, Centurion would need to really fight. Want to wait a safe moment to parry? No problem, you need to pay for it.