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ElAurens
04-18-2004, 07:00 AM
I am a great fan of the Ki61, and eagerly await the time when I can take to the sky in one. My question is really pretty simple, and perhaps unanswerable at this point.

In my research I find top speed numbers ranging from just under 350mph to just under 380mph for the Ki61. This is a huge disparity. I know that the Hien was faster than the P40s and P39s it encountered early in it's career, and it's intorduction caused the USAAF command to hasten the introduction of the P38 to the Pacific.

Can any light be shed on this?

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ElAurens
04-18-2004, 07:00 AM
I am a great fan of the Ki61, and eagerly await the time when I can take to the sky in one. My question is really pretty simple, and perhaps unanswerable at this point.

In my research I find top speed numbers ranging from just under 350mph to just under 380mph for the Ki61. This is a huge disparity. I know that the Hien was faster than the P40s and P39s it encountered early in it's career, and it's intorduction caused the USAAF command to hasten the introduction of the P38 to the Pacific.

Can any light be shed on this?

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Ruy Horta
04-18-2004, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
In my research I find top speed numbers ranging from just under 350mph to just under 380mph for the Ki61.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bueschel seems to use the same data as Bunrindo.

Ki61-1a 590kph @ 6000m / 368mph @ 19680ft
Ki61-1b 590kph @ 5000m / 368mph @ 16400ft
Ki61-1c 580kph @ 5000m / 363mph @ 16400ft
Ki61-II 610kph @ 6000m / 380mph @ 19680ft

Your max. number agrees with the late model Ki-61-II-KAI, which is a greatly improved a/c, especially the more powerful engine (new Ha 140 vs Ha 40).

The TAIC report is very close with 361 mph @ 15800ft, for what they call the Tony 1 (covering the 1b and 1c).

The lower number of 350mph can simply mean speed at an altitude other than the ideal. OTOH it is also known that the Hien was rushed into service and that its performance was disappointing, mainly due to the difficulties of maintaining a complicated engine like the Ha40 under the tough conditions of the New Guinea campaign.

So your 350mph number might also indicate true performance vs ideal performance.

It would be interesting where you found the low number.

Ruy Horta

One13
04-18-2004, 09:30 AM
The figures I have seen are-
367mph at 19685ft/590kph at 6000m for prototype
360mph at 15405ft/580kph at 5000m for Ki61-I-KAI-hei
379mph at 19685ft/610kph at 6000m for Ki61-II-KAI

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ElAurens
04-18-2004, 09:31 AM
rhorta,

the low figure I used was cited in "Axis Aircraft of World war II" by David Mondey.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Kawasaki Ki-61-Ic. Performance: maximum speed 348mph (560 km/h) at 16,405 ft. (5000 m); service seiling 32,810 ft. (10000 m); maximum range 1,181 miles (1900 km) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I am a fan of this AC, I just don't want to see another KI 84 fiasco...

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faustnik
04-18-2004, 12:27 PM
Ki.61-Ib - 592kph @ 4,850m
Ki.64-I KAIc - 590kph @ 4,260m
Ki.61-II KAIa - 610kph @ 6000m

Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War, Rene Francillon

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GK.
04-18-2004, 01:12 PM
Lets compare specs for the Ki-100, a late war model of the tony. It looks to be pretty badass.
2 20mm
2 mgs
454mph max speed @ 19k feet

If this plane is modeled it will be whined over even more than the hayate. Only around 300 built though, and in 1945. Allies didn't have a codename for it so I believed they just called it "tony" as well.

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chris455
04-18-2004, 01:48 PM
For anyone interested in the actual speed of the Ki-100:

Specification of Kawasaki Ki-100-Ia Army Type 5 Fighter Model 1a:

One Army Type 4 fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radial (Mitsubishi [Ha-33] 62 or Ha-112-II) rated at 1500 hp for takeoff 1350 hp at 6560 feet and 1250 hp at 19,030 feet.

Performance: Maximum speed 360 mph at 19,685 feet and 332 mph at 32,810 feet. An altitude of 16,405 feet could be attained in 6 minutes. Service ceiling 36,090 feet. Maximum range 1367 miles. Dimensions: Wingspan 34 4 7/16 inches, length 28 feet 11 1/4 inches, height 12 feet 3 5/8 inches, wing area 215.3 square feet.

Weights: 5567 pounds empty, 7705 pounds loaded.

Armament: Two fuselage-mounted 20-mm Ho 5 cannon and two wing- mounted 12.7 mm machine guns.

Clearly, 454 mph (as stated in the previous post) is at variance with accepted sources.


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Giganoni
04-18-2004, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
For anyone interested in the __actual__ speed of the Ki-100:

Specification of Kawasaki Ki-100-Ia Army Type 5 Fighter Model 1a:

One Army Type 4 fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radial (Mitsubishi [Ha-33] 62 or Ha-112-II) rated at 1500 hp for takeoff 1350 hp at 6560 feet and 1250 hp at 19,030 feet.

Performance: _Maximum speed 360 mph at 19,685 _ feet and 332 mph at 32,810 feet. An altitude of 16,405 feet could be attained in 6 minutes. Service ceiling 36,090 feet. Maximum range 1367 miles. Dimensions: Wingspan 34 4 7/16 inches, length 28 feet 11 1/4 inches, height 12 feet 3 5/8 inches, wing area 215.3 square feet.

Weights: 5567 pounds empty, 7705 pounds loaded.

Armament: Two fuselage-mounted 20-mm Ho 5 cannon and two wing- mounted 12.7 mm machine guns.

Clearly, 454 mph (as stated in the previous post) is at variance with accepted sources.


http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sources say otherwise Chris, not 454mph (I don't know where GK pulled that one), but that at 32,810 feet (10,000 meter) it could travel 367mph.

Chris Bishop's The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II

Complete Book of World War II Combat Aircraft.

And Gk..stop calling it a late model Hien. It was called by its pilots and groundcrew Goshikisen (simply Type 5 fighter) and the Ki-100 Ib were built completely from scratch.
The Goshikisen was the best fighter you could pilot because it was very easy to fly, had great manuverability, and most importantly, had a very reliable engine.

faustnik
04-18-2004, 02:35 PM
Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War:

Ki-100-I: 580kph @ 6000m

Ki-100-II: 590kph at 10000m

The Ki-100 was an improvement in maneuverability and power-loading over the Ki-61, not an improvement in speed. It was actually slower than the late model Ki-61s.

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chris455
04-18-2004, 02:50 PM
Hi Giganoni,
I know exactly where GK "pulled' his figures from, but let's not go there. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

My source:
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki100.html

Please notice that Francillon is listed as the primary source for this info. I'm not saying your sources are wrong, but simply that we have a variation in the sources.

If Faustnik has a copy of Francillon, it suggests that your high altitude figure may be right. My site has other sources as well.
I don't know whethet the Ki-100 had a single stage supercharger or no, if not, the lower speed sounds more believable to me.

In any case, it's clear that 454mph is nearly 100 mph. faster than the plane was capable of http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

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[This message was edited by chris455 on Sun April 18 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by chris455 on Sun April 18 2004 at 02:12 PM.]

GK.
04-18-2004, 03:06 PM
The speed is accurate, be sure. This is the source:
Rand McNally color illustrated guides, Word War II airplanes volume 2, enzo angelucci, paolo matricardi

Here is what is said about the Ki-100:

"This was the last combat plane that the japanese army put into the field in world war 2. in the few months the aircraft was operational, it proved to be one of the finest high altitude interceptors. but the kawasaki ki100 was not an original design. it was derived directly from the last models of the ki61 hien fighter, with only the engine changed. the plane was born as a compromise because there was insufficient time to design an all new plane, but it proved to be an excellent aircraft. kawasaki built 396 planes between february and august, 1945 and they all saw intense service, particularly against American bomber formations."

The discrepancy in speed is because the, 454mph @ 19,685 feet is the kawasaki ki-100II. It featured a mitsubishi ha-112-II Ru, 14-cylinder radial, air-cooled, 1,500 hp engine. It also had better aerodynamics. The engine also featured gas and water injection.

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GK.
04-18-2004, 03:12 PM
The production numbers seem very close to that of the yak3. There is no doubt we will see a ki-100 in this sim. sorry chris http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

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Giganoni
04-18-2004, 03:16 PM
Okay..GK...lets say the Ki-100 II could fly that fast, guess what, only a few were made and the never saw combat.

Korolov
04-18-2004, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GK.:
The speed is accurate, be sure. This is the source:
Rand McNally color illustrated guides, Word War II airplanes volume 2, enzo angelucci, paolo matricardi......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have that book, too. It's not very accurate. BTW, that number is also a typo. It's a good quick reference, but take the figures with a grain of salt. Every other figure I've ran into for the speed of the Ki-100-II says 367mph at altitude.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

faustnik
04-18-2004, 03:31 PM
GK,

That source is the only one you will find with that speed listed. The most accepted sources, Buschnell and Francillon list 590kph as top speed for Ki-100-II.

It was an excellent fighter but, don't expect the speed to be anywhere near what you listed.

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chris455
04-18-2004, 03:31 PM
[QUOTE] by GK:
"Lets compare specs for the Ki-100, a late war model of the tony. It looks to be pretty badass.
2 20mm
2 mgs
454mph max speed @ 19k feet"

................and later:

"The discrepancy in speed is because the, 454mph @ 19,685 feet is the kawasaki ki-100II."

Oh.
So you posted performance figures for The Ki-100 II,which by your own admission had a "mitsubishi ha-112-II Ru, 14-cylinder radial, air-cooled, 1,500 hp engine" with "gas and water injection" and of which only 3 prototypes were ever built, and made it seem like they pertained to all Ki-100s.

No wonder the rest of us were left scratching our heads.

Am I starting to see a pattern with this guy? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

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[This message was edited by chris455 on Sun April 18 2004 at 02:39 PM.]

faustnik
04-18-2004, 03:35 PM
GK is quoting his source correctly Chris (I have that book too). His source data is just different from any other data on the a/c.

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Korolov
04-18-2004, 03:36 PM
Also, another note - the detailed information written for the Ki-100 in that book states:

"The Ki-100's performance was not that much different from that of it's predecessor, but the cause of most of the Ki-61's difficulties had been removed by changing the engine."

Gee, seems like they actually meant 354 mph - lower than the accepted figures elsewhere for the speed of the Ki-100! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

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chris455
04-18-2004, 03:42 PM
He's talking about an entirely different version of tha aircraft, Faustnik.
Only 3 prototypes were made of the Ki-100 II. He tried to make it look like ALL Ki-100s had that performance. Typical GK.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
GK is quoting his source correctly Chris (I have that book too). His source data is just different from any other data on the a/c.

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_http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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GK.
04-18-2004, 07:09 PM
I made it clear that there was only 3 prototypes made of the ki-100II, deception is not my style.

I was reading about the ki-100 and came upon some very alarming findings! Apparently there are numerous aces that flew the ki-100 despite low production numbers. The kill counts of these aces GREATLY surpass those of american p47 aces and rival americas top scoring aces in other aircraft. Could these numbers indicate that the ki-100 actually saw MORE combat than the p47? Ill let you be the judge.

"Pilots of renown who flew the Ki-100 included Capt. Hidea Inayama (22 kills) who became the leader of the 111th, S/Maj Goro Miyamoto (26 kills) and Lt. Morikichi Kanae (32 kills) both of the 25th, and Capt. Akira Onozaki (28 kills) of the 59th.
"

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faustnik
04-18-2004, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GK.:
I was reading about the ki-100 and came upon some very alarming findings! Apparently there are numerous aces that flew the ki-100 despite low production numbers. The kill counts of these aces GREATLY surpass those of american p47 aces and rival americas top scoring aces in other aircraft. Could these numbers indicate that the ki-100 actually saw MORE combat than the p47? Ill let you be the judge.

"Pilots of renown who flew the Ki-100 included Capt. Hidea Inayama (22 kills) who became the leader of the 111th, S/Maj Goro Miyamoto (26 kills) and Lt. Morikichi Kanae (32 kills) both of the 25th, and Capt. Akira Onozaki (28 kills) of the 59th.
"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure all their kills were achieved while they were flying the Ki-100?

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chris455
04-18-2004, 08:44 PM
For once we agree, the barefaced lie seems to be your weapon of choice.

GK wrote:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GK.:
I made it clear that there was only 3 prototypes made of the ki-100II, deception is not my style.

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heywooood
04-18-2004, 09:01 PM
Chris - I love you bro'

Gk - your sig motto bugs me "Proud 'chute shooter"... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

I don't care 'bout you though...- I just don't get it.

chris455
04-18-2004, 09:06 PM
Heywood,
Thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Chris - I love you bro'

Gk - your sig motto bugs me "Proud 'chute shooter"... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

I don't care 'bout you though...- I just don't get it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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GK.
04-18-2004, 09:08 PM
chute shooters unite!

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heywooood
04-18-2004, 09:14 PM
"Pride goes before a fall"

You have some issues I think.

chris455
04-18-2004, 09:19 PM
Issues?
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GK.
04-18-2004, 09:21 PM
har har!

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chris455
04-18-2004, 09:37 PM
And BTW,
please don't think for a minute that I don't want the Ki-100 in the game, I do. I really do.

It takes an aweful lot to feed one of these monsters.

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Korolov
04-18-2004, 09:44 PM
Hey, at least the Ki-100 looks several times better than the Shiden, with a super climb rate to boot! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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GK.
04-18-2004, 09:45 PM
22 japanese aircraft by the highest scoring p47 ace, if you wanna call that an "aweful lot".

Id argue that Iwamoto was about 10 times as hungry, consuming a whopping 202 american planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

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Korolov
04-18-2004, 09:46 PM
Or somebody shot him in the stomach 8 times. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

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chris455
04-18-2004, 10:08 PM
Yeah, that's always the problem with Zeros and Ki's.
You shoot one down, 20 minutes later your hungry again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

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WUAF_Badsight
04-18-2004, 11:12 PM
ahh the Ki-100

the fastest climbing Japanese Fighter (?)

it was like shoe-horning the big BMW FW190 Radial into the little Emil

Ghastly but did the job ......... i thought the Ki-100 was supposed to have lost a little of the Ki-61's manoeverability ????

Giganoni
04-19-2004, 02:29 AM
Goshikisen was never the fastest climbing Japanese aircraft of the war. To my knowledge the fastest climbing aircraft was the Ki-44II Shoki..which could climb 16,405 ft in 4 mins, 17 secs.

Famous Shoki squadron was the Shinten (Sky-shadow) who often rammed B-29s.

Giganoni
04-19-2004, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
ahh the Ki-100

the fastest climbing Japanese Fighter (?)

it was like shoe-horning the big BMW FW190 Radial into the little Emil

Ghastly but did the job ......... i thought the Ki-100 was supposed to have lost a little of the Ki-61's manoeverability ????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the Goshikisen gained manoverability due to lower wing and power-loading figures according to www.wwiitech.net (http://www.wwiitech.net) It lost some speed though.

KIMURA
04-19-2004, 04:30 AM
GK, you should better prove your claims or what you claim. Specs of protoypes makes not that much sence, because 1st they are not factory line a/c, 2nd many prototypes were unarmed and lighter to be lighter than factory made a/c.

Fact is that no Ki-100 exceeted over 600kph in level flight, and btw its' aerodynamics was bader than that of the Ki-61 not better.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Then a further point: Tetsuzo Iwamoto was credited with "around" 80 kills after neweast researches. Nishizawa and Iwamoto were known as agressive pilots, but both tended to hard over claiming. Nishizawas 200 were also reduced to 87 kills.

Kimura

KIMURA
04-19-2004, 04:35 AM
Giganoni is right, neither the Ki84, Ki-100 nor another 2000HP monster was the fastest climber. It was the little Ki-44 Shoki which outclassed anything in PTO in that respect.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kimura

Ruy Horta
04-19-2004, 12:04 PM
Here's some figures I've taken from several Bunrindo issues (apart from the Shoki wingloading - Francillon).

Ki 100 I (174.8kg/m2)

speed in kph @ alt. meter

500/1000
520/2000
539/3000
543/3210
536/4000 (2nd gear supercharger?)
551/5000
575/6000
578/6140 (top speed)
568/7000
556/8000
542/9000
527/10000

time to height in min./meter

1000/1'12"
2000/2'13"
3000/3'08"
4000/4'29"
5000/6'00"
6000/7'26"
7000/8'56"
8000/10'47"
10000/20'00"

Ki 100 II (183.5kg/m2)

speed in kph @ alt. meter

500/1000
560/5000
570/6000
585/8000
565/10000

time to height in min./meter

5000/6'40"
8000/11'30"
10000/18'00"

The Ki 100 II would be at a disadvantage compared to the Ki 100 I below 6000m, only above that altitude will its performance pick up. A real high altitude fighter, not an ideal one for the AEP engine and MP gameplay.

Now compare these figures with two other types, genuine interceptors.

J2M2 (164.4kg/m2)
596/5450
5000/4'30"

J2M3 (171.3kg/m2)
596/5450
6000/5'38"

Ki 44 II Koh (184kg/m2)
605/5200
5000/4'15"

Ki 44 II Otsu (184kg/m2)
605/5200
5000/4'26"

Below 6000m these birds are top dog, and it even appears that their wingloading isn't that bad compared to the Ki 100.

Ruy Horta

EDIT

Needless to say the Shoki is personal favorite of mine. I hope that we'll see a couple of sub-types of this otherwise neglected type. Also from a piloting pov she'll proof somewhat more of a challenge compared to other Japanese types (she'll be easy enough to handle for those who habitually fly for the Luftwaffe).

How to mix my time between Wildcats, Corsairs on the one side and Hayabusas and Shokis on the other...and I haven't even thought about the Hawk 75, Mod.339 and P-40B/C/E and P-400!

Now I am getting ahead of myself..since there are also all these beautiful Torpedo bombers.

That settles it...I love the PTO!

[This message was edited by rhorta on Mon April 19 2004 at 11:20 AM.]