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S0Mi_xD
06-18-2017, 04:51 PM
Hey ppl,

recently i watched some martial art vidoes and i also found some teaching videos about parring.

Basicly parry is a technic to defend yourself, interrupt the enemy and open him up for attacks.
In a parry situation, you normaly can't block, only dodge - and this remindes me of something in For Honor, it's LBs 50/50.

Also i want to combine an idea from another person about GB after a Parry.
Here it comes:
----------------------------------------------

1. Parry input would be still the same.
Parrieng will cost you stamina of a Heavy attack!
(Parry while OOS will reset our regeneration to 0 - means if you parry while OOS instead of blocking, you will stay longer OOS)

2. If you parry an enemy....

A. He will be open for attacks
B. He can't block or parry, but he can dodge it - only backward ! (like in a real parry situation)

3. Now about Rewards.

+ Stamina drain will be still the same on parry
+ Light Parry can give a chance for a Heavy OR a safe Light (not dodgeable)
+ Heavy Parry can give you a chance for a light
+ Also you can use a FAST GB like centurion after a parry (means only the throw from the GB, so you can't get safe dmg just from a Parry-GB
(GB is safe if the enemy dodges, this makes the parry reward a 50/50)

4. Attack speed after parry

> Currently if you parry and attack with a light, it will follow up with a super fast light attack - this light attack would be the safe light after Parrying a Light attack.
> All Heavies after a Light-Parry would be 600ms (maybe 700ms) and feinting them would be disabled!
> All Lights after Heavy-Parry would be 500ms

------------------------------------------------
Now you propably think, "this guy is stupid, how should this work? people could just roll away from every parry".

1. Tech Roll

It would be a safe way do evade the 50/50 of a parry, BUT it would cost you the last stamina -> means if you get Parried, you lose a ton of stamina because of the Parry, and if you dodge away, you lose the rest - so getting out of the Parry 50/50 on a safe way would bear the risk to get OOS.

-----------------------------------------------
My résumé:

1. Parry would give you a 50/50 (except on a light parry, this would be a safe light attack)
2. Enemy can't block or parry only dodge (like LB 50/50) BUT only dodge backwards.
3. If the enemy tries to dodge, you can instead of attacking, try catch him with a fast thow/GB
4. Or he exhaust himself by rolling but therefor is safe from any direct punish.

So what are you thinking ?

S0Mi_xD
06-18-2017, 11:01 PM
Also, i forgot to mention that maybe some specific moves will need an adjustment.
Warlord, Centurion, LB, Shinobi do have special parry moves.

Warlord and Centurion, both could stay like they are (shinob aswell)

About LB, I am not sure, therefor i can't say much, because i don't play him.

ELDRIX_
06-19-2017, 12:19 AM
these are some really good ideas although there are some points i don't really uderstand

"2. If you parry an enemy....
B. He can't block or parry, but he can dodge it - only backward ! (like in a real parry situation)"

"Light Parry can give a chance for a Heavy OR a safe Light (not dodgeable)"=> he can't block and parry also?

"> All Heavies after a Light-Parry would be 600ms (maybe 700ms) and feinting them would be disabled!"

you mean bc char like raider don't get a confirmed top heavy from a top light parry or why
would you change the speed?

S0Mi_xD
06-19-2017, 12:39 AM
these are some really good ideas although there are some points i don't really uderstand

"2. If you parry an enemy....
B. He can't block or parry, but he can dodge it - only backward ! (like in a real parry situation)"

"Light Parry can give a chance for a Heavy OR a safe Light (not dodgeable)"=> he can't block and parry also?

"> All Heavies after a Light-Parry would be 600ms (maybe 700ms) and feinting them would be disabled!"

you mean bc char like raider don't get a confirmed top heavy from a top light parry or why
would you change the speed?

Thanks you, for the feedback and question ^^

1. The only safe dmg would be a Light attack after a Light parry. This would be the only attack that is not dodgeable after a parry.

2. I would change the speed, to make it abit harder to react to it, so it wouldn't be that easy to evade the potential 50/50 from the parry.

Also, i had a second variant of this idea:
The difference there was, that you can dodge in any direction, but in this case i am not sure if Heros with dodge abilities like assassin (deflect and swift attack) and Conqu, valk, and kensei would have an greater advantage against those parries...

------------

It isn't easy to come up with such an change, by only playing it through in your mind.
The rework idea would need some test optimize it, thats also a reason why i want some feedback and discussion about it :)

ELDRIX_
06-19-2017, 12:46 AM
Thanks you, for the feedback and question ^^

1. The only safe dmg would be a Light attack after a Light parry. This would be the only attack that is not dodgeable after a parry.

2. I would change the speed, to make it abit harder to react to it, so it wouldn't be that easy to evade the potential 50/50 from the parry.

Also, i had a second variant of this idea:
The difference there was, that you can dodge in any direction, but in this case i am not sure if Heros with dodge abilities like assassin (deflect and swift attack) and Conqu, valk, and kensei would have an greater advantage against those parries...

------------

It isn't easy to come up with such an change, by only playing it through in your mind.
The rework idea would need some test optimize it, thats also a reason why i want some feedback and discussion about it :)

still these are some pretty decent ideas hope someone from ubi will see this

S0Mi_xD
06-20-2017, 01:59 PM
still these are some pretty decent ideas hope someone from ubi will see this

me to ^^

PDXGorechild
06-20-2017, 05:25 PM
I like these ideas. The only being able to dodge backward idea might be a good alternative as it still makes being parried punishing, but doesn't guarantee your opponent will be able to capitalise on it with a free heavy hit, which I think is too much.

Alternatively: I think Parry should have the window reduced somewhat. Currently I think a move is parry-able after the initiation of the first 25% of the attack, reducing it after around 50% will make it a bit more difficult to pull off without making the move redundant. This would justify allowing a guaranteed heavy after a light parry - which would be markedly more difficult to pull off. A heavy Parry would only allow a guaranteed light. Either parry into a wall would obviously allow a guaranteed heavy.

I think this in combination with a bit of chip damage and GB tweaking might solve the turtle meta.

S0Mi_xD
06-21-2017, 11:54 PM
The problem about my idea is, that it could maybe be to easy to react to it and making the 50/50 not working.
The player who do the parry shouldn't be able to reacte on the parried ones action, and vice versa, so both need to gamble.

Your alternative idea would be also a solid solution.
I agree with you, that a guearanteed heavy with the current parry isn't justified.

Parry, chip dmg, and some tweaks to GB,stamina.(maybe feint, depending on how the def meta patch will look like - because currently i think feint works fine)
Those points are the most importend ones, IMO.

Knight_Raime
06-22-2017, 12:02 AM
I'm kind of confused entirely. It sounds like you're saying a light parry could give you an undodgable light or heavy.
and a heavy can give you a light. but it's dodgable?
why would I parry if I can't get any confirmable damage.

also letting people dodge out of any parry consistently would basically just make assassins more powerful because they could turn your punish into a punish of your own. Which is why hurricane blast is nearly obsolete on orochi at the moment.

S0Mi_xD
06-22-2017, 12:21 AM
I'm kind of confused entirely. It sounds like you're saying a light parry could give you an undodgable light or heavy.
and a heavy can give you a light. but it's dodgable?
why would I parry if I can't get any confirmable damage.

also letting people dodge out of any parry consistently would basically just make assassins more powerful because they could turn your punish into a punish of your own. Which is why hurricane blast is nearly obsolete on orochi at the moment.

Light parry would give a guaranteed light attack (the same one like currently if you parry any attack an follow with a ligh attack, it is super fast), the heavy wouldn't be guaranteed, but you would become a chance for a 50/50, so you can throw a heavy an hope the enemy does not dodge, or if you predict that he would dodge, you can GB instead.
Here i suggested to make it a quick throw (like centurions) and not actually an full GB (i thought this would be to much punishing.

Yeah, thats the current problem with the mindset of many people, that a parry should give great guearanteed dmg.
You already do a good stamina dmg, defend yourself by interrupting your enemies flow. And for such a easy mechaninc in For Honor, you should be able to punish your enemy really hard, without him being able to react to it?

And a Heavy parry would give the 50/50 form ,like the light parry into heavy, but just with a light attack.

I wouldn't be easy at all, he window for the dodge should be really small, because Parrieng is a fast process/turn of the situation.
Also, by only making it dodgable backwards, assassins, Conqs, Valks and Kensei wouldn't have any advantage through their dodge blocks/counters.
The only one i am not sure about is Valk, because when she dodges back she can go into her stance....

UbiNoty
06-22-2017, 01:11 AM
Hey ppl,

recently i watched some martial art vidoes and i also found some teaching videos about parring.

Basicly parry is a technic to defend yourself, interrupt the enemy and open him up for attacks.
In a parry situation, you normaly can't block, only dodge - and this remindes me of something in For Honor, it's LBs 50/50.

Also i want to combine an idea from another person about GB after a Parry.
Here it comes:
----------------------------------------------

1. Parry input would be still the same.
Parrieng will cost you stamina of a Heavy attack!
(Parry while OOS will reset our regeneration to 0 - means if you parry while OOS instead of blocking, you will stay longer OOS)

2. If you parry an enemy....

A. He will be open for attacks
B. He can't block or parry, but he can dodge it - only backward ! (like in a real parry situation)

3. Now about Rewards.

+ Stamina drain will be still the same on parry
+ Light Parry can give a chance for a Heavy OR a safe Light (not dodgeable)
+ Heavy Parry can give you a chance for a light
+ Also you can use a FAST GB like centurion after a parry (means only the throw from the GB, so you can't get safe dmg just from a Parry-GB
(GB is safe if the enemy dodges, this makes the parry reward a 50/50)

4. Attack speed after parry

> Currently if you parry and attack with a light, it will follow up with a super fast light attack - this light attack would be the safe light after Parrying a Light attack.
> All Heavies after a Light-Parry would be 600ms (maybe 700ms) and feinting them would be disabled!
> All Lights after Heavy-Parry would be 500ms

------------------------------------------------
Now you propably think, "this guy is stupid, how should this work? people could just roll away from every parry".

1. Tech Roll

It would be a safe way do evade the 50/50 of a parry, BUT it would cost you the last stamina -> means if you get Parried, you lose a ton of stamina because of the Parry, and if you dodge away, you lose the rest - so getting out of the Parry 50/50 on a safe way would bear the risk to get OOS.

-----------------------------------------------
My résumé:

1. Parry would give you a 50/50 (except on a light parry, this would be a safe light attack)
2. Enemy can't block or parry only dodge (like LB 50/50) BUT only dodge backwards.
3. If the enemy tries to dodge, you can instead of attacking, try catch him with a fast thow/GB
4. Or he exhaust himself by rolling but therefor is safe from any direct punish.

So what are you thinking ?

I really think your idea of the tech dodge would be really interesting as a mechanic - mind if I bring up your idea to the devs? :)

KokuRou142
06-22-2017, 02:01 AM
If parrying consumed Stamina then Nobushi would be completely useless. Not only does Hidden Stance drain a ton of stamina already, but to top off with a stamina drain while Parrying? No. I like the idea for it, but no.

Knight_Raime
06-22-2017, 04:35 AM
So. Light parry gives a light attack.
Heavy parry nothing is confirmed.
If you parry and press gb you get cents quick throw.

I don't see how they could cancel side dodges after a parry if you let dodging happen.

The quick throw would be a problem because certain people have parry follow ups.

I don't understand the tech dodge. Is it just double dash backwords?

I'm not a fan of this idea. No one would parry heavies. People would always go for the light off of a light parry unless a wall is near by for splatting.

It costing more Stam is a good idea. But the amount you perposed seems over kill on Stam intensive heros. Not to mention we've got Stam damage attacks. Also removing the ability to feint is bad because it actually gives less options.

If I parried and was able to feint the non guaranteed heavy I could potentially get more out of it if they fall for it compared to if I just let it fly and they dodge it.

I personally don't believe we need to revamp the parrying or add new options. Just remove guaranteed GB on parries and make parries cost more stamina.

Also the idea of parrying in OOS actually making you worse off is horrible. It would mean someone going OOS would be screwed. Especially against heros who have Stam damage attacks.

OOS needs to be more punishing. This is not the way to achieve that.

My.Insanity
06-22-2017, 07:29 AM
I think this change would be nice ... ofc you need to change Chip Dmg overall to make this kind of parry a good thing. Its useless to parry attacks if they deal nearly no dmg on block.

But i dont think that parry should cost stamina.. this would lead into an endless loop of Raiders spamming unblockables.

Also my question is if you can only use a "doge back" after you get parried.. can Heros like Valk / Orochi / Nobushi ... still use attacks like stormrushi / shieldbash / vipers retreat?

Draghmar
06-22-2017, 09:08 AM
Those are actually really great ideas. My only concern is guessing. I mean I wouldn't mind if there was some small window for reaction but still I want use my skill while fighting and not guessing. This way if my reflex is not enough I know I can improve myself or at least I'd know that's my limit and not some cheap technical restriction.

S0Mi_xD
06-22-2017, 12:21 PM
I really think your idea of the tech dodge would be really interesting as a mechanic - mind if I bring up your idea to the devs? :)
Not at all ^^
It would be a pleasure :D


If parrying consumed Stamina then Nobushi would be completely useless. Not only does Hidden Stance drain a ton of stamina already, but to top off with a stamina drain while Parrying? No. I like the idea for it, but no.
Nobushi isn't the only class with a hard stamina management, also hidden stance is a defensive tool aswell, so it depends on the situation, Parry or hidden stance.
Maybe Hidden stance needs some tweaks as well.

The limitation by stamnina consumption, i think it is needed.
Because currently you can go for a parry every time you want it, without even thinking about the situation.


So. Light parry gives a light attack.
Heavy parry nothing is confirmed.
If you parry and press gb you get cents quick throw.

I don't see how they could cancel side dodges after a parry if you let dodging happen.

The quick throw would be a problem because certain people have parry follow ups.

I don't understand the tech dodge. Is it just double dash backwords?

I'm not a fan of this idea. No one would parry heavies. People would always go for the light off of a light parry unless a wall is near by for splatting.

It costing more Stam is a good idea. But the amount you perposed seems over kill on Stam intensive heros. Not to mention we've got Stam damage attacks. Also removing the ability to feint is bad because it actually gives less options.

If I parried and was able to feint the non guaranteed heavy I could potentially get more out of it if they fall for it compared to if I just let it fly and they dodge it.

I personally don't believe we need to revamp the parrying or add new options. Just remove guaranteed GB on parries and make parries cost more stamina.

Also the idea of parrying in OOS actually making you worse off is horrible. It would mean someone going OOS would be screwed. Especially against heros who have Stam damage attacks.

OOS needs to be more punishing. This is not the way to achieve that.

Those ideas are not perfect, it isn't that simple to play through ever situation. It can happen that i forget some points etc. thats why i ask others to think about it - and it helps :).
Also it is possible to just take some parts of this idea, as an example, like UbiNoty finds the tech dodge interessting.

1. About the dodge, everythink is possible by programming, thats not the point, they limited the actions after a shovel to only dodge, so they can limit it to just dodging backwards.
Thats not a problem.

2. Yes, about the follow ups of some heroes, i already mentioned, that i don't calculated that in.

3. About the tech dodge, it is just a simple back dodge, if you use the dodge command without a side input, it will allways be a dodge backwards.

4. And somehow this is the idea behind this - limiting the parries attempts like heavies, and instead block them or dodge, or for assassins, deflect .... and so on.
I am not sure, if my idea is much to limiting or not - this would need tests, and i can't do it, only Ubi :D

5. Me to, i think such tools need stamina consumption - how much stamina cost would be optimal, i don't know it ^^

6. I considert the potental heavy after parry non-feintable, to limit the punishment. And this count's only for a heavy after light parry (a fast heavy)
If you throw a heavy after a heavy parry it would be still feintable, but it would have the it's normal speed.

7. This is the only point where i disagree with you, about OOS parry.
This needs a good drawback - parring when OOS currenty, is simple ridiculous - parry 2 attacks, your enemy will be OOS and you are full stamina again - OOS needs to be punishing, and currently is isn't.
Parry has nothing to do with Stamina dmg attacks, because those attacks are unparriable (like shoulderbash etc.) so this doesn't play any role in here. It would change nothing about stamina drain attacks.
You can dodge and block, this is enought to stay quite safe while OOS - depending on your and your enemies skill.
You still can Parry your enemy, until his is OOS - but then you both will be regenerated at the same time.


I think this change would be nice ... ofc you need to change Chip Dmg overall to make this kind of parry a good thing. Its useless to parry attacks if they deal nearly no dmg on block.

But i dont think that parry should cost stamina.. this would lead into an endless loop of Raiders spamming unblockables.

Also my question is if you can only use a "doge back" after you get parried.. can Heros like Valk / Orochi / Nobushi ... still use attacks like stormrushi / shieldbash / vipers retreat?

1. Chip dmg, of course - but this already in work and i already mentioned it many previous def meta changes i did in the past ^^.

2. About raider, you don't need to parry it, dodging in its direction is much safer, with any class. I stopped parring it and instead i go for dodges. Works for me with any class i play.
And thats the point of this change - it takes away the omni-tool property of parry, so you can't simply rely every time on parries, and let you think about using other defensive tools while OOS. Or in general.

3. Good question - About Stormrush - this would not work. because it is not a dodge, but an attack.
About Valk, shield stance - ... thats a problem i already thought about, but it shouldn't be that much of a problem, because she could only get a small shield tackel (not the knockdown, but only the small stun - she wouldn't get anything from it, except abit stamina dmg.
Also i think if the recovery would be fast enought it would could be dodged if the attack after a parry is dodged this way.
About Vipers retreat - i don't know :D

Maybe just limiting the tech dodge, only dodge, so that other action are not possible in this moment.


Those are actually really great ideas. My only concern is guessing. I mean I wouldn't mind if there was some small window for reaction but still I want use my skill while fighting and not guessing. This way if my reflex is not enough I know I can improve myself or at least I'd know that's my limit and not some cheap technical restriction.

I do understand your concern - this idea is acutally inspired by parring in reality.
The skill part in this should actually be the parry itself and the ability to evade the punishment.
But guessing/predicting is a part of fighting as well, and parring is a fast process, where you need to guess and reacte.

Draghmar
06-22-2017, 12:31 PM
I do understand your concern - this idea is acutally inspired by parring in reality.
The skill part in this should actually be the parry itself and the ability to evade the punishment.
But guessing/predicting is a part of fighting as well, and parring is a fast process, where you need to guess and reacte.
I agree but what I meant is I want to have option to react to the parry punishment and not guess what will happen next. I don't mind free attack as a reward for parrying light attack for example. But when comes to 50/50 I'd rather like to use my skill instead of guess. That's it. LB shove gives him two moves he can use: GB or light attack. I've seen on YT that you actually can react to them even though you don't know which one LB will choose. But the window is so small that at most cases I couldn't do that and yet I know it's my fault and not design.

S0Mi_xD
06-22-2017, 12:38 PM
I agree but what I meant is I want to have option to react to the parry punishment and not guess what will happen next. I don't mind free attack as a reward for parrying light attack for example. But when comes to 50/50 I'd rather like to use my skill instead of guess. That's it. LB shove gives him two moves he can use: GB or light attack. I've seen on YT that you actually can react to them even though you don't know which one LB will choose. But the window is so small that at most cases I couldn't do that and yet I know it's my fault and not design.

Ah ok ^^
For this acutall i meant the small reaction window to dodge it.
Like i said it would be similar to LB shovel 50/50.
And not like Warden, because a warden can react to the action of the enemy.

For the one how Parries, it is more guessing.
And for the one how is parried, it is do i guess or try to react.

Felheric
06-22-2017, 04:07 PM
I read today around 3 topics about parry nerf suggestions and I really start worry about future of this game.
Why people think parry is the bigest problem. - I can open guy who is trying to parry alot, however I cant do **** to guy who is just blocking light attacks than throwing feint into gb and do pretty much safe stuff until you are bored so he gets you in your parry attemp with gb "Because you want to play active and do dmg."

If player reads that you are trying to parry lights alot he can let heavy go because he know you are trying to parry light and guess what? it will clip you and you take full heavy and also your stamina is dmged cuz startup of heavy. He can also feint into gb, or he can feint heavy into light from other direction which for now is not rewarding and will be most likely just blocked.

Parry is not easy unless you go only for heavys, it opens you up, its reaction,skill based mechanic and should be left alone.

My suggestion is aside from chip dmg on block both for heavys and lights..-
Is to not trigger block stop from lights into heavys combos (simmilar to what you have when in revenge + adjust the speed of heavys in that combo for certain characters so ppl would not have easy time just reaction dodging with whiff heavy punish). For sure not light light combo - because that would made certain characters broken.

So if you passive *** who is just blocking not doing stuff you will get yourself into mixup where you need to guess is he gonna let the heavy rip so I will just block and take chip dmg or I am parrying it , if so he might feint it into gb..etc

I know its guessing but how else would you reward reactive agressive playstyle?
So now you have rewards even when you attack.
Eg.
They parry lights oki,- condition them with feints and raw heavys to not parry lights.
You are not parrying lights just heavys ok - you going into mixup from light-heavys
You are just blocking and playing safe- ok - you losing health to chip dmg.

Whats scary is you people just want raw huge nerfs, eg. parry light you get light. with some mixup. What about deflects tho? when they would become superior to parry and only some characters have them - it would cause massive imbalance and people would moan until deflects are nerfed also to dmg of light?

People will just massive quit because it would take away the most fun and render it into noob friendly hack and slash random guess? JUST NO PLS

Capoupacap
06-22-2017, 04:39 PM
Would impact console play in a really bad way !!! :(

Parrying on console is much more (MUCH more) difficult than PC. Blocking is still demanding full focus and block on light while possible are like exceptional move! (reward with 3 WAW, 10 GG, lot of respect etc)

S0Mi_xD
06-22-2017, 06:24 PM
I read today around 3 topics about parry nerf suggestions and I really start worry about future of this game.
Why people think parry is the bigest problem. - I can open guy who is trying to parry alot, however I cant do **** to guy who is just blocking light attacks than throwing feint into gb and do pretty much safe stuff until you are bored so he gets you in your parry attemp with gb "Because you want to play active and do dmg."

If player reads that you are trying to parry lights alot he can let heavy go because he know you are trying to parry light and guess what? it will clip you and you take full heavy and also your stamina is dmged cuz startup of heavy. He can also feint into gb, or he can feint heavy into light from other direction which for now is not rewarding and will be most likely just blocked.

Parry is not easy unless you go only for heavys, it opens you up, its reaction,skill based mechanic and should be left alone.

My suggestion is aside from chip dmg on block both for heavys and lights..-
Is to not trigger block stop from lights into heavys combos (simmilar to what you have when in revenge + adjust the speed of heavys in that combo for certain characters so ppl would not have easy time just reaction dodging with whiff heavy punish). For sure not light light combo - because that would made certain characters broken.

So if you passive *** who is just blocking not doing stuff you will get yourself into mixup where you need to guess is he gonna let the heavy rip so I will just block and take chip dmg or I am parrying it , if so he might feint it into gb..etc

I know its guessing but how else would you reward reactive agressive playstyle?
So now you have rewards even when you attack.
Eg.
They parry lights oki,- condition them with feints and raw heavys to not parry lights.
You are not parrying lights just heavys ok - you going into mixup from light-heavys
You are just blocking and playing safe- ok - you losing health to chip dmg.

Whats scary is you people just want raw huge nerfs, eg. parry light you get light. with some mixup. What about deflects tho? when they would become superior to parry and only some characters have them - it would cause massive imbalance and people would moan until deflects are nerfed also to dmg of light?

People will just massive quit because it would take away the most fun and render it into noob friendly hack and slash random guess? JUST NO PLS

At first, don't get it wrong - it's not like i say "PARRY IS THE ONLY CAUSE, MAKE IT MORE NOOB FRIENDLY"
Thats not the point: Take a look here http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1676777-Defensive-META-This-could-be-a-very-good-solution!
This was my latest def meta thread, there i stated the most important things that need a change (IMO) i also explained why.

I play Berserker main (PS4), i know all problems with the def meta very well, and yes i can open up (most) people, but still i get blocked, or get even more parried.
And what you suggested here, i already suggested long ago (take a look into the thread).

The point of this parry idea thread is,
A: To show my ideas (maybe something out of this could be interessting)
B: To provide food for thoughts
C: To discuss about it

I do suggest and give feedback, and do not complain about it because it is so unfair and can't win because of it.
I can parry, very good, i can deflect and and and i use it to.
But evey idiot can see, that there is a huge imbalance in defensive and offensive.


Would impact console play in a really bad way !!! :(

Parrying on console is much more (MUCH more) difficult than PC. Blocking is still demanding full focus and block on light while possible are like exceptional move! (reward with 3 WAW, 10 GG, lot of respect etc)

From my personal experience i need to disagree, that parry so much hardern on console, sure it is easier on PC, but on console it's pretty easy aswell. The only difference is, that it is easier to parry lights on PC.

Like i said about, it's not like i only see parry as an problem ^^ just take a look in the link i posted.

Knight_Raime
06-22-2017, 07:27 PM
Not at all ^^
It would be a pleasure :D


Nobushi isn't the only class with a hard stamina management, also hidden stance is a defensive tool aswell, so it depends on the situation, Parry or hidden stance.
Maybe Hidden stance needs some tweaks as well.

The limitation by stamnina consumption, i think it is needed.
Because currently you can go for a parry every time you want it, without even thinking about the situation.



Those ideas are not perfect, it isn't that simple to play through ever situation. It can happen that i forget some points etc. thats why i ask others to think about it - and it helps :).
Also it is possible to just take some parts of this idea, as an example, like UbiNoty finds the tech dodge interessting.

1. About the dodge, everythink is possible by programming, thats not the point, they limited the actions after a shovel to only dodge, so they can limit it to just dodging backwards.
Thats not a problem.

2. Yes, about the follow ups of some heroes, i already mentioned, that i don't calculated that in.

3. About the tech dodge, it is just a simple back dodge, if you use the dodge command without a side input, it will allways be a dodge backwards.

4. And somehow this is the idea behind this - limiting the parries attempts like heavies, and instead block them or dodge, or for assassins, deflect .... and so on.
I am not sure, if my idea is much to limiting or not - this would need tests, and i can't do it, only Ubi :D

5. Me to, i think such tools need stamina consumption - how much stamina cost would be optimal, i don't know it ^^

6. I considert the potental heavy after parry non-feintable, to limit the punishment. And this count's only for a heavy after light parry (a fast heavy)
If you throw a heavy after a heavy parry it would be still feintable, but it would have the it's normal speed.

7. This is the only point where i disagree with you, about OOS parry.
This needs a good drawback - parring when OOS currenty, is simple ridiculous - parry 2 attacks, your enemy will be OOS and you are full stamina again - OOS needs to be punishing, and currently is isn't.
Parry has nothing to do with Stamina dmg attacks, because those attacks are unparriable (like shoulderbash etc.) so this doesn't play any role in here. It would change nothing about stamina drain attacks.
You can dodge and block, this is enought to stay quite safe while OOS - depending on your and your enemies skill.
You still can Parry your enemy, until his is OOS - but then you both will be regenerated at the same time.



1. Chip dmg, of course - but this already in work and i already mentioned it many previous def meta changes i did in the past ^^.

2. About raider, you don't need to parry it, dodging in its direction is much safer, with any class. I stopped parring it and instead i go for dodges. Works for me with any class i play.
And thats the point of this change - it takes away the omni-tool property of parry, so you can't simply rely every time on parries, and let you think about using other defensive tools while OOS. Or in general.

3. Good question - About Stormrush - this would not work. because it is not a dodge, but an attack.
About Valk, shield stance - ... thats a problem i already thought about, but it shouldn't be that much of a problem, because she could only get a small shield tackel (not the knockdown, but only the small stun - she wouldn't get anything from it, except abit stamina dmg.
Also i think if the recovery would be fast enought it would could be dodged if the attack after a parry is dodged this way.
About Vipers retreat - i don't know :D

Maybe just limiting the tech dodge, only dodge, so that other action are not possible in this moment.



I do understand your concern - this idea is acutally inspired by parring in reality.
The skill part in this should actually be the parry itself and the ability to evade the punishment.
But guessing/predicting is a part of fighting as well, and parring is a fast process, where you need to guess and reacte.

1) You're not understanding the thought process of competitive/play to win people. If light parrying only gives a light attack people will only go for that since it's guarenteed. the heavy would never be used if you can't feint it. and GB after would only be used situationally. You're not giving a 50 50 here.

2)Shove removes your guard. That is because you're in a recovery state. I don't think it's possible to add this onto a parry. And even if it was possible I don't think you can physcially program it so only one dodge is available. Not to mention the experience is jaring to say "yes you can technically dodge here. but not that way." I feel like you're just throwing that up as a poorly worked solution because you want to keep the idea alive that you have. despite it being flawed.

3) So you're telling me it's the exact same back dodge as now. just during a parry? But you already said you can just back dodge normally after the parry. how can it be both the normal dodge and the tech dodge? Maybe you were referring to the same thing and just the way you chose to word yourself ended up making it sound like you have the normal dodge and the "tech dodge."

4) You don't need testers in order to understand the foundation of play that already exists. People will not use unsafe moves unless they know the person will not be able to react to it due to their opponents lack of knowledge or reflexes. Meaning If I can't feint my heavy after a parry on a person i'm never going to use the heavy. If they were forced to block the hit and they couldn't parry or dodge it the chip damage might be worth it in some cases. But overall being allow to feint it gives players the ability to mess with their opponent which is valuable.

5)So you CAN feint the heavy. just only if you've parried a heavy. That's bad. Real bad. Currently most of the playerbase can only some what reliably parry a heavy. And due to higher levels doing the feint bait game mostly parrying failed parry attempts you're already not changing how things are. Secondly how on earth is removing feinting after a light parry "limiting punishment?" I can go for guarenteed light damage off a light parry. Or I can feint to attempt to get more out of the situation. But nothing is guarenteed because I feinted. I'm really not following your logic.

6) Okay. no. You don't understand anything. stamina damage attacks are absolutely playing a role in your idea since your idea involves stamina to begin with. You openly acknowledge some heros are more stamina heavy. So why exactly do you not see this? Lets look at the centurion real quick. he's got a few seperate moves that drain your stamina. If you were not allowed to parry me (which is basically the only way to stop the onslaught of a cent when you're OOS) I could just randomly throw in my stamina damage attacks and basically keep you OOS till i've gotten enough guarenteed damage to kill you or chipped you to death with chip damage.

Basically if it's that hard for you to understand let me make it simpler. Any hero who has a bash attack that drains stamina will instantly be 2 pegs above any hero without one because You won't be able to properly defend yourself without parrying. Dodging everything isn't the answer because they will just GB you mid dodge. and you can't block everything because you'll be chipped to death. OOS should be bad. Not a death sentence. I preposed long ago that when you are OOS the parry time would be different as your attacks are slower. This already exists in the game and we just need to change the timing. This would make parrying harder in OOS. but not impossible. OOS would also make dodging less effective by reducing the I frames and making them cover less distance. (not on heros who have short dodges already.) And finally I was thinking of allowing chip damage on lights. But only while OOS.


I applaud your effort to come up with a solution. However I don't believe it's a good or well thought out solution. The main problems with parrying are:
1)barely costs the parry person anything.
2) gives essentially a free heavy.

all they have to do for # 1 is increase stam cost of parrying someone. and for #2 all they need to do is make it so GB's are not guarenteed off of any parry.
That solves parry itself. But not the defensive meta. The defensive meta is a problem due to blocking being stronger than attacking. This is because chip is negligable. and combos are not present. And to a lesser extent several heros don't have a lot of good moves. along side OOS not being punishing enough. I already touched on how to fix OOS so I won't reiterate.
Chip damage needs to be bumped up slightly on heavies. And since we removed GB's from parrying (at least on heavy attacks being parried) all we need to do is get heavies in more often. How do we accomplish this? by letting combos happen wether they start with a light or not if it's blocked.

We can also increase the viability of each hero by letting everyone soft feint a light into the zone attack. and letting a heavy on each hero be abe to be soft feinted into a GB. each hero would only be able to do this from one direction though. Meaning there would still be some predictability. beyond that each hero would need individual changes to boost them up.

The only idea I liked from your list was the quick throw addition to everyone. I thing that can be people's follow up after a parry. barring people who already have a parry follow up. it wouldn't be techable of course. but since it's only a throw it won't really matter unless a surface is near by for splatting. which is fine.