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View Full Version : ubisoft , please take away lawbringer blockshove



Oupyz
06-18-2017, 12:10 AM
hello ,

after your normalized guardstance switch to 100ms , lawbringer are abusing blockshove like it's wasn't intended , please delete the mechanic or stop giving a guarantee light after

it's a broken 50/50

thank you

UbiNoty
06-18-2017, 12:12 AM
Will bring it up with team and have them look into it further!

The_B0G_
06-18-2017, 12:23 AM
Please ubisoft, my light spam no longer works on lawbringer, please nerf him so I can light spam him to death again.

EnjoyTheRandoms
06-18-2017, 12:27 AM
pk buff, when?

Hormly
06-18-2017, 12:36 AM
cant swing on LBs cause they just block shove... so I headbutt them to death.

and they get furious, but what else can I do

MasterChiefPON
06-18-2017, 12:52 AM
There are some guys abusing it like crazy, they don't do anything and they shove from every block.

The_B0G_
06-18-2017, 12:55 AM
I wouldn't mind losing the gaurenteed light after shove, I don't abuse it so it wouldn't really affect my play style at all.

MasterChiefPON
06-18-2017, 01:04 AM
I wouldn't mind losing the gaurenteed light after shove, I don't abuse it so it wouldn't really affect my play style at all.

It was abusable before but now it's worse. They could do that or they could take away block after shove because Lawbringer can stop anything with that. Remember the Kensei buff of uninterruptable helm splitter and swift strike, he can just turtle and if you try those he stops them with shove.

The_B0G_
06-18-2017, 01:14 AM
It was abusable before but now it's worse. They could do that or they could take away block after shove because Lawbringer can stop anything with that. Remember the Kensei buff of uninterruptable helm splitter and swift strike, he can just turtle and if you try those he stops them with shove.

I think shove needs to stay, for PC it's probably worse but on console it can be hard to deal with light spammers, myself I can only block one of every 3 usually, unless they never switch up their combo. Even with shove as it is I sometimes have to roll just to get away from light spammers. Mind you I haven't played since guard stance update.

Dizzy4213
06-18-2017, 01:18 AM
If the Shove gets removed then they need to give LB some major buffs to compensate.


Please ubisoft, my light spam no longer works on lawbringer, please nerf him so I can light spam him to death again.

Hit the nail on the head.

MasterChiefPON
06-18-2017, 01:19 AM
I think shove needs to stay, for PC it's probably worse but on console it can be hard to deal with light spammers, myself I can only block one of every 3 usually, unless they never switch up their combo. Even with shove as it is I sometimes have to roll just to get away from light spammers. Mind you I haven't played since guard stance update.

The guard stance change is beautiful, I leveled up my Raider to rep 1 but I left him because his slow guard and now that it's fixed I'm having a blast with Raider, I want to take him to high rep. But you have to see both sides too, you can't deal with light spammers but I as a Kensei I can't deal with a turtling Lawbringer because not even the recent buffs matter because he can block anything and shove.

MasterChiefPON
06-18-2017, 01:22 AM
I was playing with a friend, he plays Valk and he tried to open him up and the Lawbringer blocked everything and abused shove like never before.

MasterChiefPON
06-18-2017, 01:23 AM
If the Shove gets removed then they need to give LB some major buffs to compensate.



Hit the nail on the head.

At least from block..

dragon7jdc
06-18-2017, 06:06 AM
I agree with you. but i have a trick that will help you against all knights and vikings. their playstyle is ( cheap style and cautios). and i dont mean it as an insult. just look at their movesets. they excele in that method. so if you get up all in their face. they will lose. but ofcourse you have to be smart about it.

MasterChiefPON
06-18-2017, 07:07 AM
I agree with you. but i have a trick that will help you against all knights and vikings. their playstyle is ( cheap style and cautios). and i dont mean it as an insult. just look at their movesets. they excele in that method. so if you get up all in their face. they will lose. but ofcourse you have to be smart about it.

Well I'm just talking about shove from block particular case. Second, not every hero can do what you say and I'm not talking about bad players so that doesn't mean you can go in just like that, I know you have to be smart but some heroes just can't do anything against some kind of turtles. As example, I play Kensei, tell me if I verse a Lawbringer who doesn't parry at all and doesn't attack much, he blocks all and shoves everytime how do I get damage, even the recent "buffs" against turtles don't do anything because of the shove, tell me how do I keep the pressure, I can't.

Reinborn
06-18-2017, 12:31 PM
How little it takes to have a hero be a low tier one day, but demand nerfs for him the next day.

FatFreeIce
06-18-2017, 12:58 PM
I think maybe they should make the shove off the block dodgeable? Right now it's dumb, I don't even want to attack lawbringer because of it. I don't know the solution without making him really bad but that sounds alright to me? Make the speed of his block shove similar to the one he has off dodge. You could at least hit him but he will retain his armor through your attack or you can try to dodge it. Just a thought

S0Mi_xD
06-18-2017, 01:07 PM
Please ubisoft, my light spam no longer works on lawbringer, please nerf him so I can light spam him to death again.


If the Shove gets removed then they need to give LB some major buffs to compensate.


Hit the nail on the head.

Sorry guys, but get your head out of your own butt and think befor you coming across with a sarcastic comment.
With the guard stance change, lightspam will not work anyways, because light attacks getting interrupted on block.
This "can't light spam" argument is BS.

Blockshovel is currently a problem, and it should go, or at least should be like befor LB major buff.
It's the same problem like Conqueror with his superior block against heavies.

If the risk is much to high to use normal attacks, the mechanic that causes this immense risk is much to strong/ unbalanced.

Netcode_err_404
06-18-2017, 01:30 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1671155-The-moment-is-now-Lawbringer-buffs-nerfs-improvements

Dizzy4213
06-18-2017, 05:11 PM
Sorry guys, but get your head out of your own butt and think befor you coming across with a sarcastic comment.
With the guard stance change, lightspam will not work anyways, because light attacks getting interrupted on block.
This "can't light spam" argument is BS.

Blockshovel is currently a problem, and it should go, or at least should be like befor LB major buff.
It's the same problem like Conqueror with his superior block against heavies.

The "can't light spam" argument isn't BS, since now I'm actually able to block light spam. I don't understand why we need to bring up a dead topic. It was already established months ago that the followup after a shove can be reacted to, and if you dodge the light you get a free GB. If they followup with a heavy then just parry.

My point is, if you're going to remove a core part of Lawbringer's kit, then you need to give him something else to compensate. First thing that comes to mind is to keep the block shove but remove the unblockable light followup. In return, give LB a Shove Counter like the Warlord. If I parry any attack, I can then immediately Shove my opponent for massive stamina damage, and then followup with a guaranteed light attack.

vgrimr_J
06-18-2017, 05:35 PM
for the 10000000th time its not 50/50 jeez.

Vonnivek
06-18-2017, 06:09 PM
for the 10000000th time its not 50/50 jeez.

come on man, it's super hard to react, even on PC
on console it's nearly impossible
even it's reactable, it's so hard that's not fair for other players
because for law, it's very simple to shove,
however for other players, it's so ****in hard to react, almost can see it as a 50/50
and a 50/50 should not be so easily triggered, or the game will become a totally guessing game
all depend on guessing
and even you guess right, law has more health than most heroes, make him can guess wrong more
how stupid is this mechanic
fighting game should not be a totally guessing game

sorry for my poor english

Knight_Raime
06-18-2017, 06:14 PM
1) I dislike the term "abused" if it's not a glitch being exploited this word has no place.
2) "intended." LB is meant to be played defensively. his kit has a ton of parry options. Having shove on block further cements this.
3) if they removed shove off of block they would need to buff him else where.
4) LB doesn't have a 50/50. The guard break is from neutral. Meaning it's too easy to see coming and too slow to be a mix up.
The only time a GB will ever be considered apart of a 50/50 is if you can get into the GB from a soft feint.

S0Mi_xD
06-18-2017, 06:21 PM
for the 10000000th time its not 50/50 jeez.

It isn't a pure 50/50 - there you are right.
But it is still hard to react for most ppl and thats what it makes more of a guessing game, especially on Console.

But i think, the important point here is not, that it is a 50/50 or not, it's more about that LB gets a safe Shovel after a simple block.
This gives him the potential for easy turtle by just blocking. Doesn't even need to parry.
Even after a Heavy block he can easy just push to stop the enemies action.

It's a similar problem to Conquerors Superior Block on normal attacks, just for blocking Heavies he gets a free GB.

l8knight347
06-18-2017, 06:39 PM
how about no! the block shove can shut excessive feinting down. it makes the LB a good hero for new people that don't have parry timing down to use. the light after the block shove only does 15 damage and it can be dodged. the Lawbringer has all his annoying little problems that made him frustrating to play as ironed out now. now people are asking for a nerf. how about asking for a buff for your main. if you find a LB that is trying to block shove you to death, spam gb. it is that simple. they will have to attack to keep you off of them. it will be a side heavy from the left because that is what someone that would spam shove to light would do. if it is a top light you are getting out played and that person would beat you with the other heroes too.

S0Mi_xD
06-18-2017, 06:53 PM
1) I dislike the term "abused" if it's not a glitch being exploited this word has no place.
2) "intended." LB is meant to be played defensively. his kit has a ton of parry options. Having shove on block further cements this.
3) if they removed shove off of block they would need to buff him else where.
4) LB doesn't have a 50/50. The guard break is from neutral. Meaning it's too easy to see coming and too slow to be a mix up.
The only time a GB will ever be considered apart of a 50/50 is if you can get into the GB from a soft feint.

1.
You can "abuse" strong moves aswell, this has nothing to do with glitch or no glitch. Abusing a bad design is a common thing in games.
As an example: PK lightspammer "abused" their light speed to get an advantage.

2.
Conqu is also meant to play defensivly, but still his superior block is ridicously strong.

3.
I can't talk about this point, because i don't play LB and don't know if the impact would be this immense for him, to get block shovel removed or nerfed.
So please could you explain me how much such a change would affect LB?
- If it is "shovel would be useless", than take a look at conqu, warden, Cent, Warlord, its technicly the same move ( from input) and shovel is not the slowest of those moves - and still people manage to land it.

4.
Yep, you right about the GB - the GB is much slower and reactable, but the light comes pretty fast after the shovel, that means you need to dodge the light on reaction(and this is not the easiest task - and only the smalles part of the player base can do this) so many player need to rely abit more on guessing and take the risk that he doesn't attack and instead GBs.
Or They just taking the risk, and never dodge - so they can counter a potential GB.

So you wanna say, warden shoulderbash is not a 50/50?

If and AVERAGE player can evade the punish of a Shovel at least 80% of the time (20% tolarance for being human)
If you are a PRO player than he should be able to do evade the punish of a shovel in 99 % of the time.
Than i can agree with you that this can't be considered a 50/50.

But currently it isn't the case, you know why? Because it is more of a guessing game than pure reaction.

Knight_Raime
06-18-2017, 07:08 PM
1.
You can "abuse" strong moves aswell, this has nothing to do with glitch or no glitch. Abusing a bad design is a common thing in games.
As an example: PK lightspammer "abused" their light speed to get an advantage.

2.
Conqu is also meant to play defensivly, but still his superior block is ridicously strong.

3.
I can't talk about this point, because i don't play LB and don't know if the impact would be this immense for him, to get block shovel removed or nerfed.
So please could you explain me how much such a change would affect LB?
- If it is "shovel would be useless", than take a look at conqu, warden, Cent, Warlord, its technicly the same move ( from input) and shovel is not the slowest of those moves - and still people manage to land it.

4.
Yep, you right about the GB - the GB is much slower and reactable, but the light comes pretty fast after the shovel, that means you need to dodge the light on reaction(and this is not the easiest task - and only the smalles part of the player base can do this) so many player need to rely abit more on guessing and take the risk that he doesn't attack and instead GBs.
Or They just taking the risk, and never dodge - so they can counter a potential GB.

So you wanna say, warden shoulderbash is not a 50/50?

If and AVERAGE player can evade the punish of a Shovel at least 80% of the time (20% tolarance for being human)
If you are a PRO player than he should be able to do evade the punish of a shovel in 99 % of the time.
Than i can agree with you that this can't be considered a 50/50.

But currently it isn't the case, you know why? Because it is more of a guessing game than pure reaction.

1) I still don't count it as abuse. but I acknowledge that's my own hang up.
2) yeah. superior block on a shield hero and shove on LB are not fun. and strong things for defense. But defensive meta as a whole needs a change. and then both heros need massive changes to compensate for ditching those mechanics.
3) In average play shove is really the only way he applies pressure. If they added armor to his heavies that at least would give him the pressure he lacks and we could get rid of shove off block.
4) The space in between seeing a light coming vs a GB coming is significant enough that you should be able to reasonably see it and react to it. I firmly believe people only struggle against this aspect of LB because LB himself isn't used often enough due to being out of meta. So the majority of the player base haven't had the oppertunity to build muscle memory to his animations.

I can't speak on wardens bash because I haven't touched him since this new patch. Which a lot of people are saying ruined his mix up. I'd say what the warden did was more of a mix up than a 50 50. since he could bash into light light, cancel into GB, or cancel into parry. that's more than 2 options so to me it's not a 50/50. Plus the situation is different. With the warden he's reacting to you. Where as with the LB he's not reacting. Just doing. If he waits for you to do something the time has already passed in which GB could be used effectively.

To put it in a better way when you're the warden and you land a light and start charging your bash you are thinking what you will do if he does x. where as with the lawbringer when you block and shove you think "i'm going for a light in this direction" or "i'm going to GB right after." I'm not against the removal of shove off block. I just think he'll need love else where if/when it changes. I agree the concept of what he's getting off of defense isn't healthy. But I accept it as a needed evil until the games pace changes from defense to more offensive and the devs are open to bigger changes on the LB again.

S0Mi_xD
06-18-2017, 07:20 PM
1) I still don't count it as abuse. but I acknowledge that's my own hang up.
2) yeah. superior block on a shield hero and shove on LB are not fun. and strong things for defense. But defensive meta as a whole needs a change. and then both heros need massive changes to compensate for ditching those mechanics.
3) In average play shove is really the only way he applies pressure. If they added armor to his heavies that at least would give him the pressure he lacks and we could get rid of shove off block.
4) The space in between seeing a light coming vs a GB coming is significant enough that you should be able to reasonably see it and react to it. I firmly believe people only struggle against this aspect of LB because LB himself isn't used often enough due to being out of meta. So the majority of the player base haven't had the oppertunity to build muscle memory to his animations.

I can't speak on wardens bash because I haven't touched him since this new patch. Which a lot of people are saying ruined his mix up. I'd say what the warden did was more of a mix up than a 50 50. since he could bash into light light, cancel into GB, or cancel into parry. that's more than 2 options so to me it's not a 50/50. Plus the situation is different. With the warden he's reacting to you. Where as with the LB he's not reacting. Just doing. If he waits for you to do something the time has already passed in which GB could be used effectively.

To put it in a better way when you're the warden and you land a light and start charging your bash you are thinking what you will do if he does x. where as with the lawbringer when you block and shove you think "i'm going for a light in this direction" or "i'm going to GB right after." I'm not against the removal of shove off block. I just think he'll need love else where if/when it changes. I agree the concept of what he's getting off of defense isn't healthy. But I accept it as a needed evil until the games pace changes from defense to more offensive and the devs are open to bigger changes on the LB again.

1. Ok, that depends on the point of view
2. Completly agree, thats something i do say since a time, at first we need a change to defence meta, then we can see what change a hero needs to balance him around the core mechanics.
3. Mhh, ok i can't agree on this - because as a berserker main, i do have much less tools to apply pressure and still can manage it. But ok
4. I know, and i agree at this, but i do not talk about the time between light and GB, i mean, only the LIght attack, for many player it isn't that easy to react to a light by a dodge on pure reaction. And this light speed makes it a kind of guessing game (50/50)

GrimBlitzer
06-18-2017, 07:38 PM
As a Lawbringer main, I mainly use my shove after I land a heavy. It would not have an effect on me gameplay wise,and I agree with others who are saying that the dirty LB's are only using shove on block and nothing else.

Whether the devs do anything about this or not, some ideas that could be less stressful are: Can only shove after blocking a heavy, not after blocking lights 0R remove shove on block entirely.

Once again, doesn't rustle my jimmies what ever they decide.

Knight_Raime
06-18-2017, 07:51 PM
1. Ok, that depends on the point of view
2. Completly agree, thats something i do say since a time, at first we need a change to defence meta, then we can see what change a hero needs to balance him around the core mechanics.
3. Mhh, ok i can't agree on this - because as a berserker main, i do have much less tools to apply pressure and still can manage it. But ok
4. I know, and i agree at this, but i do not talk about the time between light and GB, i mean, only the LIght attack, for many player it isn't that easy to react to a light by a dodge on pure reaction. And this light speed makes it a kind of guessing game (50/50)

Zerker has speed on his side. A long with more ways to cancel things and get into other things. LB does not.
As a zerker you can soft cancel lights. cancel recovery on whiffed hits. and your attacks get faster when you do your inf combo. Plus you get armor in your second landed hit.

LB has literally none of those traits. Both LB and zerker lack reliable openers. but at least the zerker has some things going for him. LB really doesn't.
I'll have to get back to you on the speed of the light after the shove. as I don't know it's exact frame data. But I can't imagine it being 500ms. It could be 600 or 700ms. if it's 700ms that's as fast as a bushi light if I remember and I react to that pretty easily. IMO it's not the speed of the light. it's that the light can come from any direction. How you handle it depends on what guard you got.

If you're an assassin they don't need to switch their guard direction to prevent a block. so keep an eye out for their guard direction before they shove you. If you're not an assassin they have to switch their guard direction or it's auto blocked. So pay attention to your guard direction. They won't be shoving from that direction.

Netcode_err_404
06-18-2017, 10:49 PM
As a Lawbringer main, I mainly use my shove after I land a heavy. It would not have an effect on me gameplay wise,and I agree with others who are saying that the dirty LB's are only using shove on block and nothing else.

Whether the devs do anything about this or not, some ideas that could be less stressful are: Can only shove after blocking a heavy, not after blocking lights 0R remove shove on block entirely.

Once again, doesn't rustle my jimmies what ever they decide.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1671155-The-moment-is-now-Lawbringer-buffs-nerfs-improvements

Netcode_err_404
06-18-2017, 11:19 PM
for the 10000000th time its not 50/50 jeez.

May not be a fifthy fifthy, but light that comes from the shove, is so fast, that you need absurd reflexes to counter it on reaction.,and i doubt you are that good.

Only 2 classes can win vs a shove "50/50" 100% of the times.


Conq : As soon as you get shoved, you can side dodge and shield bash. Its so fast that doesn't matter if LB goes for a Gb instead, you will win

Raider: You can dodge and CGB at the same time.

STOP.

Maybe shinobi can do something, but I don't know.

S0Mi_xD
06-19-2017, 12:01 AM
Zerker has speed on his side. A long with more ways to cancel things and get into other things. LB does not.
As a zerker you can soft cancel lights. cancel recovery on whiffed hits. and your attacks get faster when you do your inf combo. Plus you get armor in your second landed hit.

LB has literally none of those traits. Both LB and zerker lack reliable openers. but at least the zerker has some things going for him. LB really doesn't.
I'll have to get back to you on the speed of the light after the shove. as I don't know it's exact frame data. But I can't imagine it being 500ms. It could be 600 or 700ms. if it's 700ms that's as fast as a bushi light if I remember and I react to that pretty easily. IMO it's not the speed of the light. it's that the light can come from any direction. How you handle it depends on what guard you got.

If you're an assassin they don't need to switch their guard direction to prevent a block. so keep an eye out for their guard direction before they shove you. If you're not an assassin they have to switch their guard direction or it's auto blocked. So pay attention to your guard direction. They won't be shoving from that direction.

Berserkers Speed isnt' that much of an advantage.
Basic speed:
Light Top: 600 ms
Light Side: 500 ms
Heavy Top: 900 ms
Heavy Side: 800 ms

Chain speed:
Light All: Stays same
Heavy Top 800 ms
Heavy Side: 700 ms

LB speed:
Basic and chained are the same:
Light Top: 500
Light Side: 600
Heavy Top: 1000
Heavy Side: 900

For this only the light speed is important: Both have 500-600 ms

1. Soft cancel of light is pretty useless and has a short window to use.
Why it is useless? Because the light attacks on side or forward dodge are pretty slow, don't know the number but i estimate them at 700ms.
Those moves get always blocked or parried if i try a dodgefeint - soft feint of light sounds cool, but it is pretty useless and risky -

2. His ability "Closed combat" xD never had a chance to use it, you know why? it's impossible with such a short window :'D i need to focus on in in training mode, using it in battle ...you will miss the timing if in situations where you really need it. You need insane reactions to pull of this ability in a real battle

3. About the faster attacks:
- Light gets blocked - chain ends
- Light gets parried because its predictable sheme - light, heavy, light, heavy
- Heavies are getting parried pretty easy
- and if you saw it some times, a GB after a heavy feint is easy CGBed as well...

4. Wow the hyperarmor ... sure it is usefull, but only against people who don't know how to handle it, the only thing you need to know is, you can't interrupt him with attacks, so just try to block a light (easierst way) or parry a heavy, or just dodge away (you don't even need to roll)
You know what 3/4 of LBs do if they fight my berserker ?
Yes, they shovel me in every chain, you know why this works? Because LB actually has an opener xD
Also LB has hyper on his shovel. Most of the time they don't even need to trade.

LB is a Tank, and not a glasscanon - sure he isn't that agile like a Berserker.
In this point you are comparing the wrong classes.

LB has no relieable opener? So Warden, Conqu, Warlord, Shinobi, Centurion don't have a relieable opner too?

I don't like it if people say a class has nothing, that's nonsense... all classes do have something.

5.
Yeah, i know about the this, that you classes with normal block, do block it if the LB doesn't take a different direction, then the last last block direction of the enemy.
But to pay attention to the guard direction befor he shovels you is much easier said than done. Its pretty much impossible, except if you know when the enemy will shovel you, or you only concentrate on his Guard Stance.

S0Mi_xD
06-19-2017, 12:05 AM
May not be a fifthy fifthy, but light that comes from the shove, is so fast, that you need absurd reflexes to counter it on reaction.,and i doubt you are that good.

Only 2 classes can win vs a shove "50/50" 100% of the times.


Conq : As soon as you get shoved, you can side dodge and shield bash. Its so fast that doesn't matter if LB goes for a Gb instead, you will win

Raider: You can dodge and CGB at the same time.

STOP.

Maybe shinobi can do something, but I don't know.

Wow, the first time... i agree with you o.o

But Valk can do the dodge block to and Kensei aswell (but kensei his superior block on dodge is pretty much impossible in this situation)

Arekonator
06-19-2017, 12:26 AM
LB main here, closing on rep 30.

I see shove from block as important tool for overall very slow Lawbringer to shift a momentum and initiative in the fight, especially vs fast characters. I agree that the following mixup is bit too strong for being so easily accessible.

My personal solution:
Leave heavy>shove and dodge>shove as they are now, including followups.
Make followups after block>shove easier to react. Not sure to what extent, just please no pre-buff lawbro with 700ms light after shove that basically gives away free parry.

Reasoning behind this is to make dealing with him turtling less obnoxious, in a way that it allows you to relatively easy deal with his response unless you are sleeping, without impairing his ability to keep his combo up once he actually gets going.


For the record, ever since 1,05 lawbro could always do that and the guardswitch speed buff didnt really changed it. What it did change was that previously, if you attempted to block a hit in a chain where attacks come in fast sequence and missed, it made the followup attack physically impossible to defend against, most prominent examples being PK light-light and Valks light-light-sweep.

Arekonator
06-19-2017, 12:29 AM
Wow, the first time... i agree with you o.o

But Valk can do the dodge block to and Kensei aswell (but kensei his superior block on dodge is pretty much impossible in this situation)

If you meet assassins that can react to followup light, its pretty scary when they start deflecting. Also kensei if he is good enough, he can do forward dash-GB with superior block that either grants him free GB if the LB goes for light, or simply CGB the GB attempt, as he can CGB on forward dodge in same way raider can on side dodge.

S0Mi_xD
06-19-2017, 01:03 AM
If you meet assassins that can react to followup light, its pretty scary when they start deflecting. Also kensei if he is good enough, he can do forward dash-GB with superior block that either grants him free GB if the LB goes for light, or simply CGB the GB attempt, as he can CGB on forward dodge in same way raider can on side dodge.

The difference with deflect is, that deflect has a much smaller window to do it, as an Berserker main i have a hard time to react on the exact timing for this (ok i play on ps4, maybe it is harder there, i can't compare it)

For Kensei, you need to have the guard in the direction of the attack when you dodge, i don't know if this is possible to manage after being shoveld.

Netcode_err_404
06-19-2017, 01:53 AM
Wow, the first time... i agree with you o.o

But Valk can do the dodge block to and Kensei aswell (but kensei his superior block on dodge is pretty much impossible in this situation)

Then probably this is the first time, you have common sense. BEcause is clear that a class CANNOT be built around a single move. Lb needs a buff, serious buffs, and the block shove mix up removed.

That doesn't mean removing his shove from block BUT removing the possibility to go full offensive from a block. Exactly the same thing that needs to happen with conqs's superior block, which is lame as hell, for more details about my personal view of the LB ( since it hapopens to be my main character, oh well, when I played the game actively).

Check it, and give a feedback if you want http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1671155-The-moment-is-now-Lawbringer-buffs-nerfs-improvements


If you meet assassins that can react to followup light, its pretty scary when they start deflecting. Also kensei if he is good enough, he can do forward dash-GB with superior block that either grants him free GB if the LB goes for light, or simply CGB the GB attempt, as he can CGB on forward dodge in same way raider can on side dodge.

Kensei could do the trick, but you need absurd amount of reflexes. Besides they nbeed to switch the guard in the same direction of their dodge, and i doubt is possible after beeing shoved, because you enter into a stagger animation

Conq and raider, can counter it, easy with eyes closed.

Knight_Raime
06-20-2017, 12:48 AM
Berserkers Speed isnt' that much of an advantage.
Basic speed:
Light Top: 600 ms
Light Side: 500 ms
Heavy Top: 900 ms
Heavy Side: 800 ms

Chain speed:
Light All: Stays same
Heavy Top 800 ms
Heavy Side: 700 ms

LB speed:
Basic and chained are the same:
Light Top: 500
Light Side: 600
Heavy Top: 1000
Heavy Side: 900

For this only the light speed is important: Both have 500-600 ms

1. Soft cancel of light is pretty useless and has a short window to use.
Why it is useless? Because the light attacks on side or forward dodge are pretty slow, don't know the number but i estimate them at 700ms.
Those moves get always blocked or parried if i try a dodgefeint - soft feint of light sounds cool, but it is pretty useless and risky -

2. His ability "Closed combat" xD never had a chance to use it, you know why? it's impossible with such a short window :'D i need to focus on in in training mode, using it in battle ...you will miss the timing if in situations where you really need it. You need insane reactions to pull of this ability in a real battle

3. About the faster attacks:
- Light gets blocked - chain ends
- Light gets parried because its predictable sheme - light, heavy, light, heavy
- Heavies are getting parried pretty easy
- and if you saw it some times, a GB after a heavy feint is easy CGBed as well...

4. Wow the hyperarmor ... sure it is usefull, but only against people who don't know how to handle it, the only thing you need to know is, you can't interrupt him with attacks, so just try to block a light (easierst way) or parry a heavy, or just dodge away (you don't even need to roll)
You know what 3/4 of LBs do if they fight my berserker ?
Yes, they shovel me in every chain, you know why this works? Because LB actually has an opener xD
Also LB has hyper on his shovel. Most of the time they don't even need to trade.

LB is a Tank, and not a glasscanon - sure he isn't that agile like a Berserker.
In this point you are comparing the wrong classes.

LB has no relieable opener? So Warden, Conqu, Warlord, Shinobi, Centurion don't have a relieable opner too?

I don't like it if people say a class has nothing, that's nonsense... all classes do have something.

5.
Yeah, i know about the this, that you classes with normal block, do block it if the LB doesn't take a different direction, then the last last block direction of the enemy.
But to pay attention to the guard direction befor he shovels you is much easier said than done. Its pretty much impossible, except if you know when the enemy will shovel you, or you only concentrate on his Guard Stance.

Apologies that I didn't get to this sooner. Just got a chance to hop back today.
Individually what zerker has isn't much. it's all his traits combined. You are correct in that good turtles (or standard LB's) screw a zerker over.
However. Because imo zerker has more "mix ups" or things he could do compared to a LB he's stronger than LB. zerker animations are also difficult to handle at least in comparison to LB.
everything Lb does looks big and unwieldy. But zerker they look no where near telegraphed.

Anyway lets get into this:

1) It's all in how you use soft feinting. If you use it too frequently (or to open from neutral) it's going to be easily readable. I typically use soft feints on my zerker for 2 things. whiff punishing. or as "it's too stupid to be true" tactic. Where I mean I can sit there and condition someone into being used to my standard infinite. but then I start changing directions. instead of going left light right heavy i'd do left light left heavy. and if they catch onto that i'll either soft feint it or hard feint it.

2) I've personally never had an issue with the window. I always do top heavy because it's easy bait.

3) if you always start with a light ofc it's going to be blocked. You gotta work feinting in. As I touched on earlier the inf combo is indeed predictable. if you only continue it without soft feinting or hard feinting. and never change up your tactics. I've literally only ever come across one person that read me like a book as a zerker despite how many times I changed what I did. I'm not aware of what level of people you play against. But zerker is usually a guarenteed win for me if I can manage to flood their mind with unpredictability.

4) hyper armor is underestimated. Probably because in top tier it's never in play since combos hardly exist. but at least in my skill level It works wonders on people who are parry happy or tend to play over aggressive. My favorite standard here is whiffing a light into a top heavy.

I'm comparing them for very valid reasons. It doesn't matter if you're a tank, an assassin, or a vanguard. You need options. LB doesn't have options. He's got shove off block into light, 1-2 viable moves from his parry list. and a single mix up with unblockable attacks. LB's armor on shove is meaningless since nothing is confirmed off of a shove. Zerker's HA is present during attacking with an actual attack damage. that's very different.

Yes he doesn't. If you think his shove is an opener you must play against very different people. Warden's top light/ crushing counter is his opener and bash keeps the door open. Conq doesn't really have an opener. His bash confirms a light. but the bash from neutral is super easy to dodge. if the conq had something to guarentee a bash then we'd be talking. warlord does have an opener since headbutt in 90% of situations does guarentee a light. Not to mention if he correctly times a block in all guard he gets confirmed damage as well. Shinobi's kick does give confirmed damage if he lands it. but the kick is pretty easy to avoid. as with the conq if something gave the kick then we'd be talking. and centurion doesn't have an opener. His kick is almost as easy to dodge as nobushi's kick. and it's just as punishable as her kick if not more.

Perhaps either my typing sucks. When I say LB has nothing I don't mean that in a literal sense. He has things he can do. He has value. I specified what he doesn't have. I didn't generally state he had nothing.

5) I'll have to disagree. If you can't reliably keep up with someone's guard direction switches and animations that's a player skill issue. Not a game issue. Majority of the things in the game are slow enough or telegraphed enough that any person who puts decent time into the game should eventually be able to react to. That's why the defensive meta is even possible.

Perhaps i'm biased here since every hero you've named i've put good time on. Orochi was my most played before centurion. then zerker. then warden, conq, and LB were all basically tied playtime wise. So i've come to be familiar with their match ups and general animations. Really the only people I haven't put a decent amount of time into are raider, warlord, kensei, and valk. But i've fought them enough on heros i'm comfortable with in order to be confident against them and aware of what they can do.

For clarification sake when people refer to an opener they refer to something that will consistently get passed defensive play and give you either direct damage or options that will lead to direct damage regardless of skill level. Pk's zone is an example of this. While I can accept that at lower levels of play LB's shove could be considered an opener it's not at my level. and i'm hardly even close to top tier players. Even if it was an opener at my level it's not in top tier play. So it doesn't fit the bill.

AKDagriZ
06-20-2017, 01:11 AM
wait a minute i didnt read the whole 3 page , i dont main the lawbringer , but his light on shove is reactable , dodging attack class can also punish him if he try to cancel into a GB

Felis_Menari
06-20-2017, 06:00 AM
If anything is gonna go, it's the semi-guaranteed light from block>Shove>light (dodge->Shove>light is fine). Removing block>Shove would be a mistake, as it was just fine before the semi-guaranteed light was introduced.

Netcode_err_404
06-20-2017, 01:22 PM
As a Lawbringer main, I mainly use my shove after I land a heavy. It would not have an effect on me gameplay wise,and I agree with others who are saying that the dirty LB's are only using shove on block and nothing else.

Whether the devs do anything about this or not, some ideas that could be less stressful are: Can only shove after blocking a heavy, not after blocking lights 0R remove shove on block entirely.

Once again, doesn't rustle my jimmies what ever they decide.

YOu manage to land heavies with a LB ? HOW ????

Shakti.
06-20-2017, 02:05 PM
I remember the devs saying that the shove on block would be removed. But then season 2 came up and all the unbalance pales in comparison to how broken Centurion is and Shinobi was.
I have a feeling the internal team organization is not so good or they have very little people actually working on stuff.