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View Full Version : Here's why Nobushi is busted in team modes



Alernakin
06-16-2017, 06:04 PM
I posted this on reddit already, but I was told to think of making this thread here as well.

Hello. My Uplay name is SB.Alernakin, and I've been playing Nobushi since launch. I've also been involved in the tournament scene since day one, so my thoughts will be presented from the perspective of tournament level players. Today, I'm here to tell you exactly why Nobushi is the strongest 2v2 and 4v4 character. Many people don't know or believe this, since she's a relatively weak 1v1 character, but she's very much needed in all the team modes in order to be competitive.

First, I'll talk about 2v2 and why Nobushi is so strong in that mode.

-- Zone attack. It's quick, deals at least 33 damage (more with bleed) and has great AoE, nigh 360 degrees. On top of that, it can be made unparryable by simply positioning yourself so that there's someone on your right. It is then quicker than Peacekeeper zone. It can be used to interrupt all attempts at an offensive action from the opponents, meaning it's very easy to punish with it. And if all of that wasn't enough, it is nigh unpunishable. All it takes to block attacks is feinting second part of zone and cancelling recovery with a dash, which makes it an attack with 0 recovery frames. If the opponent decides to guard break you in your dash, you can punish that attempt very easily with a dash attack.

-- Dash attacks. Not only are they quick and deal at least a bar of damage, they also have no recovery frames, just like the zone attack, making them unpunishable on reaction. They can also be chained together, meaning guard breaking while Nobushi dashes is unreliable at best and heavily punishable at worst. Just like the zone, both dash attacks can be unlocked in order to make them unparryable (unlocked cobra strike is also quicker than usual), and even if that weren't possible, you could very easily target the other player while you use sidewinder due to its extraordinarly wide arc. As a side note, sidewinder hitbox does not match the animation.

-- Zero recovery. I know I already mentioned this twice, but it's a very big part of why Nobushi is so strong. Zone, dash attacks and viper's retreat all have virtually zero recovery frames due to dash cancel, and that cancel is very hard to punish. There are two ways to even attempt to punish all of those attacks -- one is to predict them and attack at pretty much the same time as the Nobushi. The other is to try using a guard break every now and then if the Nobushi isn't using dash attacks after recovery cancel. Both of those ways are, however, very unreliable and highly punishable.

-- Revenge. Some people think the Nobushi issue would be solved if only tournaments started implementing revenge. That is, however, not true. I'll use Barace's post here to aid me: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/64g7cu/new_information_on_how_revenge_works_against/ Nobushi is always tagged with both enemies. This means that as long as the enemies are not also tagged with the Nobushi's ally, the game thinks that she is in a 1v2 when they attack her. In this situation her attacks give 0 revenge, and she gets 4x revenge. Once in revenge, her zone is amazingly strong and can turn the tide of battle very quickly.
Now that we got 2v2 out of the way, let's talk about 4v4.

-- Nobushi is the best 1vX character in the game. Any small mistake is easily punished with a zone attack, unlocked sidewinder is a 100% safe option due to its wide arc and being unparryable. The usual tactic in a 2v1 situation is to either use guard break into guaranteed damage or lock in the outnumbered player with CC. Nobushi has counterplay to both of those tactics -- if she reads a guard break correctly, that's free 33 unpunishable damage that she gets. If opponents try to use a lot of CC -- Nobushi can use her dash attacks for punish, or just zone if the one using CC abilities is on her right. Revenge just makes her all the more threatening.

-- Feats. Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible -- usually you need at least two people to reliably kill her, and as already stated, Nobushi can win that situation as well. Pre-nerf revenge attack was the strongest level 2 feat in the game, however after nerf it is much weaker, therefore probably not a big issue. Her level 3 heal feat, however, can outheal demon embrace -- that's how strong it is. Combined with body count and the fact that Nobushi usually gets her feats the quickest, it makes her a very durable character that barely ever dies. Level 4 feats aren't much of an issue, fire bomb being strong in denying revives and end game fights, but other characters have similar or better level 4 feats.

-- Impact in team fights. Nobushi is the most important character in team fights. Killing one basically ensures victory, while losing your own spells disaster. Her insane zone AoE and damage, great range with dash attacks and, again, unpunishability all make her a must-have. You are simply at a disadvantage if you initiate a team fight without her.
I'm sure there are details that I've missed in this post, but I believe those are the main reasons Nobushi is one of the strongest characters in the game. I tried to make this thread as concise as possible while still having a lot of information.

As for how to fix this situation -- I have no amazing fixes. The easiest ones, for now, would be to make zone attack 24 damage and to adjust sidewinder hitbox so that it actually matches the animation. I believe unlocked attacks aren't easy to fix, otherwise they'd already be gone, but of course that has to go as well. Nobushi lacks a bit in some areas in 1v1, like hidden stance and kick, but it's important that we don't just buff her without nerfing at least the zone attack.

And if anyone doesn't believe me -- I'm including VODs of the last three big 2v2 tournaments with the best players in the game. Hint: there are Nobushis in almost all of the teams that did well.

ScottJund's Brawler's Guild: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/145913024

Reddit 2v2 Tournament: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/148742214

HallofHeroes 2v2 Tournament: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149256069

JibletHunter
06-16-2017, 06:07 PM
Nobushi is garbage tier right now. her zone is her only powerful tool. expect it and guard accordingly.

Alernakin
06-16-2017, 06:14 PM
I'm sorry, but have you even read the post? It's based on tournament play, with tournament VoDs attached. Do you have any counter arguments, or just that you think Nobushi isn't good, despite the best players in the game all agreeing with me?

Gray360UK
06-16-2017, 06:26 PM
I'm sorry, but have you even read the post? It's based on tournament play, with tournament VoDs attached. Do you have any counter arguments, or just that you think Nobushi isn't good, despite the best players in the game all agreeing with me?

Funny that I just picked a random moment in the ScottJund link you provided, 2 hours 14, and there we have footage of a Nobushi being totally destroyed ;)

Honestly, your opinion is your opinion, same for the guy above who replied to you. I think Nobushi is good, but in the middle of the pack at best. Also an opinion. What you just said, that 'all the best people agree with me' ... yeah ... okay :rolleyes:

Overall, I am not even sure what your post is supposed to be saying? It is a buff request or a nerf request or just a general synopsis?

You describe the Nobushi as if she is some kind of God. You make many statements that are laughable 'Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible' being a very good example. Total nonsense. Still, apparently after all that she needs fixing somehow?

JibletHunter
06-16-2017, 06:29 PM
I'm sorry, but have you even read the post? It's based on tournament play, with tournament VoDs attached. Do you have any counter arguments, or just that you think Nobushi isn't good, despite the best players in the game all agreeing with me?

I read it. it was filled with opinions and was garbage.

Alernakin
06-16-2017, 06:35 PM
Funny that I just picked a random moment in the ScottJund link you provided, 2 hours 14, and there we have footage of a Nobushi being totally destroyed ;)

Honestly, your opinion is your opinion, same for the guy above who replied to you. I think Nobushi is good, but in the middle of the pack at best. Also an opinion. What you just said, that 'all the best people agree with me' ... yeah ... okay :rolleyes:

Overall, I am not even sure what your post is supposed to be saying? It is a buff request or a nerf request or just a general synopsis?

You describe the Nobushi as if she is some kind of God. You make many statements that are laughable 'Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible' being a very good example. Total nonsense. Still, apparently after all that she needs fixing somehow?

Oh, but you will ignore the fact that in all of those links, Nobushi teams were the one who won the tournament? ScottJund's tournament had 1,600$ prize pool. Do you think best players in the game would not use what's the strongest to win that kind of money? For over a month now, not a single non-Nobushi team has won against a good Nobushi team in a tournament.

And the purpose of my thread is clear. A) to raise awareness, b) to provide suggestions. All of those have been given to Ubisoft directly, but the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character, despite her being by far the strongest one in the game.

Blasto95
06-16-2017, 06:43 PM
He's not trying to say that 90% of the playerbase is struggling with Nobushi in Team fights, its well established that any hero is viable in just about any situation for the majority of players. This guy here is not in the majority and is bringing up a valid point for the competitive scene.

I have no idea how to fix Nobushi for a competitive scene but they just have to be careful not to nerf her for the majority. Someway to increase her recovery frames, make the unlock ZA punishable. Fix her in ways that will mostly only effect the competitive scene.

Great read, wish we heard more from the players actually in the competitive scene chime in on balance changes around here.

Dizzy4213
06-16-2017, 06:50 PM
What a load of horse****!

Let's nerf the living **** out of a low/mid-tier hero because some so-called 'competitive players' abuse unlock exploits to win.

Your post is full of so much hyperbole, I can't take any of it seriously. You see a lot of Nobushi in 2v2 tournaments. So what? That proves nothing, even if it's only the teams with a Nobushi winning. She is a zoning character, so naturally she will have more impact in a 2v2 fight than a character like Orochi for instance.


All of those have been given to Ubisoft directly, but the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character, despite her being by far the strongest one in the game.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Vg0JstydL8HCg/giphy.gif

Gray360UK
06-16-2017, 06:53 PM
ScottJund's tournament had 1,600$ prize pool.

A whole $1,600 huh? Wow ... that's like ... enough to buy the back bumper of the average car ... truly high stakes stuff. Well you must be right then ;)

So if the best players in the game only play the strongest characters, how does a team lose? I mean, they are the strongest characters and they are the best players, how can they possibly lose to each other? How can it be anything other than a neverevending tie, a draw, the unstoppable force meets the immovable object ...

Or maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

The problem with people like you, that focus on the tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase, is that you forget all about the other 98% of the playerbase. You've obviously done that, you make a statement that proves it 'the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character'. Maybe this is because the community is not ScottJund, tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase?

Again, maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

You're like a guy sitting on the tip of an iceberg thinking he knows everything, when all he can see is water and sky and he has no idea what's going on beneath the waves. You might want to take your head out of tournament players arses long enough to have a look at what's going on in the real world, or at least concede that if their opinions don't match yours then maybe you aren't automatically right about everything just because you watched a few tournaments that had Nobushi in them.

Lucifist666
06-16-2017, 06:54 PM
I LOVE nobushi. I'm pretty decent with her but I feel like she is very immobile. I have a hard time avoiding in your face characters. it sounds like you need to teach me a thing or two. Haha! I'll be referring to this thread in the future. Thanks man.

Blasto95
06-16-2017, 06:58 PM
A whole $1,600 huh? Wow ... that's like ... enough to buy the back bumper of the average car ... truly high stakes stuff. Well you must be right then ;)

So if the best players in the game only play the strongest characters, how does a team lose? I mean, they are the strongest characters and they are the best players, how can they possibly lose to each other? How can it be anything other than a neverevending tie, a draw, the unstoppable force meets the immovable object ...

Or maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

The problem with people like you, that focus on the tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase, is that you forget all about the other 98% of the playerbase. You've obviously done that, you make a statement that proves it 'the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character'. Maybe this is because the community is not ScottJund, tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase?

Again, maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

You're like a guy sitting on the tip of an iceberg thinking he knows everything, when all he can see is water and sky and he has no idea what's going on beneath the waves. You might want to take your head out of tournament players arses long enough to have a look at what's going on in the real world, or at least concede that if their opinions don't match yours then maybe you aren't automatically right about everything just because you watched a few tournaments that had Nobushi in them.

Sooo you think canceling animations that probably should not be able to be canceled so quickly and unlock ZA's corresponds to the 98% player base skill level? Hes not asking for a flat out nerf to her damage(except for an OP ZA) or health or speed of her attacks. How about fixing unlock tech, make her recovery frames longer for certain moves that would be completely unnoticeable for 95% of players. Theres plenty of ways to tune a character that almost no one would notice yet could possibly fix grievances for the people that bring in thousands of viewers and potentially new players.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 07:05 PM
Sooo you think canceling animations that probably should not be able to be canceled so quickly and unlock ZA's corresponds to the 98% player base skill level? Hes not asking for a flat out nerf to her damage(except for an OP ZA) or health or speed of her attacks. How about fixing unlock tech, make her recovery frames longer for certain moves that would be completely unnoticeable for 95% of players. Theres plenty of ways to tune a character that almost no one would notice yet could possibly fix grievances for the people that bring in thousands of viewers and potentially new players.

Alernakin posting here was a terrible decision. The people here are not even remotely competitive so the responses to his topic (which is completely correct btw) is going to be met with the same people who cried for Warden to be nerfed into insignificance that don't really understand the game at higher level. There's no way to not sound smug saying that, but its 100% true.

Snickers-Bar
06-16-2017, 07:14 PM
I would not dare to say the people here on forum are less competitive when in the competitve subreddit there is a crazy guy asking for PK buff lol.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 07:16 PM
I would not dare to say the people here on forum are less competitive when in the competitve subreddit there is a crazy guy asking for PK buff lol.

And that dude got downvoted and made fun of for being stupid.

Gray360UK
06-16-2017, 07:27 PM
Alernakin posting here was a terrible decision. The people here are not even remotely competitive so the responses to his topic (which is completely correct btw) is going to be met with the same people who cried for Warden to be nerfed into insignificance that don't really understand the game at higher level. There's no way to not sound smug saying that, but its 100% true.

You are smug so how would you not sound it?

The key point, which you touch on, is that people here are not remotely like you. What you get wrong is that you believe that automatically makes them inferior, stupid and not worth listening to. Their opinions are automatically invalid and their experiences mean nothing. Even when they outnumber you massively and so, actually represent the game and it's balance far more accurately than you do. You represent nothing.

Even if we accept that anyone beneath your lofty superior level cannot understand the game (would just like to add at this point how repulsive I think people like you with this attitude are) then again, bearing in mind that they massively outnumber you and actually represent the game and what happens in it in a way you can never do, the game needs to be balanced around them. They are the players. They are the game.

You are basically a smug version of Beethoven telling people how easy it is to play the piano. A smug Picasso telling people how easy it is to paint. A smug Kasparov telling people how easy it is to play Chess. So yes, let's make Chess harder because Kasparov.

https://media.tenor.com/images/f6a77f81b147edcc16062d690ec6bf17/tenor.gif



Now go and scrub yourself clean after exposing yourself to the great unwashed masses.

Dizzy4213
06-16-2017, 07:29 PM
I would not dare to say the people here on forum are less competitive when in the competitve subreddit there is a crazy guy asking for PK buff lol.

Just ignore these so-called competitive players. They can continue to blow smoke up each other's *** for all I care.


The people here are not even remotely competitive so the responses to his topic (which is completely correct btw) is going to be met with the same people who cried for Warden to be nerfed into insignificance that don't really understand the game at higher level. There's no way to not sound smug saying that, but its 100% true.

Get off your high horse will you. So everyone that posts here is automatically a scrub low-tier player huh? Piss off with your 'high-level' ****. It doesn't exist! High level in this game is nothing more than a contest where whoever can use those most broken hero/turtle the best/abuse the most exploits, wins.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 07:30 PM
You are smug so how would you not sound it?

The key point, which you touch on, is that people here are not remotely like you. What you get wrong is that you believe that automatically makes them inferior, stupid and not worth listening to. Their opinions are automatically invalid and their experiences mean nothing. Even when they outnumber you massively and so, actually represent the game and it's balance far more accurately than you do. You represent nothing.

Even if we accept that anyone beneath your lofty superior level cannot understand the game (would just like to add at this point how repulsive I think people like you with this attitude are) then again, bearing in mind that they massively outnumber you and actually represent the game and what happens in it in a way you can never do, the game needs to be balanced around them. They are the players. They are the game.

You are basically a smug version of Beethoven telling people who easy it is to play the piano. A smug Picasso telling people who easy it is to paint. A smug Kasparov telling people how easy it is to play Chess. So yes, let's make Chess harder because Kasparov.

https://media.tenor.com/images/f6a77f81b147edcc16062d690ec6bf17/tenor.gif



Now go and scrub yourself clean after exposing yourself to the great unwashed masses.

Okay but that is not how any fighting game ever in history has ever been balanced so that is a bad idea. You balance fighting games around tournament winners - its how its been done since fighting games were a thing. If you don't do that, no one takes the game seriously, which means no one supports it competitively, which means no new players become interested in the game, which means the game withers away until it dies.

Also your analogies just get funnier and funnier.

You're also completely missing the point. I agree Nobushi isn't great in 1v1. That's not what anyone is talking about. She is absolutely monstrous in 2v2 and 4v4 though, and that means she needs a 1v1 buff and a 2v2/4v4 nerf.

Blasto95
06-16-2017, 07:34 PM
You are smug so how would you not sound it?

The key point, which you touch on, is that people here are not remotely like you. What you get wrong is that you believe that automatically makes them inferior, stupid and not worth listening to. Their opinions are automatically invalid and their experiences mean nothing. Even when they outnumber you massively and so, actually represent the game and it's balance far more accurately than you do. You represent nothing.

Even if we accept that anyone beneath your lofty superior level cannot understand the game (would just like to add at this point how repulsive I think people like you with this attitude are) then again, bearing in mind that they massively outnumber you and actually represent the game and what happens in it in a way you can never do, the game needs to be balanced around them. They are the players. They are the game.

You are basically a smug version of Beethoven telling people how easy it is to play the piano. A smug Picasso telling people how easy it is to paint. A smug Kasparov telling people how easy it is to play Chess. So yes, let's make Chess harder because Kasparov.

https://media.tenor.com/images/f6a77f81b147edcc16062d690ec6bf17/tenor.gif



Now go and scrub yourself clean after exposing yourself to the great unwashed masses.

Again...they are not asking for these heroes to be nerfed directly in a way that would severely impact the majority of players. OP even mentioned how Nobushi would be getting a buff along with other Samurai. And I can imagine they are really fearful of a competitive scene where its Nobushi or bust. Theres plenty of ways to nerf a character especially for a competitive level where most people would never notice there was a nerf to begin with.

And these 2 guys are certainly being a lot less hostile than some others in this thread and are getting blasted for voicing their opinions which happen to be right from their experience.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 07:39 PM
Just ignore these so-called competitive players. They can continue to blow smoke up each other's *** for all I care.



Get off your high horse will you. So everyone that posts here is automatically a scrub low-tier player huh? Piss off with your 'high-level' ****. It doesn't exist! High level in this game is nothing more than a contest where whoever can use those most broken hero/turtle the best/abuse the most exploits, wins.

I said people here aren't competitive because people literally in this thread are saying stuff like "bearing in mind that they massively outnumber you and actually represent the game and what happens in it in a way you can never do, the game needs to be balanced around them. They are the players. They are the game." which implies the game should be balanced for casual players, which is a perfectly fine view to have but uh...yeah, I stand by what I said. People here are not competitive at all.

Existentialmeme
06-16-2017, 07:40 PM
OP nice thread, but yeah posting it on here really doesn't work...
Reading your post I can tell you're a competitive player, knowing how to effectively use unlocks and locking onto different characters to make an effective attack.

Most people on here are casual players and probably haven't thought of using these kind of tactics, myself included.
Although I do sometimes use lock on switch to effective deal with ganks, but not to the level that you do.

Just commenting to give some support, a lot of characters can be strong in the right hands, but I guess to majority of people Nobushi is not as good as you think, I can't say much because I've only used her a little.

Gonna try some of the stuff you mentioned tho, thanks :)

Edit: The unlock things also might not be what the devs intended, so there's also that

Gray360UK
06-16-2017, 07:52 PM
I said people here aren't competitive because people literally in this thread are saying stuff like "bearing in mind that they massively outnumber you and actually represent the game and what happens in it in a way you can never do, the game needs to be balanced around them. They are the players. They are the game." which implies the game should be balanced for casual players, which is a perfectly fine view to have but uh...yeah, I stand by what I said. People here are not competitive at all.

No you said it because you are smug. You said it before the comment you are quoting as a reason for you saying it ... :rolleyes:

Nothing is implied btw. I am quite happy to spell out that the game should not be balanced around people with their head as far up their own arse as you. People who believe the world revolves around them and they know better than everyone else. The 'everyone else' that you look down on is the playerbase, you are not. At the end of the day, if things are done to please you and they do not please the playerbase, then (more) people will stop playing the game. You think balancing around people like you is working out well so far in terms of how happy the community is with the state of the game?

All those people you look down on are the ones that decide whether the game is a success or not. It's Ubisofts call, but if they want to suck up to people like you who couldn't give a rats arse about the community and the general playability of the game then it will be their loss.

Blasto95
06-16-2017, 07:57 PM
No you said it because you are smug. You said it before the comment you are quoting as a reason for you saying it ... :rolleyes:

Nothing is implied btw. I am quite happy to spell out that the game should not be balanced around people with their head as far up their own arse as you. People who believe the world revolves around them and they know better than everyone else. The 'everyone else' that you look down on is the playerbase, you are not. At the end of the day, if things are done to please you and they do not please the playerbase, then (more) people will stop playing the game. You think balancing around people like you is working out well so far in terms of how happy the community is with the state of the game?

All those people you look down on are the ones that decide whether the game is a success or not. It's Ubisofts call, but if they want to suck up to people like you who couldn't give a rats arse about the community and the general playability of the game then it will be their loss.

Just go ahead and keep ignoring all my valid points lol. Did they ever say they wanted Nobushi balanced for everyone? They want it balanced for competitive, which means PLENTY aspects of her kit can be left untouched for the majority, in fact they could continue buffing her and it would possibly not effect her at all for competitive play. Vice versa, fix her at a competitive level and the 98% would potentially not even notice a change

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 08:01 PM
No you said it because you are smug. You said it before the comment you are quoting as a reason for you saying it ... :rolleyes:

Nothing is implied btw. I am quite happy to spell out that the game should not be balanced around people with their head as far up their own arse as you. People who believe the world revolves around them and they know better than everyone else. The 'everyone else' that you look down on is the playerbase, you are not. At the end of the day, if things are done to please you and they do not please the playerbase, then (more) people will stop playing the game. You think balancing around people like you is working out well so far in terms of how happy the community is with the state of the game?


Its a little ironic you think I don't care about the community when in fact balancing for tournament-level players is how you actually create and retain a community for a fighting game. Its what all major fighting games do. They actually straight up hired FG professionals for SFV. You get people interested in your game if there is a "scene" to the game, or there are notable people who direct traffic to the game. If you suddenly got FG pros pouring into For Honor, do you seriously think the game wouldn't grow massively? Of course it would. The problem is, these people think For Honor is a joke of a game because balance is not done in accordance with tournament placers, so they'd never be here anyway.

This game can be a casual game and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but its clearly not what Ubisoft wants, with the implementation of Ranked Mode, the callouts for Tournaments on Warrior's Den, the flying out of tournament winners to their headquarters to discuss balance, etc. Ubisoft most likely wants a competitive fighting game.


It's Ubisofts call, but if they want to suck up to people like you who couldn't give a rats arse about the community

And please, I've done more for this community and care about it more than you ever will.

That_guy44
06-16-2017, 08:21 PM
I refuse to acknowledge this tournament level perspective. Tournament club more like. A lot of these tournaments go under the radar and nobody even knows about it. Until Ubisoft puts in a world tournament mode like Fifa, everyone is a casual. Myself included. I'm not saying there are folks that don't take this game seriously and aren't good, but after watching Ubisoft invite some pretty bad streamers for season 2, I've lost trust in folks claiming tournament level status. I have suspicion that once ranked is included, greag players will pop out of nowhere and the now elite may not seem so elite.

I do believe Nobushi is pretty strong in 4v4. I don't have enough character knowledge to say if she is the best or not currently. I don't think she is hot stuff in 2v2 though. It's pretty easy to block her attacks if she's trying to gank, and as long as you have a competent teammate, she won't have the time to gank in the first place.

Blasto95
06-16-2017, 08:31 PM
I refuse to acknowledge this tournament level perspective. Tournament club more like. A lot of these tournaments go under the radar and nobody even knows about it. Until Ubisoft puts in a world tournament mode like Fifa, everyone is a casual. Myself included. I'm not saying there are folks that don't take this game seriously and aren't good, but after watching Ubisoft invite some pretty bad streamers for season 2, I've lost trust in folks claiming tournament level status. I have suspicion that once ranked is included, greag players will pop out of nowhere and the now elite may not seem so elite.

I do believe Nobushi is pretty strong in 4v4. I don't have enough character knowledge to say if she is the best or not currently. I don't think she is hot stuff in 2v2 though. It's pretty easy to block her attacks if she's trying to gank, and as long as you have a competent teammate, she won't have the time to gank in the first place.

I dont think the current elite players will mind at all running into new even better talent. They play at a level where they just want to get better themselves and believe they can.
That Ubisoft invite for some players I think was a joke. One of the streamers even said he was horrible. They brought on talent and personalities. Some with a combination of both, but not every person there was talented and others were simply not fun or exciting to watch. Clearly Ubisoft wanted to bring entertainment for that event, not full on competitiveness.
Nobushi is strong in 4v4 and just as good or even better in 2v2. Ive watched enough not to know why she's that good, but just to see her in 90% of competitive matches tells you something.
I do know one thing. Because of Nobushis range on her ZA, your teammate has to either just attempt a GB, or the Nobushi has to notice someone attempting to GB her teammate, and bam free nonpunishable ZA. Im sure my thought process is wrong in someway but I think im getting the jist of it.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 08:32 PM
I refuse to acknowledge this tournament level perspective. Tournament club more like. A lot of these tournaments go under the radar and nobody even knows about it. Until Ubisoft puts in a world tournament mode like Fifa, everyone is a casual. Myself included. I'm not saying there are folks that don't take this game seriously and aren't good, but after watching Ubisoft invite some pretty bad streamers for season 2, I've lost trust in folks claiming tournament level status. I have suspicion that once ranked is included, greag players will pop out of nowhere and the now elite may not seem so elite.

I do believe Nobushi is pretty strong in 4v4. I don't have enough character knowledge to say if she is the best or not currently. I don't think she is hot stuff in 2v2 though. It's pretty easy to block her attacks if she's trying to gank, and as long as you have a competent teammate, she won't have the time to gank in the first place.

Basing your opinion of tournament players in a tournament that was held almost entirely for publicity isn't the wisest decision. Only a handful of players were there because they were actually good. There have been over a hundred actual open tournaments where anyone could enter over the months, and the same names keep popping up on the ends.

There probably are some unknown excellent people that for one reason or another have decided to not enter any tournaments for months and months, but they will be at a severe disadvantage to the people with months of tournament-level practice.

Better to bring this to attention now, because when ranked drops and people make 2v2 / 4v4 teams, there will be a whole new slew of "Nobushi is completely broken in these modes" posts, I absolutely guarantee it.

Antonioj26
06-16-2017, 08:46 PM
It's a real shame that a well thought out post is shouted down with no sort of actual argument or counter point. He's given examples, links, damage values, and tourney results. He's even acknowledged that she's lacking in 1v1, but still no sort of discussion can be had in this place. It always becomes an argument over grammar or cherry picking someone's wording. Great post OP, some interesting stuff.

That_guy44
06-16-2017, 08:59 PM
I'm super ****ing glad I'm not working on the balancing issues. For honor runs differently on pc and console. Then 4v4 and duel modes are completely different as well.

These open tournaments have poor advertising. I wouldn't even know to where to look. I'd guess reddit, but I never spend time on reddit. What are the sizes of said tournaments? And is it just the same folks competing? Right now im getting the vibe of of championships in boxing. They have different leagues with different weights and competition size. It's incredibly easy to dodge fighters too. I think a centralized ranking system will do good for For honor.

The folks at For Honor also need to choose which side they want to go with. Will they choose competition or casual? Longetivy lies in competition but the money lies in casual. If they piss off the casuals, the money will stop coming in. This may seem fine for hardcore players, until Ubisoft pulls support for lack of funds. The casual players aren't in the wrong either. They have spent massive cash to make for honor what it is today. The game wouldn't be anywhere near as big without casuals buying copies. I don't know what path the devs will go but I don't think they can hold hands with both. I don't see a way it will work.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 09:05 PM
I'm super ****ing glad I'm not working on the balancing issues. For honor runs differently on pc and console. Then 4v4 and duel modes are completely different as well.

These open tournaments have poor advertising. I wouldn't even know to where to look. I'd guess reddit, but I never spend time on reddit. What are the sizes of said tournaments? And is it just the same folks competing? Right now im getting the vibe of of championships in boxing. They have different leagues with different weights and competition size. It's incredibly easy to dodge fighters too. I think a centralized ranking system will do good for For honor.

The folks at For Honor also need to choose which side they want to go with. Will they choose competition or casual? Longetivy lies in competition but the money lies in casual. If they piss off the casuals, the money will stop coming in. This may seem fine for hardcore players, until Ubisoft pulls support for lack of funds. The casual players aren't in the wrong either. They have spent massive cash to make for honor what it is today. The game wouldn't be anywhere near as big without casuals buying copies. I don't know what path the devs will go but I don't think they can hold hands with both. I don't see a way it will work.

Both money and longevity lie in competition. How do casual players of this game earn the game money? They already bought it, and they're probably not buying steel. The only way they make more money for sure is if they sell more copies of the game, which would happen if the competitive scene raised publicity about the game itself.

It's also not hard to find these tournaments. Five seconds on the competitive subreddit and you have a list right there, with Discords to join for even more information. It may seem like they're super underground or hard to get to, but that just means you haven't tried looking, which means you probably aren't really dedicated enough to be a tournament player regardless. (Not you in particular, just overall)

Draghmar
06-16-2017, 09:12 PM
Both money and longevity lie in competition. How do casual players of this game earn the game money? They already bought it, and they're probably not buying steel. The only way they make more money for sure is if they sell more copies of the game, which would happen if the competitive scene raised publicity about the game itself.
I think you have no idea how game company works and how to sell games and how to make money in a long turn. What you describing here are some archaic way of selling games. All the things they doing weekly basis and for seasons are to make money. Not to please us. Just to make money. Unfortunately all I can tell you is that you need to believe me that this is much more lucrative then pleasing 2% of playerbase - those are good for PR and that's it.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 09:17 PM
I think you have no idea how game company works and how to sell games and how to make money in a long turn. What you describing here are some archaic way of selling games. All the things they doing weekly basis and for seasons are to make money. Not to please us. Just to make money. Unfortunately all I can tell you is that you need to believe me that this is much more lucrative then pleasing 2% of playerbase - those are good for PR and that's it.

No ****, that's all any company ever does. The point of a business is to make money. I'm saying, they would actually be more successful and have a better future if they focused solely on competitive. There is a reason Street Figher still exists today.

Utopie.
06-16-2017, 09:23 PM
Better to bring this to attention now, because when ranked drops and people make 2v2 / 4v4 teams, there will be a whole new slew of "Nobushi is completely broken in these modes" posts, I absolutely guarantee it.

I really really hope Ubiosft acts on that before releasing ranked because that is exaclty what will happen. Strange enough that the community has the chance to see in every 2v2 tourney that there is a big issue and still the forum acts like their blind.

This rection - to a good tourney player who actually took the effort to explain a BIG problem in High level and competetive play - shows why so many good players dont post here anymore.

Draghmar
06-16-2017, 09:28 PM
No ****, that's all any company ever does. The point of a business is to make money. I'm saying, they would actually be more successful and have a better future if they focused solely on competitive. There is a reason Street Figher still exists today.
There are plenty of fighting games on the market. How many of them have been successful? Only a few and the reason is not the competitive aspect but money behind them. Because money gives marketing and PR and force brand to stay on the surface. Also with games like Street Fighter there's something with nostalgia.
You're right - the point of any business is to make money. But your idea of how to make it is flawed. Game companies doesn't make games only to sell them this days. They have to focus on both selling boxes in a long term (but remember that each month bring value down) and by charging by some additions like DLC or in-game stuff. And those things are bought by majority of players. Not some small elite base. That's focusing entirely on them would be against logic. Those who are known because of their skill or for something else (like people known for being known) are great for PR, for making game much more known to those who actually spend money.

Y_Shrewditch
06-16-2017, 10:04 PM
As for how to fix this situation -- I have no amazing fixes. The easiest ones, for now, would be to make zone attack 24 damage and to adjust sidewinder hitbox so that it actually matches the animation. I believe unlocked attacks aren't easy to fix, otherwise they'd already be gone, but of course that has to go as well. Nobushi lacks a bit in some areas in 1v1, like hidden stance and kick, but it's important that we don't just buff her without nerfing at least the zone attack.

And if anyone doesn't believe me -- I'm including VODs of the last three big 2v2 tournaments with the best players in the game. Hint: there are Nobushis in almost all of the teams that did well.


I think you have a point about using 'professional' players as reference for balancing. But I skimmed through the videos and all I saw were Nobushi's dying. And if all teams have Nobushi, it's not a real surprise the winning team is one that has one too. She's a zoning character, which means she gets to hit multiple people at once, which, to my unprofessional mind, would make her a good pick to have in a team fight. No rocket science there.

I think a reason why some people get upset with your post, is as you mentioned, she's a bit lacking in the 1v1, and you're naming the few things that she has going for her. So it seems it's those things you want to nerf.

As to your proposed fixes; it seems to me, judging from the information you provided yourself, that Nobushi players benefit from a number of bugs and exploits, like revenge stacking and unlock tech. Which, if I understand correctly, is what your proposal is all about addressing, and should have little to no effect on her 1v1s, or her abilities there.

ScottJund
06-16-2017, 10:24 PM
I think you have a point about using 'professional' players as reference for balancing. But I skimmed through the videos and all I saw were Nobushi's dying. And if all teams have Nobushi, it's not a real surprise the winning team is one that has one too. She's a zoning character, which means she gets to hit multiple people at once, which, to my unprofessional mind, would make her a good pick to have in a team fight. No rocket science there.

I think a reason why some people get upset with your post, is as you mentioned, she's a bit lacking in the 1v1, and you're naming the few things that she has going for her. So it seems it's those things you want to nerf.

As to your proposed fixes; it seems to me, judging from the information you provided yourself, that Nobushi players benefit from a number of bugs and exploits, like revenge stacking and unlock tech. Which, if I understand correctly, is what your proposal is all about addressing, and should have little to no effect on her 1v1s, or her abilities there.

Really the biggest problem is her Zone and the complete lack of giving a **** the Nobushi has to do in regards to her teammates while doing it. She can cleave herself to full health in Dominion, and negate any guard break / punish / any attack at all from almost anywhere. This is a lot in part due to friendly fire being so low, but basically tournaments boil down to Nobushi Zone attack spam fests because it is the safest and most efficient thing to do.

Nexo.C
06-16-2017, 11:18 PM
I think you have no idea how game company works and how to sell games and how to make money in a long turn. What you describing here are some archaic way of selling games. All the things they doing weekly basis and for seasons are to make money. Not to please us. Just to make money. Unfortunately all I can tell you is that you need to believe me that this is much more lucrative then pleasing 2% of playerbase - those are good for PR and that's it.

PR is money. Most popular streamers are competitive. So competition is money. They all have a fanbase and their opinion is based around their 'Star' most of the time.
So if streamers are leaving because of the lack of balance around competitive play, you can be sure their fanbase is leaving too. PR and Streaming are a huge machinery to make money and building a playerbase unfortenately. Honestly i dont like these guys. Especially the For Honor Streamers. They're abusing the **** out of characters and exploits to stay competitive with the excuse 'well, we have to do it because everybody does it. And we want to point out whats wrong with the game.'. They can still do it with their reach and point it out and dont abuse all of this shyte.
Most of them are right with things they point out but i think their attitude and the way they spread their opinions are a huge reason why this community is a very toxic terrain. They are opinionmakers and some of them think they are revolutinaries or something.
Saw the OP live on a tournament stream playing Nobushi (I think it was him) and how he destroyed his way to the finals with zones in 2vs2. I also read alot about Nobushi being OP in teammodes.
I think they are right. But i also think that effects non of the playerbase. Its only a problem for this elite-golfclub-like players.
But as I said, they have huge impact on Players joining and leaving, they make the PR. So, it could be healthy to balance the game around competiveness.
( My personal view is nonetheless that For Honor will never be ready for competitive play. They would have to balance Duels seperately from Teammodes and PC seperately from consoles, which will never happen)

Draghmar
06-16-2017, 11:59 PM
PR is money. Most popular streamers are competitive. So competition is money. They all have a fanbase and their opinion is based around their 'Star' most of the time.
That would be true if most 'known' streamers/youtubers/etc would advertise for free...which of course is not true. They eat money this or another way. If not through tournaments then directly from company that tries to sell their product. And this means their opinion should not be considered as a oracle.
BTW I really wonder how much naive people are to believe in everything that is shown them...

I agree that 'elite' abuses everything they can but that's their problem...or yours? From what I've seen when elites were talking with each other it looks like using bugs to win is consider normal thing. So it's this 'elite' mentality that's the biggest problem here. It's like saying that every sportsmen has to use doping because others are using it. I found it funny to see how much they try to sell their tournaments as a something 'pro' when all they all do is constantly making safest moves there are.

I know that FH have many smaller and bigger issues. But I don't agree with narrow minded view of some people. I really hate elitism and arrogance in any aspect of life. And unfortunately many pro players tends to fly toward one of both because they think they know more...and that's not true. Even what was written here about ways for company to make money shows exactly that.

Gray360UK
06-17-2017, 12:07 AM
I found it funny to see how much they try to sell their tournaments as something 'pro' when all they all do is constantly making safest moves there are.



Exactly. Smug elitists blowing their own trumpets while belittling everyone else ... and then their 'high level' play that the rest of us mere mortals can't even understand turns out to be spamming a zone attack. :rolleyes:

ScottJund
06-17-2017, 01:00 AM
Exactly. Smug elitists blowing their own trumpets while belittling everyone else ... and then their 'high level' play that the rest of us mere mortals can't even understand turns out to be spamming a zone attack. :rolleyes:

For the record, you got super triggered when I said you weren't a competitive player, which you aren't because you aren't entering tournaments. I never called you bad, or "low tier trash" as you somehow quoted me as saying. You're kind of just freaking out over nothing.

Gray360UK
06-17-2017, 01:24 AM
For the record, you got super triggered when I said you weren't a competitive player, which you aren't because you aren't entering tournaments. I never called you bad, or "low tier trash" as you somehow quoted me as saying. You're kind of just freaking out over nothing.

That wasn't quite what you said or how you said it now was it? You were condascending to the entire community on this forum. Your smug comments weren't addressed solely at me either. If you want a re-cap, for the record, here you go ...


The people here are not even remotely competitive [...] the same people [...] that don't really understand the game at higher level

Followed, hilariously a few posts later by ...


but basically tournaments boil down to Nobushi Zone attack spam fests

So hard to understand. Such high level play. Please, teach us how to zone attack, we want to be competitive and win tournaments just like you! Then we can be smug and post how no one is able to understand our high level play too, right?

:rolleyes:

Pro tip - if tournaments and 'high level' play are what makes you so special, you might not want to so expertly destroy the idea they have anything to do with skill the next time you post ;)

ScottJund
06-17-2017, 01:55 AM
Jesus Christ why do I bother. You're right Gray, enjoy your game. See you in a month when ranked 4s all involve Nobushi and everyone is *****ing about her.

Moondyne_MC
06-17-2017, 02:45 AM
Also a Nobu player since launch here.

While I firmly agree that Nobu is actually much better than most give her credit for, I really don't see how you can claim a character is "busted" when so many of your points are about unlock tech.

That's not a fault of the character, it's a fault of the game itself which needs fixing.

Her zone, while the most damaging in the game, isn't all that safe (and surprisingly hard to cancel) if you're not relying on exploits. Same with sidewinder and dash attacks.

And sure, if you get a ******y player who just turtles up and punishes with zone every safe opportunity they can, you're gonna have a bad time, but again this is a game problem more than a character problem. Hell, I fought a Lawb the other day who never launched a single attack, or even moved, outside of GB's and parries. Effective certainly, but clearly not the way the game was meant to be played.

A good Nobu who uses their whole kit without exploits can be a great asset to a team, but is definitely not the Goddess you describe her as.

SnugglesIV
06-17-2017, 03:45 AM
Nobushi is garbage tier right now. her zone is her only powerful tool. expect it and guard accordingly.

There's an exploit in the game which makes Nobusihi's zone impossible to block UNLESS you are already blocking in that direction. A lot of this post seems to boil down to "exploits/unlock tech is bad and needs to be fixed."

Draghmar
06-17-2017, 11:59 AM
Jesus Christ why do I bother. You're right Gray, enjoy your game. See you in a month when ranked 4s all involve Nobushi and everyone is *****ing about her.
People will always find bugs and exploit them because of their narrow minded mentality. Sorry for bringing this reality to you. There was Warden all over the place before. And PK. And Shugoki. Now it's Nobushi+(mostly)Warlord. What we will next day? Maybe some of you will find another exploit that gives you free/safe/cheesy move to win another tournament. It's like many people said - it's bugs and people that use them that are problem here not the class itself. If flickering was more viable then everyone would play Orochi and spam this as hell (which they do actually but it's not as effective).

Edit: And why are you so angry? You thought you will come here with your elite attitude and everyone will agree with you instantly praying for the glory to be passed on them?

Ulrichvonbek111
06-17-2017, 04:30 PM
Nobushi is garbage tier right now. her zone is her only powerful tool. expect it and guard accordingly.

The Sisters of Death clan beg to differ as we have in our Temple Garden a mountain of preserved heads and skulks of our foes taken from the battlefield. 💮💮💮

kweassa1
06-17-2017, 05:21 PM
Most problems with Nobushi is only really associated with 1v1 scenarios.

Against multi-vs-one scenarios it's only natural the game's longest poleweapon has somewhat an advantage over others -- especially if its mid-zone in Dominion where she's basically inside her favorite element. Despite clear limitations even the Kensei is a surprisingly strong class in multi-vs-one scenarios. The advantage of reach tends to do that.

● inexperienced players spamming in ineffective attacks to feed free revenge mete
● revenge attack feat
● inexperienced players getting careless with attacks when ganking
● minions that feed her HP

..combine all of the above, and unless the gankers team has a strong disabler like a Lawb, Shug, Shib, Centurion in the mix a Nobushi player with strong defense who knows how to parry incoming off-target attacks will be popping revenge almost non-stop, will have careless off-target attackers parried and knocked down, and multiple of them being hit with ZA sweep which feeds more revenge meter. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Of course, any "unlock tech" abuse is subject to be grinded out of the game, and there's no excuse for this. But even when it is removed the Nobushi will still be inherently very strong in that scenario. Nob's always been the no.1 contender when we confine the fight to dominion + mid-zone + wide spaces with plenty of room to retreat.


Besides, even if that is Nob's strengths, the likelihood of anyone who fully understands that strength and utilizes it to the max is very low anyway. Average is average -- I see many Nob players in dominion who are exact opposite despite the Nob's strengths -- capable 1v1 fighters and yet, really has no clue how to be versatile in 1vX scenarios. Most people use the Nobushi like a female Kensei with a longer weapon anyway.

Jarl.Felix
06-17-2017, 06:17 PM
Of course it's op but kids needs this char to spam their zone attacks and have the feelings of a pro player. just deal with it.

Antonioj26
08-21-2017, 12:16 PM
Looking back now this thread is hilarious.

Droodlesaurus
08-21-2017, 01:03 PM
You guys realise the guy who posted this won the S3 tournament by using/abusing Nobushi. Also acknowledge the fact that he's not trying to get Ubi to nerf her, he wants them to fix the stuff that is broken, such as the unlock tech. (which he used to win the tournament) Even the CEO of For Honor came on stage and said 'You will have to change your playstyle soon'' followed by the most awkward handshake ever. Implying that it is most definitely NOT an intended move.

Antonioj26
08-21-2017, 01:06 PM
You guys realise the guy who posted this won the S3 tournament by using/abusing Nobushi. Also acknowledge the fact that he's not trying to get Ubi to nerf her, he wants them to fix the stuff that is broken, such as the unlock tech. (which he used to win the tournament) Even the CEO of For Honor came on stage and said 'You will have to change your playstyle soon'' followed by the most awkward handshake ever. Implying that it is most definitely NOT an intended move.

Look at the time stamps. This whole conversation happened long before the tournament which is why I said looking back this thread is hilarious.

Droodlesaurus
08-21-2017, 01:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awsxp65X6HU: skip to 1h 20min'ish. Honestly, this is quite a pathetic performance by Ubisoft lol. I'm so happy he went to the tournaments and won it by abusing a broken mechanic that has been known since forever. Much love from belguim Alernakin.

Droodlesaurus
08-21-2017, 01:08 PM
Didn't read all replies, just felt like adding some oil to the fire as i think this is absolutely pathetic from Ubisoft.

Patpuc
08-21-2017, 01:29 PM
I sort've like how she's average in 1v1 but great when out numbered. Maybe, just maybe? Dont gang up on her. Also zone attack from a nobushi when being ganked is predictable. Zone attack always goes to your left. Blocked there, keep your distance.

Antonioj26
08-21-2017, 02:23 PM
I sort've like how she's average in 1v1 but great when out numbered. Maybe, just maybe? Dont gang up on her. Also zone attack from a nobushi when being ganked is predictable. Zone attack always goes to your left. Blocked there, keep your distance.

So she gets to reign free or your buddy has to sit on the sidelines while you fight her 1v1? You say that about her zone, yet bandana who was fighting her 1v1 was getting hit by it constantly. As the OP said, if you unlock it comes out even faster than PKs zone.

MemoireStar
08-21-2017, 02:42 PM
So now I've read quite a bit in this thread and I gotta say I don't get where the problem is.

Try playing Nobushi without abusing glitches (aka. unlocking) and tell me again how OP she is. Once unlock is fixed Nobushi won't be "OP" anymore; just banning unlock ******** from tournaments would be a temporary solution aswell.
The only point where I agree with her being strong is when people stand exactly to your right, making the zone instant, but I'm sure this could just be fixed by changing the position where the ZA starts dealing damage.
And please don't start by comparing unlock tech to for example Smashbros mechanics that add depth to the game. Smashbros mechanics add depth because they don't break the game without being able to counter them, unlock does.

Patpuc
08-22-2017, 04:52 AM
If you read my comment you might of noticed that i said the nobushi zone attack is predicted when being GANKED. i said absolutely nothing about unlock tech in a 1v1 tournament. When i said it was predcited i meant OF COURSE A NOBUSHI IS GOING TO ZONE ATTACK WHEN BEING GANKED! IT'S THE FIRST THING THEY DO! I call it everytime. And when i said keep your distance i didn't mean sidelining and watching you team mates fight her, i meant don't be an idiot. If you're clearly incapable of ganking a player with the amount of centurians out there then keep your distance so you dont get hit and wait for the right time to strike.

Obviously unlock tech is a problem, im not denying that. I dont think anyone is, but i do enjoy thr fact that nobushi is at least good at something. Because God forbid a character do something another character cant do. LETS MAKE all the characters the same. Why not?

Centurian is good at ganking players
Shinobi is good at quickly closing the gap, quickly retreating
Warlock is good at moving players into a different position
and nobushi is good at survning an gank
i think its great that different classes do different things. Some SHOULD be better than others in certain situations, other wise it would be way too reptitive.

Baggin_
08-22-2017, 05:47 AM
I like how he made this post two months ago and then proved it right lol.