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Stevepine
07-20-2004, 10:58 AM
Am I the only person who thinks its stupid to have removed the Swastikas from German vessels?
( I know that this is manditory in some European countries ) BUT....
I am a history graduate and will soon be becoming a full time History teacher.
My opinion is that seperation of the German Navy from the Ideology and Symbols of the Third Reich is just silly as well as not being realistic. Please do understand - Im not saying that all members of the Kreigsmarine were pin wearing members of the National Socialist Party and I know this has been dicussed on the forum once before ....to an extent

however, I think it takes away from the atmosphere of the period - by this I mean It stops us from remembering we are actually meant to be sailing during the 1940's... So therefore It is my hope that a mod will be made to put this right when the game is released. Maybe stupid games like Wolfenstein are partially to blame for all this? what's your opinion?

Stevepine
07-20-2004, 10:58 AM
Am I the only person who thinks its stupid to have removed the Swastikas from German vessels?
( I know that this is manditory in some European countries ) BUT....
I am a history graduate and will soon be becoming a full time History teacher.
My opinion is that seperation of the German Navy from the Ideology and Symbols of the Third Reich is just silly as well as not being realistic. Please do understand - Im not saying that all members of the Kreigsmarine were pin wearing members of the National Socialist Party and I know this has been dicussed on the forum once before ....to an extent

however, I think it takes away from the atmosphere of the period - by this I mean It stops us from remembering we are actually meant to be sailing during the 1940's... So therefore It is my hope that a mod will be made to put this right when the game is released. Maybe stupid games like Wolfenstein are partially to blame for all this? what's your opinion?

Monkeywho
07-20-2004, 11:13 AM
Dear Steve:

Although the German Version, and certain other countries, due to legal laws in their lands will have the Swastika removed it is my understanding the the US version will leave the swastikas on the German vessels.

As a person with an interest in history I agree with you, but I also can understand why some would be utterly opposed to ever seeing the symbol again. I think it is best to have an option where the user can choose whether to use historical symbols or not. Obviously in countries where the swastika is banned they would just be given an alternative symbol.

Monkeywho
07-20-2004, 11:17 AM
Add-on:

I also think that if we FORGET or IGNORE history that we are doomed to repeat it. I am sorry to say, but TOO MANY students of today just simply do not have an understanding or an appreciation for history. Yes, sometimes humans beings can do some REALLY UGLY and awful and EVIL things, but if just try to pretend it didn't happen or try to even understand why and then how we can prevent it from happening in the future then we are really hurting ourselves. Just my two cents on the underlying issues I believe exist with dealing with sad chapters in human history.

hippy-dude
07-20-2004, 11:56 AM
i totaly agree, besides it's something the Nazis would of done try to change history because thay didn't belive in it. And you just can't say it never happend beacause it did so i don't even want an option for it i just want realism in the game otherwise i will not buy this game if it is not historicly accurate. Does anyone know if the swatstica is banned in the uk

Peace dude (LOL) i love annoying hippys

Xanthippus
07-20-2004, 12:24 PM
I'm fairly sure there is no law against it in the UK.

In regards to the entire question, i agree that it should be shown, although to the vast majority of people it will mean next to nothing though. Being historically realistic for the sake of history itself is fine, but just seeing an image will not suddenly inform people as to the meaning behind it, the great evil that is attributed to the flag can never be fully understood by those that have not lived under it.

sdcruz
07-21-2004, 04:32 AM
Gentlemen,

For you information, the SWASTIKA is an ANCIENT Sanskirt (INDIAN) symbol meaning life force, rebirth, divine energy - dating back at least 2000 years. The germans used it for their evil purposes!

Regards

Xanthippus
07-21-2004, 09:35 AM
The Swastika isn't an ancient Indian symbol exactly, it's been reversed or something i believe, but i accept its certainly based on the Sanskirt image.

bertgang
07-21-2004, 09:41 AM
Right, is the reversed image of an ancient symbol.
But nobody think to Sanskirt when looking a nazi one.

Monkeywho
07-21-2004, 09:47 AM
At the Field Museum there is a Tibetan exhibit. . on some of their items there is a swastika, but it was a symbol of fortune. Of course now that symbol is seen as being strongly linked to the Nazi's that we forget that it still means other things to some people.

HeibgesU999
07-21-2004, 06:31 PM
I think it is possible to honor the memory of the German soldiers, without using the dishonourable emblem of the Nazi Party. And to me, it will not affect the simulation in the least.

Stevepine
07-22-2004, 01:21 AM
I am currently finishing a year of teaching English In South Korea, ( Im British ) and over here many of the Budhist temples have the reversed Symbol all over the place and its seen as a symbol of strength through peace. For most Koreans its just a religious symbol and some of them dont even know about its similarity to the Nazi sign - SO let's not confuse the two.

delphin-U190
07-22-2004, 04:02 AM
Just an research about the swastika in google and :

I found this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika)

Joe the Killerman
07-22-2004, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HeibgesU999:
I think it is possible to honor the memory of the German soldiers, without using the dishonourable emblem of the Nazi Party. And to me, it will not affect the simulation in the least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree totally with you. I'm playing the role of a submariner because I admire the will, seamanship and determination of those KL, not because I'm a neo nazi. In fact, I feel bad when I've to sink a troop transport. Even sinking a destroyer should be awful -cannot stop thinking about all those young lives, wasted in the sea.

Allowing nazis simbols would mean that neo-nazi groups could use this game as propaganda. After all, it showns the battle of a german U-boot. I remember that recently, a comic about german history had to be retired because neonazi groups were using it as propaganda! Hitler took a populist politic, doing great efect maneouvers in all fields. You need to stop and study the conditions in germany to realize the weak points of nazi economy. Is not too evident, neither, what happened to the oposition (they did some nice jokes about nazis!). So I feel all right maning this ship and being unable to see swastikas -btw, what about Iron Crosses? This simbol is german and is respectable! An small change, wich should make sense to everyone. Later, skins could be make to put swasticas for the people wanting it. But german players would have a simbol they can identify!

Btw, nazis inverted the Swastika. The one used by koreans and other people is the RIGHT one! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

The meaning changes from religion to religion, but is quite common simbol, you can find it even in celtic routes.

Das Panzerkunst!

bertgang
07-22-2004, 06:23 AM
I totally agree.
Iron Crosses, please.

hippy-dude
07-22-2004, 02:50 PM
It is idiotic to remove the Swatsticka and put the iron cross in its place because the Swatsticka was the flag og Germany at the time and don't forget many people died fighting or what they belived in on the german side to and their opinions need to be represented. Just think do we remove the union jack and put something in its place.No. so it is stupid changing flags.

Peace dude (LOL) i love annoying hippys

TASKFORCE1x1
07-22-2004, 03:08 PM
I hate that. Thats why things are screwed up in this world. Erasing an icon does nothing more than strike curiousity with the people who want to know why something is missing. Ban porn and people want it more. Things like that. Its immature to censor in my opinion. A good example is car accidents. Most people in America are shielded from the images of what it looks like after a DUI deadly accident or speeding accident. They mix TV with pleasure here and people are desensitized to what TV shows. I have a CDL license and when I learned about driving a truck I was required to see what happens when a truck has an accident. The images werent pretty and made you think more about what could happen. It makes people become more aware and careful when they see the reality behind such accidents. Censorship is borderline forced ignorance. Who has a right to censor what we see. Makes people only want to explore,experiment, and do it more. I've heard of countries that have areas where you can go and shoot up drugs without being arrested. I think its in Holland? Excuse if I offend correct if I'm wrong please. Anyways I saw it on some legal channel on cable and that country didnt have a huge drug problem but guess what WE DO! I WONDER WHY!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Keep on Smiling'

hippy-dude
07-22-2004, 03:11 PM
totaly agrees if u try and make people forget it might happen again

Peace dude (LOL) i love annoying hippys

Pappy55
07-22-2004, 03:39 PM
Iagree hippy-dude, Joseph Stalin was jy=ust as bad as Hitler and he sent millions to there deaths as well but the Red Star and hammer and sicle os not censorded from ww2 games so why should the Swastica?

no disrespect here but the Allied nations arnt exactly free from evil doings.. Us British arnt exactly iniocent in history, America has done there fare share too..

I have seen the swastica in buddest tenples, its an ancient symbol that has nothing to do with the nazies except it was the symbol on there banner.

Here you go people some edecuational information:
http://www.hostultra.com/~Exidor/Swastika/Swastika.html

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Pappy55/usig.jpg
"They won't catch us this time! Not this time! They haven't spotted us! No, they're all snoring in their bunks! Or, you know what? They're drinking at the bar, celebrating our sinking! Not yet, my friends. Not yet!"

hippy-dude
07-22-2004, 03:48 PM
besides it is quite a nice looking flag

Peace dude (LOL) i love annoying hippys