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Bull_dog_
03-28-2004, 01:51 PM
The threads regarding the Lightnings dispersion and vibration are taking most of the energy around here and most are pretty satisfied with the FM, myself included. I just perused the book "Fork tailed devils"... I really liked that book because it talked about the goods and bads...

Some observations on the J&L...torque is too much. That is the understatement of the day because there is supposed to be no torque but I understand the flight modelling won't allow it...so how about toning it down and make stalls very easy to recover from since they aren't supposed to happen at all... from the book...it talks about how the later model Lightnings were the best fighter to be in down low cause they could turn...had excellent speed, but most importantly so easy to fly on the edge...so much so that they dominated down low at tree top heights...

The book goes on to explain how different and superior the L model was with its dive breaks, increased roll rate and turning ability. In the accounts of the author, there was no plane that could shake it once it latched onto your tail... I think the FB version is pretty close but the roll rate is too slow I think... The L model was as different from early model lightnings as the E model 109s is from the K...totally different planes.

If Oleg weren't to change a thing...I'd be satisfied but I do believe some tweaking and fine tuning is in order...the stall characteristics and roll rates in particular.

Bull_dog_
03-28-2004, 01:51 PM
The threads regarding the Lightnings dispersion and vibration are taking most of the energy around here and most are pretty satisfied with the FM, myself included. I just perused the book "Fork tailed devils"... I really liked that book because it talked about the goods and bads...

Some observations on the J&L...torque is too much. That is the understatement of the day because there is supposed to be no torque but I understand the flight modelling won't allow it...so how about toning it down and make stalls very easy to recover from since they aren't supposed to happen at all... from the book...it talks about how the later model Lightnings were the best fighter to be in down low cause they could turn...had excellent speed, but most importantly so easy to fly on the edge...so much so that they dominated down low at tree top heights...

The book goes on to explain how different and superior the L model was with its dive breaks, increased roll rate and turning ability. In the accounts of the author, there was no plane that could shake it once it latched onto your tail... I think the FB version is pretty close but the roll rate is too slow I think... The L model was as different from early model lightnings as the E model 109s is from the K...totally different planes.

If Oleg weren't to change a thing...I'd be satisfied but I do believe some tweaking and fine tuning is in order...the stall characteristics and roll rates in particular.

El Turo
03-28-2004, 02:02 PM
Anecdotal evidence means absolutely squat.

Sorry, but it's true. You can find pilot accounts and recollections that all say "their" ride was the best in the sky and could beat up everyone else's dad.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

CaptainGelo
03-28-2004, 02:24 PM
BUmp for another p38 tread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif

CHDT
03-28-2004, 02:47 PM
http://homepage.eircom.net/~frontacs/WBStored/P38PilotComments.html

If I was to differentiate between the 38 and the 51, I would say the 38's qualities shone best when it was low and slow. Even a pilot with limited hours in the cockpit could have absolute confidence in it and so push it right into the stall with no fear, even at treetop height.


That's clear enought for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,

CaptainGelo
03-28-2004, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~frontacs/WBStored/P38PilotComments.html

If I was to differentiate between the 38 and the 51, I would say the 38's qualities shone best when it was low and slow. Even a pilot with limited hours in the cockpit could have absolute confidence in it and so push it right into the stall with no fear, even at treetop height.


That's clear enought for me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cheers,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WEP?!!?!?!? WHY dont we have WEP in p38 in AEP?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif

CHDT
03-28-2004, 02:59 PM
Some more infos:


"GG:We'd been used to flying lightweight aircraft and the P-38 was very heavy. When I first climbed into the cockpit, it felt like a mack truck. But after 3 hours, I loved it. The P-38 was the most aerodynamically stable plane we'd ever had. It could achieve the altitude and had the firepower we needed to damage enemy lines. "

BuzzU
03-28-2004, 03:22 PM
One thing we know, and even Oleg should admit too. The P-38 should have no torque effect. So, it should be set as low as FB will allow. Is that the case Oleg? If it is, then we have no complaints.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

Bull_dog_
03-28-2004, 04:40 PM
I don't feel like the torque is the lowest...the spit seems better maybe some of those 109's that can hang on a prop... hard telling.

I do know this.. when you get in a stall you often can't recover in a 38 and that just isn't right. should recover easily.

On line, I was coming up on a Ki 84 (my least favorite plane to fly against) and he snap rolled to the left and turned around me...got on my six in about 10 seconds and killed me....in a real L model, I would have been able to roll with him and get at least one shot at him... although one shot is not enough on a Ki in FB lol .... roll rate is off too I think... at least relative to other aircraft.

VW-IceFire
03-28-2004, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by H_Butcher:
Anecdotal evidence means absolutely squat.

Sorry, but it's true. You can find pilot accounts and recollections that all say "their" ride was the best in the sky and could beat up everyone else's dad.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're right...but only to a point. Even Oleg takes pilot accounts into his "final equation" because there are attributes that cannot be specifically tested by a quantitative testing regime. You need qualitative testing as well...the FW190 snap stall, the Lightning stability in a stall situation because of the engines, the Bf 109's ability to smoothly lift iself off of the runway if given the right flaps, runway, and engine power.

The problem is when you use pilot recollections to paint the entire picture. Qualitative data is useful but best backed up by aerodynamical quantitative data as well. Both are useful, both have their place, and both are certainly required to get the best modeling in FB.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Korolov
03-28-2004, 09:13 PM
Don't forget that Thomas McGuire died in a P-38 stall. If you pushed her too hard, she *would* stall and snap out.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

chris455
03-28-2004, 11:24 PM
Korolov,
Hello my friend.
Wasn't Tommy NcGuire lugging a pair of droptanks when he stalled his ship?
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

PzKpfw
03-29-2004, 04:21 PM
Anedotal evidence can never be dismissed, to do so, is a grave error on any historian or sim designers part.

In Il-2's case anecdotal evidence is important Ie, even Oleg uses it to prove a point on occasion. Anecdotal evidence, can be used in context, with other data as has been stated here, so one can get a good picture of how the plane 'felt' etc.


Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

Gibbage1
03-29-2004, 06:51 PM
That is correct. He died because he entered the fight with the droptanks. The P-38 is highly unstable with something (droptanks or bombs) attached to its inner pylons because of the dirsturbance of air between the engine boom and the center gondol. Not because of weight. If you go to Zero's Warbirds they have a training video of a P-38. They show you the stall twice. If you were not told it was a stall, you would never know a stall even happened. Just a slight dip. Even this video of a P-38 stalling twice wont help simply becaus IL2 was never programmed for an aircraft without torque.

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Korolov,
Hello my friend.
Wasn't Tommy NcGuire lugging a pair of droptanks when he stalled his ship?
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CHDT
03-30-2004, 02:03 AM
A very good interview on this very good site:

http://members.tripod.com/warbirdlover/index.htm



NTERVIEW WITH GEORGE GRAY OF THE 67TH FIGHTER SQUADRON

This is an interview I was fortunate enough to get with George Gray, who flew P-39's and P-38's with the 67th Fighter Squadron of the 347th Fighter Group (two engine) of the 13th Army Air Force in the South and Southwest Pacific Theatres during World War II. He represents the typical brave pilot that did not get the "glory" that the few aces received but that was just as instrumental in helping us win the war. You'll note in this interview that George (and most other) pilots did not shoot down Japanese aircraft. You'll also note that they never had the opportunity as most of the Japanese would avoid flights of P-38's. These pilots faced extreme danger on every mission and they flew them daily. The 13th Air Forces best ace, Robert Westbrook, was not shot down by a Japanese plane but by flak. Some lost their lives in the terrible storms on their way to or from missions. They have given just as much to this Country as those that died in aerial combat. The missions in the Pacific were usually over large expanses of water and in Japanese held territory. If they had to bail out they faced sharks in the water and head hunters on the islands or Japanese capture, torture and beheading. They deserve this Country's highest respect.

WBL: You made numerous trips to attack the Balikpapan area from Middleburg in the northeast coast of the Dutch East Indies. What was the purpose of some of these missions?

GG: I only made 2 trips to Balikpapan. We covered B-24's that were bombing the area and also got to spend about 15 minutes over the target, strafing oil refineries.

WBL: You were part of the longest missions of the war, over 2,100 miles round trip. Were there many pilots that did not make it back from these dangerous missions?

GG: On the missions I participated in, approximately 48 aircraft (67th, 68th and 339th Fighter Squadrons) flew together. After the missions, we flew from Balikpapan to Morotai for refueling, then back to Middleburg, and I'm pretty sure all the pilots made it safely back to base.

WBL: How many hours did it take to complete these missions?

GG: 10 hours and 10 minutes.

WBL: Lindberg showed you how to "lean out" your P-38 engines to be able to fly this distance. Did you get to talk to him and if so what was he like?

GG: No. Lindberg worked directly with the Fifth Air Force. But his theory on increasing the range of P-38's was passed on to all P-38 outfits in the Pacific Theatre of Operations.

WBL: The pictures show the 67th Fighter Squadron in front of the Walt Disney designed "fighting ****" emblem. At the bottom of this emblem there are about 22 Japanese flags. Arthur Durtsche shot down a "Mitsubishi night fighter" (his words) and George Dubis shot down a Ki-44 "Tojo" but do you remember any others?

GG:I was on rest leave when Arthur made the 935 mile mission from Middleburg Island, Dutch New Guinea to Makassar, Netherlands East Indies in November 1944. That was a serious battle, with our boys bombing and strafing enemy ships, buildings, planes, everything in the area. Art shot down a twin engine Jap bomber, known as a "Hank." Robert "Westy" Westbrook, our 13th Air Force Ace and Deputy Group Commander, was shot down on that mission, as was his wingman. The wingman was later recovered (Westy wasn't so lucky). This battle opened the route to the Philippines.

Under separate cover, I'm sending you a copy of 13th Air Force Victories for reference. This document lists all aircraft shot down by 13th Air Force pilots during the Pacific War.

Note: Disney still owns the Fighting **** insignia.

WBL: Did you fly any missions that were intercepted by Japanese fighters and if so please elaborate?

GG: No, thankfully I never encountered enemy aircraft. Most of my work and practically all of the Thirteenth Air Force's work was dive bombing and strafing to neutralize troop concentrations and enemy fortifications on the ground and make it a little easier for Allied ground forces to enter enemy lines.

WBL: This was serious business but tell of any funny stories or situations that you remember.

GG: When I got into my plane for a mission, the only thoughts on my mind were to get safely off the ground, fly to the target and do my job well, return to base safely and land safely. That's all any of us thought about because we all wanted to come home in one piece. It was dangerous work that took all of our focus and strength.

WBL: John Johnson used to tell of one of the island bases that had an artillery gun firing occasionally at the base and could not be destroyed. What base was this and elaborate?

GG: That was on Bougainville. The island held an active volcano and there was a hidden gunman somewhere near there. Every time we flew our P-39's close to the mouth of the volcano, smoke would come into our cockpits and damn near choke us to death. I'm not sure if they ever caught that gunner.

WBL: You used napalm extensively. What technique did you use in regard to altitude, formation etc.? Were the results usually successful?

GG: We would fill our two 110-gallon belly tanks full of the jelly-like substance and strafe areas we believed to be heavily concentrated with the enemy. I never looked back to see the fire below, but I know it was successful. We dropped Napalm on Palawan prior to the Allied invasion, burned a lot of ground, and later found out that we killed many enemy troops.

SBL: You attacked air fields and ships on many missions. Could you describe the most memorable one?

GG: Oh, it all seems so vague now. Hard to remember the details. We strafed air fields on Kendari in the Celebes, shooting up aircraft on the ground. And I remember dive-bombing Rabaul in a P-39 with a 500 lb. bomb. We'd descend from 12,000 feet, drop the bomb at 5,000 feet and have enough altitude to get back up and fly away.

WBL: What was your impression of the P-38 compared to other Allied aircraft and compared to the Japanese aircraft?

GG:We'd been used to flying lightweight aircraft and the P-38 was very heavy. When I first climbed into the cockpit, it felt like a mack truck. But after 3 hours, I loved it. The P-38 was the most aerodynamically stable plane we'd ever had. It could achieve the altitude and had the firepower we needed to damage enemy lines.

WBL: How short a distance could the P-38 take off from and how long and what type of air strip did you usually have on these islands?

GG: Our airstrips were constructed of Marston matting, steel mats locked together on top of the sandy terrain. They may have been 5,000 feet in length, if that. With a full load of fuel in my two 110-gallon belly tanks and enough ammunition for the mission, I'd hold the brakes and run the throttle up to 52 inches of manifold pressure. When I hit 110 mph, I'd hit the flaps at 20% and be lifted off the runway. I wouldn't pull the wheels up until I hit 300 feet (to avoid sinking). And I'd pull the flaps up at 500 feet. The best a loaded P-38L could do was take off in about 1090 feet of runway.

WBL: What island bases do you remember being at?

GG:

* Russell Islands
* Torokina Strip at Empress Augusta Bay, Bougainville
* Middleburg Island off the Coast of Dutch New Guinea
* Morotai in the Halamahara Islands
* Dulag at Leyte in the Philippines
* Port au Princessa, Palawan

There were other bases in between, but none I stayed in for any length of time.

WBL: Did you get to meet some of the famous P-38 pilots like Bong and McQuire? If so, what were they like?

GG: No. Those privileges were reserved for the Fifth Air Force, General Kenney's preferred group of pilots and squadrons. They received all the priority missions and celebrity visitors while the aptly named Jungle Air Force did the dirty work that ensured victory overseas.

WBL: Do you remember when Yamamoto was shot down and were you stationed in that area?

GG: Yamamoto was shot down April 18, 1943 over the southern tip of Bougainville in an area known as Kahili. I was in basic flight training in Newport, Arkansas at the time, but later came to know the area well. It was a "hot spot," always full of enemy forces. The mission was kept very quiet until after the war for security reasons (to protect our intelligence) and also because Tom Lanphier's brother was a Navy pilot being held as a prisoner of war on Rabaul. (Lanphier was the pilot initially credited with shooting down Yamamoto)

Under separate cover (not for publication), I sent you the following info to give you an idea of the scope of this mission:

* Copy of a military debriefing memo;

* Copy of an article published by Doug Canning, one of the pilots who flew the mission (still living);

* Copy of a 13th Jungle Air Force newsletter containing Rex Barber's account of the mission. According to P-38 pilots on the mission as well as one of the Zero pilots flying with Yamamoto that day, Rex actually shot the Admiral down.

WBL: Was the P-38L much better then the earlier models and why?

GG: Yes, much better because of the additional features. It had dive flaps to help pilots recover from steep dives, a more powerful engine and the aileron boost, something like power steering for fighter pilots.

WBL: Did you ever get in a "compressibility" dive and if so how did you get out?

GG: Yes, over Middleburg on a test flight. I was in a dive from 20,000 feet, and by the time I realized what was happening, the nose was starting to tuck under in partial compressibility. I began trying to pull out and was able to regain control of the plane at 8,000 feet, at which point I terminated the test.

WBL: The P-38 was said to be the fastest accelerating Allied fighter of WWII. Is this true?

GG: I don't know about fastest accelerating. The P-38 gave us speed and distance. It was a formidable aircraft and the fastest plane in the Pacific.

WBL: How much of an improvement was the P-38 over the P-39 AiraCobra?

GG: Immense.

WBL: Were you in any "dogfights" with the Japanese planes and if so describe it?

GG: Negative. I never encountered any enemy aircraft.

WBL: Was the P-38 a difficult airplane to fly?

GG: No. It was the most aerodynamically sound aircraft I ever flew.

WBL: Was it easier to fly than the P-39?

GG: Yes.

WBL: How early in the war could you see the tide turning in the Allies favor?

GG: When we started flying missions out of Middleburg to the Philippines, there was a definite turn in our favor. But I believe there were 3 major turning points in the Pacific Theatre of WWII ... The Battle of Midway, Guadalcanal and The Yamamoto Mission. Yamamoto was the supreme commander of all Japanese naval forces and his death was a devastating blow to the Japanese.

WBL: Your P-38's were "bare metal". Was there a reason for this or was it just not considered necessary? John Johnson used to say it was to lower weight.

GG: He was correct. The bare bones approach lessened our weight, which was always a consideration. It also saved money on paint and just looked better.

WBL: Tell us about "Washing Machine Charlie."

GG: Washing Machine Charlie was a Jap bomber who used to fly over and drop bombs from 20,000 feet in the middle of the night. I guess his mission was to make sure we never got a good night's sleep.

WBL: How far "east" did your missions take you?

GG: I traveled as far east as Saigon to Nga Trang to cover for B-24's and over French Indo China. Those missions were 1,500 miles round trip, all over water, and took about 7 hours 40 minutes to complete.

WBL: What other interesting things could you tell us about your time in the war?

GG: In Primary, I was Group Captain of Cadets and had to conduct early morning calisthenics because our P.T. Instructor liked to sleep in. And in the Pacific, we shared bunks with a couple of canine companions, Mitzi, a little brown dachshund and Snuffy, a black cocker. They brought a lot of comfort to us over there.

WBL: When deploying the flaps, was there a noticeable change in pitch? If so, which direction (up/down)?

GG: Flaps give an aircraft lift at lower speeds. There was a slight change in altitude (up) when deploying them, and you could experience quite a change in altitude, depending on the degree of flaps you put down.

WBL: Similarly, did the flaps induce an appreciable reduction in speed?

GG: Yes. It slowed you down a bit. We increased the manifold pressure by throttles to compensate.

WBL: At what altitude would you typically cruise for medium and long range missions?

GG: 12,000-15,000 feet. On long range missions, we had to decrease rpm's to 1650 and manifold pressure to 26-27" and mix the controls back to just above automatic lean, which would put us at a cruise of 175 mph. As fuel was used, our speed would increase. After 1 hour of flying, we had to increase our altitude and put our mixture controls back to automatic rich to clean out carbon that had collected in the valves. That took about a minute, then we returned our settings and speed to normal.

WBL: As a flight progressed, could you sense any significant change in the center of gravity due to fuel consumption? Did you have to change trim much as the center of gravity changed?

GG: Not really. Our speed would increase as the weight of fuel and ammunition decreased. To keep my flight equilibrium balanced, I would use 50 gallons out of my left tank, then switch to the right tank and back again.

WBL: What was the effect on the aircraft when firing guns? Could you feel any recoil? Did you notice any appreciable change in the center of gravity due to firing a lot of ammunition?

GG: No effect in the P-38, because our guns were all housed in the nose of the aircraft. But the 37mm cannon in the P-39 was a different story. There was a definite kick - it felt like you were backing up!

WBL: Did you ever fly a P-38 with the dive recovery (compressibility) flaps (on late J's and all L's)? (If so, please comment on how they were used generally and in combat situations. How did they affect normal flight?

GG: Yes. We were approaching the speed of sound in a dive from high altitudes, and unless the pilot cut the power and started pulling out in time, the nose would start to tuck under, causing a loss of control. I later learned (from Lockheed's Chief Test Pilot) that many P-38 pilots lost their lives that way, mostly in training accidents. With the "L" model, Lockheed installed dive flaps under the wing tips to help us recover from those steep dives. What a wonderful invention. The dive flaps also made it possible for us to make a square turn in our P-38's.

WBL: During extreme combat maneuvers, did the aircraft have a tendency to stall (during rapid climbs, turns, etc.) If so, what was done to recover?

GG: Negative. You could stand the P-38 on its tail and either push it through or pull it through a maneuver without snapping a wing or stalling out.

Note: At least two of the 339th pilots who flew The Y Mission are still
with us - Doug Canning and Jack Jacobson.

WBL: George, thanks so much for the interview.

GG: You're very welcome Jerry