PDA

View Full Version : Shinobi is Broken.



Rahnzan
06-06-2017, 04:15 AM
Shinobi has two guaranteed double-lights that he can spam endlessly, a move that was just nerfed to hell on the Peacekeeper. This becomes severely broken when they get their heal feat.

Shinobi has an unblockable uninterruptible, undodgable, tracking, stamina damaging Tackle with Knockdown. A move we just nerfed to hell on the Shugoki that's better than Oni-Rush ever was.

Shinobi has an unblockable uninterruptible, undodgable, tracking, stamina damaging Kick with Knockback and Light, Heavy, GB, Dodge(Backflip)-Attack follow-ups that protect them from Punish save for 500ms Light Attacks that can only trade. You all complained about Warden's 50/50, (that AGAIN, we JUST nerfed) this mother-eff has a god damn 25/25/25/25. To Hel with you people.

Shinobi has a heavy attack that Auto-Grapples for 3 free hits that do bleed. Are you people on meth!? "Hey, a lot of people really dislike the Peacekeeper's grab attack. What if we added 30 damage to it."

Solutions:
Remove Guaranteed Lights, He doesn't need them, how are you going to tell me he needs them? Basically every button he presses is heavy damage.

Tackle's tracking needs to be set to ZERO. NONE. NOT ONE F*****G DEGREE OF TURNING. It needs to die. Stamina damage needs to be reduced severely. Lawbringer's Long Arm is slow and leaves LB vulnerable during its execution if it hits, this has no such issues. His kit does not rely on fighting people who don't have stamina.

Kick needs to be avoidable from dodge in any direction - especially the direction its coming from. Stamina cost needs to be 25 like Centurion. I have never seen a Shinobi refuse to dodge cancel. Why? Because this move is unpunishable, there's no reason to make people think you MIGHT do a kick if the kick always succeeds. Not one Shinobi in this game is currently thinking "Damn better not kick!" Same stamina damage reduction Tackle needs, they DON'T need to kill stamina. The stun and free hits is enough.

Jasado
06-06-2017, 07:14 AM
Shinobi has two guaranteed double-lights that he can spam endlessly, a move that was just nerfed to hell on the Peacekeeper. This becomes severely broken when they get their heal feat.

Shinobi has an unblockable uninterruptible, undodgable, tracking, stamina damaging Tackle with Knockdown. A move we just nerfed to hell on the Shugoki that's better than Oni-Rush ever was.

Shinobi has an unblockable uninterruptible, undodgable, tracking, stamina damaging Kick with Knockback and Light, Heavy, GB, Dodge(Backflip)-Attack follow-ups that protect them from Punish save for 500ms Light Attacks that can only trade. You all complained about Warden's 50/50, (that AGAIN, we JUST nerfed) this mother-eff has a god damn 25/25/25/25. To Hel with you people.

Shinobi has a heavy attack that Auto-Grapples for 3 free hits that do bleed. Are you people on meth!? "Hey, a lot of people really dislike the Peacekeeper's grab attack. What if we added 30 damage to it."

Solutions:
Remove Guaranteed Lights, He doesn't need them, how are you going to tell me he needs them? Basically every button he presses is heavy damage.

Tackle's tracking needs to be set to ZERO. NONE. NOT ONE F*****G DEGREE OF TURNING. It needs to die. Stamina damage needs to be reduced severely. Lawbringer's Long Arm is slow and leaves LB vulnerable during its execution if it hits, this has no such issues. His kit does not rely on fighting people who don't have stamina.

Kick needs to be avoidable from dodge in any direction - especially the direction its coming from. Stamina cost needs to be 25 like Centurion. I have never seen a Shinobi refuse to dodge cancel. Why? Because this move is unpunishable, there's no reason to make people think you MIGHT do a kick if the kick always succeeds. Not one Shinobi in this game is currently thinking "Damn better not kick!" Same stamina damage reduction Tackle needs, they DON'T need to kill stamina. The stun and free hits is enough.
You actually just said that "Basically every button he presses is heavy damage". Because of two lights hitting you that do less damage than Orochi's double light and two peackeeper lights.

Shinobi's heavies do like 25 damage base, less than everyone elses 30+.

The ONLY thing OP about Shinobi is the guaranteed followup from his kick. It's cheesy and brainless because of how much priority it has - but again, only because it guarantees the followup heavy. So many otherwise good fights get closed out by spamming kick.

His dashing sweep kick isn't op. The only guarantee is a light. I can't see a single situation in which you could realistically cry about it.

Sickle Rain only connects in 2 ways - you don't reject the ranged grab, or you get hit with a second naked heavy.

Completely your fault. Eat that damage, son.

You also just literally complained about Shinobi's healing feat, which is their FINAL feat, is completely incomparable to something ACTUALLY broken like Catapult, requires him to be hitting you, and is the only meaningful way for him to fight multiple people late in a match with a max health pool of 90.

You obviously have no objectivity because you've been kicked in the head one too many times. Which is a fair point - but kick guaranteed followup light/heavies are the only thing that needs to go.

Everything else you're screaming at the top of your lungs about is complete horse**** based purely in your own salt. Which can be contrasted and compared with any other characters ability to cheese you out in specific environments.

Draghmar
06-06-2017, 08:18 AM
Shinobi has an unblockable uninterruptible, undodgable, tracking, stamina damaging Tackle with Knockdown. A move we just nerfed to hell on the Shugoki that's better than Oni-Rush ever was.
That's not entirely true - you can interrput it by at least heavy - I did this many times with Nobushi but you need to attack at the right moment (very early). You can also dodge it but it's quite hard. It has no tracking.


Shinobi has an unblockable uninterruptible, undodgable, tracking, stamina damaging Kick with Knockback and Light, Heavy, GB, Dodge(Backflip)-Attack follow-ups that protect them from Punish save for 500ms Light Attacks that can only trade. You all complained about Warden's 50/50, (that AGAIN, we JUST nerfed) this mother-eff has a god damn 25/25/25/25. To Hel with you people.
You can dodge it and the only guarantee is heavy as far I know.

Overall I think I'm not sure if Shinobi is so OP. It has some weird moves but the it mostly irritating in group fights when there's no indicator that GB is coming your way.

SnugglesIV
06-06-2017, 08:28 AM
You actually just said that "Basically every button he presses is heavy damage". Because of two lights hitting you that do less damage than Orochi's double light and two peackeeper lights.

Shinobi's heavies do like 25 damage base, less than everyone elses 30+.

The ONLY thing OP about Shinobi is the guaranteed followup from his kick. It's cheesy and brainless because of how much priority it has - but again, only because it guarantees the followup heavy. So many otherwise good fights get closed out by spamming kick.

His dashing sweep kick isn't op. The only guarantee is a light. I can't see a single situation in which you could realistically cry about it.

Sickle Rain only connects in 2 ways - you don't reject the ranged grab, or you get hit with a second naked heavy.

Completely your fault. Eat that damage, son.

You also just literally complained about Shinobi's healing feat, which is their FINAL feat, is completely incomparable to something ACTUALLY broken like Catapult, requires him to be hitting you, and is the only meaningful way for him to fight multiple people late in a match with a max health pool of 90.

You obviously have no objectivity because you've been kicked in the head one too many times. Which is a fair point - but kick guaranteed followup light/heavies are the only thing that needs to go.

Everything else you're screaming at the top of your lungs about is complete horse**** based purely in your own salt. Which can be contrasted and compared with any other characters ability to cheese you out in specific environments.

1) Every successful heavy grants the Shinobi a guaranteed light into backflip. Also his heavies deal 30 damage so you're technically wrong there (taken from the damage values spreadsheet here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0). If you include the free light, he does 38 on every heavy. So yes, he does more damage on every heavy (if you confirm the guaranteed light) with the exception of Warden, Zerker top heavy, Raider, Shugoki and Kensei top unblockable.

2) He gets a free light on ANY successful attack, meaning he can literally interrupt anyone with a light-light combo and backflip with hyperarmor back to safety. His mix up game is WAY stronger than Centurion's (even though Centurion is marketed as a mix up intensive character). Shinobi even has some of the best minion clear in the game with ZA into unlocked heavy. The only weakness Shinobi has is his health, and that is mitigated (if not completely ignored) by the fact that he is so slippery and safe that only PK and Orochi can catch Shinobi and attack him.

3) Dashing sweep kick? I hope you're not talking about double dash kick...

4) If you're in a 4v4 mode, it is pretty easy for the Shinobi to catch you unawares with a ranged GB by charging it out of camera view, into Sickle Rain for massive damage. While we're talking about Sickle Rain, I should mention that it CANNOT be interrupted by a friendly attacking the Shinobi's target. I have tested this before. Unlike PK Triple Stab or Centurion's Lion's Roar, you are free to hit the unfortunate sap caught in Shinobi's Sickle Rain. In short, it's a free kill if a Shinobi catches someone with Sickle Rain (and unlike LB's flip or Shugoki's Hug, it's fairly hard to see it coming if the Shinobi knows what he is doing, and the Shinobi is free to take that free heavy-light-light-light damage and backflip to safety).

5) No comment. Once they fix renown gain on Shinobi, that T4 healing feat will be much less of an issue.

The double dash kick is easily the worst thing about Shinobi. However, it is by no means the ONLY thing that is completely busted on him...

XxHunterHxX
06-06-2017, 09:36 AM
They wont nerf this new caracters thill season 3 so they sell more season pass and steel packs mark my words :)

MarkedElite
06-06-2017, 11:33 AM
Why are people still trying to defend Shinobi? He's better than every character in the game right now, and that counts Warden and Warlord, who were already considered sort of OP before these new characters came along.

Netcode_err_404
06-06-2017, 11:37 AM
Why are people still trying to defend Shinobi? He's better than every character in the game right now, and that counts Warden and Warlord, who were already considered sort of OP before these new characters came along.

He is as op as warlords, but not better, they are less forgiving.

A warlord just needs a parry to win a match, in 90% of the current maps.

S0Mi_xD
06-06-2017, 11:41 AM
Shinobi is the strongest char currently.
Shinobi is number 1.

He is the Glasscannon per se.

But i wouldn't call Shinobi OP, because you can still beat shinobis pretty fast and pretty easy (depending on how the shinobi plays)

Netcode_err_404
06-06-2017, 11:43 AM
Shinobi is the strongest char currently.
Shinobi is number 1.

He is the Glasscannon per se.

But i wouldn't call Shinobi OP, because you can still beat shinobis pretty fast and pretty easy (depending on how the shinobi plays)

That not depends on you. Your only way to defeat a shinoby is hoping they will make a mistake. if they don't, gg

S0Mi_xD
06-06-2017, 11:46 AM
That not depends on you. Your only way to defeat a shinoby is hoping they will make a mistake. if they don't, gg

xD please read again what i wrote ....."depending on how the shinobi plays" if the shinobi plays bad (makes mistakes) if shinobi good and your chances are meeh.

Do you understand, first reading then writing (since i joined this forum and read some of your post/answers i couldn't take you you serious...)

FightingFerrets
06-06-2017, 02:03 PM
Why are people still trying to defend Shinobi? He's better than every character in the game right now, and that counts Warden and Warlord, who were already considered sort of OP before these new characters came along.

I main Warlord...can't touch shinobi. Can't catch him, can't hit him. Eventually I'll get guard broken from range and get a pile of sickles driven into my scalp. Rinse/repeat.

Yeah the problem is mine for being such a crappy player I know...but as a rep 11 WL this is the character that gives me the most trouble.

Netcode_err_404
06-06-2017, 05:29 PM
xD please read again what i wrote ....."depending on how the shinobi plays" if the shinobi plays bad (makes mistakes) if shinobi good and your chances are meeh.

Do you understand, first reading then writing (since i joined this forum and read some of your post/answers i couldn't take you you serious...)

Ok, now that you got your edgy moment, are you ok ? Feel satisfied ? Jeez.,

Haemmerst0rm
06-06-2017, 06:41 PM
@UbiJurassic

There is also something wrong with shinobi... See the reddit link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/6dhtr0/is_this_intended_shinobi_tech/

They can do infinite dodges. I've played against good shinobis and they use this technique which makes the fight against shinobi a huge guesswork. This isnt intended. This needs a fix. This is a game based on reactions, not on guessing to this stupid playstyle!

TSCDescon
06-06-2017, 07:09 PM
@UbiJurassic

There is also something wrong with shinobi... See the reddit link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/6dhtr0/is_this_intended_shinobi_tech/

They can do infinite dodges. I've played against good shinobis and they use this technique which makes the fight against shinobi a huge guesswork. This isnt intended. This needs a fix. This is a game based on reactions, not on guessing to this stupid playstyle!

What have this game become?

Sincerity117
06-06-2017, 07:29 PM
I dunno in 4v4 I wreck shinobi's and cents with my Kensei granted he is 144 gs. I just play very passively. Cent does his lunging heavy or kick side step attack and feint top ub into a gb or side heavy rinse and repeat cuz they have no way to open other than getting really close. Shinobi wants to abuse his kick? Side step attack and feint spam to death so all he can do is get real close without using his kick and try to land his first light on me to guarantee the second or try to feint heavies into a gb which is too obvious. The thing is that all the characters that have a dodge attack can do this to both the new characters. However, I will admit playing someone like warden now in 4v4 against a full cent or shinobi team is probably the most frustrating playing experience ever. I agree that the window you can dodge the shinobi kick should be longer because if you don't dodge at the exact right time it tracks like a heatseeker

Jasado
06-06-2017, 07:57 PM
1) Every successful heavy grants the Shinobi a guaranteed light into backflip. Also his heavies deal 30 damage so you're technically wrong there (taken from the damage values spreadsheet here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=0). If you include the free light, he does 38 on every heavy. So yes, he does more damage on every heavy (if you confirm the guaranteed light) with the exception of Warden, Zerker top heavy, Raider, Shugoki and Kensei top unblockable.

2) He gets a free light on ANY successful attack, meaning he can literally interrupt anyone with a light-light combo and backflip with hyperarmor back to safety. His mix up game is WAY stronger than Centurion's (even though Centurion is marketed as a mix up intensive character). Shinobi even has some of the best minion clear in the game with ZA into unlocked heavy. The only weakness Shinobi has is his health, and that is mitigated (if not completely ignored) by the fact that he is so slippery and safe that only PK and Orochi can catch Shinobi and attack him.

3) Dashing sweep kick? I hope you're not talking about double dash kick...

4) If you're in a 4v4 mode, it is pretty easy for the Shinobi to catch you unawares with a ranged GB by charging it out of camera view, into Sickle Rain for massive damage. While we're talking about Sickle Rain, I should mention that it CANNOT be interrupted by a friendly attacking the Shinobi's target. I have tested this before. Unlike PK Triple Stab or Centurion's Lion's Roar, you are free to hit the unfortunate sap caught in Shinobi's Sickle Rain. In short, it's a free kill if a Shinobi catches someone with Sickle Rain (and unlike LB's flip or Shugoki's Hug, it's fairly hard to see it coming if the Shinobi knows what he is doing, and the Shinobi is free to take that free heavy-light-light-light damage and backflip to safety).

5) No comment. Once they fix renown gain on Shinobi, that T4 healing feat will be much less of an issue.

The double dash kick is easily the worst thing about Shinobi. However, it is by no means the ONLY thing that is completely busted on him...

I stand corrected on the heavy damage. I was wrong. I had it swapped with the damage of the ranged heavy, which is the 25 I spoke of.

Frankly, I'm fine with that being nerfed, then. (His light > light does not do any serious damage though, like lmao.)

Shinobi's mixup game isn't "wayyyy stronger", it simply provides more pressure and immediate payoff. However, it can all be responded to in a larger window and with a larger risk to Shinobi if it's stopped. Almost all of Centurion's options just reset him to neutral or still leave the ball in his court, even if you stop him. Centurion also has a lot more options and nuance (and makes your screen a disco ball.) If you really don't want the worse case scenario vs Shinobi, all you have to do is push square over and over once he backflips, lmao.

Clearly you haven't played Shinobi much if you say his low hp is his only weakness (and let's not pretend that isn't a HUGE weakness). His 1vX is horrible, he gets destroyed in multifights, and his guard lasts for a quarter of a second. It's basically parry timing. His zone isn't cancelable and is prone to being parried, even when you use it in the best situation possible.

By dashing sweep kick, I meant exactly that, which is what the OP was referencing by comparing it to Shugoki tackle. The Shinobi's dashing kick that sweeps you when he slides under you.

If you read the rest of my post, I clearly made the differentiation between that and the double dash kick, which is the one that provides the free followup heavy (this needs to be changed.)

The only guarantee from the sweeping dash kick is again, just a light attack.

I am aware Sickle Rain is the most op wombo combo ability in the game and that offscreen grabs basically mean you are dead. So? Shinobi also stands completely still to do it, so that's a prime time to kill him, it has risks. If he lands it during a situation where he outnumbers you, then yeah, you're dead. The only way allies interrupt it is if they literally shove or knockback the shinobi or his targets. Most of the time you do Sickle Rain and multiple people spam attacks on the enemy, the target will get revenge mode though, which UNLIKE CENTURION'S CHARGED STAB > PUNCH, you can actually revenge burst out of Sickle Rain mid chop and Shinobi stumbles away.

As a tip for all the salty ones out there, Shinobi screams "KAKUGO" at the top of his lungs whenever he does the ranged grab. You can listen for that and push square to counter grab him from offscreen. It will shatter his brain, and you can usually kill him or severely harm him. Plus, while yes, Sickle Rain is the worst, anyone can do an offscreen attack that ruins your day. Those don't have ANY tells (like Conqueror's dashing Shield Bash).

So again, outside a situation that you likely die in anyways, and it having a tell to allow you to counter it even within that, Sickle Rain only lands in TWO situations. From a ranged grab you LET hit you, or a double naked heavy you LET hit you. Both are STILL your fault.

Antonioj26
06-06-2017, 08:30 PM
I stand corrected on the heavy damage. I was wrong. I had it swapped with the damage of the ranged heavy, which is the 25 I spoke of.

Frankly, I'm fine with that being nerfed, then. (His light > light does not do any serious damage though, like lmao.)

Shinobi's mixup game isn't "wayyyy stronger", it simply provides more pressure and immediate payoff. However, it can all be responded to in a larger window and with a larger risk to Shinobi if it's stopped. Almost all of Centurion's options just reset him to neutral or still leave the ball in his court, even if you stop him. Centurion also has a lot more options and nuance (and makes your screen a disco ball.) If you really don't want the worse case scenario vs Shinobi, all you have to do is push square over and over once he backflips, lmao.

Clearly you haven't played Shinobi much if you say his low hp is his only weakness (and let's not pretend that isn't a HUGE weakness). His 1vX is horrible, he gets destroyed in multifights, and his guard lasts for a quarter of a second. It's basically parry timing. His zone isn't cancelable and is prone to being parried, even when you use it in the best situation possible.

By dashing sweep kick, I meant exactly that, which is what the OP was referencing by comparing it to Shugoki tackle. The Shinobi's dashing kick that sweeps you when he slides under you.

If you read the rest of my post, I clearly made the differentiation between that and the double dash kick, which is the one that provides the free followup heavy (this needs to be changed.)

The only guarantee from the sweeping dash kick is again, just a light attack.

I am aware Sickle Rain is the most op wombo combo ability in the game and that offscreen grabs basically mean you are dead. So? Shinobi also stands completely still to do it, so that's a prime time to kill him, it has risks. If he lands it during a situation where he outnumbers you, then yeah, you're dead. The only way allies interrupt it is if they literally shove or knockback the shinobi or his targets. Most of the time you do Sickle Rain and multiple people spam attacks on the enemy, the target will get revenge mode though, which UNLIKE CENTURION'S CHARGED STAB > PUNCH, you can actually revenge burst out of Sickle Rain mid chop and Shinobi stumbles away.

As a tip for all the salty ones out there, Shinobi screams "KAKUGO" at the top of his lungs whenever he does the ranged grab. You can listen for that and push square to counter grab him from offscreen. It will shatter his brain, and you can usually kill him or severely harm him. Plus, while yes, Sickle Rain is the worst, anyone can do an offscreen attack that ruins your day. Those don't have ANY tells (like Conqueror's dashing Shield Bash).

So again, outside a situation that you likely die in anyways, and it having a tell to allow you to counter it even within that, Sickle Rain only lands in TWO situations. From a ranged grab you LET hit you, or a double naked heavy you LET hit you. Both are STILL your fault.

Well his double lights are guaranteed if the first hit and does 22 damage (highest light in the game) and breaks armor so not sure how that's not serious but okay. If you are half decent with shin his HP is a small problem since he can be played very safe. Not sure what this push square square once he backflips you are talking about, all that's going to do is make you bounce off him and I think your recovery will be bad enough that shin can probably get a guaranteed ranged gb into sickle rain (which I'll get back to later).

Reflex guard really isn't that big of a problem either for anyone who is at least a little experienced with assassins. I'm pretty bad with assassins and I still am rarely hit because of his crap guard.

Only crap shins used ranged gb when it's not guaranteed. It's guaranteed off of light parry, whiffed attacks, when you bounce back from attempting a gb and get backflipped kicked, and on recovery frames so no those two scenarios you mentioned arent the only times and the ones I listed can't be cgb.

Edit: orochi slipped my mind but his are actually the highest at 32 with his double top lights but still 22is more than anyone else.