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View Full Version : Some possible problems with indicators on console / light attack problematics



Herbstlicht
06-05-2017, 09:53 PM
Well, playing the game for quiet some time now (prestige 30+-something), I realized that I begin to rely on indicators less and less, playing more what my gut tells me. However, after ... say "feeling competent in countering the new heroes" and consequently a lot of practice, I noticed that you can't use those indicators for reliable swift light blocks.

However - If your reactions are good, you are going to possibly parry pretty much everything else but those fastest light attacks. And you can do so on those indicators pretty easily.

So, what does this mean? Well, for one - people might continue having problems with ultra fast lights - especially on console, because until you don't have a feel for those attacks as a whole, you are not even gonna block them. This problem will be very pronounced with new heroes that are very fast as well, until you figured out their movements at least.
Furthermore, those heroes with "slower" light attacks really, really do suffer. Like Nobushi getting her light attacks parried even out of hidden stance. Or Berserkers - I mean these poor guys make one of the most genuine useful bots for practicing blocks and parry. Some people are cape able of parrying zerkers like 100%.
In short, light attack spam will stay rather strong on console due to 30 fps and disparity in display and input lag compared to PC.

Is it a problem? Well, I'd say yes. If the average human is possible unable to react to something that might be intended to be react able, we got a serious balancing issue here. Of course, depending weather it should or should not be react able to.

Furthermore, It sucks for new players. If the game tells you this and that are the mechanics - but they simply do not work because the game isn't made for your platform - you have all right to rage all day long.

So, here my call for help to the developers: think over console optimization and balancing. And if it only would be something like slightly improved indicator timings to compensate input lag. Please, please, do not say this stuff doesn't matter. Do not tell us those possible 50ms+ difference don't mean anything for us. I mean it gets even more delay with online play and team games - so try to look into this stuff. It might improve the game by a very large margin, especially for people that do enjoy some of the "slower" classes. Especially with your upcoming changes, characters might get more in line. But if you continue to ignore the concerns of a large part of your community, this community will continue to suffer under this ignorance.
Even with the defence meta removed, we will be able to defend. So there won't be a change to the superiority of faster attacks vs slower attacks. Maybe, the discrepancy might even grow worse.
So before you find yourself in a situation where you no longer know what and how to balance anything on what platform - just try to make it so people can roughly respond in equal ways, no matter what platform those players are playing on.

Otherwise, if you really don't care, just tell it. I mean honestly. It is better to get bad news then no news - or lies - at all. Reason is: we can react to stuff that seems without hope. Or we can hope if there is some, but we might be veery angry if you lied to us.
But it really is time for taking some stance towards your console playerbase. Preferably a honest an open one.

So - just do it, I'd say. Thousands of players might be happy if you finally listened.
Thanks.

That_guy44
06-05-2017, 10:05 PM
You're correct. Add in controller lag, latency, and human delay and you have attacks that simply can't be reached yo on console. Most of the time when I parry light spam I'm not reacting. I'm simply guessing, using my opponents pattern and tendency. I have good game reflexes so I don't mind as much. It's just annoying as all hell for me. For other players with slower reflexes though will simply not have fun. I feel bad for them.

DrExtrem
06-05-2017, 11:19 PM
Its more than annoying - its defacto game breaking.

Before you go up in arms, it is actually not totally bad. Only bad.

Why is it game breaking? Because the game is designed and (especially) balanced around the premise, that it is very possible to parry light attacks to stop attack chains. The fact that it is only working for very few players with gaming monitors and godlike reflexes, is a problem.

The circumstance that it is not totally bad (only bad) is because otherwise, we would as well be haunted by the turtle plague. But that's all.

With the input lag, output lag (tv screen), 30 fps, network lag and indicators not being optimal, we can only guess when we have to hit a button to perform a certain action. It works with standard heavy attacks and dash attacks but not really with lights, fast lights and charged / partially charged heavy attacks.

Blocking them is possible although hard but useless in the case of centurions and shugoki.

We need help here - input lag needs to be reduced (its horrible atm), light strikes need an additional frame for the parry window and the indicators need adjustment as well.

Knight_Raime
06-05-2017, 11:45 PM
i'm not even remotely high skilled and I was able to consistently block/parry the light attacks other console players struggle against last night.
All I did was change my dead zone from 5 to 3 and played on a monitor instead of a computer.
A majority of the problem is hinged on 30fps. But they can't/won't be upping console to 60.
so your next problem that people can tackle is changing their dead zone and getting a monitor.
It massively makes a difference.

UbiJurassic
06-05-2017, 11:50 PM
Players have brought this up a number of times to the team, but currently we do not plan to rebalance the game in a way that is different from PC. I'll forward this thread along to the team for their future consideration as development moves forward.

Herbstlicht
06-06-2017, 01:42 AM
Adding the possibility to adjust indicators wouldn't mean doing a rebalancing. It would mean slightly tweaking when visual feedback occurs.
The guy here posting that is is nicely possibly to block everything on a PC screen is right. I can do so too. But I prefer my console on my big screen. Well, admittedly, it works rather well there too, with only 12ms difference to the best affordable gaming monitors available right now. However, not so on the old one that had like 40ms more display lag.

So, not to point with a finger or stuff like it, but just to explain a little without being a professional at programming:
Those indicators are likely to be programmed to appear at specific times during the animation. With this simple time as some kind of "anchor", normally, it should not be too much of a hassle to move it forward. However, that is not what we want to do. We want to move it "backwards", towards an possible earlier state of the animation.
To achieve this, simply put this "anchor" right at the beginning of the animation. Set one standart value for input lag that makes it appear at exact the same time it does now. Now, just add the option to move it somewhat earlier in the animation, like xx ms, with the in theory earliest time being the press of the button. Depending on the way this stuff is programmed, it could be rather easy to do. Or, maybe, pretty hard. Under the worst of circumstances even, impossible. I mean if the indicator would activate with the button press, and it's only all the delay that makes it seem to appear that late, then .. well, it is kinda "over" already.

This - possibly - simple change would mean a very meaningful quality of life change for people experience varying numbers of display lag.

And this is so "crying" about some imbalances. This is just some issue I, deeming myself an already slightly more experienced player, am seeing being an issue for a lot of fellow console players.

Take Tekken 7 here. Various settings to emulate various network enviroments and lag. What for? Well, simple. To let you practice how to deal with the lag. And I know, Tekken has no Indicators. However, there, you only read the animation. And if you do this in For Honor, you normally have a way easier time reacting, because in my experience, animation starts before the indicator. So normally, there should be some room for adjustment. And I would be really happy if they put in a slider to adust it.