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View Full Version : Shinobi are semi-balanced 1v1, but we are in the midst of the Great Shinobi spam '17



MarkedElite
06-02-2017, 12:41 PM
I play on PS4, and I usually play slower-attacking characters (Raider, LB, Conqueror), and this 4v4 shinobi spam is basically uncounterable. Every once and awhile you will get a team that sucks with their character and bad at being team players, but the other 90% of lobbies are crazy trying to dodge every kick.
http://i.imgur.com/Ws7EEL7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4UOLRUk.jpg



Also - off note: Why can shinobi kick as far as the warlords throw?


"Just dodge and gaurdbreak"
Yeah, dodge and gaurdbreak while staggered by 2 shinobis at once, and my team cant do anything either, since they are staggered too or dead from the shinobis double heavy pin.
OR they just throw out a light immediately and completely negate my GB.



Every time I encounter a 4 man team of shinobi's or more than 5 shinobis in a single game I will post a picture here, feel free to do the same :)

Morathras
06-02-2017, 04:04 PM
same goes for centurion. 8/10 games have at least 2 centurions in the enemy team.
drives me absolutely nuts

T_Sesh
06-02-2017, 04:20 PM
On PC at least, things seem to be evening out, as I'm often only seeing only one or two of the new characters in a given match. That said, the shinobi kick is getting a "slight" nerf in the next patch that will be coming out in a couple of weeks, so we'll see how that goes.

Herbstlicht
06-02-2017, 05:10 PM
Hm, Shinobi masses didn't happen to me yet. But I quit PvP some days ago, while the same picture just with tons of centurions were the thing. But I can imagine that it could be rather unfun too.

Netcode_err_404
06-02-2017, 11:23 PM
Shinobi are broken in both 4v4 and 1v1.

As a matter of fact they have:

-SUperior moveset than any other class in the game, a perfect synergy of moves and tons of different mix ups
-Superior mobility, if a shinobi decides to not engage a fight, you won't either.
-Shugoki's oni cheese run, they nerfed it to the big guy, to come out with the same garbage mechanic for this awfull class.
-Ranged attack, LOL, last time i checked this game was a MELEE game, but ok,
-Safe unblockables with hyper armor AND guaranteed heavy damage.
- Super run, because reasons.


The fact that they have low health pool is completely uninfluential.

Antonioj26
06-02-2017, 11:35 PM
Shinobi are broken in both 4v4 and 1v1.

As a matter of fact they have:

-SUperior moveset than any other class in the game, a perfect synergy of moves and tons of different mix ups
-Superior mobility, if a shinobi decides to not engage a fight, you won't either.
-Shugoki's oni cheese run, they nerfed it to the big guy, to come out with the same garbage mechanic for this awfull class.
-Ranged attack, LOL, last time i checked this game was a MELEE game, but ok,
-Safe unblockables with hyper armor AND guaranteed heavy damage.
- Super run, because reasons.


The fact that they have low health pool is completely uninfluential.

The way people defend this trash character is pretty mind boggling

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 12:44 AM
The way people defend this trash character is pretty mind boggling

Is like doing a class that can 1 shot all, but has 1 hp.

The fact that he has 1 hp, would mean very little.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 12:53 AM
Is like doing a class that can 1 shot all, but has 1 hp.

The fact that he has 1 hp, would mean very little.

yeah, dude. If someone uses his low hp or the fact that you can CGB/parry his long range attacks to kill him I immediately know they havent got a clue on how to beat a good shin. Those two "weaknesses" do not make him balanced.

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 01:23 AM
yeah, dude. If someone uses his low hp or the fact that you can CGB/parry his long range attacks to kill him I immediately know they havent got a clue on how to beat a good shin. Those two "weaknesses" do not make him balanced.

The "competent" ones, do it from literally 200 meters, so, no punish at all.

As LB i cannot even heavy them, even if they are in range. LOL

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 01:27 AM
The "competent" ones, do it from literally 200 meters, so, no punish at all.

As LB i cannot even heavy them, even if they are in range. LOL

Yeah I dont get why they buffed that part of him but whatever. Ubi makes very questionable changes sometimes.

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 01:37 AM
Shinobi are broken in both 4v4 and 1v1.

As a matter of fact they have:

-SUperior moveset than any other class in the game, a perfect synergy of moves and tons of different mix ups
-Superior mobility, if a shinobi decides to not engage a fight, you won't either.
-Shugoki's oni cheese run, they nerfed it to the big guy, to come out with the same garbage mechanic for this awfull class.
-Ranged attack, LOL, last time i checked this game was a MELEE game, but ok,
-Safe unblockables with hyper armor AND guaranteed heavy damage.
- Super run, because reasons.


The fact that they have low health pool is completely uninfluential.

-His mixups are all reactable or avoidable. Only actualy mixup is dbl dash kick/GB

-No different thank PK or Orochi, Pk is actually faster outside super sprint and Shin actually struggles to catch up to PK in super sprint

-Nowhere near as good as shug oni charge was. Knockdown does not last nearly as long and you get up almost instantly. It can't environmental kill and costs a ton of stamina also hit's allies and can't be used to chase and catch people on the run. The dbl lights shin gets off it are comparable in damage to many other characters normal running attacks. Also believe it has no armor so it can be stopped, not 100% on this but I have been hit out of it before sliding under someone more than once.

-Ranged attacks are blockable and parriable the same as regular attacks. Pretty much useless in 1v1 and easy enough to hold your guard in the shin's direction in 2v1s. The ranged GB I would agree might be a bit OP as it's very hard to react to in 2v1's if he is offscreen. But again the ranged GB is pretty much useless in 1v1.

-Not safe, learn to punish it pre-emptively. If you haven't been doing this then that is your fault. It won't work all the time(sometimes it will trade with the kick and sometimes it will beat the kick and stop it from coming out) but if it was easy to punish this move it would be useless and way too risky for him to use. Doing so also completely counters the kick/GB 50/50.

- Not nearly as fast as you probably think and see above.

Also his health does make a large difference in teams. 1 LB impale from the side or a anything like that and you are pretty much dead guaranteed. 1v1 maybe not so much but this game is not and probbaly never will be designed as a 1v1 game primarily.

I would also note that the kick probably does too much stamina damage and could use a nerf here. Anything else and they risk turning the tool into something he can never risk using.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 01:39 AM
-His mixups are all reactable or avoidable. Only actualy mixup is dbl dash kick/GB

-No different thank PK or Orochi, Pk is actually faster outside super sprint and Shin actually struggles to catch up to PK in super sprint

-Nowhere near as good as shug oni charge was. Knockdown does not last nearly as long and you get up almost instantly. It can't environmental kill and costs a ton of stamina also hit's allies and can't
be used to chase and catch people on the run. The dbl lights shin gets off it are equal in damage to many other characters normal running attacks.

-Ranged attacks are blockable and parriable the same as regular attacks. Pretty much useless in 1v1 and easy enough to hold your guard in the shin's direction in 2v1s. The ranged GB I would agree might be a bit OP as it's very hard to react to in 2v1's if he is offscreen. But again the ranged GB is pretty much useless in 1v1.

-Not safe, learn to punish it pre-emptively. If you haven't been doing this then that is your fault. It won't work all the time but if it was easy to punish this move it would be useless and way too risky for him to use. Doing so also completely counters the kick/GB 50/50.

- Not nearly as fast as you probably think and see above.

Also his health does make a large difference in teams. 1 LB impale from the side or a anything like that and you are pretty much dead guaranteed. 1v1 maybe not so much but this game is not and probbaly never will be designed as a 1v1 game primarily.

watch the tourney, The streamer is warlord and hes getting stomped pretty hard and is having a pretty tough time punishing.
https://www.twitch.tv/mulisious

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 01:48 AM
watch the tourney, The streamer is warlord and hes getting stomped pretty hard and is having a pretty tough time punishing.
https://www.twitch.tv/mulisious

Just saw him completely rek the shinobi due in large part to a heavy trade with the kick. So thank you for proving my poiint lol.

2 rounds in a row and he wasn't even half health himself both rounds. Not seeing an issue here.

Another edit, he just 3-0'd the shin and I believe won the match? Why are we still complaining botu shin?

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 01:53 AM
Just saw him completely rek the shinobi due in large part to a heavy trade with the kick. So thank you for proving my poiint lol.

2 rounds in a row and he wasn't even half health himself both rounds. Not seeing an issue here.

yeah he started coming back. He was having a rough time for the first few rounds and matches. Im not saying shin is a god thats unbeatable but he clearly is up there and punishing him is a task that many characters or players arent able to do. You are fairly reasonable so I'm curious where you would place shin on the tiers. You seem to be a staunch defender of him so Im genuinely curious where you think he falls.

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 01:57 AM
yeah he started coming back. He was having a rough time for the first few rounds and matches. Im not saying shin is a god thats unbeatable but he clearly is up there and punishing him is a task that many characters or players arent able to do. You are fairly reasonable so I'm curious where you would place shin on the tiers. You seem to be a staunch defender of him so Im genuinely curious where you think he falls.

He's definitely above average atm, like upper mid tier potentially in the top ranks of characters. But it will take some time to see how and if people can start to reliably punish the dbl/dash kick stuff. Honestly I think some characters might do much better against him than others like Nobu zone absolutely destroys him.

But if people do start reliably trading or punishing him then he could fall down to the realm of noob stomper but average overall.

As far as 1v1 is concerned anyways. In teams his kick and potential Ranged GB cc/dmg will always be an issue that makes him a valuable asset to the team.

But as is right now I think shin is where characters should be and instead of nerfing him others should be buffed and more able to contend with the top characters.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 01:58 AM
Just saw him completely rek the shinobi due in large part to a heavy trade with the kick. So thank you for proving my poiint lol.

2 rounds in a row and he wasn't even half health himself both rounds. Not seeing an issue here.

Another edit, he just 3-0'd the shin and I believe won the match? Why are we still complaining botu shin?

well he did lose its not like it was a sweep, it was 2-3, not the rounds but the matches. He is also warlord so its not like the shin is facing off against bottom tier.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 01:59 AM
He's definitely above average atm, like upper mid tier potentially in the top ranks of characters. But it will take some time to see how and if people can start to reliably punish the dbl/dash kick stuff. Honestly I think some characters might do much better against him than others like Nobu zone absolutely destroys him.

But if people do start reliably trading or punishing him then he could fall down to the realm of noob stomper but average overall.

upper mid tier? thats just silly to me to place him with the likes of LB and valk. If you are still watching the stream hes not doing great against this shin but that is just the first round.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 02:10 AM
And shin won, he destroyed the warlord 3-0.

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 02:15 AM
upper mid tier? thats just silly to me to place him with the likes of LB and valk. If you are still watching the stream hes not doing great against this shin but that is just the first round.

Yeah imo he kind of fell apart and started making mistakes that got him punished and even he knew it. This makes me feel it's a lot of matchup inexperience like he constinuously tried to side dodge>Gb the backflips. But Shin is definitely good but not busted. Although only time will tell if and how people might be able to punish his dbl dash and backflips and whatnot with different characters. As I said certain character may have a much tougher time against him than others and that's unfortunate but this is nothing new in games where character balance is concerned. But Shin definitely needs some time to settle before they make any changes to him if they are even needed.

Unlike cent who is not all that good in 1v1 but completely busted in teams. This guy needs some tweaking for sure but right now it's too early to jump on the "shin broken op nerf omg" train.

The thing is Shin is actually able to attack without putting himself at ridiculous risk. At least that's what it seems so far and why some people love to hate him, but you should be able to attack in some fashion without threat of being punished heavily otherwise we will be stuck in the hated turtle meta forever. More characters should be able to go on the offensive like this and would make the game much more interesting and less turtle lame.

But as I said we won't know how punishable shin is until people experiment more instead of complaining. Some character, even lower tier character smight be better against him than others. But I know those with large aoe, fast zones can do pretty well against him. The only problem here is zone takes a lot of stam and the kick also deals stam damage and this is why I think the stam damage should be nerfed.

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 02:19 AM
-His mixups are all reactable or avoidable. Only actualy mixup is dbl dash kick/GB

-No different thank PK or Orochi, Pk is actually faster outside super sprint and Shin actually struggles to catch up to PK in super sprint

-Nowhere near as good as shug oni charge was. Knockdown does not last nearly as long and you get up almost instantly. It can't environmental kill and costs a ton of stamina also hit's allies and can't be used to chase and catch people on the run. The dbl lights shin gets off it are comparable in damage to many other characters normal running attacks. Also believe it has no armor so it can be stopped, not 100% on this but I have been hit out of it before sliding under someone more than once.

-Ranged attacks are blockable and parriable the same as regular attacks. Pretty much useless in 1v1 and easy enough to hold your guard in the shin's direction in 2v1s. The ranged GB I would agree might be a bit OP as it's very hard to react to in 2v1's if he is offscreen. But again the ranged GB is pretty much useless in 1v1.

-Not safe, learn to punish it pre-emptively. If you haven't been doing this then that is your fault. It won't work all the time(sometimes it will trade with the kick and sometimes it will beat the kick and stop it from coming out) but if it was easy to punish this move it would be useless and way too risky for him to use. Doing so also completely counters the kick/GB 50/50.

- Not nearly as fast as you probably think and see above.

Also his health does make a large difference in teams. 1 LB impale from the side or a anything like that and you are pretty much dead guaranteed. 1v1 maybe not so much but this game is not and probbaly never will be designed as a 1v1 game primarily.

I would also note that the kick probably does too much stamina damage and could use a nerf here. Anything else and they risk turning the tool into something he can never risk using.


1) like all mixups, except shinobi has A LOT of them

2) pk is broken, so any cmparison is invalid

3)Ranged attack can be spammed, and should not exist in that game, is like having a pistol in a platform game, out of context

4)Yeah ofc is punishable sherlock, the problem is, that want it or not, he has superior moveset.

5)Impale from the side ? LOL

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 02:22 AM
Yeah imo he kind of fell apart and started making mistakes that got him punished and even he knew it. This makes me feel it's a lot of matchup inexperience like he constinuously tried to side dodge>Gb the backflips. But Shin is definitely good but not busted. Although only time will tell if and how people might be able to punish his dbl dash and backflips and whatnot with different characters. As I said certain character may have a much tougher time against him than others and that's unfortunate but this is nothing new in games where character balance is concerned. But Shin definitely needs some time to settle before they make any changes to him if they are even needed.

Unlike cent who is not all that good in 1v1 but completely busted in teams. This guy needs some tweaking for sure but right now it's too early to jump on the "shin broken op nerf omg" train.

Im not saying he is broken but I do think He is an extremely safe character with good matchups since a good chunk of the cast cant punish the kick. I do think hes on warlords level but perhaps your right and we dont know something yet. People werent using the oni charge into heavy 50/50 right off the bat, it had been a month or two before it become a staple in tournies and maybe we will find some weakness in shin. I doubt it though. I think awhile ago you said taking away the hyper armor from the kick would make it useless and to some degree i think you are right, but not completely because that will still give the chance that the shin will just bait the parry so you cant always rely on trying to hit him before the kick. We will just have to see what happens and the balance changes ubi makes.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 02:24 AM
1) like all mixups, except shinobi has A LOT of them

2) pk is broken, so any cmparison is invalid

3)Ranged attack can be spammed, and should not exist in that game, is like having a pistol in a platform game, out of context

4)Yeah ofc is punishable sherlock, the problem is, that want it or not, he has superior moveset.

5)Impale from the side ? LOL

have to admit number 5 is a bit silly since its easily blocked/parried by anyone with the smallest amount of skill unless of course you mean from parry which is still inconsistent

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 02:26 AM
have to admit number 5 is a bit silly since its easily blocked/parried by anyone with the smallest amount of skill unless of course you mean from parry which is still inconsistent

Apparently the counter to shins, is when you hit them from behind. So the class is balanced.kappa

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 02:30 AM
1) like all mixups, except shinobi has A LOT of them

2) pk is broken, so any cmparison is invalid

3)Ranged attack can be spammed, and should not exist in that game, is like having a pistol in a platform game, out of context

4)Yeah ofc is punishable sherlock, the problem is, that want it or not, he has superior moveset.

5)Impale from the side ? LOL

1) Having more mixups does not mean they are better lol. Also What you call mixups are probably just a larger variety of move chains. These aren;t really mixups just options. A mixup implies an opponent is stuck in the situation and has to deal with it and maybe guess to properly defend against it. The only thing shin has like this is the kick/GB mixup. Also characters should all have extensive movelists even greater than shins to provide much more depth to the game.

2)Pk is not broken, if you play on console I feel for you but either way for the comparison of run speed I also compared to rochi so this is really a non issue. Assassins are faster than most. Zerker should be faster. Still a non-issue.

3)Everything can be spammed and if you are paying attention these attacks are just as easy to block as regular attacks. You may eat one in a 2v1 if he is offscreen and you didn't know he was there. But you can keep your guard in his direction easy enough just like normal in 2v1's it isn't a big deal.

4)This sentence was almost unintelligible lol. But if a move is punishable and you agree I don't see the problem here. Also WL has a superior moveset to most as well, it's also quite extensive. So this isn't unheard of in this game, sorry if your character of choices moveset isn't to your liking but that is no reason to hate anothers. Ask for your character to be buffed not nerf others.

5) Not even sure what you are trying to say here.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 02:32 AM
Apparently the counter to shins, is when you hit them from behind. So the class is balanced.kappa

well if you look at captain on fhtracker he seems to be a fairly competant player. Yes of course you can pad stats but I noticed hes a nobu which may actually be a good counter to shin. I know in the last tournie the winner was a nobu facing off against a shin and the shin lost. I dont think his advice is terrible but I also dont think hes placing shin on the tier list where he actually falls.

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 02:36 AM
have to admit number 5 is a bit silly since its easily blocked/parried by anyone with the smallest amount of skill unless of course you mean from parry which is still inconsistent

This point was more in a teamfight scenario. Obviously if you get hit by an impale that isnt off parry in 1v1 then that shows an obvious lack of skill. I was saying that his health may not be as much of an issue in 1v1, which it is. In teams his health allows him to be killed instanlty if caught by any kind of cc from offscreen if you're unaware of their presence. LB impale was just an example, I went on to further say that this game was never designed with 1v1 as a primary focus so team fight scenarios and 4v4 is where the characters are balanced and designed for. 1v1 balance will always be a fleeting issue for this game, some people want it but that was never UBI's vision for the game. It may get better in the future, but like I said it's pretty common that characters are great in teams but not so good in 1v1. Similar to cent, also like LB,Shugo, valk. All great characters in teams but not very good in 1v1 compared to others.

Antonioj26
06-03-2017, 02:38 AM
This point was more in a teamfight scenario. Obviously if you get hit by an impale that isnt off parry in 1v1 then that shows an obvious lack of skill. I was saying that his health may not be as much of an issue in 1v1, which it is. In teams his health allows him to be killed instanlty if caught by any kind of cc from offscreen if you're unaware of their presence. LB impale was just an example, I went on to further say that this game was never designed with 1v1 as a primary focus so team fight scenarios and 4v4 is where the characters are balanced and designed for. 1v1 balance will always be a fleeting issue for this game, some people want it but that was never UBI's vision for the game. It may get better in the future, but like I said it's pretty common that characters are great in teams but not so good in 1v1. Similar to cent, also like LB,Shugo, valk. All great characters in teams but not very good in 1v1 compared to others.


well if your perspective is from 4s then I would agree with you that hes upper mid tier. I was solely talking from a 1v1 stand point.

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 02:41 AM
well if you look at captain on fhtracker he seems to be a fairly competant player. Yes of course you can pad stats but I noticed hes a nobu which may actually be a good counter to shin. I know in the last tournie the winner was a nobu facing off against a shin and the shin lost. I dont think his advice is terrible but I also dont think hes placing shin on the tier list where he actually falls.

That's possible I am just trying to say for shin in particular it's a little early to jump on him and call him OP. He may very well be as people get better and more solid playing him. But also people might find ways to punish him and build muscle memory to react properly to his stuff. So all I am saying is people need to give it some time. Even nobushi had weeks of hate in the beta's and early release and look where she is now, on the loist for buffs in the future lol.

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 02:58 AM
well if your perspective is from 4s then I would agree with you that hes upper mid tier. I was solely talking from a 1v1 stand point.

He has the oni cheese run 2.0

The headbutt 2.0


In 4v4 is completely broken. Nobosy cares in 1v1, theres no 1v1, in for honor. Not on this meta, where only 4 characters can stand their ground

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 03:02 AM
He has the oni cheese run 2.0

The headbutt 2.0


In 4v4 is completely broken. Nobosy cares in 1v1, theres no 1v1, in for honor.

Then you are just being closed minded and prefer to complain instead of adapt. Cause I would agree with anton that shin in 1v1 could very well be top tier WL lvl of good. But if people figure some stuff out he could easily drop a tier. In 4v4 his health keeps him from being too OP for sure, other than that his kick which you equate to headbutt isn't really any worse than all the other unblockable spam already in the game which is where cent is now king anyways. The one thing like I said that probably is OP is the stam damage which again cent is much better since each unblockable stuns which saps your stam.

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 03:11 AM
Then you are just being closed minded and prefer to complain instead of adapt. Cause I would agree with anton that shin in 1v1 could very well be top tier WL lvl of good. But if people figure some stuff out he could easily drop a tier. In 4v4 his health keeps him from being too OP for sure, other than that his kick which you equate to headbutt isn't really any worse than all the other unblockable spam already in the game which is where cent is now king anyways. The one thing like I said that probably is OP is the stam damage which again cent is much better since each unblockable stuns which saps your stam.



Centurion is nothing if compared with shinobi, even in 4v4.

Ranged GB spam, kick spam, you cannot do nothing, at least i can run from centurions.

But you cannot escape from the weeb king.

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 03:18 AM
Then you are just being closed minded and prefer to complain instead of adapt. Cause I would agree with anton that shin in 1v1 could very well be top tier WL lvl of good. But if people figure some stuff out he could easily drop a tier. In 4v4 his health keeps him from being too OP for sure, other than that his kick which you equate to headbutt isn't really any worse than all the other unblockable spam already in the game which is where cent is now king anyways. The one thing like I said that probably is OP is the stam damage which again cent is much better since each unblockable stuns which saps your stam.



Centurion is nothing if compared with shinobi, even in 4v4.

Ranged GB spam, kick spam, you cannot do nothing, at least i can run from centurions.

But you cannot escape from the weeb king.

CaptainPwnet
06-03-2017, 03:21 AM
Centurion is nothing if compared with shinobi, even in 4v4.

Ranged GB spam, kick spam, you cannot do nothing, at least i can run from centurions.

But you cannot escape from the weeb king.

This just shows your bias. Centurions completely remove your ability to defend yourself with a single touch in team fights. Even through revenge there is nothing you can do. Shinobi doesn't give 2-4 heavies each from allies on a single attack from him that also is not revenge parryable. The knockdown is ridiculously long and thanks to the UBI cinematic touch given to this move allows for a ridiculous amount of ally attacks to land before you are able to defend yourself again. Cent tier 4 shield is an easy game winning feat regardless of positioning or targetting. Just use it and win, 2 cents on a team with this feat is unbeatable without at least 1 cent on your team as well. Extra damage from haymaker feat makes his damage monstrous in 4v4, his pugio is again an instant unreactable kill forget longbow, it's even faster than valk spear toss. . . Every unblockable besides the charged heavy has a stun on it which in team fights is ridiculous. All other stunning attacks in the game are blockable or heavily telepgraphed and often require some lead up to use them besides just dash>kick, or attack(blocked or not)>punch.

Yeah Shin does not even compare to cent for levels of OP broken in 4v4.

Netcode_err_404
06-03-2017, 04:17 AM
This just shows your bias. Centurions completely remove your ability to defend yourself with a single touch in team fights. Even through revenge there is nothing you can do. Shinobi doesn't give 2-4 heavies each from allies on a single attack from him that also is not revenge parryable. The knockdown is ridiculously long and thanks to the UBI cinematic touch given to this move allows for a ridiculous amount of ally attacks to land before you are able to defend yourself again. Cent tier 4 shield is an easy game winning feat regardless of positioning or targetting. Just use it and win, 2 cents on a team with this feat is unbeatable without at least 1 cent on your team as well. Extra damage from haymaker feat makes his damage monstrous in 4v4, his pugio is again an instant unreactable kill forget longbow, it's even faster than valk spear toss. . . Every unblockable besides the charged heavy has a stun on it which in team fights is ridiculous. All other stunning attacks in the game are blockable or heavily telepgraphed and often require some lead up to use them besides just dash>kick, or attack(blocked or not)>punch.

Yeah Shin does not even compare to cent for levels of OP broken in 4v4.

Kick spam + 2-3 shinobis = End game.

No counter play

No running away.



So, claiming that they are fine, is just a big BS, both new characters, don't belong to this game-.

Thay are vanilla most broken classes, mark 2.


Out of context, and both ignore some basic gameplay fundamentals.