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View Full Version : Question for next Warrior's Den : % Character representation



We.the.North
05-27-2017, 08:16 PM
Alright, the novelty of the new characters should start to fall off a little. Shinobi numbers certainly got down ... but centurions are still at an all time high, often making up to 50% of the player base in each Dominion matches I play.

My questions for the next Warrior's Den is :

1. Do you look at the % of time characters are used in each game mode ?

2. At which point do you think there is a problem when a character is over represented (like Centurion in Dominion at the moment) ?

3. Why do you think we are still seeing as many Centurion as we're seeing right now 2 weeks after release ?
(No, the Centurion is not "new" anymore seeing how Shinobi numbers are already way down in comparison)

4. Is there anything, anything at all, being considered to make the number of Centurions go down a little ? Possible nerfs to the centurion or revamp of basic heroes ? Sooner than later ?


I did hear from last Warrior's Den that they are working on a way to add a "small window" of opportunity to escape 2 centurion Stun Locking you. Unfortunately, I for one believe that change will have little to no impact on the number of centurion we're seeing in Dominion. Their 1v1 kit is still problematic with their ungodly tracking and the quality of "punish" they can do. So, to decrease the number of centurions, we either need to nerf his kit or make other characters interesting again.

Vasher.
05-27-2017, 08:29 PM
The answer to all your questions (Raider main, but Cent Rep 5) is that the Cent is easy...he literally does not have a lot of moves in his pocket book but the moves he does have are easy to perform and very rewarding. Once he lands that charged heavy it's not hard to bring a guy down 3/4 of his health.

Devs will address the Dominion gankfest soon I think.

We.the.North
05-27-2017, 08:35 PM
Devs will address the Dominion gankfest soon I think.

I sure hope so ... because between the Warden Glitch one shotting people and the Mass Centurion Gank Fest, the game has gone to s.h.i.t. at the moment.


Once he lands that charged heavy it's not hard to bring a guy down 3/4 of his health.

Seeing how he doesn't have Shinobi's Health, yet he outdamages it severely, is beyond me from a Designer point of view. I can't wait for him (and really hope so) to receive the Valkyrie Treatment when she was over-nerfed beyond unplayable.

Hell, he even sprint as fast as a Shinobi going in and out of double sprint mode. When I play Shinobi, I can barely pass my teamate Centurions at the beginning of the game when we're all sprinting forward.


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Altho I'm quite salty about Centurion, this wasn't a post about nerf / buff and such even tho the easy fix is often to buff / nerf something. The post is about character % of representation and how it's looked at. Centurion is making a very large number in terms of % of the whole Dominion population. So large that it basically kills variety in games.

I know Ubisoft wants all their characters to be used, so why are there so many Centurion and how can we change that ??

Sam_Wise0013
05-27-2017, 08:47 PM
Sound like you are just whineing because you cant figure out how to dodge kicks and parry unblockable? Centurion as fast as shinobi? Are you really saying that? There are still alot of shinobi being played, more centurion because he is easier but did the %80 warden population not exist before season 2? Youre asking how to make less people play a character you dont like...That is absurd.

CandleInTheDark
05-27-2017, 08:51 PM
The devs said they were looking at a way to prevent two centurions perma stunlocking you between them on the last den.1v1 I have found centurion's kicks easy enough to dodge as a nobushi out of stamina (so without the hidden stance which works only for that character) and that isn't exactly the quickest of dodges, you have to learn to read when it is coming through their own dodge..I believe kicks always come from their right and punches from their left (so opposite direction as you are looking at it) which also helps.

---edit---

The punch might vary given they hold the sword in different hands to reflect their guard stance.

We.the.North
05-27-2017, 09:14 PM
https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/Sam_Wise0013/heroes
vs
https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/We.the.North/heroes

Please, before you throw "get good" comments, try to look beyond the obvious counter to a move and actually consider if that move (when compared to other similar moves with the same counter) isn't actually overpowered and then, you'd realise there is ground to talk about. Throwing "just dodge" comments adds nothing to the balancing of the overall game taken as a whole.

Regarding the whole "learn to dodge", you really have to look pass that because in For Honor, many "deadly moves" needs to be dodged to avoid them. Yet, the problem is as follow : Take all those "just dodge it" moves from all the different characters in the game and compare them together, you'll see the centurion "just dodge it" move is by far superior to other "just dodge it move" by having superior tracking, superior reach and superior total damage output. That would be fine if the Centurion had weaknesses elsewhere ... but right now, the benefits far outweights the weaknesses he has.

Regarding the 80% warden population : Vortex was nerfed. I'm seeing way less Wardens now. I guess they migrated to the next broken thing : Centurions. Yes, there will always be a "S Tier" to ***** about, doesn't mean the *****ing isn't justified. Balancing is a cycle and in time, a player can only hope the characters "power level" in a game will stabilize and I know that process is long and hard because of how complex the meta game is. So ya, Warden powerlevel was too high and it got nerfed. Number of Wardens is down. Next one targeted should probably be Centurion. I just want ot know how he's being looked at.

@Candle : Yep, I did say in my original post the developpers were looking at the 2 centurions stunlock. I also said that solution wasn't going to make a difference in terms of % of Centurions being played because most centurion just like how OP his kit is at the moment and dont consider whether or not another centurion is on their team before they pick him. Thus, that solution, while helpful to remove some of the salt we get facing centurion, is not going to bring down their number one bit.

TLDR : Centurion is overpowered (in my eyes) but that's not my biggest issue at the moment. It's the fact half the player base in dominion is playing him, killing variety in the games that bugs me.

CandleInTheDark
05-27-2017, 09:30 PM
Regarding the whole "learn to dodge", you really have to look pass that because in For Honor, many "deadly moves" needs to be dodged to avoid them. Yet, the problem is as follow : Take all those "just dodge it" moves from all the different characters in the game and compare them together, you'll see the centurion "just dodge it" move is by far superior to other "just dodge it move" by having superior tracking, superior reach and superior total damage output.

Regarding the 80% warden population : Vortex was nerfed. I'm seeing way less Wardens now. I guess they migrated to the next broken thing : Centurions. Yes, there will always be a "S Tier" to ***** about, doesn't mean the *****ing isn't justified.

@Candle : Yep, I did say in my original post the developpers were looking at the 2 centurions stunlock. I also said that solution wasn't going to make a difference in terms of % of Centurions being played because most centurion just like how OP his kit is at the moment and dont consider whether or not another centurion is on their team before they pick him. Thus, that solution, while helpful to remove some of the salt we get facing centurion, is not going to bring down their number one bit.

TLDR : Centurion is overpowered (in my eyes) but that's not my biggest issue at the moment. It's the fact half the player base in dominion is playing him, killing variety in the games that bugs me.

I would say the shinobi's kick is harder to deal with and I quite like the shinobi, others might find it different, you need to bear in mind I use characters with dodge attacks. If a warlord does his headbutt or charging attack, I get a free attack on him if I dodge, if a conq misses, I have initiative, same with warden, nobushi and I have even found the same with a centurion, this is not the case for shinobi, I have to learn instead to, after a dodge, which usually means my turn to attack, parry or cgb the follow up. Now I am not saying this is a bad thing, it is a different mindset is all and I think this is why people struggle, I would even say it is borderline ok because of that healthpool, it is just a challenge to learn to deal with (and one I am enjoying to be fair).

Honestly, the only way I see to discourage people from picking a character by changing the character is to nerf him into the ground to the point only the people who want to play him because they think the concept is cool will do so, I do not think this is a great idea. What I would prefer to see is to make positive changes to the meta (which is the next patch so we will need to see how it is then) and to other characters to make them more attractive. Sometimes that means buffs, sometimes it can be a little thing. For example while I will always main the peacekeeper, until yesterday I hadn't touched the nobushi since february or march because the console had an issue that the hidden stance was difficult to activate and maintain, I came back now some time after they fixed it to it is the same angle as the allblock moves and it is much more enjoyable to me now that I can actually use hidden stance to evade attacks when my timing is right and I can read what the player is about to do (such as a nobushi coming out of hidden stance or a peacekeeper top heavy, I've HS'd them both).

We.the.North
05-27-2017, 09:53 PM
I would say the shinobi's kick is harder to deal with

I agree. I am also in favor of nerfing the Shinobi kick. My favorite solution given by others on this forum is to remove the Hyper Armor from it. Thus, attacking a Shinobi while he kicks you would stagger him and he wouldn't be able to ranged attack you while you are staggered.

Returning to the other points I was making about the "just dodge". You could say the Shinobi kick and the Centurion charged heavy are both "just dodge" moves. Shinobi ranged attack after the kick is nowhere as strong as the Centurion charged heavy combo. I'll give it to you, the centurion charged heavy is way easier to dodge, making it a "weakness" of the move. But that weakness is nowhere big enough to justify how strong the full combo is.


What I would prefer to see is to make positive changes to the meta (which is the next patch so we will need to see how it is then) and to other characters to make them more attractive.

That would also be what I would prefer. That's why my questions aren't about whether or not the Centurion is going to be nerfed or not. It's about if they think the % of players who play centurion is too big and what they intend to do about it, whatever it is.

CandleInTheDark
05-27-2017, 10:17 PM
I agree. I am also in favor of nerfing the Shinobi kick. My favorite solution given by others on this forum is to remove the Hyper Armor from it. Thus, attacking a Shinobi while he kicks you would stagger him and he wouldn't be able to ranged attack you while you are staggered.

Returning to the other points I was making about the "just dodge". You could say the Shinobi kick and the Centurion charged heavy are both "just dodge" moves. Shinobi ranged attack after the kick is nowhere as strong as the Centurion charged heavy combo. I'll give it to you, the centurion charged heavy is way easier to dodge, making it a "weakness" of the move. But that weakness is nowhere big enough to justify how strong the full combo is.



That would also be what I would prefer. That's why my questions aren't about whether or not the Centurion is going to be nerfed or not. It's about if they think the % of players who play centurion is too big and what they intend to do about it, whatever it is.

Ah, mmk, with that reasoning that is a fair enough question.

UbiJurassic
05-28-2017, 12:42 AM
I sure hope so ... because between the Warden Glitch one shotting people and the Mass Centurion Gank Fest, the game has gone to s.h.i.t. at the moment.



Seeing how he doesn't have Shinobi's Health, yet he outdamages it severely, is beyond me from a Designer point of view. I can't wait for him (and really hope so) to receive the Valkyrie Treatment when she was over-nerfed beyond unplayable.

Hell, he even sprint as fast as a Shinobi going in and out of double sprint mode. When I play Shinobi, I can barely pass my teamate Centurions at the beginning of the game when we're all sprinting forward.


--------------------------------------------------

Altho I'm quite salty about Centurion, this wasn't a post about nerf / buff and such even tho the easy fix is often to buff / nerf something. The post is about character % of representation and how it's looked at. Centurion is making a very large number in terms of % of the whole Dominion population. So large that it basically kills variety in games.

I know Ubisoft wants all their characters to be used, so why are there so many Centurion and how can we change that ??

Thanks for the questions, We.theNorth. I'll make sure they get forwarded to the right people for consideration on the next stream. :)