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Knight_Raime
05-27-2017, 06:28 PM
The point of this thread is to Talk about the Shinobi and understand why he's both good and bad. but if you really want a tldr it's this: "Shinobi is "bad" because he doesn't fit into current for honor."

In my opinion Shinobi was designed very well. For several reasons. It's the most fleshed out kit in the game. It has a theme that actually made it off of paper and into the game properly. It's a kit that actually properly works with aggression. and unlike the rest of the heros playing defensive or "turtling" isn't super powerful on shinobi. His ranged attacks are easily blocked. His guard decays too quickly to be used even some what passively. And his kick can't be used passively in close range because he'll be guard broken before the kick can even happen.

That being said his design completely breaks the game. He dictates both the range of the fight but the pace of it from start to finish. No other hero in the game can legit go on the offense to fight shin. If he doesn't want to fight he doesn't have to. Further more because he's able to do so much from neutral you can't actually force the shinobi into a situation that lets you consistently punish him. There are 7 heros at this moment that can punish either his whiffed kick into heavy or whiffed kick into backflip. and of those 7 3 maybe 4 of them can punish both of those.

If that wasn't bad enough his kick takes priority over all other unblockable bashes. He's got practically no recovery time for his entire kit. a lot of his kit doesn't require a landed hit. his wake up is so good his actions will probably go out before you can. meaning punishing even his ranged attacks could still end up in shins favor. IN short the shin rarely has to commit. and nearly anything you can punish him on is not consistent or available enough. (not to mention punishing his zone is practically not possible.)

The balance the devs attempted with him was giving him the lowest health pool, making a majority of his kit unsafe (meaning it's not guarenteed,) being stamina intensive, and having low ish damage. Which. On paper. is enough. But in practice with the current for honor it's not enough. I can understand why the devs are hesitant to nerf his kick. It's still my personal stance that it should be nerfed. But I get why they don't want to jump on it. They kind of wrote themselves into a wall with his kit's design. Basically shin doesn't have to commit ever.

Do we nerf the one decent kit in the whole game? Or do we make the game better? It seems the devs are going the other route and trying to address the defensive meta. Though if i'm honest...The rest of the kits need to be MASSIVELY looked over in order for shin to fit. The only "safe" nerf I think that exists for shin at the moment is adding recovery. this would mean his ranged attacks unless at max range would be far easier to punish. It would mean randomly thrown/spammed kicks would be more punishable by most of the cast. It would of course make the Shin more hesitant to engage. and IMO that's fine.

All I know is that at least until the base kits get better in the aggression department Shinobi will continue to be frustrating for anyone who plays.
I'd like to hear other people's thoughts. Do you think he needs a nerf? if yes how would you nerf him without ruining the kit? How would you make the game better so Shin can fit in?

Vingrask
05-27-2017, 06:55 PM
First, quoting myself from another topic:


Dueling as Shinobi, I won the first round and saw players quit without even use the kick. Nerf the kick, people will still complain because they are lazy. I even made other Shinobis quit!

And I lost for players who know how to turtle and screw any attempt I do.

The big problem with Shinobi is that everything he does can be easy countered and punished. Not by the lazy players, of course, but by those who really learned the game. It is so hard indeed to catch the Shinobi which players tend to wait, and be the one in danger all the time, risking being punished while attack, is exhaustive.

Even a failed kick offering a backflip to retreat, the match enter in a stalemate, because nothing works for any side. Since I'm the one who don't give a **** for just win, I'm the one being punished for try different moves and approuches. I do not count the bad players who cowardly stay back and are easy targets, but those who know how to turtle and punish. You try the kick, they dodge. You try fake a kick and GB, you get the heavy, next time they will try trade damage with you, and you, as Shinobi, will lose the fight if keep trading.

I would trade the armor of the kick or the guaranteed heavy anytime just for another tool to open up a turtle, like be able to do real feints. At the end, I enter in the same situations as Shinobi as with my Berserker.

Now, everything you said is a one sided point of view.

I understand how annoying is do not be able to catch someone. It's like playing against the good Nobushis out there. What about the Lawbringer who never parry, making feint useless, and push you every block? Different ways to see the same problem: you can't touch the enemy and it is frustrating.

When you put yourself on the other side, you can see the limitations and why the things happen as they happen. Shinobi don't do much damage without hit a heavy or the full combo, Lawbringer's attack is slow, etc. The entire kit of Shinobi is risky, except the kick if the enemy didn't decide to trade damage. With so little life pool and base defense, Shinobi needs the retreat options. He dictate the pace of the fight because his damn agility? Yes, as a Warden dictate the pace of a fight with his shoulders or a Valkyrie with her fast lights and vortexes. The same way you can't risk yourself too much against a Shugoki or Centurion.

If one move change in Shinobi's kit, like devs said, a lot of things will need to change. You can't imagine how frustrating is for me not be able to do anything when the enemy counter all my moves and doesn't commit themselves to attack. It's not like only the Shinobi "doesn't commit", nobody in the fight does: me, because everything I do is easy to counter, my enemy because he/she is facing the better counter attacker of the game.
Even so, players who just walk foward and feint give me fun and hard fights. When they manage to corner me the things get really intense.

One of the big problems I see on the weak enemies is because they do not try. They stay away, probably crying, and do nothing but defend themselves or try moves without thinking, like Shinobi isn't different from anything else in the game. They are so easy that I see no fun. There is no challenge.

Against a Shinobi you need to pressure. Pay attention, counter everything he/she does, and keep walking foward, looking the terrain, trying close the gap. After that, the backflip will lead to nowhere, the double dodge can't be used and now you have a light weight enemy right in front of you.

I do not disagree something need to be done. Shinobi and Centurion are new, For Honor is a ever changing game, but all the cry, all the overreaction are just it, tears and screams.

Knight_Raime
05-27-2017, 07:26 PM
First, quoting myself from another topic:



Now, everything you said is a one sided point of view.

I understand how annoying is do not be able to catch someone. It's like playing against the good Nobushis out there. What about the Lawbringer who never parry, making feint useless, and push you every block? Different ways to see the same problem: you can't touch the enemy and it is frustrating.

When you put yourself on the other side, you can see the limitations and why the things happen as they happen. Shinobi don't do much damage without hit a heavy or the full combo, Lawbringer's attack is slow, etc. The entire kit of Shinobi is risky, except the kick if the enemy didn't decide to trade damage. With so little life pool and base defense, Shinobi needs the retreat options. He dictate the pace of the fight because his damn agility? Yes, as a Warden dictate the pace of a fight with his shoulders or a Valkyrie with her fast lights and vortexes. The same way you can't risk yourself too much against a Shugoki or Centurion.

If one move change in Shinobi's kit, like devs said, a lot of things will need to change. You can't imagine how frustrating is for me not be able to do anything when the enemy counter all my moves and doesn't commit themselves to attack. It's not like only the Shinobi "doesn't commit", nobody in the fight does: me, because everything I do is easy to counter, my enemy because he/she is facing the better counter attacker of the game.
Even so, players who just walk foward and feint give me fun and hard fights. When they manage to corner me the things get really intense.

One of the big problems I see on the weak enemies is because they do not try. They stay away, probably crying, and do nothing but defend themselves or try moves without thinking, like Shinobi isn't different from anything else in the game. They are so easy that I see no fun. There is no challenge.

Against a Shinobi you need to pressure. Pay attention, counter everything he/she does, and keep walking foward, looking the terrain, trying close the gap. After that, the backflip will lead to nowhere, the double dodge can't be used and now you have a light weight enemy right in front of you.

I do not disagree something need to be done. Shinobi and Centurion are new, For Honor is a ever changing game, but all the cry, all the overreaction are just it, tears and screams.

Perhaps You're getting the wrong feel from my post. I don't want him nerfed into the ground. Nor am I saying it is impossible to beat a shin. I'm well aware of what his kit can and cannot do. I've played him a good amount and I wrote up a beginners guide on him which addressed the tools in his kit, gave some light to little known things about the kit. and some basic match up info against specific heros.

I disagree about you saying no one has to commit. shin can cancel everything he does save light light. if his kick misses or lands he can back flip. He's the only kit in the game where he can do most things without having to confirm a hit. The most non commital thing other classes can do is with their heavy/zone. nobushi and conq are the only 2 who can "feint" their lights and their heavies. But in general if they do an action it has to happen. (baring those 2.) and now shin.
I agree he needs escape tools. he needs range. he needs mobility. I just feel like at the current moment he's got a little too much. it's technically incorrect to say the fight resumes to neutral if he back flips. since you can get both a free charged heavy or a free charged GB after a flip. Going back to neutral from an evasive move is only real in the form of the double back roll.

You are correct that most of his kit is punishable. The point though is that since it all starts from neutral and he can mix his entire kit basically into and onto itself there isn't a reliable way to force a shin into anything. You can't initiate against a shin. he'll just double dodge away until he's ready to do something. Warden doesn't dictate the fight with his shoulders. they don't have range. and he's only got 2 options unless you are overly aggresive. than parry is an option. either way. Same with valk. Shin has range AND mobility. which is why he dictates the fight.

I would really like to see who you fight. because Whenever I play shinobi The only time I lose is if I rely too much on one thing. If i'm constantly changing what i'm doing I haven't lost. Versus when I play against a shinobi the only time they beat me is If I try to parry literally all their ranged attempts. If I sit back and dodge their kicks/trade (depending with who i'm playing as) and just block their ranged options I really don't lose. I've fought 2 maybe 3 decent shinobi who not only use their full kit. but they change everything all the time. The engagement distance. what they follow up with and when. etc.

I will redirect my post to this last statement here: "i'm not asking for him to be nerfed hard. Nor am I saying he's broken. I'm merely stating that his design doesn't fit into how for honor plays currently. and that's why he can be considered a problem."

pancakerz
05-27-2017, 08:41 PM
I've been playing Shinobi quite a bit since the public release, and I've found that I have more fun if I just ignore all of the stupid things like ranged attacks and kicks (pretty much play like a PK I guess). It makes him feel more like he actually fits into the game properly, instead of a silly turtle monster. The only problem is his heavy is slow as sin, and getting 2 heavies in a row for the combo attack is damn near impossible. I think what he needed was more love for the deflect, and less love for the ranged attacks.

These new characters with their devastating chain attacks just feel like they don't really fit the design philosophy that most of the other characters fit into imo.

We.the.North
05-27-2017, 11:42 PM
These new characters with their devastating chain attacks

What chain attacks does the Shinobi has ?? Shinobi has one follow up after each of his different kicks that doesn't do damage. Remember, the kick by itself does NO damage and thus, all the "combos" are relatively weak, even the Sickle Rain mix up (with a single hvy after a ranged GB). Afterward, everything can be stopped. A double dash + ranged hvy does 25 damage. That's hardly game breaking. Granted, it's very hard to stop him, but the low damage output makes it fair. Even if Shinobi does this successfully 3-4 times, Shinobi still has the incredibly big weakness of being complete trash when outnumbered 2vs1 (way more squishy and no real tools in his kit to deal with that kind of situation, outside of procing revenge which can be hard when you get 2-3 shotted). In 2v1, the double dash + ranged hvy will lock you in place long enough for the other guy to punish you hard, way harder than the 25 damage you just did.

In my eyes, in a 4v4 game, Shinobi is in a good place right now. But he might be a little over the top in duels, I'll agree to that ... but not by much.

It's not like a Centurion with Haymaker Feat doing 30 + 20 + 35 = 85 damage from a single charged heavy combo. Now THAT is overpowered stupid.

UbiJurassic
05-28-2017, 12:29 AM
The point of this thread is to Talk about the Shinobi and understand why he's both good and bad. but if you really want a tldr it's this: "Shinobi is "bad" because he doesn't fit into current for honor."

In my opinion Shinobi was designed very well. For several reasons. It's the most fleshed out kit in the game. It has a theme that actually made it off of paper and into the game properly. It's a kit that actually properly works with aggression. and unlike the rest of the heros playing defensive or "turtling" isn't super powerful on shinobi. His ranged attacks are easily blocked. His guard decays too quickly to be used even some what passively. And his kick can't be used passively in close range because he'll be guard broken before the kick can even happen.

That being said his design completely breaks the game. He dictates both the range of the fight but the pace of it from start to finish. No other hero in the game can legit go on the offense to fight shin. If he doesn't want to fight he doesn't have to. Further more because he's able to do so much from neutral you can't actually force the shinobi into a situation that lets you consistently punish him. There are 7 heros at this moment that can punish either his whiffed kick into heavy or whiffed kick into backflip. and of those 7 3 maybe 4 of them can punish both of those.

If that wasn't bad enough his kick takes priority over all other unblockable bashes. He's got practically no recovery time for his entire kit. a lot of his kit doesn't require a landed hit. his wake up is so good his actions will probably go out before you can. meaning punishing even his ranged attacks could still end up in shins favor. IN short the shin rarely has to commit. and nearly anything you can punish him on is not consistent or available enough. (not to mention punishing his zone is practically not possible.)

The balance the devs attempted with him was giving him the lowest health pool, making a majority of his kit unsafe (meaning it's not guarenteed,) being stamina intensive, and having low ish damage. Which. On paper. is enough. But in practice with the current for honor it's not enough. I can understand why the devs are hesitant to nerf his kick. It's still my personal stance that it should be nerfed. But I get why they don't want to jump on it. They kind of wrote themselves into a wall with his kit's design. Basically shin doesn't have to commit ever.

Do we nerf the one decent kit in the whole game? Or do we make the game better? It seems the devs are going the other route and trying to address the defensive meta. Though if i'm honest...The rest of the kits need to be MASSIVELY looked over in order for shin to fit. The only "safe" nerf I think that exists for shin at the moment is adding recovery. this would mean his ranged attacks unless at max range would be far easier to punish. It would mean randomly thrown/spammed kicks would be more punishable by most of the cast. It would of course make the Shin more hesitant to engage. and IMO that's fine.

All I know is that at least until the base kits get better in the aggression department Shinobi will continue to be frustrating for anyone who plays.
I'd like to hear other people's thoughts. Do you think he needs a nerf? if yes how would you nerf him without ruining the kit? How would you make the game better so Shin can fit in?

Thanks for this great post! It's always great to get all-encompassing feedback on the good and bad of a hero in the game. Part of the hesitance to nerf Shinobi's kick right off the bat was because the calls for nerfs were coming before the entire community had the opportunity to try and understand the in's and out's of the Shinobi. Now that he's available to everyone, our team will start getting a more complete picture based on the increased feedback and data that has become available.

(Also nice DS2 reference in your name. Great boss, but I try to forget DS2 exists :p )

MasterChiefPON
05-28-2017, 01:08 AM
I agree with OP.

We.the.North
05-28-2017, 01:18 AM
I agree with OP.

And I disagree because the OP has a tunnel vision into 1v1 and fail to notice how horribly weak the Shinobi is in group fights. All it takes is for one character you are not focused on to flank the Shinobi and that Shinobi will start dodging around unable to kick anything because the person he doesn't kick would punish him harshly, while also getting dangerously close to out of stamina because to escape properly, that Shinobi would have to double dash which cost a lot of stamina. Not to mention in group battle, people pop revenge way more frequently and again, a single "auto parry" from revenge activation will knock the Shinobi on the ground and you can litteraly one shot him easily.

Shinobi is in a good place at the moment. The fast recovery makes sense considering his low hp. If you want him to be as punishable as the other characters in the game while still keeping his 90 hp, then you clearly just want that character gone entirely. remember, the damage output from his kit is quite low actually compared to other characters ... so let him keep his recovery ffs, he's already squishy enough.

Shinobi has fast recovery frames, Lawbringer has 150 hp, Conqueror has superior block, ... Characters need to be different for the game to be interesting.

CandleInTheDark
05-28-2017, 01:32 AM
And I disagree because the OP has a tunnel vision into 1v1 and fail to notice how horribly weak the Shinobi is in group fights. All it takes is for one character you are not focused on to flank the Shinobi and that Shinobi will start dodging around unable to kick anything because the person he doesn't kick would punish him harshly, while also getting dangerously close to out of stamina because to escape properly, that Shinobi would have to double dash which cost a lot of stamina. Not to mention in group battle, people pop revenge way more frequently and again, a single "auto parry" from revenge activation will knock the Shinobi on the ground and you can litteraly one shot him easily.

Shinobi is in a good place at the moment. The fast recovery makes sense considering his low hp. If you want him to be as punishable as the other characters in the game while still keeping his 90 hp, then you clearly just want that character gone entirely. remember, the damage output from his kit is quite low actually compared to other characters ... so let him keep his recovery ffs, he's already squishy enough.

Shinobi has fast recovery frames, Lawbringer has 150 hp, Conqueror has superior block, ... Characters need to be different for the game to be interesting.

Not that I am of the thought he needs heavy nerfing, but I keep seeing people saying that shinobi isn't viable in 4v4 to the point someone going on about how the shinobi gets one shotted made me feel they must have been going for light-light the whole match. I've made it out of dominion with a 9-0 k/d score in the past just by staying on the edges of fights, swinging out charged heavies and disrupting chains of attacks on my allies. You have to have your head on a swivel and hope they don't get a four man crush steamrollling through the map but he is plenty viable. Like you say, in a pretty good place all in all outside of possibly the kick needing looking at in some way without breaking it.

We.the.North
05-28-2017, 01:54 AM
I've made it out of dominion with a 9-0 k/d score in the past just by staying on the edges of fights, swinging out charged heavies

I was in fact discussing this with a friend this morning while playing some dominions. I was telling him how I was worried if there was a "Matrix" showing the KDA of Shinobis in Dominion and if Ubisoft was basing their buff / nerf on that. Shinobis staying safely on the edge of fight, jumping in with an occasionnal kick when it's safe then staying once again at ranged ... then turning around and fleeing if their teamate dies and they dont want to die outnumbered.

All this staying safe and running when outnumbered is sure to give the Shinobi an artificially boosted KDA. But in terms of real contribution, I'm not sure the KDA is the best way to judge if a Shinobi is a good character to have on your team or not.

If you look at my Heroes Score, my Shinobi has the highest KDA and highest KD out of all the characters I've played. Yet, I still believe my Valkyrie is the best character to bring in Dominion, especially since she's extremly good at winning outnumbered fights with Javelin and her second feat massively boosting her atk/def when she gets a kill. Even tho my KDA is lower, the Valkyrie feels like I can hold points much better and earn way more points for my team.

https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/We.the.North/heroes
Valkyrie : 3.18 KDA ; 2.15 KD
Shinobi : 4.59 KDA ; 2.68 KD



TLDR : Despite having a high KDA, Shinobi is actually weak in Dominion because he doesn't hold points that well and thus, doesn't contribute to the team's total score as much. He gets his high KDA by running from unfair fights, so it's an illusion.

CeIasun
05-28-2017, 01:56 AM
Nice threat read it, I'm bussy butting a video together regarding shinobi with realtime game play against mulltible good or bad players. You actuelly see the difference there in between. Regarding certain new mechanic by adding the video's I actuelly even found a Bug/or one of the mechanics ''not working as intended when you face multiple enemy. At this stage I would stay just wait for a second. Because this is even vs another hero who is also able using it.

Regarding the kick I would say, at the moment leave it as it is. But if you guys considering doiing something, that a stamina cost would be in place. But don't lesses the stamina regen. ( will come to this when the video is finished) While chaninging every thing we also need to consider the impact on other game modes, and I understand why people get frustated. But when I'm anhaust with you guys. The kick is even punishable in a lot of ways, some have figered it out some still dont. I'm not sure if this was intended but basicly you can do damage throw the kick, that's one of the things I often noticed and you can see these things back in my video. The last one I'm gona let it be for know.


One thing that I really like to point out. I faced a lot of type players normal people , but also people who play a lot and are really decent opponents. Olso lame (more often even these days) gankers specially in 4v4 mode. Considering all these fact's together I would say making the horizon of the game bigger is Always better. nerfing thing more is more often not than it is good. While certain thing are Obvious, certain thing you can only put together after a while playing and testing it for your self.

But one thing with the shinobi is clear she's got a good diverse kit. And see really needs it ,one thing that's she is not is OP. She is good and here kit makes her good in the right hand, right time and right place. Her zone attacks can be parryied, and even deflected, besides that also blocked. but will come to that when the video is finished I think.
But let me make one thing clear you will also see this back in the video in text chat. There are 2 of the same heros facing the same opponent each time. The one that i'm fighting actuelly know what he was doining and the other one wasn't as good as him. By the way was a really supprizenly nice match to have. But I think we can she the irony in there. And even I still keep finding things out fighting other people. And I play a lot.

But will go to sleep know....

CeIasun
05-28-2017, 02:07 AM
I was in fact discussing this with a friend this morning while playing some dominions. I was telling him how I was worried if there was a "Matrix" showing the KDA of Shinobis in Dominion and if Ubisoft was basing their buff / nerf on that. Shinobis staying safely on the edge of fight, jumping in with an occasionnal kick when it's safe then staying once again at ranged ... then turning around and fleeing if their teamate dies and they dont want to die outnumbered.

All this staying safe and running when outnumbered is sure to give the Shinobi an artificially boosted KDA. But in terms of real contribution, I'm not sure the KDA is the best way to judge if a Shinobi is a good character to have on your team or not.














The KDA is actuelly giving no good information at all I totally agree with this. basicly you only need to hit an opponent and just run away and everybody who touched that person get the kill?

So for me it doesnt meen anything when people say i got a KDA of so much, basicly I don't even care. That's actully also one of the thing that I wanted to propose to let in changed. Also an Honor system would be really nice and like they mentioned in the stream that you get more point''warassets by doining more combos.

CandleInTheDark
05-28-2017, 02:50 AM
I was in fact discussing this with a friend this morning while playing some dominions. I was telling him how I was worried if there was a "Matrix" showing the KDA of Shinobis in Dominion and if Ubisoft was basing their buff / nerf on that. Shinobis staying safely on the edge of fight, jumping in with an occasionnal kick when it's safe then staying once again at ranged ... then turning around and fleeing if their teamate dies and they dont want to die outnumbered.

All this staying safe and running when outnumbered is sure to give the Shinobi an artificially boosted KDA. But in terms of real contribution, I'm not sure the KDA is the best way to judge if a Shinobi is a good character to have on your team or not.

If you look at my Heroes Score, my Shinobi has the highest KDA and highest KD out of all the characters I've played. Yet, I still believe my Valkyrie is the best character to bring in Dominion, especially since she's extremly good at winning outnumbered fights with Javelin and her second feat massively boosting her atk/def when she gets a kill. Even tho my KDA is lower, the Valkyrie feels like I can hold points much better and earn way more points for my team.

https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/We.the.North/heroes
Valkyrie : 3.18 KDA ; 2.15 KD
Shinobi : 4.59 KDA ; 2.68 KD



TLDR : Despite having a high KDA, Shinobi is actually weak in Dominion because he doesn't hold points that well and thus, doesn't contribute to the team's total score as much. He gets his high KDA by running from unfair fights, so it's an illusion.

Here is the thing though, yes, I stayed at the edge of fights, but my team won and I was top of our score chart without having taken any zones. I certainly agree he is too squishy to hold a zone, but in my mind not everyone is meant to, my job isn't to hold a zone, in fact I get no renown for it (well shinobi does but likely shouldn't),my job is to kill people and if I can stop them killing my team mate, even better because any time the opponent, not my team, had a person looking at the respawn screen, my team was stronger and better able to hold points. For hit and run attacks, changing the course of fights where a charged heavy or a kick determines which of your partner or the person they were fighting died, he has proven quite proficient in that respect, at least by my experience. Your mileage may vary, i tend to play assassin/stealth types in games and playing that role I tend to believe rules are for other people, preferably people with more health/armour than me, so I tend to go for the knife in the dark approach to facing someone head on, I am also of the mind that fair fights are for duel only and even then I will happily kick someone into a fire >.> so I know there will be people who play him differently.

MasterChiefPON
05-28-2017, 03:16 AM
And I disagree because the OP has a tunnel vision into 1v1 and fail to notice how horribly weak the Shinobi is in group fights. All it takes is for one character you are not focused on to flank the Shinobi and that Shinobi will start dodging around unable to kick anything because the person he doesn't kick would punish him harshly, while also getting dangerously close to out of stamina because to escape properly, that Shinobi would have to double dash which cost a lot of stamina. Not to mention in group battle, people pop revenge way more frequently and again, a single "auto parry" from revenge activation will knock the Shinobi on the ground and you can litteraly one shot him easily.

Shinobi is in a good place at the moment. The fast recovery makes sense considering his low hp. If you want him to be as punishable as the other characters in the game while still keeping his 90 hp, then you clearly just want that character gone entirely. remember, the damage output from his kit is quite low actually compared to other characters ... so let him keep his recovery ffs, he's already squishy enough.

Shinobi has fast recovery frames, Lawbringer has 150 hp, Conqueror has superior block, ... Characters need to be different for the game to be interesting.

Well, I think OP's opinion is more focused in 1v1. I personally think that toning down a bit his kick (still good but just nerf it a little bit) and giving him more health would help in both areas.

We.the.North
05-28-2017, 03:29 AM
Well, I think OP's opinion is more focused in 1v1. I personally think that toning down a bit his kick (still good but just nerf it a little bit) and giving him more health would help in both areas.

I'm 100% in favor of this.

Knight_Raime
05-28-2017, 04:19 AM
I've been playing Shinobi quite a bit since the public release, and I've found that I have more fun if I just ignore all of the stupid things like ranged attacks and kicks (pretty much play like a PK I guess). It makes him feel more like he actually fits into the game properly, instead of a silly turtle monster. The only problem is his heavy is slow as sin, and getting 2 heavies in a row for the combo attack is damn near impossible. I think what he needed was more love for the deflect, and less love for the ranged attacks.

These new characters with their devastating chain attacks just feel like they don't really fit the design philosophy that most of the other characters fit into imo.

yeah they are really the only 2 people that have actual combos.

Knight_Raime
05-28-2017, 04:22 AM
Thanks for this great post! It's always great to get all-encompassing feedback on the good and bad of a hero in the game. Part of the hesitance to nerf Shinobi's kick right off the bat was because the calls for nerfs were coming before the entire community had the opportunity to try and understand the in's and out's of the Shinobi. Now that he's available to everyone, our team will start getting a more complete picture based on the increased feedback and data that has become available.

(Also nice DS2 reference in your name. Great boss, but I try to forget DS2 exists :p )

Yeah I get that. I'm hesitant myself. I don't think he's overpowered. I just find fighting one to be incredibly frustrating. And I think it's entirely because of how his kit is versus how the game currently is.
and thanks. I try to forget DS2 as well. but raime and alonne were my all time favorite fights.

Knight_Raime
05-28-2017, 04:25 AM
And I disagree because the OP has a tunnel vision into 1v1 and fail to notice how horribly weak the Shinobi is in group fights. All it takes is for one character you are not focused on to flank the Shinobi and that Shinobi will start dodging around unable to kick anything because the person he doesn't kick would punish him harshly, while also getting dangerously close to out of stamina because to escape properly, that Shinobi would have to double dash which cost a lot of stamina. Not to mention in group battle, people pop revenge way more frequently and again, a single "auto parry" from revenge activation will knock the Shinobi on the ground and you can litteraly one shot him easily.

Shinobi is in a good place at the moment. The fast recovery makes sense considering his low hp. If you want him to be as punishable as the other characters in the game while still keeping his 90 hp, then you clearly just want that character gone entirely. remember, the damage output from his kit is quite low actually compared to other characters ... so let him keep his recovery ffs, he's already squishy enough.

Shinobi has fast recovery frames, Lawbringer has 150 hp, Conqueror has superior block, ... Characters need to be different for the game to be interesting.

You're not wrong. My perspective is from the view point of 1v1/brawls only. I haven't touched 4v4 against other humans since before the revenge nerf. IMO it's got way too many issues right now to be considered playable. ( I can tell you those if you're interested.) I certainly don't want any nerf to him to ruin his performance in any game mode mine or not. I'm not even sure if he needs one. i'm just saying if pressed to be on one side of the fence or the other I sypathize with the nerfers. (though I probably don't agree with their logic or their suggestions.) Only because I don't see any simple solution to make the rest of the game better so he's by comparison not such a pain.

Knight_Raime
05-28-2017, 04:31 AM
Nice threat read it, I'm bussy butting a video together regarding shinobi with realtime game play against mulltible good or bad players. You actuelly see the difference there in between. Regarding certain new mechanic by adding the video's I actuelly even found a Bug/or one of the mechanics ''not working as intended when you face multiple enemy. At this stage I would stay just wait for a second. Because this is even vs another hero who is also able using it.

Regarding the kick I would say, at the moment leave it as it is. But if you guys considering doiing something, that a stamina cost would be in place. But don't lesses the stamina regen. ( will come to this when the video is finished) While chaninging every thing we also need to consider the impact on other game modes, and I understand why people get frustated. But when I'm anhaust with you guys. The kick is even punishable in a lot of ways, some have figered it out some still dont. I'm not sure if this was intended but basicly you can do damage throw the kick, that's one of the things I often noticed and you can see these things back in my video. The last one I'm gona let it be for know.


One thing that I really like to point out. I faced a lot of type players normal people , but also people who play a lot and are really decent opponents. Olso lame (more often even these days) gankers specially in 4v4 mode. Considering all these fact's together I would say making the horizon of the game bigger is Always better. nerfing thing more is more often not than it is good. While certain thing are Obvious, certain thing you can only put together after a while playing and testing it for your self.

But one thing with the shinobi is clear she's got a good diverse kit. And see really needs it ,one thing that's she is not is OP. She is good and here kit makes her good in the right hand, right time and right place. Her zone attacks can be parryied, and even deflected, besides that also blocked. but will come to that when the video is finished I think.
But let me make one thing clear you will also see this back in the video in text chat. There are 2 of the same heros facing the same opponent each time. The one that i'm fighting actuelly know what he was doining and the other one wasn't as good as him. By the way was a really supprizenly nice match to have. But I think we can she the irony in there. And even I still keep finding things out fighting other people. And I play a lot.

But will go to sleep know....

Just as a food for thought I don't typically find stam consumption nerfs/damage nerfs to ever really address the problem. More so just side stepping it. If we made the kick cost more stamn it would be used less. But it wouldn't be any less powerful. if that makes sense.

I'm aware of every single way you can punish the shinobi. As I mentioned in the OP the problem is not everyone has some kind of a punish. and of the ones that do they can't rely on it because of the stuff coming from neutral. There are only a few heros that have a good match up against him. the rest are slightly below neutral or a bad match against him. Versus the centurion where a majority of the match ups can go either way. and only 1-2 extreme cases.

I agree that making other people better would be be the right approach. along with ditching the defensive meta. I'm just saying that I don't particularly see one or even a few ways we could do that to make shin not seem well..like the god of the game. I mean I dislike warlord probably as much as the next person. But even I can see he's only really S tier because the game currently plays to his strengths. where as defensive meta or not shin's kit will remain just as strong as it started out as.

UrWaifuAintReal
05-28-2017, 05:40 AM
Both Shinobi and Centurion were supposed to break the turtle meta yet ended up reinforcing the turtle meta further because the best way to play against them is to turtle since they punish you so hardly for making one mistake while trying to aggress them, and the best way to play Shinobi and Centurion themselves is to turtle since everything offensive option aside from the kick is unsafe for Shinobi, and centurion has practically zero offensive option.

kweassa1917
05-28-2017, 05:43 AM
Here is the thing though, yes, I stayed at the edge of fights, but my team won and I was top of our score chart without having taken any zones. I certainly agree he is too squishy to hold a zone, but in my mind not everyone is meant to, my job isn't to hold a zone, in fact I get no renown for it (well shinobi does but likely shouldn't),my job is to kill people and if I can stop them killing my team mate, even better because any time the opponent, not my team, had a person looking at the respawn screen, my team was stronger and better able to hold points. For hit and run attacks, changing the course of fights where a charged heavy or a kick determines which of your partner or the person they were fighting died, he has proven quite proficient in that respect, at least by my experience. Your mileage may vary, i tend to play assassin/stealth types in games and playing that role I tend to believe rules are for other people, preferably people with more health/armour than me, so I tend to go for the knife in the dark approach to facing someone head on, I am also of the mind that fair fights are for duel only and even then I will happily kick someone into a fire >.> so I know there will be people who play him differently.

Remember the discussion we've had a few weeks back about the "role of the assassin/PK"? ...and how my basic assessment into assassin classes is that for the class to be of considerable contributor to team, it absolutely needs to kill, and kill fast?

Well, the Shib is it. ;) It's the epitome of "no honor", and without any remorse or shame. It can run disruption roles but it's too squishy for that -- a role like that would be best served by the PK, but not the Shib. Instead, the Shib is the very live example of the "every time your teammates fight, the Shib's always there for a +1 man advantage to your team" I've mentioned a while back. It's even faster than the PK.

So IMO looking for a 1v1 mentality with the Shib is just stupid. There's no reason to. The Shibs the ultimate "ganker" and it shines in that role, so making every fight on the map a "gank" in favor of your team is probably the best way to play a Shib.

Therefore, IMO a Shib that gets the highest takedown scores, is actually a Shib playing it well.



(ps) it's kind of interesting how the 4 assassin classes are now all a bit different in their roles. IMO it's like this...

● Shib: glass-cannon killer, direct kill support, specializes in 'ganks' , avoid 1v1s, relish in "ganks"
● PK: zone-disruptor, luring and baiting multiple enemies and disrupting rear zones, partial kill support
● Orochi: more of a hybrid between vanguard-assassin role, that's actually closer to the former than the latter, geared more towards direct confrontation fights, less capable of assassin roles
● Berserker: ....honestly I don't know what a Berserker is supposed to do. This class is forever a mystery to me... a glass cannon? Tankbuster? I'll leave this to Berserker experts.