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View Full Version : Defensive META - This could be a very good solution!



S0Mi_xD
05-27-2017, 01:00 AM
Hello Community,
i had this ideas some time ago and i wanted to bring them up agian

Let me Quote some material from me, i posted a while ago...



But currently, if i fight a good player who is capable of blocking every move and parry almost every attack (light or heavy - doesn't play a roll).
The moment this person starts to dispare because i crush him, he starts to "turtle".
And by turleing it isn't meant to play defensive, it mean to really, never attack again until it is safe, like you say on a whiff while someone is constantly dodging.
The problem is, defense is VERY MUCH better than offensive, because there are more tools with nearly no drawback in defense then in offense.

Ok, i will make it easy for you:

Defese options/tool:
1. Block on light:
+ no drawback for the Blocking hero
+ drawbacks for the attacker:
~ Superior block(means attack will be interrupted and chains aswell)
~ while interrupted some chars can be punished
~ attacker takes stamina dmg (don't know how high but looks like same stamina cost of a heavy attack)

2. Block on heavy:
- Blocking hero gets chip dmg (1-6 dmg) for the exact numbers look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/htmlview?sle=true#
- attacker takes stamina dmg (don't know if it is the same as on light block or more)

3. Parry:
+ Parry doesn't cost stamina
+ Parry on light gives most chars their strongest heavy for free
+ Parry in general gives a free heavy and a free GB(except on long range chars)
+ Parry drains 1/3 of the attackers stamina
Drawback for the Defensive:
-/+ IF he miss the parry he gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough. (this drawback is very unlikly)

4. Dash and roll
+ You can evade evey attack in this game by dashing or rolling, rolling out of the wardens shoulderbash or LB shovel is a good way.
- if you miss the timeing you get hit (but this does not happen much, because most of the time only assassins use dash/dodge)

5. Now about character specific def
Superior Block:
+ Conque gets free GB after heavy block
+ no chip dmg
here: speacial speacial: Valks, conqus, kenseis dodge do have a sup block
+ Valks reward a bleed heavy
+ conque gets a shildbash
+ kensei gets a light or a GB

Deflect:
- Very risky because of the timing, if you fail you get hit or dodge it (50/50)
- parry is much safer and rewards around the same output
+ looks cool and gives kind of sadisfaction

Full stance guard:
Conqu - i don't see any use except as a his feint
Warlord free light after heavy block.

(maby i forgot something)

Offensive tools etc
1. Light (downsides are the the advantages of defese)
+ fast attack
- cost stamina
- easy interrupted

2. heavy (downsides are the the advantages of defese)
- cost more stamina
- easy parried

3. Unblockables are specific, not every char has some offensive unblockable and

4. specific unblockables like sholderbash shovel (also limited)

5. Feint (except conqu)
+ good bait
+ mindgames

6. Combos/ chains
- most of the time useless if interrupted
-/+ whiffing



I don't want parries to go, but they could atlest be limited abit (maybe cost stamina, and while exhausted a shorter window to parry same like deflect - same princip like attacks while no stamina)
And if Light superior block is gone it wouldn't be that bad, because there are enough other defesive options/tools.

So what can we see here?
The Basic tools which can everybody use:
- Block (light/heavy)
- Parry
- dodge and roll (what i forgot here: roll does cost stamina and can't be attemped when OOS)

- Attack (light/heavy)
- Feint
- Combos/Chains

So let us compare those:
Blocking
- has a good amount of advantages, but not nearly as much disadvantages
- it currently is Superior to 2 main tools from the ffensive tools -> Light attacks and because of this also to Chains

Parry
-This tool is in first line a defensive tool but in second line an offensive tool, because it gives you a counterattack.
- Parries do not have any real disadvantage only advantages
- the only disadvantages can be negated thanks to the second Offensive tool: Feint

Dodging
-this one is balanced, it does not have that much of a advantages or disadvantage

Rolls
- They have a BIG advantages, rolling can safe you from anything BUT it cost much stamina and isn't useable OOS

Attacks and Chains will be easy counter with nearly all defensive tools
also i forgot one tool here: The GB

GB
+ it can open up an enemy and give you good options to dmg your enemy
- it can be countered

so GBs are quite fair as they are.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Currently the best offensive tools are GB and Feint and both are working, so i wouldn't touch both of them.
Rolling and Dodging are working as intendet. As well we don't need to touch them.
So Block, Parry, Attacks and Chains are need a look.

Block, Attacks and Chains are bound to each other:

1. Superior Light block.
Interrupts Light attacks -> that means there are no Chains possible if a Light is interrupted

So do we need to remove Sup light block?
It would be a way, but it would let some player open to Lightspam.
So we need something different. The Answer i also wrote in another thread a month ago (can't find it, so i will rewrite it)
Uninterruptable for Light and Heavies (only uninterruptable through blocks - still interruptable through attacks) ! Not the same Hyperarmor we know from Berserker or Warlord.

We already have a Hero who is using this. Light attacks from the Shugoki can't be interrupted by Blocks! (as far as i know this has nothing to do with his special Armor, it is a passive trait of his attacks in general).
So why not giving Attacks in Chains this passive trait? Not for all of them, But for some of them.
Let's say: (those are only examples)
Orochi: Light > Light > Light
Light (interruptable) > Light (uninterruptable) > Light (interruptable)
Light (uninterruptable) > Light (interruptable) > Light (uninterruptable)

Also some Heavies SHOULD be uninterruptaple in chains aswell. Why? because of classes like Conqueror - to be able to attack heroes with superior blocks with heavies as well.

This would solve the problems using chains, shrink the amounts of lights that are punishable for some heroes (valk, kensei) just due to block, giving a reason to use chains abit more safe.

2. Chip DMG
It is already in the game, and due to point 1. and the following point about parry, you will have more reasons to use chains with heavies in it.
Also something that nearly nobody knows, the devs said, that attacks in chains are doing MORE chip dmg.
So then what we need to do here ?
It is simple just raise the Chip dmg in general. How much can we handle without overpower chip dmg?
Currently it is 1-6 chip dmg,
- 1-3 are all classes
- 4-5 Raider and shugoki
- 6 Berserker top Heavy chain finisher

So 3-8 would be a good good amount, raising every chip dmg by 2 points.
- 3-5 for every class
- 6-7 raider shugoki
- 8 Top heavy finisher Berserker.

( 2-7 would be ok as well)


3. Stamina drain on block
So i am not a fan of stamina drain on block because stamina management is already hard.
But there is a way to manage something similar.
IF you are blocking, your stamina stops to regenerate for the time of the blocking frames.
This is a legit way to balance the stamina of persons without breaking it. It is used in other games as well and it works fine.
Its the same principe with attack, if you are attacking, your stamina does not regenerate.

And now about Parry:

1. Parry
The hardest to handle of all tools, because it is offensive and defensive.
Let's take a look again whats the advantages and disadvantages.
3. Parry:
+ Parry doesn't cost stamina
+ Parry on light gives most chars their strongest heavy for free
+ Parry in general gives a free heavy and a free GB(except on long range chars)
+ Parry drains 1/3 of the attackers stamina
Drawback for the Defensive:
-/+ IF he miss the parry he gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough. (this drawback is very unlikly)

So what i see the biggest problem is, it does not cost any stamina for the use -> that means there is no limit in using it. You can parry every attack, any time.
- setting a time limit ? no it would be do squishy
- giving it stamian cost? Yes, it would impact this overbalanced mechanic very much.
If it would cost abit less stamina than it drains from the enemy, around 1/4 stamina, it would be already limited extremly. But maybe you think now, this is useless why this should work?
Because with a full bar of stamina you could only parry 4 times in a row, you also need stamina for a GB, for an attack, for a throw.
Also you couldn't parry when you are out of stamina!!! Now you ask, how should i defend myself?
There are still Blocking and Dodging.

If you are exhausted to you think you could parry an attack?

1. Edit:
You should be still able to parry while exhausted.
Maybe:
What if parry cost exhaustion regeneration?
It would be similar to GBs while exhausted. If you use a GB while you have no stamina, you will lose some exhaustion regen?

2. Edit:
Also, we could need a change to the Parry rewards.
One way i think that isn't that bad.
- the GB after a Heavy parry shouldn't be safe, only after a LIGHT parry.
This would make Heavies abit safer (people are much to scared to use heavies because the can be easy punished with a GB - and a GB is a high rewarding punish. This is too much of a punish/reward for a heavy parry)

- No free heavy after a Heavy parry, only lights
- And Heavies are free after a light parry

Also i thought about unparrieable attacks, but this would be to much.

The rest is fine as it is.

So lets summerize how to fix those issues:
1. Adding an uninterruptable passive trait to some attacks in chains.
2. Raising the Chip dmg abit
3. Stop regen stamian for the short time of the blocking frames (currently not sure if this would be a bit to strong in 4v4)
4. Limit parries - in my opinion by giving parries a high stamina cost. (Similar to rolling)

Mythic MK II
05-27-2017, 02:07 AM
I like the ideas but I think there needs to be a better solution to the parry.
My main problem with the stamina cost on parry and being unable to parry when you are exhausted is that... well, unblockable attacks.

For example, I am out of stamina, Raider throws in a side unblockable. Playing a slow class myself, it will be finiky to dodge that... I have barely ever successfully dodged a Unblockable side heavy while out of stamina. So, there is no way to deffend myself with that.
I am all in for mistakes to be punished, but dayum, Unblockable heavies hit REALLY hard.

Now, if I can still parry while exhausted yet it costs stamina when you have stamina, that would be fine. Trying to parry while exhausted is VERY risky due to being baited to get parried youself.
Another example, again raider because he can bait INCREDIBLY well since season 2, Out of stam, he throws in a zone, I try to parry, and he has 2 options, fullfill the bait and easily parry me or throw in a top light which stuns me.

Ya see, some character would be incredibly powerfull without the ability to parry when out of stam.

S0Mi_xD
05-27-2017, 02:17 AM
I like the ideas but I think there needs to be a better solution to the parry.
My main problem with the stamina cost on parry and being unable to parry when you are exhausted is that... well, unblockable attacks.

For example, I am out of stamina, Raider throws in a side unblockable. Playing a slow class myself, it will be finiky to dodge that... I have barely ever successfully dodged a Unblockable side heavy while out of stamina. So, there is no way to deffend myself with that.
I am all in for mistakes to be punished, but dayum, Unblockable heavies hit REALLY hard.

Now, if I can still parry while exhausted yet it costs stamina when you have stamina, that would be fine. Trying to parry while exhausted is VERY risky due to being baited to get parried youself.
Another example, again raider because he can bait INCREDIBLY well since season 2, Out of stam, he throws in a zone, I try to parry, and he has 2 options, fullfill the bait and easily parry me or throw in a top light which stuns me.

Ya see, some character would be incredibly powerfull without the ability to parry when out of stam.

Thank you for your answer :)

take a look into the Quotation i did on a old post from me.

"I don't want parries to go, but they could atlest be limited abit (maybe cost stamina, and while exhausted a shorter window to parry same like deflect - same princip like attacks while no stamina)"

The idea was to shorten the parry window only while exhausted. But that was a month ago and i am not sure about this.

But you are right, i forgot about the danger, of parry bait while OOS.

I had an idea just now, thanks to you.

What would you say if parry while out of stamina will cost abit Exhaustion regenration?
It would be similar to GBs while exhausted. If you use a GB while you have no stamina, you will lose some exhaustion regen?

S0Mi_xD
05-27-2017, 11:44 PM
I did add a change to Rewards for Parries.

Titoxin
05-28-2017, 06:14 PM
Hello Community,
i had this ideas some time ago and i wanted to bring them up agian

Let me Quote some material from me, i posted a while ago...


So what can we see here?
The Basic tools which can everybody use:
- Block (light/heavy)
- Parry
- dodge and roll (what i forgot here: roll does cost stamina and can't be attemped when OOS)

- Attack (light/heavy)
- Feint
- Combos/Chains

So let us compare those:
Blocking
- has a good amount of advantages, but not nearly as much disadvantages
- it currently is Superior to 2 main tools from the ffensive tools -> Light attacks and because of this also to Chains

Parry
-This tool is in first line a defensive tool but in second line an offensive tool, because it gives you a counterattack.
- Parries do not have any real disadvantage only advantages
- the only disadvantages can be negated thanks to the second Offensive tool: Feint

Dodging
-this one is balanced, it does not have that much of a advantages or disadvantage

Rolls
- They have a BIG advantages, rolling can safe you from anything BUT it cost much stamina and isn't useable OOS

Attacks and Chains will be easy counter with nearly all defensive tools
also i forgot one tool here: The GB

GB
+ it can open up an enemy and give you good options to dmg your enemy
- it can be countered

so GBs are quite fair as they are.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Currently the best offensive tools are GB and Feint and both are working, so i wouldn't touch both of them.
Rolling and Dodging are working as intendet. As well we don't need to touch them.
So Block, Parry, Attacks and Chains are need a look.

Block, Attacks and Chains are bound to each other:

1. Superior Light block.
Interrupts Light attacks -> that means there are no Chains possible if a Light is interrupted

So do we need to remove Sup light block?
It would be a way, but it would let some player open to Lightspam.
So we need something different. The Answer i also wrote in another thread a month ago (can't find it, so i will rewrite it)
Uninterruptable for Light and Heavies (only uninterruptable through blocks - still interruptable through attacks) ! Not the same Hyperarmor we know from Berserker or Warlord.

We already have a Hero who is using this. Light attacks from the Shugoki can't be interrupted by Blocks! (as far as i know this has nothing to do with his special Armor, it is a passive trait of his attacks in general).
So why not giving Attacks in Chains this passive trait? Not for all of them, But for some of them.
Let's say: (those are only examples)
Orochi: Light > Light > Light
Light (interruptable) > Light (uninterruptable) > Light (interruptable)
Light (uninterruptable) > Light (interruptable) > Light (uninterruptable)

Also some Heavies SHOULD be uninterruptaple in chains aswell. Why? because of classes like Conqueror - to be able to attack heroes with superior blocks with heavies as well.

This would solve the problems using chains, shrink the amounts of lights that are punishable for some heroes (valk, kensei) just due to block, giving a reason to use chains abit more safe.

2. Chip DMG
It is already in the game, and due to point 1. and the following point about parry, you will have more reasons to use chains with heavies in it.
Also something that nearly nobody knows, the devs said, that attacks in chains are doing MORE chip dmg.
So then what we need to do here ?
It is simple just raise the Chip dmg in general. How much can we handle without overpower chip dmg?
Currently it is 1-6 chip dmg,
- 1-3 are all classes
- 4-5 Raider and shugoki
- 6 Berserker top Heavy chain finisher

So 3-8 would be a good good amount, raising every chip dmg by 2 points.
- 3-5 for every class
- 6-7 raider shugoki
- 8 Top heavy finisher Berserker.

( 2-7 would be ok as well)


3. Stamina drain on block
So i am not a fan of stamina drain on block because stamina management is already hard.
But there is a way to manage something similar.
IF you are blocking, your stamina stops to regenerate for the time of the blocking frames.
This is a legit way to balance the stamina of persons without breaking it. It is used in other games as well and it works fine.
Its the same principe with attack, if you are attacking, your stamina does not regenerate.

And now about Parry:

1. Parry
The hardest to handle of all tools, because it is offensive and defensive.
Let's take a look again whats the advantages and disadvantages.
3. Parry:
+ Parry doesn't cost stamina
+ Parry on light gives most chars their strongest heavy for free
+ Parry in general gives a free heavy and a free GB(except on long range chars)
+ Parry drains 1/3 of the attackers stamina
Drawback for the Defensive:
-/+ IF he miss the parry he gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough. (this drawback is very unlikly)

So what i see the biggest problem is, it does not cost any stamina for the use -> that means there is no limit in using it. You can parry every attack, any time.
- setting a time limit ? no it would be do squishy
- giving it stamian cost? Yes, it would impact this overbalanced mechanic very much.
If it would cost abit less stamina than it drains from the enemy, around 1/4 stamina, it would be already limited extremly. But maybe you think now, this is useless why this should work?
Because with a full bar of stamina you could only parry 4 times in a row, you also need stamina for a GB, for an attack, for a throw.
Also you couldn't parry when you are out of stamina!!! Now you ask, how should i defend myself?
There are still Blocking and Dodging.

If you are exhausted to you think you could parry an attack?

1. Edit:
You should be still able to parry while exhausted.
Maybe:
What if parry cost exhaustion regeneration?
It would be similar to GBs while exhausted. If you use a GB while you have no stamina, you will lose some exhaustion regen?

2. Edit:
Also, we could need a change to the Parry rewards.
One way i think that isn't that bad.
All rewards for a parry can stay as they are, the only exception is the GB after a Heavy parry shouldn't be safe, only after a LIGHT parry.
This would make Heavies abit safer (people are much to scared to use heavies because the can be easy punished with a GB - and a GB is a high rewarding punish. This is too much of a punish/reward for a heavy parry)
-

Also i thought about unparrieable attacks, but this would be to much.

The rest is fine as it is.

So lets summerize how to fix those issues:
1. Adding an uninterruptable passive traite to some attacks in chains.
2. Raising the Chip dmg abit
3. Stop regen stamian for the short time of the blocking frames
4. Limit parries - in my opinion by giving parries a high stamina cost. (Similar to rolling)

first of all, parrying is much too easy so thats one of the biggest reasons why this game is just a parry fest. second the punish for a parry is already mostly a heavy for free. sucks ***. that would still result in one thing: you as attacker get ****ing pounished for doing anything but waiting. stupid piece of **** of a game. i posted something totally different but better on reddit. you cant give a fighting game the possibility to react on everything and punish every ****ing attack that comes along in almost every situation. and also cant punish people for activly playing while let everyone win that just refuses to and punishes the opponent for playing. its the same on very ****ing hero in this game. turtle, parry, punish.

the game plan on every hero is the same. i whish no more than refunding or selling the game altogether. not even talking about disconnects all the time and ****ing bugs everywhere.


ubisoft should get their **** together and find solutions themselves. they ****ing sold us a beta, now they let the customers do their work and suggest solutions to the many problems the game has and then they will release for honor 2. done.

S0Mi_xD
05-29-2017, 06:46 PM
first of all, parrying is much too easy so thats one of the biggest reasons why this game is just a parry fest. second the punish for a parry is already mostly a heavy for free. sucks ***. that would still result in one thing: you as attacker get ****ing pounished for doing anything but waiting. stupid piece of **** of a game. i posted something totally different but better on reddit. you cant give a fighting game the possibility to react on everything and punish every ****ing attack that comes along in almost every situation. and also cant punish people for activly playing while let everyone win that just refuses to and punishes the opponent for playing. its the same on very ****ing hero in this game. turtle, parry, punish.

the game plan on every hero is the same. i whish no more than refunding or selling the game altogether. not even talking about disconnects all the time and ****ing bugs everywhere.


ubisoft should get their **** together and find solutions themselves. they ****ing sold us a beta, now they let the customers do their work and suggest solutions to the many problems the game has and then they will release for honor 2. done.

Mh, ok.

I do not think, that parry should be limited by making it harder to use.

Also i don't think it is wrong to take suggestions from the community.

But we will see ^^