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View Full Version : Some serious facts about the LaGG-3 in game



Valathar
05-24-2004, 11:14 AM
Here is a list of the most important LaGG-3 versions, some missing in game

LaGG-3 1st Series: 3x USB (one firing in the spinner) and 2 ShKAS, PBP-1 gunsight (later versions replaced by PBP-1A), oval wing intakes, different exaust shield (compared with 4th series), additional balance weight at bottom of the rudder. There was a field conversion of it that had the canopy door removed, this to improve visibility because the earlier plexiglass used was very dark.

LaGG-3 4th Series: IN GAME. WRONG, the right UBS should be deleted since this version removed them to reduced wight, due of this default texture should be corrected. Also it don't had equipment to carry bombs, rockets or fuel tanks.

LaGG-3 8th Series: ShKAS removed, oil cooler intake modificied, could be equiped with 20mm or 23mm cannons.

LaGG-3 11th Series: Same as previous version but with equipment for bomb racks and rocket rails, redesigned back fuselage around radiator. It could perform close support missions carring FAB-50, AO-25M, FAB-50M, RS-82 or RS-132 rockets.

LaGG-3 23th Series: Same as previous version, different rudder with balance weight deleted.

LaGG-3 29th Series: IN GAME, same as above but exaust shield deleted

LaGG-3 33th Series: From this version and on, the VISh-105SV propeler was used, this lead to a large spinner.

LaGG-3 34th Series: IN GAME as IT. WRONG, it hasn't revised canopy and retractable tail wheel. Also firing the gun may damaged the plane structure due of heavy recoil.

LaGG-3 35th Series: IN GAME. Due of high stall caracteristics, from this version and on leading edge flaps was added (*), redesignated nose air intake, from this version and on retractable tail wheel.

LaGG-3 66th Series: IN GAME. The most light in weight of all the series. WRONG, it don't had landing light, so should be deleted and default texture updated.

(*)
Now the flight caracteristic problems. I was testing all the available versions and all have the same flight caracteristics, the most remarkable is that all versions stalls at 300 Kph more less. As pilots reported, the LaGG-3 had a tendence to get into a vicious stall in normal maneuvers, so on 35th Series and on leading edge flaps where added. Since stall at 300 Kph is in some way "normal" for a leading edge flaps equiped aircraft, same aircraft without them should stall more, specially if they are heavy like the early versions.
Acording to records, the BF-109F was very superior to the LaGG-3 4th Series in combat, however in game you have very high chances to keep on turning against a BF-109F using the LaGG-3.
Or the early LaGG-3 are to much boosted on maneuvers, or the LaGG-3 66th Series is a great maneuver, and for sure it wans't since it was replaced by the better Yaks, and the new radial powered La fighters.

Valathar
05-24-2004, 11:14 AM
Here is a list of the most important LaGG-3 versions, some missing in game

LaGG-3 1st Series: 3x USB (one firing in the spinner) and 2 ShKAS, PBP-1 gunsight (later versions replaced by PBP-1A), oval wing intakes, different exaust shield (compared with 4th series), additional balance weight at bottom of the rudder. There was a field conversion of it that had the canopy door removed, this to improve visibility because the earlier plexiglass used was very dark.

LaGG-3 4th Series: IN GAME. WRONG, the right UBS should be deleted since this version removed them to reduced wight, due of this default texture should be corrected. Also it don't had equipment to carry bombs, rockets or fuel tanks.

LaGG-3 8th Series: ShKAS removed, oil cooler intake modificied, could be equiped with 20mm or 23mm cannons.

LaGG-3 11th Series: Same as previous version but with equipment for bomb racks and rocket rails, redesigned back fuselage around radiator. It could perform close support missions carring FAB-50, AO-25M, FAB-50M, RS-82 or RS-132 rockets.

LaGG-3 23th Series: Same as previous version, different rudder with balance weight deleted.

LaGG-3 29th Series: IN GAME, same as above but exaust shield deleted

LaGG-3 33th Series: From this version and on, the VISh-105SV propeler was used, this lead to a large spinner.

LaGG-3 34th Series: IN GAME as IT. WRONG, it hasn't revised canopy and retractable tail wheel. Also firing the gun may damaged the plane structure due of heavy recoil.

LaGG-3 35th Series: IN GAME. Due of high stall caracteristics, from this version and on leading edge flaps was added (*), redesignated nose air intake, from this version and on retractable tail wheel.

LaGG-3 66th Series: IN GAME. The most light in weight of all the series. WRONG, it don't had landing light, so should be deleted and default texture updated.

(*)
Now the flight caracteristic problems. I was testing all the available versions and all have the same flight caracteristics, the most remarkable is that all versions stalls at 300 Kph more less. As pilots reported, the LaGG-3 had a tendence to get into a vicious stall in normal maneuvers, so on 35th Series and on leading edge flaps where added. Since stall at 300 Kph is in some way "normal" for a leading edge flaps equiped aircraft, same aircraft without them should stall more, specially if they are heavy like the early versions.
Acording to records, the BF-109F was very superior to the LaGG-3 4th Series in combat, however in game you have very high chances to keep on turning against a BF-109F using the LaGG-3.
Or the early LaGG-3 are to much boosted on maneuvers, or the LaGG-3 66th Series is a great maneuver, and for sure it wans't since it was replaced by the better Yaks, and the new radial powered La fighters.

dadada1
05-24-2004, 11:46 AM
Have to agree with you about the early laggs being too manouverable in game. Everything I've read about them seems to say they were sluggish an cumbersome aircraft. I know Oleg uses best test data for Russian AC but this seems generous. I have a book on Lavochkin fighters (cant remember the author, though he is Russian) and it always seem to conclude that aicraft from the production line were between 20-30 MPH slower(sometimes more)than those coming used for tests. It seems that most soviet fighter production suffered from poor quality manufacture as a result of using semi and unskilled labour. The consequence of this being poor finish and a performance considerably lower than those used to impress the top brass (I know this is no just limited to the Soviets). Dont get me wrong I love these Russian AC, but the performance of early laggs in game seem to totally contradict written evidence. Just an observation.

Fillmore
05-24-2004, 11:53 AM
"I know Oleg uses best test data for Russian AC "

no, he doesn't. He uses best factory data for non VVS planes, for VVS he uses weighted average of tested serial planes w/o defects. He has said this himself more that once, do a search of his posts and you should find one that says just that.

Valathar
05-24-2004, 11:53 AM
I like this plane, it had firepower, the airframe was strong, it was somewhat fast, but meneuvrability of the first series wasn´t their strong point, at least wehen leading edge flaps was added.

Luftcaca
05-24-2004, 11:53 AM
I think that with the patch now the LAGG are less likely to take enormous amount of damage like they used to do, it was almost as resitant as the 190 was

but still, yeah I think the Lagg is overmodelled in the game

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Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

dadada1
05-24-2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"I know Oleg uses best test data for Russian AC "

no, he doesn't. He uses best factory data for non VVS planes, for VVS he uses weighted average of tested serial planes w/o defects. He has said this himself more that once, do a search of his posts and you should find one that says just that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apologies, did'nt mean to misquote or mislead. What do you think of their performance in game, just interested in what people think really.

robban75
05-24-2004, 01:11 PM
The La-7 has been modelled by best factory data and then some!
The Yak-3 also performs better than it should, especially in terms of topspeed. The other Yak's I'm not sure about. The Yak-9U's performance seems to reflect production performance and not prototype performance. It's the only VVS fighter that I know that is modelled this way. If I'm wrong on this, please let me know.
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When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Harh
05-24-2004, 01:15 PM
Bump for this. If someone from devteam checking the forum they'll notice it and might correct it in future patch (wonder, will it be or not). As I know it is allways so about new crafts. They are either overmodelled or undermodelled.

[Edit] I mean about LaGG AC, robban's message has just appeared. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards

Bogun
05-24-2004, 02:04 PM
Valathar,

Before posting here you should try to fly those early LaGG's, don't repeat someone else's noncence.
Everyone can open 'Lavochkin's Piston-Engined Fighters' book and start posting from there it does not make you right.

They are so porked they are not capable to stay in sustained turn with any of the F and G series Bf.109 already... (just the way they should be). They also snap into spin so easily - again just the way they should. Partially agree with the armament criticism type 4 is messed up.

Next time try before posting.

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
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"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

VW-IceFire
05-24-2004, 02:24 PM
LaGG is a very sluggish fighter in the game. I have red that in some cases it was considered fairly tough but that it was known more as a coffin because of slow acceleration and poor manuverability. Compaired to the Yak or the Bf 109's of contemporary age...this seems about true.

Ironically, in 1.0, it was my first campaign fighter till we switched to Yak's.

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p1ngu666
05-24-2004, 03:47 PM
the early 5gun one is like the p47 for me, but low speed :\
and lagg was in a constant state of flux i thought

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Aaron_GT
05-25-2004, 01:12 AM
"right UBS should be deleted since this version removed them to reduced wight, due of this default texture should be corrected. Also it don't had equipment to carry bombs, rockets or fuel tanks."

Apparently it wasn't always removed.

The Lagg-3 alway used to be a bit of a pig - not maneouverable to TnB, not fast enough to BnZ, but I haven't flown it since AEP came out. The big advantage is that with the nose-concentrated armament it packs quite a punch for an early war plane, if you can actually get a firing solution.

LEXX_Luthor
05-25-2004, 02:36 AM
It is fast, very fast down low, but it may or may not have the acceleration to keep going fast during combat. robban? It feels sluggish to me, but perhaps not enough???

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Tipo_Man
05-25-2004, 02:50 AM
Well Lagg-3 judgement was very contradictory amoung soviet pilots. Some considered it Varnished Guaranteed Coffin (another meaning in russian of abbreviation LaGG) some simply shoot down enemy planes like Alelukhin (27 kills if I remember correctly). So here are some more data on serial planes performance...

http://tipoman.maddsites.com/files/Soviet_Planes_with_serial_numbers.htm


And here is interesting info about LaGG-3...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Well intended to write the original text but....Lost half an hour trying to write in russian but the stupid forum does not allow ? !

Gudkov (One of the creators of LaGG-3) wrote to Stalin that in his plant he's able to produce LaGG-3 with M-82 engine. He stated that the serial LaGG-3 fighter produced by his plant at that time has a max speed of 554km/h and climb time to 5000m was 8,5-9 min ! He stated that mounting the new engine would significantly improve this performance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tests says LaGG-3 climbs to 5000 meters for 6,8min its designer (Gurevitch) stated 8,5-9 min ! :-)

[This message was edited by Tipo_Man on Tue May 25 2004 at 01:58 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tipo_Man on Tue May 25 2004 at 02:02 AM.]

Kwiatos
05-25-2004, 04:46 AM
What i found:

Lagg 3 4th series :
Weight(take off) - 3280 kg
Max speed - 541 km/h
Climb rate - 1930 ft/min ( 579 m/min) !!!

Lagg 3 29 series:
Engine M105 PF 1210 hp - the best performance was to 2700 m
Weight - 3160
Max speed at deck - 507 km/h
Max speed - 566 km/h
Climb rate - 2563 ft/min (768 m/min) !!!

Lagg 3 66 series:
Weight - 2990 kg
Max speed at deck - 542 km/h
Max speed - 591 km/h
Climb rate - 2929 ft/min (878 m/min)!!!

Source: Squadron Singnal- Lagg Fighters in Action

Lagg 3 66 was the best series of laggs - with the best speed, climb rate and manouverbility. But still was slowier than BF and Fw 190 at high alt and with worse climb rate. Lagg 3 66 series had worse climb rate (878 m/min) even than Bf F-4 (1200 m/min) !!!! But in FB Lag 3 66 had the near the same climb rate up to 6km like Bf F-4.

alarmer
05-25-2004, 05:52 AM
Hi there.

I dont claim to be expert on Laggs or for that matter in any other plane out there.

But one thing I would like to be reinstalled to this sim and that is Plane Personalities. Many planes had strong characteristics but somehow during time and patches went on lot of em seem to be missing personality nowdays.

So I appriciate what you guys are trying to do here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jurinko
05-25-2004, 07:04 AM
The Soviet Fighter Tactics says (roughly as I remember):

"LaGG-3 compared with Me-109 is very heavy, slower, sluggish in turn and after turn it loses ability for any vertical maneuver; in a dive it loses considerable altitude, but doesn´t gain much speed; early versions tends to stall/spin so much that safe altitude for dogfight is over 1500m. German fighters realize this and draw our pilots to low-alt combats where their superiority is overwhelming; LaGG-3 must enter the fight with altitude advantage and to keep it at all cost, every moment must be used for gaining additional altitude if possible. Its durability and heavy armament classifies it as a bomber interceptor."

Sometimes I think Oleg used this characteristics (save the speed) for Fw190 instead http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (but "new" 190s are fine).
Early LaGG-3 in old IL-2 was IMO better modelled - it climbed poorly, rolled poorly and was more sluggish than the FB one.

---------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

LEXX_Luthor
05-25-2004, 10:40 AM
VVS instructor says..."boat anchor" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>These are the same factors that provide for maximum acceleration. One need not look far to find an example of this. We had the fighter LaGG-3. I flew it myself. Well, in 1941 this aircraft had greater top speed than the Yak-1. It had several indisputable advantages over the Yak in addition to its higher speed. The LaGG was more durable and harder to set on fire. Why? It was made from delta wood [del'ta-drevesina]. In addition, the LaGG was more powerfully armed. But you know what? Ask any pilot who fought in the war, "Of the two fighters, the Yak and the LaGG, which would you prefer?" He would most certainly respond "the Yak." Why? Because the Yak was a very dynamic aircraft with high responsiveness and the LaGG was a "slug," a "boat anchor." The LaGG was somewhat heavier than the Yak, which meant it was more inert. The maximum speed of the LaGG was higher because the aircraft was aerodynamically very "clean." If you "poured on the coal" it would "sweat" mightily. (Think steam locomotive-Golodnikov is of that generation-JG.) If it lost speed, it was very difficult to regain it. In order not to lose speed in combat, one needed a deft touch. I had to construct my attack, combat maneuver, or dive in such a manner as to preserve my speed. And one more thing-the LaGG required decent effort on the stick for control.

The Yak had only two advantages over the LaGG, but they were significant!-outstanding responsiveness and ease of control. The Yak could regain speed that it had lost very easily-full throttle and that was sufficient. One did not have to dive; the Yak picked up speed even when the nose was up. In addition to everything else, the Yak was considerably easier to control than the LaGG. On the one hand it was stable but on the other it reacted instantly to the slightest pressure on the stick. I only flew the LaGG-3; I never fought in it. But now, from the perspective of my combat experience, I can say that the LaGG-3 was a fair fighter. It was fully equal to the P-40 in its tactical and technical characteristics, but could contend on an equal footing with a Messer only in the hands of an experienced pilot, who really knew how to exploit its engine and was tactically skilled. An inexperienced or insufficiently trained pilot (we had many of these early in the war) in a LaGG could not in any way stand up against a Messer. He simply did not know how to take advantage of his aircraft's strong points. A Yak offered such a pilot a significantly greater chance of survival. At the same time an experienced pilot in a Yak felt himself significantly more confident and gave little thought to any speed he might lose during the engagement.

Here is another example. Between the I-16 type-28 and the Bf-109E, the Messer had a higher top speed and the combat speeds of these two aircraft were practically equal. If one compares the type-28 with the Hurricane, the Hurricane had higher maximum speed but the I-16 higher combat speed. The Hurricane was a very sluggish fighter.

You can try, but it is a difficult and thankless task to compare the combat qualities of aircraft using reference book data. There are simply too many nuances to consider.



~ http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/part4.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, the "-" formatting was bad

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Tue May 25 2004 at 09:49 AM.]

Valathar
05-25-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
"right UBS should be deleted since this version removed them to reduced wight, due of this default texture should be corrected. Also it don't had equipment to carry bombs, rockets or fuel tanks."

Apparently it wasn't always removed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All Series 4 had the right UBS removed, also original Il-2 hasn´t it (I have to check)
If you take a look at the current skin you will notice that the left UBS is "skinned" while the right apear out of site.

I was flying the Series 4 on some dogfights with ace ai on BF-109F2, F4 and G2, no problem to shoot them down, even ignoring them in frontal attack to get over a dogfight.
I try it at the Spitfire IX, it was not easy I take some bullets and my engine got damaged, but I shoot it down aswell (no frontal attack by my part but I wasn´t unable get safe of its frontal attack). Of course it was in normal AI http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bogun
05-25-2004, 12:07 PM
Early LaGG-3 is a dump track. All early LaGG's are.
Of course against stupid AI anything goes, but just try it against human opponent... I meant, of course, smart human opponent... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,

Forgotten War Home Page (http://www.forgottenskies.com/ForgottenWars/default.aspx)
http://bogun.freeservers.com/609_bogun.jpg (http://www.takeoff.to/609IAP)

"The best fighters I met in combat were the American P-51 Mustang and Russian Yak-9U. Both of those types obviously exceeded all Bf109 variants in performance, including the 'K'. The Mustang was unmatched in altitude performance, while the Yak-9U was champion in rate of climb and maneuverability."

- Walter Wolfrum (137 victories)

Valathar
05-25-2004, 12:19 PM
I had flew online and on LAN, not difference, of course a highly experience pilot can do anything with whatever you throw at him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

However I think that they maneuvrability over 300kph (under that it stall) is good, off course g effects take its tool.
But the main point is that if you check all the versions they fly equal, not difference with leading edge flaps.

BigganD
05-25-2004, 04:33 PM
i like the damage model on the lagg3s http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif one mk108 hes down :O

"Get close .. when he fills the entire windscreen ... then you can't possibly miss." Erich Hartmann