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View Full Version : All Kick needs to be balanced is really simple.



Jasado
05-26-2017, 04:41 PM
Remove the length of hitbox and tracking allowing it to hit people who backwards/side dodge right when you kick.

Remove the hitstun guaranteeing a heavy.

Give the kick some actual damage, like raider's knee.

The hitstun should be enough advantage to Shinobi that its like a 50/50 in terms of if you get kicked, you can respond, but if you try to dodge the heavy the ranged grab hits you, and if you look to counter the grab, the heavy is likely being blocked at best.

It would also allow you enough time to guard anywhere for a 33/33/33 chance to block on light spam.

These simple changes would make it a much more mutual interaction between players, and remove the guaranteed heavy - because people don't like knowing they are absolutely dead 8 seconds ahead of time after dodging it and still getting hit mid-dodge.

This also allows them room to buff Shinobi in ways that he seriously needs, like

Invincibility Frames on the start of Backflip

More responsive deflect mechanics that don't get him killed instantly during the "sparking slide" animation (just make him immediately ninja poof on deflect)

A slower decay on guard duration

The ability to Backflip out of deflect instead of just kick/slash

Being able to cancel his zone attack's third strike (or at least Backflip after the first two hits)

Being able to Front Roll after missing a ranged throw attempt

The special backflipping kick specifically out of front roll actually should wall smack (compared to Centurion getting a wall smack off of a basic ***** light punch at any time, this is totally warranted)

And the ranged grab followup from that special kick should work on a wall-stunned target

Regardless, kick should be nerfed. I say this as an intended Shinobi main. (Rep 6 atm)

Reduce the tracking so it doesn't go through dodges, give it 15 damage like Raider's knee, reduce the hitstun just a bit so followups aren't guaranteed, but the pressure is on the target to defend. Simple. Shinobi needs better quality of life buffs in other places more relevant to his character identity, so please stop tying his relevance purely into kick. It's boring and annoying for both sides, honestly.

CandleInTheDark
05-26-2017, 04:51 PM
That is probably the most balanced and reasoned suggestion I have seen. I had been in favour of simply adding recovery time on a miss but Roman made a very good point in that doing that means they have to look at everything else given the health pool, removing the guaranteed heavy but still doing damage if less might be a tradeoff that works and you are still vulnerable to trading damage if you don't time it right. I tend to think mains interested in balancing the game tend to be a good source for ideas, what they went with on peacekeeper light spam, not that I am taking credit for it, pretty sure they would have done it on their own, was something I bounced around among other ideas.

Lyskir
05-26-2017, 05:19 PM
i agree all of this but they have to also reduce the stamina drain from both dash kick and backflip same with centurion

dmg+ stamina drain from kick is too much in my oipinon

Epoqx
05-26-2017, 05:30 PM
i agree all of this but they have to also reduce the stamina drain from both dash kick and backflip same with centurion

dmg+ stamina drain from kick is too much in my oipinon

There is no damage from kick, except with feats.

All the actual UB's in game drain stamina.

CandleInTheDark
05-26-2017, 05:33 PM
There is no damage from kick, except with feats.

All the actual UB in game drain stamina.

Lyskir was talking about one of the op's suggestions, removing the guaranteed heavy but adding raider knee level damage.

Lyskir
05-26-2017, 05:51 PM
Lyskir was talking about one of the op's suggestions, removing the guaranteed heavy but adding raider knee level damage.

yep

and i did not say remove the stamina drain, just reduce it

mrmistark
05-26-2017, 06:04 PM
I would just like to say that you can backflip out of a deflect, I don't remember precisely if a light attack must be performed before said action or not, but I have done it many times.

CandleInTheDark
05-26-2017, 06:06 PM
I would just like to say that you can backflip out of a deflect, I don't remember precisely if a light attack must be performed before said action or not, but I have done it many times.

I would guess the free light you get might count.

Jasado
05-26-2017, 07:26 PM
I would just like to say that you can backflip out of a deflect, I don't remember precisely if a light attack must be performed before said action or not, but I have done it many times.

I am aware, however, there is no real reason to not allow you to do it earlier.

Sometimes that extra second is the difference between a different attackers heavy attack killing you, or a CC martial art move hitting you out of it.

That, and sometimes when you are doing the deflect and hoping it works, you can't be mashing R1, because if the deflect doesn't work, you would be dead throwing out a light when multiple targets are hitting you. The timing to do the attack followup from deflect and then the backflip is rather tight, mostly demanding you're doing the inputs as if it were guaranteed (not hard in a 1v1, but the point is to make it more feasible in multi target fights) - by the time you properly deflect, the camera angle re-orients, and in the split second you are trying to see if you should kick the target into someone else or not and if other attacks are incoming - you've lost the window to do the light attack.

This would be circumvented if you could just backflip at that moment as an option instead. It's more wondering why it isn't there in the first place, really.

kanuzira
05-26-2017, 07:43 PM
#BoycotShinobi

UbiJurassic
05-27-2017, 12:25 AM
Thanks for leaving the suggestion, Jasado! Those are all very well thought out and reasonable suggestions. Based off the early feedback from the community last week, the team has been keeping a close eye on how effective the kick is and we appreciate your input as we start looking to possibly make adjustments for our future patches.

CaptainPwnet
05-27-2017, 01:38 AM
One thing I would mention on the backflip kick after forward roll. Simply giving it a guaranteed damage option on wall stagger isn't really enough for this move to be any use. As it is right now there is no reason that move should ever hit a decent player since it is heavily telegraphed by the roll and easily dodged and the only other option out of the forward roll is the heavy. But As far as I can tell characters are able to just dodge regardless of the kick being used and then still have time to block the heavy.

Also as far as your suggested mixup alternative fix to kick followup. What's to stop them from sitting still and countering the Ranged GB, parrying the heavy, blocking/parrying a potential light? Unless I missed something your suggestion makes any followup to the kick very unsafe and almost worthless for shinobi. Unless you intended it to be more like LB's shove followup where the heavy can't be blocked but only dodged and the ranged GB will catch dodged but is counterable if you sit still. Even in this case unless you remove the CGB on ranged grab pulling the shinobi to the ground for a punish then it's still useless. Unless you make the heavy a little faster than the speed of a light so it's more in line with LB's shove followups. But again even then the ranged GB option is just far too risky for the shinobi as 1 heavy is half his health.